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On August 23 2012 20:36 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 20:34 [thork] wrote:On August 23 2012 20:21 TrainSamurai wrote:On August 23 2012 20:19 [thork] wrote:
do you remember last weeks kespa - gom agreement? i think kespa deceived gom.
kespa not playing fair as always. not caring about the game as always. kespa being kespa as always.
gom should cancel the agreement or file a lawsuit
Don't give me that weak sauce argument. Morally speaking PAY the PLAYERS some SALARY. team owners want their players compete in as many tournaments as possible. foreigner teams even pay for players flights, accomodation, etc. attending a tournament in korea does not cost a team much. kespa is not just the owner of all teams, but also the owner of the leagues broodcasting rights. your argument is invalid. tournaments don't pay for salaries, teams does. Western scene is different. KeSPA have thier own tournament to prioritise. Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 20:34 Roggay wrote:On August 23 2012 20:32 xrapture wrote:On August 23 2012 20:25 TrainSamurai wrote:This is just ANOTHER CASE OF GOM wanting to make money off KeSPA player's image without paying jackshit in comparison. On August 23 2012 20:25 Dodgin wrote:On August 23 2012 20:23 TrainSamurai wrote:On August 23 2012 20:22 Dodgin wrote:On August 23 2012 20:21 TrainSamurai wrote:On August 23 2012 20:19 [thork] wrote:
do you remember last weeks kespa - gom agreement? i think kespa deceived gom.
kespa not playing fair as always. not caring about the game as always. kespa being kespa as always.
gom should cancel the agreement or file a lawsuit
Don't give me that weak sauce argument. Morally speaking PAY the PLAYERS some SALARY. Er, they get paid for participating in GSL. Does that not count? Every single player in each GSL season gets paid. Every KeSPA player gets housing and food supplied. They don't always make it into the OSL but KeSPA still gives some pittance. GOM must pay ALL of them SOMETHING. GOM is just a tournament organizer though, it's not up to them to give players salary. That's what the teams are for. If you're talking about an appearance fee to play in GSL then that's a lot different than salary. Maybe Flash does deserve an appearance fee but as far as I know WCG never paid him to be in WCG and he did that willingly. BINGO. They all deserve a fee for even playing. We revolted under KeSPA to get those fees. Yea, I don't know why Gom expects Kespa players to play in their amateur league without compensation. That's like expecting Lebron James to make an appearance at a college practice for free. Except their "amateur" league is the equivalent of the NBA right now... right? How does that detract from the main point. Either give PAID KeSPA player an appearance fee or stop sulking.
It is one scene. The SC2 scene. If Kespa kills off the "Western" scene with their douchebaggery then the Korean scene wont work out either 
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Well, i hope GSL players beat the hell out of kespa players from now on. And I'm staying with GOM whatever happens!
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Austria24422 Posts
On August 23 2012 20:36 Salazarz wrote:
Okay, all the stupidity of this thread aside, why are people saying shit like "Fuck you KeSPA SC2 was good enough without your players, we don't need you!!!" all the while whining about KeSPA players not joining this round of GSL qualifiers? How the hell does that add up?
I can 'somewhat' understand if someone is frustrated that they can't see their favourite players in GSL, but if you DON'T CARE about these players, what does it matter to you if they don't play?
That's not what it's about to me. It's about the big "Fuck you!" statement this appears to be. GOM was willing to cooperate (and did), people were complaining about the animosity between KeSPA and GSL players, so what is the best possible response from KeSPA's side? Exactly the opposite of what they did.
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How the hell is not having players participate in 4 or more tournaments at the same time, while playing 2 games at the same time, while not even really feeling confident about their ability in the 'main' game, a bad thing for viewers? You should be glad the players have more opportunities to prepare for the one tournament they WILL play in, because that WILL increase the quality of games - seems like respecting viewer interests well enough for me.
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On August 23 2012 20:32 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 20:30 aristarchus wrote:On August 23 2012 20:24 Severedevil wrote:On August 23 2012 20:15 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 23 2012 20:14 TrainSamurai wrote:
I can't believe you sc2 fans. If GOM wants Flash to play in thier shitty league then they should cough up some dough for the KeSPA salaries. Same for every qualifier. Uh, the point is that Flash should be able to play where he wants without KeSPa telling him where he has to play. Yeah, and I'll tell my employer where and when I feel like working; contracts be damned. My boss is not the boss of me! Also, it is not a shitty league, whether you like it or not, they have done a lot for the scene and the fans. If you really want to compare GOM's contribution to Starcraft against KESPA's... The problem is not that Flash's employer can tell him what to do. The problem is that Kespa is a monopolistic organization of many different teams. If Liquid tells Hero he needs to focus on one tournament over another, no one has a problem with that. If MLG bought Liquid, EG, Quantic, Mouz, and Complexity and then said that those players would not be participating in any tournament except MLG, everyone would have a problem with that. That's what's happening here. No one should own more than one team. No one should run both a team and tournaments. Those are the rules that will make the scene function well. GOM makes money off subscriptions. They either cough up some money or they should stop being so passive aggressive unless they're hell bent on being an amateur league. This is like the EPL being furious @ the barcelonna CEO for not lending MC Messi.
