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Lurkers and guardians always were my favorite Zerg units, so sad they got scrapped. So, no contest between the Lurker and the Swarm Host.
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On July 17 2012 05:33 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:15 naastyOne wrote:On July 17 2012 03:43 Zambrah wrote:On July 17 2012 03:38 naastyOne wrote:On July 17 2012 01:35 moskonia wrote: I havent seen any good argument for the design of the Swarm Host and there are undoubtedly many flaws in its design. Sure it can be "made to work" or "interesting strategies" can be found, but what does the unit add to the Zerg arsenal that is new and original and fun? Nothing really The harass you make with the SH while "free" is not really free, since it did cost you to make those SH's, if you make 1 harassment butt hen the Terran comes and cleans your DH's you just had really expensive lings, so as long as the Terran reacts fast and right he can make the SH not cost efficient, but if teh Terran is afraid and lets the locusts waves come and come of course they will lose stuff, the whole point of the SH is to force Terran players into action instead of turtling.The SH gives Zerg the swarm feeling, I really don't understand how you cant see it, since sending waves after waves of units is the ultimate Zerg swarm style. This. Basically both Swarmhost, and Tempest are units that are weak IF you destroy them fast, but for that you need to go out and engage them, which kinda makes much better siege mechanics than the boring Siege tank and Guardian/Broodlord "I will outrange you with universally usefull in any situation unit". SH and Tempest draw supply from high DPS usits, making the sieger weaker, thus they give the chance to contained player to break contain, they also are not instant high damage siege units, which gives some time to the player to prepair their break out. IMO SH and Tempest are brillian units, the only thing that forshadows thier greatness is the BW fans with their petty nostalgia. The only thing that worries me about the Tempest is that its really not TOO impactful considering it's cost and supply, and it falls under the "Strong Protoss units that the Corruptors counters" umbrella that Protoss is already a little too far under. I mean, if any army has a Raven or an Overseer I can't see them being really affected by a Tempest... but this thread is neither the time nor the place. ;-P Swarm Host will be an interesting unit though, at the very least it creates an Ebb and a Flow of the Zerg army, where attacking between spawns can make for timings for attacks. I like that aspect of it, units that create an ebb and a flow are just cool. :-D The DPS of tempest is subject to Beta testing, also with that long range you can snipe really expencive low HP units, Infestors, Vipers, Ravens, ex. Which adds even more micro, which is good. You`r tempest kills ligs? What a waste. You micro it to kill impotraint casters, and support units? That`s a great cost efficency. On July 17 2012 03:53 0neder wrote:On July 17 2012 03:38 naastyOne wrote:
This. Basically both Swarmhost, and Tempest are units that are weak IF you destroy them fast, but for that you need to go out and engage them, which kinda makes much better siege mechanics than the boring Siege tank and Guardian/Broodlord "I will outrange you with universally usefull in any situation unit".
SH and Tempest draw supply from high DPS usits, making the sieger weaker, thus they give the chance to contained player to break contain, they also are not instant high damage siege units, which gives some time to the player to prepair their break out.
IMO SH and Tempest are brillian units, the only thing that forshadows thier greatness is the BW fans with their petty nostalgia. Wow, I'm confused. Did you seriously just say the SH and tempest are better than the siege tank/guardian and then cite the reason as simple long-range (effectively making the things you compare identical)? Did you seriously just say that siege units that draw supply from high DPS units will make them mediocre siege units which is good? If you want people to stop making roaches, you need units with MORE and AoE DPS, not less. They need a reason to tech up and use the alternative. Please think about what you say before you make nonsensical points and in the end fall back on the 'petty nostalgia' meme. SH and Tempest are siege units that are bad at direct engagement, but have the ability to force one, IF you want one, or you can just kite your enemy, and abuse long range, without entering engagemet. which is far more interesting and challenging to use than the always usefull, High DPS tanks and corruptors. The large DPS AOE is collosus-style units. Somehow, everyone hates colosus, but you want more colosus style units? Really? Not necessarily. More vulnerable but extremely high burst damage AoE units whose attack can be microed against (such as reavers, HT, or maybe lurkers) are a much better alternative to boring, constant AoE damage units like colossi. Also, a big part of the problem is the presence of very tanky main army units that require AoE to fight against, notably roaches and marauders.
