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On August 11 2012 23:36 Topdoller wrote:
That fact it stops repair is amazing, the number of times i have seen a Zerg throw half an army away on PF due to repair i have lost count.
Very underused spell in my opinion
Apart from that fact being wrong :D
All I can say is that there's so much more other important stuff to do than that, that you often don't really have the time for it or think about it.
Also it takes quite some time before an overseer has 125 energy, so you will rarely ever actively try to go for contamination. It's more of a "oh I'm near/in your base anyways with that overseer and happen to have enough energy, might as well use it for that!"
Btw. spawning 2-3 changelings for some more scouting can be helpful too (and is less dangerous for your overseer).
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I would prefer to have the overseer over the oracle, being able to stop the robo from building is huge, or stopping a nexus from making a mothership.
It is one of the most underused abilities in the gamea long with the thors ability and ravens abilities.
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I just had time to skip through the first and the last two pages, but one of the main arguments against specifically including contamidate in your gameplan (instead of just using it when the opportunity comes up suprisingly, which is what most people do) didn't come up there, so here it is:
Overseers without speed upgrade are extremly easy to snipe - Marines, Stalkers and Vikings are pretty much always near at the stages of the game where contaminating big upgrades may still be viable. Waiting for energy and being nearly sure that you'll lose 150/50 and 8 supply to delay something for 30 seconds just isn't worth the effort/cost.
Maybe they should be used more in ZvZ, yeah, but I actually think the last contaminate nerf was aiming exactly at that - in addition to the tendency to be on 4 hatches in a time when you would have had 2 hatches in the meta 6 month ago, overseer harass ist kind of a nice gimmick, but really nothing you are able to make a main part of your strategy.
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I have used contaminate in lots of my games, especially against Z, but being in Gold league, it often isn' t my slow APM...
If I was faster and practiced at it I think it could become a VERY viable skill. The thing is that Overseers don't create supply so you have to get another Overlord to replace them, and the cost becomes 150/50
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Contaminate is like the best thing ever to fight mech. Gives you sooooo much time until those thors come out to defend the third, which makes me able to level the base with a mass roach attack.
In ZvP they are good against Collosus builds but in the lategame they would probably be very strong as well if you mass them high enough.
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i feel that the spell is greatly underused, but most players with decent gameplay think of other stuff as more important. Apart from the ressources, directing and using contaminate takes time, so why do it if you think better macro or creepspread or unit positioning will be more rewarding? However i think, it will become more of a factor, as players have more time to do small stuff when mechanics improve.
i feel the usage priority, apart from tactical moves like taking down a PF, should be zvz->zvp->zvt, just judging by the likelihood that your opponent will take it down. Protoss doesn often enough leave his base empty enough to be not able to hunt down a speed overseer when he doesnt suspect muta.
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too much apm. i'ts tough to do everything as zerg
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next thread to go up is 'why doesn't zerg use drops more?' -.0
the answers to all of these questions is opportunity cost. Yes, we are all aware what the overseer does, but executing its mediocre abilities costs apm and resources. As many have pointed out, these things are almost always better spent on other things.
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On August 11 2012 23:48 paddyz wrote:
I would prefer to have the overseer over the oracle, being able to stop the robo from building is huge, or stopping a nexus from making a mothership.
It is one of the most underused abilities in the gamea long with the thors ability and ravens abilities.
The Thors ability is trash though, why it is an upgrade and not baseline boggles the mind(Only use it has in TvP but you dont go thors there anyways.)
And Autoturrets are just worse then PDD in pretty much every possible situation, outside from the raven being way to expensive to get to.
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On August 12 2012 02:45 RogerChillingworth wrote:
next thread to go up is 'why doesn't zerg use drops more?' -.0
the answers to all of these questions is opportunity cost. Yes, we are all aware what the overseer does, but executing its mediocre abilities costs apm and resources. As many have pointed out, these things are almost always better spent on other things.
that summarizes it pretty adequate. The follow up questions should obviously be: Is the opportunity cost of using contaminate currently judged right and will it be less a factor if mechanics evolve. Im arguing here, that the actual ressource cost of 150/50 isnt very big but the apm loss is rather substantial to many players. I´d answer the questions with no and yes.