Its more like Champion's League being disappointed at EPL not attending because of "scheduling conflict."
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On August 23 2012 20:39 Sif_ wrote:
Well, i hope GSL players beat the hell out of kespa players from now on. And I'm staying with GOM whatever happens!
Seconded Although I feel bad for the Kespa players since I bet they want to participate and they want to compete and go to other tournaments. I wouldn't blame them. But yah.. If Kespa pulls shit I wont watch their matches even if it is my favorite players
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On August 23 2012 20:25 TrainSamurai wrote:This is just ANOTHER CASE OF GOM wanting to make money off KeSPA player's image without paying jackshit in comparison. Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 20:25 Dodgin wrote:On August 23 2012 20:23 TrainSamurai wrote:On August 23 2012 20:22 Dodgin wrote:On August 23 2012 20:21 TrainSamurai wrote:On August 23 2012 20:19 [thork] wrote:
do you remember last weeks kespa - gom agreement? i think kespa deceived gom.
kespa not playing fair as always. not caring about the game as always. kespa being kespa as always.
gom should cancel the agreement or file a lawsuit
Don't give me that weak sauce argument. Morally speaking PAY the PLAYERS some SALARY. Er, they get paid for participating in GSL. Does that not count? Every single player in each GSL season gets paid. Every KeSPA player gets housing and food supplied. They don't always make it into the OSL but KeSPA still gives some pittance. GOM must pay ALL of them SOMETHING. GOM is just a tournament organizer though, it's not up to them to give players salary. That's what the teams are for. If you're talking about an appearance fee to play in GSL then that's a lot different than salary. Maybe Flash does deserve an appearance fee but as far as I know WCG never paid him to be in WCG and he did that willingly. BINGO. They all deserve a fee for even playing. We revolted under KeSPA to get those fees.
why are you still trolling? and where is this "WE" coming from?
You should go comment in LOL threads! SC2 is clearly not the game you play why come in an sc2 thread just to shit on people?
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Seems to me that KESPA are just positioning themselves so that their own SC2 tournaments become rivals to GSL. GSL loses a lot of it's significance and importance if KESPA runs competing SC2 tournaments that are a lot more prestigious and popular (within Korea).
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On August 23 2012 20:40 Salazarz wrote:
How the hell is not having players participate in 4 or more tournaments at the same time, while playing 2 games at the same time, while not even really feeling confident about their ability in the 'main' game, a bad thing for viewers? You should be glad the players have more opportunities to prepare for the one tournament they WILL play in, because that WILL increase the quality of games - seems like respecting viewer interests well enough for me.
Viewers want them in the GSL. Viewers don't want Kespa and Gom to come to a conflict. If this is what is happening then they are only looking after their own interests.
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Every single time GSL players travel to foreign tournaments, the quality of their games decreases, even if slightly - and they have far more experience travelling and playing in different formats than KeSPA players do, nevermind having more experience with SC2 in general. It's seriously mind-boggling how you all don't realize how difficult it would be for KeSPA players to train efficiently for both OSL, GSL, and PL at the same time right now, and then some whine about them also not going to MLG. Seriously, I don't even.
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On August 23 2012 20:39 ramask2 wrote:
The whole point is that Kespa is trying to down-grade GSL to an 'amateur' league, while making itself the 'premiere' league. Shrewd business move made with no viewer interest in mind. That's why people are pissed off. Personally I'm just worry that the English casting quality is going to decrease.
its important to note that no one is, or should be, against kespa trying to make themself the premier league. If they come out with better viewing experience, better prizes and what not while maintaining a good relationship with GOM and not backstabbing and breaking contracts thats good.
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On August 23 2012 20:40 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 20:39 Sif_ wrote:
Well, i hope GSL players beat the hell out of kespa players from now on. And I'm staying with GOM whatever happens! Seconded Although I feel bad for the Kespa players since I bet they want to participate and they want to compete and go to other tournaments. I wouldn't blame them. But yah.. If Kespa pulls shit I wont watch their matches even if it is my favorite players
Indeed. Though I don't doubt this mess still has a ways to go, from what I've gathered so far the players wanted to play and they were overruled from above. I wouldn't think this was nearly so much a dick move if they hadn't already locked up the Federation players into the OSL before turning around and refusing to join the GSL.
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Maybe someone could clue me in, but what exactly have the KeSPA players accomplished in SC2 that warrants any sort of appearance fee ?