Out of 3 mentioned, only reaver had burst DPS, HT is "channeling" and lurker, is in fact similar to Colosus, or SC2 siefe tank, low burst AOE. Lurker was interesting due to need of detection, and scourge`s ability to deny it. Lurker is not a siege unit by any means, it seriously lacks range to be.
As for the tanky main army, it was no different in BW, look at Protos dragoons, Zelots, archons, terran gliaphs, and zerg ultralisks.
Also marauders are not all that usefull or used on pro play, due to very low DPS against nonarmoured.
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On July 17 2012 05:20 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:15 naastyOne wrote:On July 17 2012 03:43 Zambrah wrote:On July 17 2012 03:38 naastyOne wrote:On July 17 2012 01:35 moskonia wrote: I havent seen any good argument for the design of the Swarm Host and there are undoubtedly many flaws in its design. Sure it can be "made to work" or "interesting strategies" can be found, but what does the unit add to the Zerg arsenal that is new and original and fun? Nothing really The harass you make with the SH while "free" is not really free, since it did cost you to make those SH's, if you make 1 harassment butt hen the Terran comes and cleans your DH's you just had really expensive lings, so as long as the Terran reacts fast and right he can make the SH not cost efficient, but if teh Terran is afraid and lets the locusts waves come and come of course they will lose stuff, the whole point of the SH is to force Terran players into action instead of turtling.The SH gives Zerg the swarm feeling, I really don't understand how you cant see it, since sending waves after waves of units is the ultimate Zerg swarm style. This. Basically both Swarmhost, and Tempest are units that are weak IF you destroy them fast, but for that you need to go out and engage them, which kinda makes much better siege mechanics than the boring Siege tank and Guardian/Broodlord "I will outrange you with universally usefull in any situation unit". SH and Tempest draw supply from high DPS usits, making the sieger weaker, thus they give the chance to contained player to break contain, they also are not instant high damage siege units, which gives some time to the player to prepair their break out. IMO SH and Tempest are brillian units, the only thing that forshadows thier greatness is the BW fans with their petty nostalgia. The only thing that worries me about the Tempest is that its really not TOO impactful considering it's cost and supply, and it falls under the "Strong Protoss units that the Corruptors counters" umbrella that Protoss is already a little too far under. I mean, if any army has a Raven or an Overseer I can't see them being really affected by a Tempest... but this thread is neither the time nor the place. ;-P Swarm Host will be an interesting unit though, at the very least it creates an Ebb and a Flow of the Zerg army, where attacking between spawns can make for timings for attacks. I like that aspect of it, units that create an ebb and a flow are just cool. :-D The DPS of tempest is subject to Beta testing, also with that long range you can snipe really expencive low HP units, Infestors, Vipers, Ravens, ex. Which adds even more micro, which is good. You`r tempest kills ligs? What a waste. You micro it to kill impotraint casters, and support units? That`s a great cost efficency. On July 17 2012 03:53 0neder wrote:On July 17 2012 03:38 naastyOne wrote:
This. Basically both Swarmhost, and Tempest are units that are weak IF you destroy them fast, but for that you need to go out and engage them, which kinda makes much better siege mechanics than the boring Siege tank and Guardian/Broodlord "I will outrange you with universally usefull in any situation unit".
SH and Tempest draw supply from high DPS usits, making the sieger weaker, thus they give the chance to contained player to break contain, they also are not instant high damage siege units, which gives some time to the player to prepair their break out.
