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let me sum up in advance how this is going to go:
1) if one of the graphs agrees with your conclusions, discount the other on its average skill level or sample size (international and korean, respectively).
2) if you want to use a graph that simultaneously supports your conclusions in one matchup but makes your race seem imbalanced in another, say that the former is balance but the latter is metagame
this is how shit is going to go. these winrates are an interesting snapshot, but they don't give a complete picture, because they tell you nothing about who won against whom and by what method. i mean, if one race is relying on a really strong all-in or on a very abusive strategy to keep things at 50%, the matchup is likely to shift into imbalance once that strategy gets figured out. not saying that's what's going on here, but it's why these winrates tell you nothing. they give as much weight to a 6pool being held as to a terran outmacroing a zerg in a long tvz, even though the former has almost nothing to do with the state of the matchup as a whole.
tl;dr winrates are cool but are only weakly correlated to balance
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On August 09 2012 00:30 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:25 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:
[quote]
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:
[quote]
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL? No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense. Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb. Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
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On August 09 2012 00:25 Jono7272 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:59 Snowbear wrote:On August 08 2012 23:51 IdrA wrote:On August 08 2012 23:44 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:40 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:39 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:38 aTnClouD wrote:On August 08 2012 23:36 ragz_gt wrote:
Holy just realized that international includes Korean... Foreign TvZ must be like 40% win rate. Don't worry Blizzard is hiring diamond random people for game balance, justice will be done soon. are you ignoring the TvZ winrates of korea?  Well the graphs just show that zerg is way easier to play if anything. That's why they are hiring low league players for game balance, so they can also work on balancing difficulty. but it also shows that terran is perfectly fine if you are good at the game, so maybe you should focus on that :D So it's ok for me to be twice as good as somebody and still lose cause the race at top foreign level is too easy, while I would have to move to korea and practice with the best players there just to be competitive and balance the win rates with my own race. Solid point bro, try again maybe. youre not twice as good as anyone terrans limped along on their bullshit and then when it got fixed korean terrans figured out new timings and learned how to macro. it took them 2 months to get back to >50% win while you and all the other foreigners sat and bitched. you never deserved to win. get used to it. Suddenly players like JonnyREcco get much better. Suddenly code S terrans complain that every high master / grandmaster plays like stephano on the ladder. I would also like to invite you to here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues
Are you one of these people that actually believes that ALL good foreign players play zerg and protoss??? Hah wow, there's not much blue on those pages!
That's what Blizzard truely meant when they recently talked about asymmetrical balance. Some are good at the beginning of the game, others at the end.
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On August 09 2012 00:32 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:30 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:25 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:
[quote]
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:
[quote]
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL? No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense. Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb. Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly". youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
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On August 09 2012 00:25 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:On August 08 2012 23:46 aTnClouD wrote:
[quote]
Are you comparing top foreign players to gold players? Please stop being a dick. No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry. That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:
[quote]
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL? At this point I can't even tell if you are serious anymore
I cant tell if you are either. Entire post is literally full of your zerg bias and sad attempts to convince people everything is alright. Im not gonna share any views on the balance itself but you were clearly ignoring valid points to bring out random bad analogies comparing foreign terrans to gold players. Get off your high horse before you make yourself look any more retarded.
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you foreigner pros should be practicing instead of arguing on team liquid!!!!!!!
8)
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On August 09 2012 00:33 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:25 nkr wrote:On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:On August 08 2012 23:48 nkr wrote:
[quote]
No, what im saying is that there's no point in balancing the game for anyone but the best. Stop being so angry.
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play? If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:
[quote]
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL? At this point I can't even tell if you are serious anymore I cant tell if you are either. Entire post is literally full of your zerg bias and sad attempts to convince people everything is alright. Im not gonna share any views on the balance itself but you were clearly ignoring valid points to bring out random bad analogies comparing foreign terrans to gold players. Get off your high horse before you make yourself look any more retarded.
Haha, I wasn't comparing foreign terrans to gold players, I was using a hyperbole to make a point. If you had read the posts without your terran-bias goggles, maybe you would have seen it  Stop being so angry.
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On August 09 2012 00:35 stablol wrote:
you foreigner pros should be practicing instead of arguing on team liquid!!!!!!!
