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On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest
It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
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On August 09 2012 00:11 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:07 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:03 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote:KR TvZ winrate explained: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HNrRa.jpg) July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate) You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate) These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something. 2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out Actually 20 wins out of the 2 does skew win rate by close to 10%, when total amount of game in the 300s if the game total is 300 it skews it by roughly 6%, either way, there are always players who are on hot streaks and losing streaks over months, all part of fluctuation Bring up 2 Zergs you want to have out of the equation, then we deduct the 2 best players in the matchup from each race and get a more median win-rate.
It doesn't work like that because Gumiho and Taeja are outliners of a statistic. Basically they are the big spikes. Zerg players has decent win rate across all players, so there're no outliners. Taeja and Gumiho almost have 30 40% better winrrate than average Korean Terran. To have a Zerg qualifying as an outliner, he has to have much significant winrate than the rest of the Zerg, and I don't think you can find one in July.
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Just want to echo a couple things people have been saying:
1) The sample size of these graphs are too small
2) Please make a non-Korean graph... Or remove Korean stats from International.
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On August 08 2012 23:54 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote:
Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate. Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?  Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. I have never seen you microing your units properly and horrible players like jonnyrecco win over people like naniwa. If you really think zerg players are better right now then I won't argue with you to pop the fantasy bubble you live in. Just enjoy the nonsense that's going on right now and try to win as much as you can while it lasts.
That argument works both ways though.
A lot of Terrans that used to dominate the scene are performing a lot worse after the patch while players like Gumiho and Taeja are winning everything.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 09 2012 00:13 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:00 Pazuzu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:55 canikizu wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 ELA wrote:KR TvZ winrate explained: July games v. Z: 10 wins, 1 loss (90.91% winrate) You forgot Gumiho vs Zerg 12-3 (80% winrate) These two alone skew the Terran winrate like 10% or something. 2 players out of how many in korea? skew a winrate 10%? sorry but the math nowhere near checks out there're 321 Korean games, so essentially 3 games ~ 1% if Taeja and Gumiho only won half of their game (Taeja lose 4 more, Gumiho lose 4 more), that were ~ 3% more for Zerg and 3% less for Terran, and ZvT in Korea would be 53%-47%. Oh hey, that's not nice anymore.
You can't pick stats like this, because it becomes meaningless.
If you suggest that, then what about removing the two Zergs with the best ZvT as well?
And then the cycle continues. Really bad terrans or really bad zergs skewing the numbers. Meaningless arguments because removing all outliers will leave you with the median or mean, more or less. Back to square one.
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On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:
[quote]
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid.
You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
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On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport.
On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels
That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
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On August 09 2012 00:18 Ewic wrote:
Just want to echo a couple things people have been saying:
1) The sample size of these graphs are too small
2) Please make a non-Korean graph... Or remove Korean stats from International.
Can't do this with Koreans competing in international tournaments.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:
[quote]
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:
[quote]
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
This analogy makes no sense.
The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. I for one would just crash this car if I try to go 120mph.
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On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even.
The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
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On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:
[quote]
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:
[quote]
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
At this point I can't even tell if you are serious anymore
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On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:
[quote]
but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right? Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level.
sorry but this metaphor doesnt really fit at all. You have three unique races, all with different paradigmatic play styles. these playstyles are played differently and require different sets of skills. at lower levels where people cant perform each of these skills at a certain proficiency (otherwise theyd be high level), you cant identify the problem. thats the main issue here, and why people only focus on higher levels of play for balance issues; only at a high level can you rule out all the issues of people having glaring holes in their own gameplay
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On August 08 2012 23:59 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote:
Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate. Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea? Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. Suddenly players like JonnyREcco get much better. Suddenly code S terrans complain that every high master / grandmaster plays like stephano on the ladder. I would also like to invite you to here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues
Are you one of these people that actually believes that ALL good foreign players play zerg and protoss???
Hah wow, there's not much blue on those pages!
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gosh i love quickly scrolling through this thread every month very briefly
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:45 nkr wrote:
[quote]
so if im in gold and i keep losing to terrans who amove with stimmed marauders when im toss, i guess they need to buff forcefields, right?
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:
[quote]
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL?
No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
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Looks like Taejas nametaking still was not enough.
Non korean non code S terrans cant keep up since terran is that much harder, what a surprise. I wonder why any non-korean T has not switched races yet. Hell Demuslim offraces to beat other "top" terrans with zerg lol.
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there is nothing wrong with those stats. TLPD needs to stop using misleading scaling that makes thing seems worse than they really are.
broodwar winrates fluctuation is way worse than this, but people didn't complain about it every month/week
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On August 09 2012 00:25 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:
[quote]
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL? No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense.
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
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On August 09 2012 00:28 iky43210 wrote:
there is nothing wrong with those stats. TLPD needs to stop using misleading scaling that makes thing seems worse than they really are.
broodwar winrates fluctuation is way worse than this, but people didn't complain about it every month/week
In the broodwar days, the metagame shifted much more slowly.
I think this is because the builds were much more refined than today.
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On August 09 2012 00:28 iky43210 wrote:
there is nothing wrong with those stats. TLPD needs to stop using misleading scaling that makes thing seems worse than they really are.
broodwar winrates fluctuation is way worse than this, but people didn't complain about it every month/week
the atmosphere was very different in broodwar surrounding balance. PvZ had a terrible winrate for how long before Bisu came around? The philosophy there was if your current strategies arent working anymore, then find new ones
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EPT