IMO SH and Tempest are brillian units, the only thing that forshadows thier greatness is the BW fans with their petty nostalgia. Wow, I'm confused. Did you seriously just say the SH and tempest are better than the siege tank/guardian and then cite the reason as simple long-range (effectively making the things you compare identical)? Did you seriously just say that siege units that draw supply from high DPS units will make them mediocre siege units which is good? If you want people to stop making roaches, you need units with MORE and AoE DPS, not less. They need a reason to tech up and use the alternative. Please think about what you say before you make nonsensical points and in the end fall back on the 'petty nostalgia' meme. SH and Tempest are siege units that are bad at direct engagement, but have the ability to force one, IF you want one, or you can just kite your enemy, and abuse long range, without entering engagemet. which is far more interesting and challenging to use than the always usefull, High DPS tanks and corruptors. The large DPS AOE is collosus-style units. Somehow, everyone hates colosus, but you want more colosus style units? Really? My issue is that the Tempest just plain won't have vision of the high cost units because of readily available detection, so the only time that the Tempest will be shelling away at a main army is during a major engagement, during which they're... not very good, honestly, its kind of necessary for them to be able to chip away at the army, a 300/300 Fleet Beacon tech unit really can't afford to be cost inefficient. I just don't really like the Tempest as it stands right now, that insane range just seems... off to me, 22 is just too huge, but I still haven't seen it used and I honestly haven't put too much thought into HOW it would be used, so I'll reserve final judgment, it just doesn't seem like a unit that Protoss really NEEDS right now. We'll see how it is against the Broodlords, though.
Well, that is kind of interesting challenge, though i see no problem using Tempests to snipe overseers and Ravens that get in the way of observers.
Than, you can also use oracle`s ability to temporally cloak your units, which is actually a huge win if you can use tempest-observer to snipe detection.
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On July 17 2012 05:15 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:43 Zambrah wrote:On July 17 2012 03:38 naastyOne wrote:On July 17 2012 01:35 moskonia wrote: I havent seen any good argument for the design of the Swarm Host and there are undoubtedly many flaws in its design. Sure it can be "made to work" or "interesting strategies" can be found, but what does the unit add to the Zerg arsenal that is new and original and fun? Nothing really The harass you make with the SH while "free" is not really free, since it did cost you to make those SH's, if you make 1 harassment butt hen the Terran comes and cleans your DH's you just had really expensive lings, so as long as the Terran reacts fast and right he can make the SH not cost efficient, but if teh Terran is afraid and lets the locusts waves come and come of course they will lose stuff, the whole point of the SH is to force Terran players into action instead of turtling.The SH gives Zerg the swarm feeling, I really don't understand how you cant see it, since sending waves after waves of units is the ultimate Zerg swarm style. This. Basically both Swarmhost, and Tempest are units that are weak IF you destroy them fast, but for that you need to go out and engage them, which kinda makes much better siege mechanics than the boring Siege tank and Guardian/Broodlord "I will outrange you with universally usefull in any situation unit". SH and Tempest draw supply from high DPS usits, making the sieger weaker, thus they give the chance to contained player to break contain, they also are not instant high damage siege units, which gives some time to the player to prepair their break out. IMO SH and Tempest are brillian units, the only thing that forshadows thier greatness is the BW fans with their petty nostalgia. The only thing that worries me about the Tempest is that its really not TOO impactful considering it's cost and supply, and it falls under the "Strong Protoss units that the Corruptors counters" umbrella that Protoss is already a little too far under. I mean, if any army has a Raven or an Overseer I can't see them being really affected by a Tempest... but this thread is neither the time nor the place. ;-P Swarm Host will be an interesting unit though, at the very least it creates an Ebb and a Flow of the Zerg army, where attacking between spawns can make for timings for attacks. I like that aspect of it, units that create an ebb and a flow are just cool. :-D The DPS of tempest is subject to Beta testing, also with that long range you can snipe really expencive low HP units, Infestors, Vipers, Ravens, ex. Which adds even more micro, which is good. You`r tempest kills ligs? What a waste. You micro it to kill impotraint casters, and support units? That`s a great cost efficency. Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:53 0neder wrote:On July 17 2012 03:38 naastyOne wrote:
This. Basically both Swarmhost, and Tempest are units that are weak IF you destroy them fast, but for that you need to go out and engage them, which kinda makes much better siege mechanics than the boring Siege tank and Guardian/Broodlord "I will outrange you with universally usefull in any situation unit".
