|
On August 21 2012 04:44 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 04:39 VPVanek wrote:
Well, I guess since two of the best players in the world (Taeja , MVP) are doing well, that means Terran is fine.
I don't really understand how they can like the flow of TvZ these days, all it is, essentially is a greed fest. My biggest problem with how these changes (patch and upcoming HoTS) is the fact that the game is becoming less fun to watch as a spectator. I play Protoss, but I absolutely loved watching TvZ. Since the patch it has become far less entertaining to spectate. The new Protoss Mothership Core to me seems to do the same thing as the buffed queen. It makes early aggression really hard, and while this should improve PvP it will turn PvZ and PvT into more of a snoozefest. A lot of people already hate watching those MUs (I personally enjoy PvZ quite a bit - although I hated the period where Zerg was simply I MAEK ROACH - a viable, but boring style), and making greedy early strategies is going to make it even more boring.
I don't think so. Mass recall and more chrono definitely have improved the early aggression as well.
even after patch, TvZ has pretty much remained the same except we don't have as much different types of hellion all in and less roaches baneling ling all in
the overall game trend is still the same.
|
I felt actual physical pain while reading David Kim's comment about the carrier and the tempest. 
|
Zergs are struggling...
|
HOTS: No rush 20 minutes.
Still not impressed, though I don't know what it will take to sway my opinion when every HOTS update just reinforces my current criticisms, perhaps I'm too biased. Tempest fixing PvP seems pretty farfetched, by the time you tech to them you'll have died to a colossus push. It may have a niche use in the late game, but even if it is used I don't see how it can magically transform the matchup. It's amazing how Blizzard still hasn't swallowed their pride and just removed the colossus, as it creates way more problems than it solves, and rather than trying to fix lategame pvp in its current state (and by that I mean 2 years) they're just going to pray it goes away with the Tempest.
Maybe the MC can solve some of the early game issues, but it seems like such a cop-out from Blizzard. Rather than give Protoss the raw potential and firepower to hold early aggression, they're given a "unit" with 13 range and 60 damage to basically turn every PvX matchup into what ZvX is at the moment.
The units' roles are too predetermined and narrow. If you want to harass, make an oracle - that's all it does. If you want to defend, make a MC. There's no thought behind it, and as a result I can't see the gameplay being exciting in the slightest, whether it's MVP playing or a gold league player. The units are too one-dimensional to be used in interesting ways and combinations; it's not a balance critique, but one of design. Even as a Terran player I'm disappointed that we're being handed straight counters. Zealots a problem? Here, a-move some battle hellions and warhounds.
The game should be about strategy - and strategy isn't picking rock when I spot my opponent has thrown scissors, which is exactly what HOTS seems to be moving toward. Give us units that have potential to be used throughout all parts of the game, and create opportunities rather than remove them. It all started with fungal, force field and concussive shell - limiting your opponent is dull both as a player and a spectator - and so further limiting your opponent by creating an I-protect-your-base-for-10-minutes "unit" will only worsen the already stale early game. Hell, I don't mean to rant, but I abhore having to listen to casters trade stories for 5-10 minutes because the only thing happening in the game is both players trying to out-greed eachother...
Also, my token Terran QQ: I can't wait to play against the new zerg lategame with swarm hosts, infestors, broodlords and vipers. How abduct was even considered in the first place is beyond reason.
|
Am I crazy, but why would you sink 1200/1200 and 24 supply into 4 tempests (to 1 shot a BL) when you can just slowly move your m-core closer, then turn on purifier for a range 13, 60dmg siege weapon?
|
On August 21 2012 09:16 RavenLoud wrote:I felt actual physical pain while reading David Kim's comment about the carrier and the tempest.
I threw up a little in my mouth when reading David Kim's comment 
Sometimes I feel like I'm taking crazy pills
|
You know what would do wonders to Protoss gameplay? Chargelots that can be microed in a way similar to speedlings. Right now charge is something that is used at enemy units. It could still work that way if it was set to autocast, but if it was cast manually, it would just give the zealot a big speed buff for, say, 5 in-game seconds, and it could be moved however the player likes. It would allow Protoss players to set up efficient flanks. This would break up the Protoss deathball, particularly when dealing with the new Terran mech deathball (send the zealots to the side where there are fewest battlehellions, and blink the stalkers on the side with the most battlehellions).
|
On August 21 2012 09:41 Empirimancer wrote:
You know what would do wonders to Protoss gameplay? Chargelots that can be microed in a way similar to speedlings. Right now charge is something that is used at enemy units. It could still work that way if it was set to autocast, but if it was cast manually, it would just give the zealot a big speed buff for, say, 5 in-game seconds, and it could be moved however the player likes. It would allow Protoss players to set up efficient flanks. This would break up the Protoss deathball, particularly when dealing with the new Terran mech deathball (send the zealots to the side where there are fewest battlehellions, and blink the stalkers on the side with the most battlehellions).