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On August 23 2012 18:05 eleaf wrote:
The reason is pretty simple actually.
HOTS will be released in next year, which is 'soon'. Well, it has a higher chance of real 'soon' instead of blizzard 'soon' according to latest information.
When HOTS is live, KeSPA players will have more 'equal' chance with GSL players since the game strategy will go through a huge revolution. In this revolution, KeSPA players may catch the level of GSL players very fast.
Currently KeSPA players is good, they can win games against GSL players. But in real GSL season battle, they have little chance to make it to code S. Most will be eliminated by code A qualifier, some left will only past 1-2 round of code A at most. Remember the case when foreigners (idra, huk, naniwa, thorzain) win a lot of games against GSL players in foreign tournaments, after coming to the GSL studio for a real GSL season, they hardly win any game. This is the brutal part of GSL. Players are just so focused and so prepared in real season, they are so good.
There is only 1 GSL season left for this year. KeSPA want to delay as much as possible in WOL tournaments and maybe this is the last WOL GSL tourment left. Without participation, most ppl (Korean ppl mainly) may have a high chance still believe KeSPA players are shining stars and superior to GSL players.
Basically, what KeSPA need is delay the participation using any kind of excuse until the HOTS tournament is live. Trying to keep their players marketing value. Cant blame them for doing so. But it's really a dick move and hurts gomtv a lot.
Also I believe there's another reason at hand as well. For WCS, all the KeSPA players were eliminated which is not a good thing in the eyes of fans. If this didn't happen, and WCS Korea ended up being represented by a KeSPA player, I think that things would have been different.
I could be wrong but I think it's also a case of losing a bit of face, hence they pull out, giving more time for the KeSPA players to equalize the skill gap and not repeat this scenario.
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competition is healthy step up your game GOM and stop QQ
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France9034 Posts
I'm a bit disappointed as a fan (though I don't pretend to know the very low-level implications of all of this), and especially because we do see GOM players in the OSL....
Why not have Kespa players in GSL then... ?
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Austria24422 Posts
On August 23 2012 20:38 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 20:38 achan1058 wrote:On August 23 2012 20:36 Salazarz wrote:
Okay, all the stupidity of this thread aside, why are people saying shit like "Fuck you KeSPA SC2 was good enough without your players, we don't need you!!!" all the while whining about KeSPA players not joining this round of GSL qualifiers? How the hell does that add up?
I can 'somewhat' understand if someone is frustrated that they can't see their favourite players in GSL, but if you DON'T CARE about these players, what does it matter to you if they don't play? Because it's clear KeSPA is trynig to pull an anti-competitive move, as I have said so many times before. They killed Gom once, and they might do it again. How are they going to do that, again? We're going under the assumption that KeSPA teams / players aren't really interesting or needed for viewers. So, what exactly is KeSPA going to do?
It's so simple that I really don't get how people don't see it. What is KeSPA trying here?
- GOM cooperated and now GSL players play in a KeSPA tournament.
- They lock their players in so they can't play in GSL.
- KeSPA knows that these BW aces still have the most fans in Korea.
- GSL players have to go to a KeSPA organized league to compete with KeSPA players and maybe get a slice of the juice fan-cake.
- Everybody will want that fame.
- Everybody will play in KeSPA leagues.
- GOM will die.
This is KeSPA's master plan.
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On August 23 2012 20:42 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 18:05 eleaf wrote:
The reason is pretty simple actually.
HOTS will be released in next year, which is 'soon'. Well, it has a higher chance of real 'soon' instead of blizzard 'soon' according to latest information.
When HOTS is live, KeSPA players will have more 'equal' chance with GSL players since the game strategy will go through a huge revolution. In this revolution, KeSPA players may catch the level of GSL players very fast.
Currently KeSPA players is good, they can win games against GSL players. But in real GSL season battle, they have little chance to make it to code S. Most will be eliminated by code A qualifier, some left will only past 1-2 round of code A at most. Remember the case when foreigners (idra, huk, naniwa, thorzain) win a lot of games against GSL players in foreign tournaments, after coming to the GSL studio for a real GSL season, they hardly win any game. This is the brutal part of GSL. Players are just so focused and so prepared in real season, they are so good.
There is only 1 GSL season left for this year. KeSPA want to delay as much as possible in WOL tournaments and maybe this is the last WOL GSL tourment left. Without participation, most ppl (Korean ppl mainly) may have a high chance still believe KeSPA players are shining stars and superior to GSL players.