SH and Tempest draw supply from high DPS usits, making the sieger weaker, thus they give the chance to contained player to break contain, they also are not instant high damage siege units, which gives some time to the player to prepair their break out.
IMO SH and Tempest are brillian units, the only thing that forshadows thier greatness is the BW fans with their petty nostalgia. Wow, I'm confused. Did you seriously just say the SH and tempest are better than the siege tank/guardian and then cite the reason as simple long-range (effectively making the things you compare identical)? Did you seriously just say that siege units that draw supply from high DPS units will make them mediocre siege units which is good? If you want people to stop making roaches, you need units with MORE and AoE DPS, not less. They need a reason to tech up and use the alternative. Please think about what you say before you make nonsensical points and in the end fall back on the 'petty nostalgia' meme. SH and Tempest are siege units that are bad at direct engagement, but have the ability to force one, IF you want one, or you can just kite your enemy, and abuse long range, without entering engagemet. which is far more interesting and challenging to use than the always usefull, High DPS tanks and corruptors. The large DPS AOE is collosus-style units. Somehow, everyone hates colosus, but you want more colosus style units? Really?
At the most basic level, the concepts for the Tempest and Swarm Hosts are intriguing. That said, I don't think Blizzard executed them well at all.
Beyond that, the only problem I have with your post is saying that Siege Tanks are boring and always useful. 1) They are not always useful. 2) The Siege Tank is probably the most brilliantly designed unit in all of Starcraft, making the game very dynamic and interesting with its long range, high damage while sieged, and complete immobility while sieged + the time it takes to siege up.
It's so confusing that what Zerg is getting in HOTS are all mid-to-late game units, while Zerg is already ridiculously strong and flexible in late-game in WOL. Except Swarm host is lair tech, every single other new thing is hive tech. Viper, hydra speed, ultra charge, and the new Nydus Network.
At the same time, Terran which is strong early-to-mid game is again getting all early-to-mid game new units in HOTS. The new reaper, battlehellion, and widow mine are all early game. The warhound is tier 2 mid-game unit.
I mean, man, this is impossible to balance. And please, don't play the asymmetric balance card. The whole asymmetric balance thing is a pretext of Blizzard to justify imbalance or the lack of ability to balance the game.
What Terran needs are units that can help Terran transition into late-game. What Zerg needs is a early-to-mid game unit (not the queen, please) that can reasonably fend off harassment and get Zerg and Protoss out of the stalker - roach boredom.
With HOTS coming soon to beta, I don't see anything good to the game will happen. It will still be like WOL where Terran and Protoss try to kill Zerg before the late-game with early harassment or all-ins. And when it gets to the late-game, Zerg will just roll over the other two races with stronger units and nonstop larvae production and instant remax.
Sigh
Assymetrical balance is good for a game. It makes it so that the races aren't all the same. For instance, in BW, Terran mech armies are incredibly immobile. Terran's best AA was a ground unit. Protoss weren't very flexible; they couldn't adapt to sudden tech switches incredibly well.
The problem is that Blizzard takes "assymetrical balance" to mean that a certain race should be weaker at one point in the game (like Terran, great early game, sucks late game), which is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard and one of the many reasons that I've completely lost faith in Blizzard's design philosophy.
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I added videos for the Swarm Host. Anyone wanna post what they think is the best examples of Lurker play?
