|
On August 09 2012 00:00 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:57 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?  Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts. did you watch how naniwa played that series? jonnyrecco was far better than him in those games. Jonnyrecco is just an average gm player who sits back builds his t3 army and a moves. Naniwa didn't play his best but it doesn't change the fact he is a code s protoss losing to a guy becoming good after a patch. What does the patch have to do with PvZ..?
They get better scouting so it's much easier to defend all the timings.
|
On August 08 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:52 Snowbear wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:50 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. I'll follow the advice of the guy above you, I'll just stop posting here cause it seems idiocy is rampant. Besides, having a perfectly balanced game at the top and below is possible, koreans will be good no matter what as long as the game balance remains the same, all Blizzard has to do is making zerg mechanics harder so it's a more challenging race to play. If zerg was such an easy race then amazing players like DRG, NesTea and soon Jaedong would have won and will win every tournament. That's not the case. The fact that players like nestea are still NOT microing their units and prefer to clump up their army, says so much imo. Imagine them splitting their army LOL. Have you ever watched them play? Comments like these makes me think you havn't.
Barely any zerg take the time to focus fire things in battle beside Immortals and Colossus.
Lots of people praise Stephano because he do it consistently against sentry early game.
If I would allow myself one thing, it's saying that most pro zerg army control during battle could be improve by a good margin.
I mean, half of them still headbutt Infestors so can't deny that there is work.
|
On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote:
Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate. Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
|
On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote:KR TvZ winrate explained: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HNrRa.jpg) July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate) You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate) These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something. 2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
Actually 20 wins out of the 2 does skew win rate by close to 10%, when total amount of game in the 300s
|
On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote:
Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate. Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
no, its that lower level players have such glaring holes in their own gameplay where balance isnt the reason theyre losing. Cheese is so successful in lower levels, because people do not know how to handle it/make poor deicisons. Cannons arent imbalanced 
|
|
|
Foreign Terrans looking up to Korean Terrans as having some kind of unattainable god mode skill is so funny =) You never hear this about Korean Zergs / Protosses when their winrate in Korea is fine. It would be the first thing Terrans over here bring up in that case ('we only have to balance for the highest levels, you are fine in Korea stfu').....
|
I feel that looking at the Korean numbers as an indication of the state of balance in the game is a bad idea. The sample size is simply too small. In addition, it would only make sense if the Korean top-talents happen to be equally distributed between T, P and Z. Right now the skill-difference between the absolute top players that are in shape and the weaker Code S and Code A players is quite big. And this has a big effect on the overall winrate for the race.
Right now Taeja is beasting it up, pushing up Terran winrates. Does that say anything about the Terran race as a whole? Nope. Just that Taeja is stupidly good at the moment. A while back DRG had a similar period, where he won almost everything and really pushed Zerg winrates. That too, didn't say anything about game balance and Zergs, just that DRG was playing very well.
If the aim is to balance for the best of the best, then winrate statistics are useless. The more you restrict your data-set to top players (e.g. restricting the overall international data to Korea only), the more the influence of dominant players will become noticeable in the winrates.
Note that Blizzards aim is not just to balance for Ro8 GSL calibre players. They want to keep the foreigner scene alive as well and keep B.net filled with lower league players. It's a difficult challenge.
|
On August 09 2012 00:03 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote:KR TvZ winrate explained: July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate) You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate) These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something. 2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out Actually 20 wins out of the 2 does skew win rate by close to 10%, when total amount of game in the 300s
if the game total is 300 it skews it by roughly 6%, either way, there are always players who are on hot streaks and losing streaks over months, all part of fluctuation
|
I look forward to this thread every month. It is always so incredibly entertaining lol
|
On August 08 2012 23:59 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote:
Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate. Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. Suddenly players like JonnyREcco get much better. Suddenly code S terrans complain that every high master / grandmaster plays like stephano on the ladder. I would also like to invite you to here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leaguesAre you one of these people that actually believes that ALL good foreign players play zerg and protoss???
I love how the fact that people suddenly winning a lot more games means that the match-up became imbalanced.
You know if someone is very good but plays a weaker race, when the game is finally balanced, chances are he will start showing better results...
As for the code S terran bitching, what else is new? They did it after every patch for two years.
|
Game looking pretty balanced across the board.
Maybe ZvT slightly Z favored.
Gotta wait for the results of August to see how balanced the game actually is tho IMO.
|
On August 09 2012 00:07 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:03 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote:KR TvZ winrate explained: July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate) You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate) These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something. 2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out Actually 20 wins out of the 2 does skew win rate by close to 10%, when total amount of game in the 300s if the game total is 300 it skews it by roughly 6%, either way, there are always players who are on hot streaks and losing streaks over months, all part of fluctuation
Bring up 2 Zergs you want to have out of the equation, then we deduct the 2 best players in the matchup from each race and get a more median win-rate.
|
Okay, so we have 321 ZvTs in KR. 50,2% wins for Terran. That translates to 161 wins for Terran and 160 losses.
If you take away the scores from TaeJa and Gumiho that's 22 less wins and 4 less losses which would equal to 139 to 156.
So, if you just take away these two players the TvZ win-rate would drop to 47,1%.
|
On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game.
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
|
On August 09 2012 00:12 Grapefruit wrote:
Okay, so we have 321 ZvTs in KR. 50,2% wins for Terran. That translates to 161 wins for Terran and 160 losses.
If you take away the scores from TaeJa and Gumiho that's 22 less wins and 4 less losses which would equal to 139 to 156.
So, if you just take away these two players the TvZ win-rate would drop to 47,1%.
youre correct, sorry i completely screwed up the math!
|
On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote:KR TvZ winrate explained: July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate) You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate) These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something. 2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out
there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1%
if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%.
Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
|
On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:[quote] are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
|
On August 09 2012 00:12 Grapefruit wrote:
Okay, so we have 321 ZvTs in KR. 50,2% wins for Terran. That translates to 161 wins for Terran and 160 losses.
If you take away the scores from TaeJa and Gumiho that's 22 less wins and 4 less losses which would equal to 139 to 156.
So, if you just take away these two players the TvZ win-rate would drop to 47,1%.
Which is still pretty balanced for a single month snapshot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