I agree wholeheartedly, IMO charge should not have been autocast. To compensate, the permanent speed increase granted by the upgrade could be a little bit higher (3.0 instead of 2.75 speed after upgrade), but you have to target the charge yourself.
However, this'll never happen because everyone's too used to 1a autocast. It's too late to change that now, it should have been done in the beta.
|
Excellent job. That was very good work.
|
On August 21 2012 09:31 Kodak wrote:
HOTS: No rush 20 minutes.
Still not impressed, though I don't know what it will take to sway my opinion when every HOTS update just reinforces my current criticisms, perhaps I'm too biased. Tempest fixing PvP seems pretty farfetched, by the time you tech to them you'll have died to a colossus push. It may have a niche use in the late game, but even if it is used I don't see how it can magically transform the matchup. It's amazing how Blizzard still hasn't swallowed theire pride and just removed the colossus, as it creates way more problems than it solves, and rather than trying to fix lategame pvp in its current state (and by that I mean 2 years) they're just going to pray it goes away with the Tempest.
Maybe the MC can solve some of the early game issues, but it seems like such a cop-out from Blizzard. Rather than give Protoss the raw potential and firepower to hold early aggression, they're given a "unit" with 13 range and 60 damage to basically turn every PvX matchup into what ZvX is at the moment.
The units' roles are too predetermined and narrow. If you want to harass, make an oracle - that's all it does. If you want to defend, make a MC. There's no thought behind it, and as a result I can't see the gameplay being exciting in the slightest, whether it's MVP playing or a gold league player. The units are too one-dimensional to be used in interesting ways and combinations; it's not a balance critique, but one of design. Even as a Terran player I'm disappointed that we're being handed straight counters. Zealots a problem? Here, a-move some battle hellions and warhounds.
The game should be about strategy - and strategy isn't picking rock when I spot my opponent has thrown scissors, which is exactly what HOTS seems to be moving toward. Give us units that have potential to be used throughout all parts of the game, and create opportunities rather than remove them. It all started with fungal, force field and concussive shell - limiting your opponent is dull both as a player and a spectator - and so further limiting your opponent by creating an I-protect-your-base-for-10-minutes "unit" will only worsen the already stale early game. Hell, I don't mean to rant, but I abhore having to listen to casters trade stories for 5-10 minutes because the only thing happening in the game is both players trying to out-greed eachother...
Also, my token Terran QQ: I can't wait to play against the new zerg lategame with swarm hosts, infestors, broodlords and vipers. How abduct was even considered in the first place is beyond reason.
Hey, they nerfed everything that could kill you mid-game and balanced the game around 200-200 deathball. What else do you expect from these clowns?
|
On August 21 2012 09:31 Kodak wrote:
HOTS: No rush 20 minutes.
Still not impressed, though I don't know what it will take to sway my opinion when every HOTS update just reinforces my current criticisms, perhaps I'm too biased. Tempest fixing PvP seems pretty farfetched, by the time you tech to them you'll have died to a colossus push. It may have a niche use in the late game, but even if it is used I don't see how it can magically transform the matchup. It's amazing how Blizzard still hasn't swallowed theire pride and just removed the colossus, as it creates way more problems than it solves, and rather than trying to fix lategame pvp in its current state (and by that I mean 2 years) they're just going to pray it goes away with the Tempest.
Maybe the MC can solve some of the early game issues, but it seems like such a cop-out from Blizzard. Rather than give Protoss the raw potential and firepower to hold early aggression, they're given a "unit" with 13 range and 60 damage to basically turn every PvX matchup into what ZvX is at the moment.
The units' roles are too predetermined and narrow. If you want to harass, make an oracle - that's all it does. If you want to defend, make a MC. There's no thought behind it, and as a result I can't see the gameplay being exciting in the slightest, whether it's MVP playing or a gold league player. The units are too one-dimensional to be used in interesting ways and combinations; it's not a balance critique, but one of design. Even as a Terran player I'm disappointed that we're being handed straight counters. Zealots a problem? Here, a-move some battle hellions and warhounds.
The game should be about strategy - and strategy isn't picking rock when I spot my opponent has thrown scissors, which is exactly what HOTS seems to be moving toward. Give us units that have potential to be used throughout all parts of the game, and create opportunities rather than remove them. It all started with fungal, force field and concussive shell - limiting your opponent is dull both as a player and a spectator - and so further limiting your opponent by creating an I-protect-your-base-for-10-minutes "unit" will only worsen the already stale early game. Hell, I don't mean to rant, but I abhore having to listen to casters trade stories for 5-10 minutes because the only thing happening in the game is both players trying to out-greed eachother...