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On July 17 2012 05:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:15 naastyOne wrote:On July 17 2012 03:43 Zambrah wrote:On July 17 2012 03:38 naastyOne wrote:On July 17 2012 01:35 moskonia wrote: I havent seen any good argument for the design of the Swarm Host and there are undoubtedly many flaws in its design. Sure it can be "made to work" or "interesting strategies" can be found, but what does the unit add to the Zerg arsenal that is new and original and fun? Nothing really The harass you make with the SH while "free" is not really free, since it did cost you to make those SH's, if you make 1 harassment butt hen the Terran comes and cleans your DH's you just had really expensive lings, so as long as the Terran reacts fast and right he can make the SH not cost efficient, but if teh Terran is afraid and lets the locusts waves come and come of course they will lose stuff, the whole point of the SH is to force Terran players into action instead of turtling.The SH gives Zerg the swarm feeling, I really don't understand how you cant see it, since sending waves after waves of units is the ultimate Zerg swarm style. This. Basically both Swarmhost, and Tempest are units that are weak IF you destroy them fast, but for that you need to go out and engage them, which kinda makes much better siege mechanics than the boring Siege tank and Guardian/Broodlord "I will outrange you with universally usefull in any situation unit". SH and Tempest draw supply from high DPS usits, making the sieger weaker, thus they give the chance to contained player to break contain, they also are not instant high damage siege units, which gives some time to the player to prepair their break out. IMO SH and Tempest are brillian units, the only thing that forshadows thier greatness is the BW fans with their petty nostalgia. The only thing that worries me about the Tempest is that its really not TOO impactful considering it's cost and supply, and it falls under the "Strong Protoss units that the Corruptors counters" umbrella that Protoss is already a little too far under. I mean, if any army has a Raven or an Overseer I can't see them being really affected by a Tempest... but this thread is neither the time nor the place. ;-P Swarm Host will be an interesting unit though, at the very least it creates an Ebb and a Flow of the Zerg army, where attacking between spawns can make for timings for attacks. I like that aspect of it, units that create an ebb and a flow are just cool. :-D The DPS of tempest is subject to Beta testing, also with that long range you can snipe really expencive low HP units, Infestors, Vipers, Ravens, ex. Which adds even more micro, which is good. You`r tempest kills ligs? What a waste. You micro it to kill impotraint casters, and support units? That`s a great cost efficency. On July 17 2012 03:53 0neder wrote:On July 17 2012 03:38 naastyOne wrote:
This. Basically both Swarmhost, and Tempest are units that are weak IF you destroy them fast, but for that you need to go out and engage them, which kinda makes much better siege mechanics than the boring Siege tank and Guardian/Broodlord "I will outrange you with universally usefull in any situation unit".
SH and Tempest draw supply from high DPS usits, making the sieger weaker, thus they give the chance to contained player to break contain, they also are not instant high damage siege units, which gives some time to the player to prepair their break out.
IMO SH and Tempest are brillian units, the only thing that forshadows thier greatness is the BW fans with their petty nostalgia. Wow, I'm confused. Did you seriously just say the SH and tempest are better than the siege tank/guardian and then cite the reason as simple long-range (effectively making the things you compare identical)? Did you seriously just say that siege units that draw supply from high DPS units will make them mediocre siege units which is good? If you want people to stop making roaches, you need units with MORE and AoE DPS, not less. They need a reason to tech up and use the alternative. Please think about what you say before you make nonsensical points and in the end fall back on the 'petty nostalgia' meme. SH and Tempest are siege units that are bad at direct engagement, but have the ability to force one, IF you want one, or you can just kite your enemy, and abuse long range, without entering engagemet. which is far more interesting and challenging to use than the always usefull, High DPS tanks and corruptors. The large DPS AOE is collosus-style units. Somehow, everyone hates colosus, but you want more colosus style units? Really? At the most basic level, the concepts for the Tempest and Swarm Hosts are intriguing. That said, I don't think Blizzard executed them well at all. Beyond that, the only problem I have with your post is saying that Siege Tanks are boring and always useful. 1) They are not always useful. 2) The Siege Tank is probably the most brilliantly designed unit in all of Starcraft, making the game very dynamic and interesting with its long range, high damage while sieged, and complete immobility while sieged + the time it takes to siege up.