8)
Truer words have never been spoken.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 09 2012 00:30 ragz_gt wrote:
Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb.
Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly".
I am too lazy to search for my explanation from a previous thread (and then refine it because even then I was too lazy to write it properly), but basically...
The closer to perfection (high level play) your sample population plays, the fewer variables there will be. At close to perfection, it will be much easier to identify what aspects of game imbalance is a result of game design, unit statistics, strategic options, or gameplay mechanics and not skill. Because there are fewer differentiating variables between the population's level of skill, and with perfection, the easier it is to balance.
Imagine if they had to balance for Bronze. It is not an exaggeration to say that there could be thousands of different skills, mechanics, game sense, hand-eye coordination, etc related variables that would differentiate the Bronze from the Best. And even then, each Bronze player would be different from each other by an unfathomable amount. Then there are Silver, Gold, Plat, Diamond, and Masters players. The number of different variables in their play would make determining what is a result of game design imbalance impossible.
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On August 09 2012 00:33 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:32 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:30 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:25 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:
[quote]
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
[quote]
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL? No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense. Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb. Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly". youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
People already answered you like 1000 times but you write your shit anyway. You lose not because of imbalance but because of mistakes you make. If you lose on low level you should IMPROVE, not write angry letters to blizzard about balance.
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On August 09 2012 00:33 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:32 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:30 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:25 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:
[quote]
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
[quote]
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL? No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense. Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb. Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly". youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
Three races are different, each with their own playstyle. at lower levels people have huge holes in their gameplay, be it an inability to micro or they always forget injects. Marines should not be nerfed because gold league zergs are losing to marine pushes, because the holes in the zergs play (missing injects) prevents them from having enough units. This is an example of why you need to have a certain level of play before your winrates become workable data.
It would be easy to balance lower leagues along with high levels of play if, and only if, all players in all leagues were evenly skilled at everything, be it micro, macro etc. This way, the same changes would affect everyone at all leagues the same, because players are evenly skilled in ALL aspects of the game, not just an average of the components.
However, since the majority of people in lower leagues are more proficient at some subset of gameplay than others, we cannot use that system.
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On August 09 2012 00:32 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:30 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:25 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:
[quote]
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:
[quote]
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL? No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense. Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb. Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly". youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said
The problem is that Blizzard doesn't take what you are saying into account all of the time. They have on numerous occasions balanced units around TEAM games......which shouldn't be happening. So, really they can do whatever they want, even if they shouldn't be doing most things.
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On August 09 2012 00:33 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:32 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:30 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:25 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:
[quote]
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
[quote]
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL? No, SC2 shouldn't be simplified for lower leagues. The car analogy makes no sense. Who said it should be simplified / dumbed down? I said it should be balanced. The idea that balanced game-play is a privilege only for Korean pros (not even foreign pros deserve it) is just dumb. Is there any particular reason why game can't be balanced on all level? All I get is a bunch "because races are different it can't be done", it's like saying "airplane is heavier than air so it can't fly". youre not listening to anything people are saying at this point. people have already explained why you cannot balance at all levels of play, unless you want to simplify the game as a whole. just go back and read what people have already said I read that, that is NOT a reason, it's a conclusion, one with no evidence of backing it up.
Here is why I think the game can be balanced on all level:
You start with 3 races that's completely identical (well, then it's 3 races, but whatever)
Change one tiny things for each race so it's still balanced on all skill level. Now you have 3 distinct (well, not very different, still) races that's are balanced across skill levels
keep doing that, theoretically you can have 3 fundamentally different races that is balanced on all levels.
It by no means easy to do. I'm not even sure if current SC2 is balanced or not across level, but we shouldn't give up balancing lower level just because 3 races are different. Competitive SC2 might mean alot on this forum, but majority of SC2 player cares absolutely nothing about it. They bought the game, want to enjoy it, and deserve a balanced gameplay even when they suck.
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On August 09 2012 00:35 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:33 DougJDempsey wrote:On August 09 2012 00:25 nkr wrote:On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:02 ragz_gt wrote:
[quote]
That makes zero sense unless you have to be very best to play the game. So random people on ladder, be it gold or master, shouldn't expect a balanced game that they play?
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:
[quote]
Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race.
Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play.