Basically, what KeSPA need is delay the participation using any kind of excuse until the HOTS tournament is live. Trying to keep their players marketing value. Cant blame them for doing so. But it's really a dick move and hurts gomtv a lot. Also I believe there's another reason at hand as well. For WCS, all the KeSPA players were eliminated which is not a good thing in the eyes of fans. If this didn't happen, and WCS Korea ended up being represented by a KeSPA player, I think that things would have been different. I could be wrong but I think it's also a case of losing a bit of face, hence they pull out, giving more time for the KeSPA players to equalize the skill gap and not repeat this scenario.
They were not eliminated. They already won they spots in Asian WCS
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Well I could see how kespa would be kinda bitter about blizzard selling the exclusive right to broadcast sc to GOM for ONE DOLLAR rofl.
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On August 23 2012 20:17 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 19:52 Talin wrote:On August 23 2012 19:06 JustPassingBy wrote:On August 23 2012 19:04 Talin wrote:On August 23 2012 18:59 JustPassingBy wrote:On August 23 2012 18:55 Talin wrote:
That seems like a really dodgy press release with a dodgy tone. It's almost as if GOM is intentionally trying to stir up anger/pressure at Kespa. Oh wait, that's exactly what it is.
As for kespa making the decision, people need to understand that this is perfectly normal. Most importantly, a Kespa decision means that it's a joint team decision.
While I'm sure that there are individual players who would like to compete in the GSL, their time and effort playing Starcraft is committed entirely to their teams. And these are not western teams that are more like proxy sponsors than anything else - there is a fixed structure in how the players train, how much they train and what they train for. They don't get to just do whatever they feel like with their time.
In a nutshell, the teams decide what they want to get involved in (which was the case here). The actual players and coaching staff are only members of the team, they're not individual entities. So what you are saying is because already 32 players of all the teams together participate in the OSL, the other remaining players do not get to participate in any participate in any individual league at all? Sounds legit. All irony aside, whoever made the decision does not make the decision better for the players. I have NO idea what you're saying you're thinking I'm saying as that sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. -_- The remaining players spend their time preparing for Proleague and being practice partners for players who are in the OSL, then preparing for the next qualifiers etc. There is plenty for them to do with their time, if that was your concern. I just think that it is disgusting that their teams prohibit them from participating in an individual league. If they don't want to participate, then they don't have to. But at least allow the players who want to participate to do what they want. These teams function like teams. Players can't just go play whatever tournament they feel like, because by doing that, they would be spending TIME preparing for and playing in that tournament. The TIME that they're being PAID to spend differently - they're being paid to be team members and train and play for their team. That is their job. They don't get to do whatever they want on their job during work hours, nobody does. There is nothing disgusting about that, it's perfectly natural, and it's how actual sports teams function everywhere. Everywhere. The problem here is that a lot of people are applying the western esports "team" logic to these teams and are then confounded by how the Kespa teams don't fit into that same frame. But these organizations are fundamentally different in every single way. Kespa teams are sports teams. Western teams (and GOM teams in the last year and a half) are merely marketing companies and (relative to players) some weird cross between an agency and a sponsor. A player's job on a western team is to bring exposure to the team and its sponsors. A player's job on a Kespa team is to listen to his coaches, follow the training regimen and prepare for games he's told to prepare for. Some teams have a more loose structure than the others, but obviously no team will let their players do whatever they want and play in any league they want and still pay them salaries. No, I do find it disgusting if a team prohibits a player from participating in an individual event, just because he is a practise partner of somebody who participates another individual event. I have no problem with listening to his coaches, following the training regimen and prepare for the games he's told to prepare for, as long as the players have games to prepare for. But what happens now is that the coaches sacrifice the potential individual career of some players just so that they can concentrate on improving another player. In my opinion, a coach should care for all players on his team equally and not pull something like that. Besides, it's not as if all players of a team suddenly qualify and there are no training partners left. If the Kespa teams are as big as I heard they are, with A-team and B-team, there will always be enough training partners left.
There are always games to prepare for. There is still Proleague which will be the priority for most teams that make the playoffs. Also don't forget that these players still have to work hard on transitioning to SC2 and catching up with the strategies, metagame, figuring out the matchups, etc. These players are used to having a lot of "free" training time in general. You're almost certainly never going to see a scenario where a Kespa player lives on MC or Huk's schedule (fly to a different tournament every weekend, play GSL in between kind of thing).
And it's pretty normal for team members to work for their teammates in the individual leagues once they're eliminated themselves. The more and the higher quality players you have to work with you, the better. This doesn't mean that the coaches don't care about all their players, it just means that they are utilizing team resources wisely, while at the same time trying to develop the players to be the best they can be. Taking time to compete in GSL doesn't seem to contribute much to either cause (at this point).
The players themselves know what being on a pro team entails and I'm sure it feels perfectly normal and natural to them. If not, they can always leave, but somehow I doubt that will be happening a lot. They know that when it comes to training and skill level, Kespa teams are the best (and only) place to be.
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EPT