1. Siege tank can deal damage unsieged just fine, in SC2 it can actually have more DPS unsieged, in some cases you want them unsieged, like broodlords. Also they still have decent range when unsieged.
They also are usefull in both defence, and offence, unlike dedicated low DPS siege units, that can not fend off attack by themselves, which IMO is the major interest in SH and Tempest compared to Siege tank, guardian, broodlord, ex.
2. I find the tank line mushing boring. But i guess, we can agree to disagree.
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On July 17 2012 05:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Assymetrical balance is good for a game. It makes it so that the races aren't all the same. For instance, in BW, Terran mech armies are incredibly immobile. Terran's best AA was a ground unit. Protoss weren't very flexible; they couldn't adapt to sudden tech switches incredibly well.
The problem is that Blizzard takes "assymetrical balance" to mean that a certain race should be weaker at one point in the game (like Terran, great early game, sucks late game), which is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard and one of the many reasons that I've completely lost faith in Blizzard's design philosophy.
Yep.
The common sense asymmetric balance means races are different in their design but their strength is equal. The David Kim's definition of asymmetric balance is that races should be different in their strength cross-temporal.
It's stupid as hell. And I take it as David Kim's pretext for imbalance and the lack of ability to balance the game.
This whole asymmetric stupidity is what caused Terran and Protoss always want to kill Zerg before late-game with harassment and all sorts of all-ins. There is basically no strategic diversity, it's either kill it before late-game or you die in the late-game. How is that any fun to watch?
We can't blame the BW elitist attitude toward SC2 cuz the design philosophy of asymmetric balance in SC2 is just too dumb.
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Oh god, that close up view of the swarm host just reminds me of those creepy lotus seed plants
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On July 17 2012 06:27 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Assymetrical balance is good for a game. It makes it so that the races aren't all the same. For instance, in BW, Terran mech armies are incredibly immobile. Terran's best AA was a ground unit. Protoss weren't very flexible; they couldn't adapt to sudden tech switches incredibly well.
The problem is that Blizzard takes "assymetrical balance" to mean that a certain race should be weaker at one point in the game (like Terran, great early game, sucks late game), which is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard and one of the many reasons that I've completely lost faith in Blizzard's design philosophy. Yep. The common sense asymmetric balance means races are different in their design but their strength is equal. The David Kim's definition of asymmetric balance is that races should be different in their strength cross-temporal. It's stupid as hell. And I take it as David Kim's pretext for imbalance and the lack of ability to balance the game. This whole asymmetric stupidity is what caused Terran and Protoss always want to kill Zerg before late-game with harassment and all sorts of all-ins. There is basically no strategic diversity, it's either kill it before late-game or you die in the late-game. How is that any fun to watch? We can't blame the BW elitist attitude toward SC2 cuz the design philosophy of asymmetric balance in SC2 is just too dumb.
Go watch MC versus RET, game 3, in NASL 3d place matches. MC beated ret just fine, in a long, long macro game, with map split, and maxed Infestor-broodlord-corruptor just fine.
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On July 17 2012 05:57 Archerofaiur wrote:I added videos for the Swarm Host. Anyone wanna post what they think is the best examples of Lurker play?
Comparing a battle report which is mostly showing off the new units to the best lurker play in 10 years is not really a fair comparison.
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On July 17 2012 06:35 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:57 Archerofaiur wrote:I added videos for the Swarm Host. Anyone wanna post what they think is the best examples of Lurker play? Comparing a battle report which is mostly showing off the new units to the best lurker play in 10 years is not really a fair comparison.
I agree. But im still going to put up the best videos we have of these in action. If you wanna make one using the HOTS mod ill be happy to post it 
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Glad to see the polls so lopsided. That gives me faith.