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On August 12 2012 02:59 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:45 RogerChillingworth wrote:
next thread to go up is 'why doesn't zerg use drops more?' -.0
the answers to all of these questions is opportunity cost. Yes, we are all aware what the overseer does, but executing its mediocre abilities costs apm and resources. As many have pointed out, these things are almost always better spent on other things.
that summarizes it pretty adequate. The follow up questions should obviously be: Is the opportunity cost of using contaminate currently judged right and will it be less a factor if mechanics evolve. Im arguing here, that the actual ressource cost of 150/50 isnt very big but the apm loss is rather substantial to many players. I´d answer the questions with no and yes.
Doubt the APM loss is that significant - people can spam changelings all the time.
The resource cost is huge - 50/50 + time. The gas cost of 50 is very large - I would argue that one infestor is typically better than 3 overseers. The fact is each overseer can only contaminate once really as well, and the reward comes a long time after the cost.
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Contaminate used to be amazing, especially in zvz. I had this two base roach rush strat that involved hitting when infestors were about to pop. I would make a bunch of roaches and contaminate their energy research. If they didn't notice, it was 100% game over because they spent a bunch of money on energyless infestors. It was still good even if they did notice because they had to cancel all their larva.
Now, its not as good because it costs too much energy:-(
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On August 12 2012 03:12 Scrubwave wrote:
I find it ironic that people say that the overseer's cost is huge (50 gas) and tell terrans to make ravens.
Next time an overseer can kill stuf or block attacks, let me know. :D
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On August 11 2012 05:40 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. On topic: I have a hard time understanding this as well. 50/50 for being able to delay siege tech, colo range, blink, storm or production in general seems like a great ability. But no one ever blamed sc2 zerg players for being too innovative and for right reasons. for the price of ONE RAVEN you can say yourself dozens of scans saving you thousands of minerals with those minerals you can have a much larger army and without there speed bonus the zerg cant win, especialy when you HSM all there infesters everything LOOKS good on paper, if you honestly think no zerg has ever tried to use contaminate your foolingyourself, there was a period in Zvz people used contanimate alot but they stopped because the spell is not useful
actually it was used when it was 75 energy...but since then takes too much time to get energy
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On August 12 2012 03:02 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:59 Cele wrote:On August 12 2012 02:45 RogerChillingworth wrote:
next thread to go up is 'why doesn't zerg use drops more?' -.0
the answers to all of these questions is opportunity cost. Yes, we are all aware what the overseer does, but executing its mediocre abilities costs apm and resources. As many have pointed out, these things are almost always better spent on other things.
that summarizes it pretty adequate. The follow up questions should obviously be: Is the opportunity cost of using contaminate currently judged right and will it be less a factor if mechanics evolve. Im arguing here, that the actual ressource cost of 150/50 isnt very big but the apm loss is rather substantial to many players. I´d answer the questions with no and yes. Doubt the APM loss is that significant - people can spam changelings all the time. The resource cost is huge - 50/50 + time. The gas cost of 50 is very large - I would argue that one infestor is typically better than 3 overseers. The fact is each overseer can only contaminate once really as well, and the reward comes a long time after the cost.
Spamming Changelings is not the same... you have to control your overseer like a (slower) mutalisk flock, have to fly from tech building to tech building and take a close look if its upgrading or producing something worth spending you energy on.
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I use contaminate a lot, its a really strong ability people just overlook. Im sure you could use it to stall pushes, and in zvz its really strong for roach wars. Thats ones of the few things people still havent made use of.
Just shows how undeveloped this game is ; \
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On August 12 2012 03:12 Scrubwave wrote:
I find it ironic that people say that the overseer's cost is huge (50 gas) and tell terrans to make ravens.
Gas is actually useful as Zerg. You don't often see Zergs floating 1k+ gas with 0 minerals. Where Terran it isn't exactly uncommon.
Also it always seemed like a gimmicky strategy to me. Why wouldn't an opponent just get extra production. If any timing is going to be delayed, so what, Zerg is going to be delayed as well.
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On August 12 2012 03:12 Scrubwave wrote:
I find it ironic that people say that the overseer's cost is huge (50 gas) and tell terrans to make ravens.
Terran float 3-4K gas late game and normally say "That's just how terran is, nothing to spend it on". That's why zergs say start adding some extra starports and add ravens which are really good vs Late game zerg comps bar ultralisks.
Yes it's 50gas, and that's 50gas towards an infestor or a broodlord, all I'm saying is we have more important uses for our gas late game.
And the only viable use of overseers I could see that's realistic, is perhaps getting them out early vs protoss late game as you're getting them anyway vs mothership play, and try to slow down the mothership as much as possible.
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EPT