Also, my token Terran QQ: I can't wait to play against the new zerg lategame with swarm hosts, infestors, broodlords and vipers. How abduct was even considered in the first place is beyond reason.
Took the words out of my mouth.
|
need less late game, more early game pushes
|
On August 21 2012 02:40 Noocta wrote:
Nice interview ! Learned a few new things, that's cool.
I'm a bit afraid of Mothership core rush with the canon ability tho xD
Not knowming what the questions are is a bit weird tho
is so slow and cannon only last 15 seconds or so and costs energy . and mothership core has ~400 hp . will never be possible such a rush .
|
On August 21 2012 10:24 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 02:40 Noocta wrote:
Nice interview ! Learned a few new things, that's cool.
I'm a bit afraid of Mothership core rush with the canon ability tho xD
Not knowming what the questions are is a bit weird tho is so slow and cannon only last 15 seconds or so and costs energy . and mothership core has ~400 hp . will never be possible such a rush .
I can see it happening in a TL Attack 
|
Tempest a very Strategic unit AKA it's a gimmicky unit like most of the Protoss arsenal and will only work if your opponents lets it work. I am not happy with The Tempest if you can't tell from trying Hots custom map, the unit just feels horrible.
|
Can't wait for HotS to come out. Also, just get rid of the Carrier, it's a rubbish unit and the only reason people want it to stay is nostalgia; just do what's best for the game and replace it with a useful unit in the Tempest.
|
On August 21 2012 09:31 Kodak wrote:
Tempest fixing PvP seems pretty farfetched, by the time you tech to them you'll have died to a colossus push. It may have a niche use in the late game, but even if it is used I don't see how it can magically transform the matchup. It's amazing how Blizzard still hasn't swallowed theire pride and just removed the colossus, as it creates way more problems than it solves, and rather than trying to fix lategame pvp in its current state (and by that I mean 2 years) they're just going to pray it goes away with the Tempest.
It seems pretty reasonable to me to think giving Protoss air options will help with colossus wars. The colossus has a powerful AoE attack to ground, making it so that once the colossus count gets big enough, almost nothing can stop it. In both the other matchups, Zergs and Terrans solve this problem by attacking colossi from the air. Protoss can't do this as well because they don't have very good air options, so their only option is to make a comparable number of colossus. The Tempest can snipe colossi from afar, making it a potential answer to the colossus problem.
Maybe the MC can solve some of the early game issues, but it seems like such a cop-out from Blizzard. Rather than give Protoss the raw potential and firepower to hold early aggression, they're given a "unit" with 13 range and 60 damage to basically turn every PvX matchup into what ZvX is at the moment.
Raw potential and firepower are what caused the early-game problems with PvP. 4gate is such a powerful build that you need to either a) 4gate yourself, or b) use defenders' advantage to hold it off. Protoss has fairly little in the way of defender's advantage, so for a long time 4gate vs. 4gate reigned supreme. Then they made the ramp change to give more defender's advantage, which "fixed" PvP, but more Protoss defender's advantage will help make economic play in the matchup possible.
It's not like you can never attack a Protoss any more. Mothership Core energy will be a scarce resource, and if you force him to use Purify, that's good damage right there. Then once he does you can back up and attack again when it wears off, or you can go attack another base, or you can go home satisfied with forcing him to waste that energy.
The units' roles are too predetermined and narrow. If you want to harass, make an oracle - that's all it does. If you want to defend, make a MC. There's no thought behind it, and as a result I can't see the gameplay being exciting in the slightest, whether it's MVP playing or a gold league player. The units are too one-dimensional to be used in interesting ways and combinations; it's not a balance critique, but one of design. Even as a Terran player I'm disappointed that we're being handed straight counters. Zealots a problem? Here, a-move some battle hellions and warhounds.
I'm not sure that criticism is all that, well, true. The oracle is used primarily to harass, just like the mutalisk or phoenix or reaper or anything else fast, but 1) it does so in an interesting way, and 2) it has other uses. One of its spells is for scouting purposes, which is different from harass. And cloak is much more useful where your army is.
For that matter the Mothership Core isn't all that one-dimensional. If you want to defend, use Purify. If you want to get aggressive, supercharge your spellcasters with energy and charge forward, or supercharge your chrono boost and do insane gateway aggression. Or catch your opponent out of position, snipe some important structures or a base or something, and mass recall out when his army shows up. The mothership core and oracle both give you a variety of dimensions for interacting with the game, which is exactly the game design we like about RTS.
The game should be about strategy - and strategy isn't picking rock when I spot my opponent has thrown scissors, which is exactly what HOTS seems to be moving toward. Give us units that have potential to be used throughout all parts of the game, and create opportunities rather than remove them. It all started with fungal, force field and concussive shell - limiting your opponent is dull both as a player and a spectator - and so further limiting your opponent by creating an I-protect-your-base-for-10-minutes "unit" will only worsen the already stale early game. Hell, I don't mean to rant, but I abhore having to listen to casters trade stories for 5-10 minutes because the only thing happening in the game is both players trying to out-greed eachother...