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Every unit has something cool about it, some units are more boring then others and even the siege tank is a very boring unit, the only thing interesting about it is the mode switching that allows slow push. The "most boring" unit is colossus right? well even it has a cool feature which is the cliff walk, and I have seen (and did) some sweet moves with this "cool" aspect.
The lurker sounds pretty boring when you just hear its concept - a mediocre siege unit with line splash which has the "cool" aspect of borrow attack. Since you can get detection pretty easy in SC2 I don't think it will be bale to make more ambushes then the baneling currently does, and there for will function pretty much like the siege tank - you borrow (siege) them right before the battle or even slow pushes while leaping a couple of lurkers each time forward, nothing new or exciting for the game, since right now Zerg don't need a siege tank, if it had one it would way to powerful.
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Watching the battlereport again I'm noticing that the only thing even remotely exciting about it is when a player fucks up.... Players doing good aren't interesting in HOTS yet.... Sigh.... The sad part was that the zerg was macroing horribly and was still beating the terran who didn't have much money...
Without derailing the thread I just want to say that abduct is the stupidest idea ever..... One thing seems weird in SC2 most spells are designed to take units out of the battle where hurting the units is an afterthought... It seems like blizzard is dealing with fixing their game design by saying "How can we make these units not exist so we can kill the rest of the army" FF, Vortex, Fungal, abduct....
Just doens't seem right. Anyway, Swarm host was veerrrryy boring in the Battle reports... The first time they game out against the T they did 0 damage.... 0......... Sure tanking helps.... Sure it can help zerg win.... fuck for all we know the unit is probably OP but it does 0 damage unless the other player is playing bad....... 0 Damage is not eSports......
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On July 17 2012 07:41 moskonia wrote:
Every unit has something cool about it, some units are more boring then others and even the siege tank is a very boring unit, the only thing interesting about it is the mode switching that allows slow push. The "most boring" unit is colossus right? well even it has a cool feature which is the cliff walk, and I have seen (and did) some sweet moves with this "cool" aspect.
The lurker sounds pretty boring when you just hear its concept - a mediocre siege unit with line splash which has the "cool" aspect of borrow attack. Since you can get detection pretty easy in SC2 I don't think it will be bale to make more ambushes then the baneling currently does, and there for will function pretty much like the siege tank - you borrow (siege) them right before the battle or even slow pushes while leaping a couple of lurkers each time forward, nothing new or exciting for the game, since right now Zerg don't need a siege tank, if it had one it would way to powerful.
But the lurker doesn't function that way...
IT is outranged by other race's siege units. It's designed to delay.
To hold chokes.
To ambush.
To surprise.
To be a spacial control unit.
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ha ha more than majority love the lurker
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Lurker all the way all day. Maybe its just me but the lurker just seems like a more interesting unit, both in game and for its entertainment value. The swarm host is a kind of beat on the door until it eventually falls unit, while the lurker can be used for a lot of different situations; the space control, the surprise attacks, the epic slaughtering of marines.
They are units with different niches but if it came down to it I would have to choose the lurker.
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Simple explanation: Swarm host is a poor siege unit compared to other units already in the zerg arsenal. At it stands, its a unit that substitutes for broodlord until you tech up to it, yet the costs are so high you might as well get vipers which have much more usage in all situations.
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Doesn't matter if we don't have a decade of swarm host pimpest plays, because we know for a fact that even if a top player has 20 swarm hosts and surprise spawns 40 surrogate dudes around the army, it's still just more filler, and not much different to an infested terran ambush.
Whereas, the lurker's direct AoE attack provides INSTANT carnage.
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On July 17 2012 07:45 A-p-p-l-e-s wrote:
ha ha more than majority love the lurker
Ya but its easy to forget that TL, while perhaps the most informed starcraft community, is not necessarily representative of all starcraft communities. At least judging by the reddit of this thread :p
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/wno9o/lurker_vs_swarm_host/
[Note: Dont turn this into a thread about TL vs Reddit. This thread is about LOTR only.]
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EPT
