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Call To Action: Balance Testing TvZ. - Page 14

Forum Index > SC2 General
1619 CommentsPost a Reply
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artosismermaid
Profile Joined May 2011
213 Posts
August 08 2012 22:48 GMT
#261
On August 09 2012 07:46 jdsowa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 07:43 gfever wrote:
is there truely a terran buff?? took em a year and half for a terran buff, rejoice!


When your race is favored for a year and a half, you don't need buffs.


im sick of this logic, it should be bannable imo. so because one race is too strong for a period of time, even while they were constantly being nerfed because of it, they don't deserve to be a balanced race?
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
August 08 2012 22:49 GMT
#262
On August 09 2012 07:46 jdsowa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 07:43 gfever wrote:
is there truely a terran buff?? took em a year and half for a terran buff, rejoice!


When your race is favored for a year and a half, you don't need buffs.

Terran hasn't been favoured for over 6 months. I'd say since the EMP nerf and to some extent the Snipe nerf Terran has been slightly underpowered, if anything. Probably around even, though.
Rorschach
Profile Joined May 2010
United States623 Posts
August 08 2012 22:49 GMT
#263
On August 09 2012 07:33 Primal666 wrote:
i agree!! they should tottaly reward creep spreading less!
I also love people comparing infestor to raven, like your whole army consists only of those two.



PvZ its not uncommon to see 20+ infestors in the field....
Also zergs are building more queens after the range buff so spreading creep should not be an issue.
En Taro Adun, Executor!
nkr
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden5451 Posts
August 08 2012 22:49 GMT
#264
On August 09 2012 07:46 sevencck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 07:41 -JoKeR- wrote:
On August 09 2012 07:39 sevencck wrote:
On August 09 2012 07:36 -JoKeR- wrote:
Well they just made two base protoss all ins better.


How exactly?


Zerg needs creep spread to hold off all ins like the sentry immortal. Now zerg ( if the patch goes through) will have less creep against the same timings which makes it harder to hold off.



Not really, you should still have the creep vital to holding the all in, it will simply not spread accross the map as quickly.


And actually, the patch doesn't effect single creep tumor spread much at all. A single creep tumor will never have spread creep its full range 8 when it's ready to pop out a new tumor. The range 6 nerf is only really for when you have mass tumors, which spread creep together, that reach their range 8 together well before the cooldown for a new tumor is ready.

I don't see 3-4 tumors going out in every direction at the 8 min mark in a ZvP.
ESPORTS ILLUMINATI
Shade_FR
Profile Joined June 2010
France378 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-08 23:05:59
August 08 2012 22:50 GMT
#265
For those who want to see what does the nerf looks like... it's definitely not a small nerf, you'll have to waste some cooldowns of creep tumor to place them right on the edges of ramps...

Classic Natural Ramp :
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1166/naturalw.jpg

Big Ramp :
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5838/ramp1.jpg

Big Ramp 2 :
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6675/ramp2r.jpg

Spreading creep on Tal'darim Altar and Cloud Kingdom was hard enough, I guess it will be as difficult on all the maps with this new change.
EU Zerg player - Streaming @ http://twitch.tv/shade_cst
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-08 22:51:22
August 08 2012 22:50 GMT
#266
On August 09 2012 07:49 nkr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 07:46 sevencck wrote:
On August 09 2012 07:41 -JoKeR- wrote:
On August 09 2012 07:39 sevencck wrote:
On August 09 2012 07:36 -JoKeR- wrote:
Well they just made two base protoss all ins better.


How exactly?


Zerg needs creep spread to hold off all ins like the sentry immortal. Now zerg ( if the patch goes through) will have less creep against the same timings which makes it harder to hold off.



Not really, you should still have the creep vital to holding the all in, it will simply not spread accross the map as quickly.


And actually, the patch doesn't effect single creep tumor spread much at all. A single creep tumor will never have spread creep its full range 8 when it's ready to pop out a new tumor. The range 6 nerf is only really for when you have mass tumors, which spread creep together, that reach their range 8 together well before the cooldown for a new tumor is ready.

I don't see 3-4 tumors going out in every direction at the 8 min mark in a ZvP.

Pretty much this. Zergs don't tend to focus on Creep Spread as much in PvZ, so there don't tend to be as many Tumors to begin with.


On August 09 2012 07:50 Shade_CsT wrote:
For those who want what does the nerf looks like... it's definitely not a small nerf, you'll have to waste some cooldowns of creep tumor to place them on the edges of ramps...

Classic Natural Ramp :
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1166/naturalw.jpg

Big Ramp :
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5838/ramp1.jpg

Big Ramp 2 :
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6675/ramp2r.jpg

Spreading creep on Tal'darim Altar and Cloud Kingdom was hard enough, I guess it will be as difficult on all the maps with this new change.