Also, my token Terran QQ: I can't wait to play against the new zerg lategame with swarm hosts, infestors, broodlords and vipers. How abduct was even considered in the first place is beyond reason.
HotS should have interesting new cheeses along with the new units. Zergs get creep dropping at evolution chamber tech now, which means a lot of spine crawler rushes will be possible (maybe even powerful enough to crush FFE). New reapers may have what it takes to make reaper aggression powerful again, and if not, Blizz may try something else in beta since they're committed to trying to make the reaper viable. Since the Mothership Core is mobile now, Protoss will always have the option to bring it along with an attack, which will make that attack much more powerful, but will also remove the power to retreat and make it very all-in. In other words, there will be plenty of possible early aggression if that's what you're into.
The only reason pros don't do so much 1-base or 2-base aggression any more is because early aggression is and has to be fully defendable if your opponent defends correctly (if some one-base build reliably killed any and all fast expands, that would be less than ideal game design a la PvP), which means that an attack like that can win, but you are relying on your opponent messing up. Pros prefer to rely on their own skill, rather than their opponents ineptitude. Sorry if that makes games unenjoyable to you, but pros still cheese plenty for mindgame purposes, so as long as you're watching Bo5's or Bo7's you should be able to enjoy the Starcraft scene well enough.
As a fellow Terran I agree that the viper makes Zerg late game look intimidating (I don't think the swarm host will contribute much to the broodlord-infestor composition). But pre-beta, it's a little early to be calling imbalanced. Battlecruisers are getting a big damage buff, and maybe that will make Sky Terran late-game viable. If it's imbalanced Blizz will try to fix it, but we should probably wait to see if it's actually imbalanced before QQing up a storm over units that haven't even entered beta.
|
Proxy nexus Mothership Core rush should be a pretty hilarious new cheese
|
Every unit Blizzard adds just seems to be so...idk narrowly useful? Protoss is weak early-game? Here let's give them a new unit that only allows for super defensive strats. Battle hellion, war-hound, tempests are all used to counter. If Blizzard truly wants an entertaining game, do it as Orb suggested once, and make it more into BW, where you weren't forced to make X unit to counter X unit, in BW you could make anything and with macro and strategy, make it work.
And I will truly sympathize with Protoss in HotS. Without Mothership + Vortex, and with carriers in jeopardy, what are we going to see now in late-game PvZ? Mass tempests? Vipers and their ensnare or whatever ability will make Collosi pushes so much harder to carry through.
|
On August 21 2012 11:01 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Proxy nexus Mothership Core rush should be a pretty hilarious new cheese
Not anymore, the Mship Core is no longer tethered to the nexus, and being a slow moving unit, it will be too vulnerable to leave your base on its own.
On August 21 2012 11:17 aviator116 wrote:
Every unit Blizzard adds just seems to be so...idk narrowly useful? Protoss is weak early-game? Here let's give them a new unit that only allows for super defensive strats. Battle hellion, war-hound, tempests are all used to counter. If Blizzard truly wants an entertaining game, do it as Orb suggested once, and make it more into BW, where you weren't forced to make X unit to counter X unit, in BW you could make anything and with macro and strategy, make it work.
And I will truly sympathize with Protoss in HotS. Without Mothership + Vortex, and with carriers in jeopardy, what are we going to see now in late-game PvZ? Mass tempests? Vipers and their ensnare or whatever ability will make Collosi pushes so much harder to carry through.
I don't see what you're so worried about in the second paragraph. Mship + Vortex is not the one strat Protoss relies on. Also why mass Tempests? People need to lose the "mass mentality" as I like to call it.
To answer this part of your question "with carriers in jeopardy, what are we going to see now in late-game PvZ"
Let's back up for a second, who masses carriers vs late game Zerg? You should be rejoicing with the new Tempest, being able to snipe Brood Lords and Infestors from afar and fighting on your terms. The power of Tempests is near gamebreaking in its ability to force your opponent to do something. The siegebreaking potential this unit has is amazing, and a Carrier could never fulfill this role.
Also about Vipers and abduct, the zerg has to risk losing the viper because the colossus outranges abduct and it can be sniped by stalkers.
Abduct has the same range as Neural Parasite, 7. Abduct is not a gamebreaking ability, it's an ability that capitalizes on the enemy making a mistake and letting his units stray too far. If that happens, then the zerg can take the unit without risk of losing the viper, but the trade off is that your colossus is still yours, free from neural parasite!
A truly evil combo would be Abduct + Neural
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