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL? At this point I can't even tell if you are serious anymore I cant tell if you are either. Entire post is literally full of your zerg bias and sad attempts to convince people everything is alright. Im not gonna share any views on the balance itself but you were clearly ignoring valid points to bring out random bad analogies comparing foreign terrans to gold players. Get off your high horse before you make yourself look any more retarded. Haha, I wasn't comparing foreign terrans to gold players, I was using a hyperbole to make a point. If you had read the posts without your terran-bias goggles, maybe you would have seen it Stop being so angry.
Angry? Im not saying there is or isnt a problem with zerg at the moment, only your attempts at convincing people everything is fine through flawed logic is pathetic. But hey, why do i even bother wasting my effort? You are practically not reading anything you dont agree with and coming up with random rubbish to replace it in your head.
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On August 09 2012 00:41 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:35 nkr wrote:On August 09 2012 00:33 DougJDempsey wrote:On August 09 2012 00:25 nkr wrote:On August 09 2012 00:24 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:22 lichter wrote:On August 09 2012 00:20 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:16 Sated wrote:On August 09 2012 00:12 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:04 Sated wrote:
[quote]
If you can't perform the tasks required to play the game at a level where it is balanced then you are the problem, not the game. Huh? what does that mean? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Theoretically I should have same 50% win rate against opponent with similar MMR, regardless of their race. Not saying if it's true, but if I have 60% win rate against T/P of similar MMR but 30% against Z of similar MMR, which would maintain my pace, it is not balanced game no matter what level I play. You can't balance the game for all levels because the races have different mechanics. This means that you have to choose a level of mechanical skill at which to balance the game. Obviously, for the game to remain a competitive sport, you can only choose to balance at the highest level - balancing at any other level would make the game a joke as a competitive sport. On August 09 2012 00:19 Pazuzu wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 00:14 Pazuzu wrote:
[quote]
MMR at low levels cant be read in that way. Your MMR might be comparable to someone, but you could have much better macro/much more micro for example. you would still win against similar level opponents, but because of different reasons. MMR at low levels isnt indicative of balance in the slightest It's true, but for a game to be fun you'd expect to have 50% chance fighting similarly skilled player regardless of race. I just used MMR because that's the best we have, since there is no skill bar on profile. I'm not saying it is not balanced at lower level, I'm just saying that the idea of "balance doesn't matter unless you are Code S level" is pretty stupid. You cant have both though. Balancing lower leagues would either completely drop the skill ceiling as a whole, or would create glaring balance issues on the high levels That's just a very lazy way of looking at it. Why can't it be balanced for all level even when races have different mechanics? It's like saying "This car is amazing when you go 120mph, but any lower it's a completely piece of trash". Guess what, there is not alot place where you can go 120mph, and there is not alot people who are code S level. This analogy makes no sense. The car may be able to go 120 mph, but does everyone have the driving skill to drive this car? So should the car be dumbed down in order for it to perform equally for everyone regardless of driving skill? Better drivers will get better 0-60, better handling, better shifting, better mileage even. The car shouldn't be dumbed down because it is ONLY meant for people who can go 120mph. Do you want SC2 ONLY for people who are code S level, anyone below that should just uninstall it for LoL? At this point I can't even tell if you are serious anymore I cant tell if you are either. Entire post is literally full of your zerg bias and sad attempts to convince people everything is alright. Im not gonna share any views on the balance itself but you were clearly ignoring valid points to bring out random bad analogies comparing foreign terrans to gold players. Get off your high horse before you make yourself look any more retarded. Haha, I wasn't comparing foreign terrans to gold players, I was using a hyperbole to make a point. If you had read the posts without your terran-bias goggles, maybe you would have seen it Stop being so angry. Angry? Im not saying there is or isnt a problem with zerg at the moment, only your attempts at convincing people everything is fine through flawed logic is pathetic. But hey, why do i even bother wasting my effort? You are practically not reading anything you dont agree with and coming up with random rubbish to replace it in your head.
Funny, you're the one using a lot of random insults (or rubbish if you prefer that word) to make... no point at all. If you read my posts, you could try and tell me why I'm wrong, rather than blindly typing down every angry word that comes to your mind.
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Looks good. Lets all be happy the game is balanced.
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All I see in this thread is zergs bitching at the terrans who believe that the game is imbalanced in this thread.
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EPT