I'd say this is actually a good thing. Setting Creep Spread back a tad at the start means it won't be QUITE as far by the midgame, which is good, since it was truly ridiculous for Zerg's who had the APM to keep it going.
bellsNkeys
Profile Joined November 2011
United States52 Posts
August 08 2012 22:52 GMT
#267
On August 09 2012 06:21 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 06:18 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 06:12 Whitewing wrote:
On August 09 2012 06:08 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 06:03 Whitewing wrote:
On August 09 2012 05:58 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 05:52 Whitewing wrote:
On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:
On August 09 2012 05:36 Skytt wrote:
[quote]

Soulkey was practically giving Gumiho free EMP hits


It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors.

People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator.


The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS.


Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades.

You keep saying the infestor is good against everything, that's completely irrelevant, because your ghosts are stopping them entirely. It just doesn't matter what they are good against, because they're dead/useless with good ghost usage. Take ghosts and infestors completely out of the equation (assume they trade, not fair because ghosts still help after the infestors are gone but just imagine it): terran army vs. zerg army with no infestors. Terran army will win almost every time no problem.


+3 Ghost DSP is 1/3 (2/3 against light) of +3 marine on a per supply bases, it's beyond bad. Terran army win will almost time against Zerg with no infestors, yes, but when you swap out 20 marine for 10 ghost (that's without considering resource/build cost), it's not on the same page.


*rolls eyes* Are you seriously arguing that trading 20 marines for 10 ghosts to take out all of your opponents infestors is a bad deal for you, especially since, if you don't take out those infestors, they'll just kill your 20 marines easily anyway.


No, I'm saying:

Against a infestorless (especially roach based) army, ghost is pretty useless.
Zerg can tech switch alot faster than Terran can.
If Terran makes too many ghost compare to infestor, Zerg can just max out on roach and GG.
Zerg don't have a problem of "making too many infestor", so they can arbitrary shift the infestor/ghost balance.
This is compounded because Zerg can make 20 infestors at once, Terran can't make 20 ghost at once.

It's like Colosus / Viking balance, except if P have 10 Robo bay built already.


Okay, you try a max roach army against a marine/marauder/medivac/tank composition with 10-20 ghosts mixed in and see how that goes for you, especially since you have no roach attack upgrades. Hell, even give the terran supply tied up in some vikings, you'll get rolled hilariously easily. You're just making things up at this point, have you ever actually seen a high level zerg player switch to mass roach in the late game?


Not pure roach, just the infestor supply worth of roach (or ultra, BL, or anything not infestor). Have you tried to engage a maxed out zerg army without infestor when you have a dozen ghost? It's literally like 1/3 of your supply just disappeared before engaging.


Roaches aren't even a consideration, they're just BAD. And you're just making shit up at this point, I'm not discussing this with you anymore. Until you can figure out that 12 ghosts (24 supply) is not 1/3 of your army supply (if your army is a whopping 72 supply total, you've got other problems besides composition), trying to discuss anything with you is a waste of time.


It kind of annoys me that ever since Zerg players found out the infestor was an amazing unit, all of a sudden everything else is bad. And when Terran found out that mass ghost late game TvZ was good it gets nerfed to hell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked Zerg players have won numerous tournaments and GSLs with muta/ling/bling in ZvT and there have been no significant Terran buff nor Zerg nerfs that affect the muta/ling/bling composition.

My main issue with ghosts is that they're more situational whereas Z and P can blindly make infestors and sentries/HTs and it will always help them. The good thing is that Blizzard at least tried to give the Raven that role as well, but failed pretty hard at it.
oxxo
Profile Joined February 2010
988 Posts
August 08 2012 22:53 GMT
#268
Raven change is nice.

Creep change... we'll see. The queen range buff seriously needs to go more than anything. Not sure why Blizzard seems hellbent on keeping that change even through the massive negative feedback from both us and pros.
Lukeeze[zR]
Profile Joined February 2006
Switzerland6838 Posts
August 08 2012 22:54 GMT
#269
Raven gets better against a now weaker creep spread, but will still be garbage in a fighting situation.

Wonder if the sick ammount of zergs / low ammount of terrans advancing in the WCS tourneys has something to do with this patch (and the future ones ?). When you think about it, how much of a failure would it be if their very own global final was filled by one race ? Poor publicity, especially when you're trying to seduce the chinese market.
Terran & Potato Salad.
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
August 08 2012 22:56 GMT
#270
On August 09 2012 07:46 jdsowa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 07:43 gfever wrote:
is there truely a terran buff?? took em a year and half for a terran buff, rejoice!


When your race is favored for a year and a half, you don't need buffs.


How was Terran favored for a year and a half?

The win rates from this time are much closer to exactly even than they have been in the last 3 months.
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
nkr
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden5451 Posts
August 08 2012 22:56 GMT
#271
On August 09 2012 07:53 oxxo wrote:
Raven change is nice.

Creep change... we'll see. The queen range buff seriously needs to go more than anything. Not sure why Blizzard seems hellbent on keeping that change even through the massive negative feedback from both us and pros.


You mean the terran pros and the terran amateurs? The queen range makes it so that terran doesnt lock you inside your base with 4 hellions, and then kills you with allins you'll never scout without map presensce. I think it's working as intended. The side effect was the massive creep spread, but that is what they're trying to fix it seems.
ESPORTS ILLUMINATI
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
August 08 2012 22:57 GMT
#272
On August 09 2012 07:56 nkr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 07:53 oxxo wrote:
Raven change is nice.

Creep change... we'll see. The queen range buff seriously needs to go more than anything. Not sure why Blizzard seems hellbent on keeping that change even through the massive negative feedback from both us and pros.


You mean the terran pros and the terran amateurs? The queen range makes it so that terran doesnt lock you inside your base with 4 hellions, and then kills you with allins you'll never scout without map presensce. I think it's working as intended. The side effect was the massive creep spread, but that is what they're trying to fix it seems.

I kinda feel like the Overlord speed buff would have helped against those all-ins on its own, to be honest.
chuDr3t4
Profile Joined April 2010
Russian Federation484 Posts
August 08 2012 22:57 GMT
#273
Do they really think HSM is better/cooler than Irradiate?
I live in Russia. I wear the fufaika, valenoks and the shapka-ushanka with the red star. I drink vodka straight from the samovar, and my riding bear plays on the balalaika.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
August 08 2012 22:58 GMT
#274
On August 09 2012 07:21 Rye. wrote:
sigh. Raven buffs wont make any difference. Fungal + corruptors mean ravens just die. Far too expensive.
Creep will be better at lower leagues, but if you've got loads of tumors all going simultaneously then it wont make a difference.

Actually, when you've got loads of tumors all going simultaneously is the only time it makes a difference. A single creep tumor going at once doesn't spread creep 10 squares by the time you can plant a new tumor anyway, so the range difference doesn't matter. But with several going at once, the creep spreads faster, so you would actually be able to place all your new tumors 10 squares away. Now that maxes out at 8, which slows down the maximum speed of creep spread. Then the maximum speed can only be increased by using ovies to drop creep and plant tumors on it, but zergs have generally not been willing to make that investment.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
starception
Profile Joined August 2012
205 Posts
August 08 2012 22:58 GMT
#275
On August 09 2012 07:46 jdsowa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 07:43 gfever wrote:
is there truely a terran buff?? took em a year and half for a terran buff, rejoice!


When your race is favored for a year and a half, you don't need buffs.


No, you are wrong. Terran players have just been the better players.
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-08 22:59:23
August 08 2012 22:58 GMT
#276
On August 09 2012 07:54 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
Raven gets better against a now weaker creep spread, but will still be garbage in a fighting situation.

Wonder if the sick ammount of zergs / low ammount of terrans advancing in the WCS tourneys has something to do with this patch (and the future ones ?). When you think about it, how much of a failure would it be if their very own global final was filled by one race ? Poor publicity, especially when you're trying to seduce the chinese market.


I know you may find this hard to believe but Ravens are actually quite good in late game battles and are far from garbage in fighting situations. I'm glad this patch is happening, it might be just the incentive Terrans need to finally start using the Raven, some Terrans already do but most still haven't caught on yet.
nkr
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden5451 Posts
August 08 2012 22:59 GMT
#277
On August 09 2012 07:57 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2012 07:56 nkr wrote:
On August 09 2012 07:53 oxxo wrote:
Raven change is nice.

Creep change... we'll see. The queen range buff seriously needs to go more than anything. Not sure why Blizzard seems hellbent on keeping that change even through the massive negative feedback from both us and pros.


You mean the terran pros and the terran amateurs? The queen range makes it so that terran doesnt lock you inside your base with 4 hellions, and then kills you with allins you'll never scout without map presensce. I think it's working as intended. The side effect was the massive creep spread, but that is what they're trying to fix it seems.

I kinda feel like the Overlord speed buff would have helped against those all-ins on its own, to be honest.


No, not vs terran it wouldn't.
ESPORTS ILLUMINATI
Riquiz
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands402 Posts
August 08 2012 22:59 GMT
#278
Hmm I like the raven changes, but not sure how I feel bout the creep change.
Caster man does casting on yt/RiquizCasts
Lukeeze[zR]
Profile Joined February 2006
Switzerland6838 Posts
August 08 2012 23:00 GMT
#279
On August 09 2012 07:57 chuDr3t4 wrote:
Do they really think HSM is better/cooler than Irradiate?


tbh, irradiate was a pain in the ass. It's an absolute spell, there is no way to counter it meanwhile you can micro against HSM and it provides some sort of suspens/tense moments for the spectators. HSM is worse but has better potential than irradiate.
Terran & Potato Salad.
xbito
Profile Joined December 2010
Peru6 Posts
August 08 2012 23:02 GMT
#280
I would like if Blizzard implemented something like making the creep spread range and speed vary acording to the distance to the closest hatchery. It is important in the beginning to spread creep fast, but it could be progressively more difficult as you move far from your bases.
"If you value your soul do not look into the eyes of a horse. Your soul will be lost forever in the void of a horse." - Liquid`Tyler
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