EPTAlso I really feel like the locust won't be able to attack air in the final version. It looked weird and felt weird and too powerful.
Lurker vs Swarm Host - Page 48
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Xain
Canada94 Posts
Also I really feel like the locust won't be able to attack air in the final version. It looked weird and felt weird and too powerful. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
On July 17 2012 01:04 Sawamura wrote: You can't just lift up Swarm host without having any detection units for example observers to detect that lurker wannabe into the air . LOL. I'm pretty sure his original question was can it lift burrowed units. I think its safe to assume he knows detection is a given in this case  | ||
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naastyOne
491 Posts
On July 17 2012 01:35 moskonia wrote: The harass you make with the SH while "free" is not really free, since it did cost you to make those SH's, if you make 1 harassment butt hen the Terran comes and cleans your DH's you just had really expensive lings, so as long as the Terran reacts fast and right he can make the SH not cost efficient, but if teh Terran is afraid and lets the locusts waves come and come of course they will lose stuff, the whole point of the SH is to force Terran players into action instead of turtling. The SH gives Zerg the swarm feeling, I really don't understand how you cant see it, since sending waves after waves of units is the ultimate Zerg swarm style. This. Basically both Swarmhost, and Tempest are units that are weak IF you destroy them fast, but for that you need to go out and engage them, which kinda makes much better siege mechanics than the boring Siege tank and Guardian/Broodlord "I will outrange you with universally usefull in any situation unit". SH and Tempest draw supply from high DPS usits, making the sieger weaker, thus they give the chance to contained player to break contain, they also are not instant high damage siege units, which gives some time to the player to prepair their break out. IMO SH and Tempest are brillian units, the only thing that forshadows thier greatness is the BW fans with their petty nostalgia. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On July 17 2012 03:38 naastyOne wrote: This. Basically both Swarmhost, and Tempest are units that are weak IF you destroy them fast, but for that you need to go out and engage them, which kinda makes much better siege mechanics than the boring Siege tank and Guardian/Broodlord "I will outrange you with universally usefull in any situation unit". SH and Tempest draw supply from high DPS usits, making the sieger weaker, thus they give the chance to contained player to break contain, they also are not instant high damage siege units, which gives some time to the player to prepair their break out. IMO SH and Tempest are brillian units, the only thing that forshadows thier greatness is the BW fans with their petty nostalgia. The only thing that worries me about the Tempest is that its really not TOO impactful considering it's cost and supply, and it falls under the "Strong Protoss units that the Corruptors counters" umbrella that Protoss is already a little too far under. I mean, if any army has a Raven or an Overseer I can't see them being really affected by a Tempest... but this thread is neither the time nor the place. ;-P Swarm Host will be an interesting unit though, at the very least it creates an Ebb and a Flow of the Zerg army, where attacking between spawns can make for timings for attacks. I like that aspect of it, units that create an ebb and a flow are just cool. :-D | ||
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MajorityofOne
Canada2506 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On July 17 2012 03:38 naastyOne wrote: This. Basically both Swarmhost, and Tempest are units that are weak IF you destroy them fast, but for that you need to go out and engage them, which kinda makes much better siege mechanics than the boring Siege tank and Guardian/Broodlord "I will outrange you with universally usefull in any situation unit". SH and Tempest draw supply from high DPS usits, making the sieger weaker, thus they give the chance to contained player to break contain, they also are not instant high damage siege units, which gives some time to the player to prepair their break out. IMO SH and Tempest are brillian units, the only thing that forshadows thier greatness is the BW fans with their petty nostalgia. Wow, I'm confused. Did you seriously just say the SH and tempest are better than the siege tank/guardian and then cite the reason as simple long-range (effectively making the things you compare identical)? Did you seriously just say that siege units that draw supply from high DPS units will make them mediocre siege units which is good? If you want people to stop making roaches, you need units with MORE and AoE DPS, not less. They need a reason to tech up and use the alternative. Please think about what you say before you make nonsensical points and in the end fall back on the 'petty nostalgia' meme. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
On July 17 2012 03:53 0neder wrote: Wow, I'm confused. Did you seriously just say the SH and tempest are better than the siege tank/guardian and then cite the reason as simple long-range (effectively making the things you compare identical)? Did you seriously just say that siege units that draw supply from high DPS units will make them mediocre siege units which is good? If you want people to stop making roaches, you need units with MORE and AoE DPS, not less. They need a reason to tech up and use the alternative. Please think about what you say before you make nonsensical points and in the end fall back on the 'petty nostalgia' meme. Roaches, the mayor problem of sc2. | ||
Falling
Canada11493 Posts
On July 17 2012 03:50 MajorityofOne wrote: Im willing to give the SH a chance, but the Lurker is one of the top five coolest units in all of SC imo. One thing is that the SH model is kind of ugly, but we're talking about zerg here, if we wanted to look awesome we'd play Protoss Well there's a difference between 'ugly' as in that looks like a pile of garbage (Pizza the Hutt from space balls) and 'ugly' as in that looks terrifying (The Alien from Alien franchise). I'm not saying the current lurker model looks like a pile of rubbish, but when people say the current lurker model is not as good, they mean the first not the latter. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
On July 17 2012 03:59 Falling wrote: Well there's a difference between 'ugly' as in that looks like a pile of garbage (Pizza the Hutt from space balls) and 'ugly' as in that looks terrifying (The Alien from Alien franchise). I'm not saying the current lurker model looks like a pile of rubbish, but when people say the current lurker model is not as good, they mean the first not the latter. The swarm host is also an example of the first case. One can't honestly think the in game model looks good? (the picture in the OP looks great except for the mushroom on it's back. It's head and legs really capture the scary zerg concept) It's just a waddling mushroom with holes in it's back. Current lurker model is terrible aswell. I don't like the viper model either. The warhound doesn't fit in at all. Tempest looks pretty cool actually, but not as a capital ship. I liked the brood war carrier a lot more for that (than the tempest and the sc2 model). IMO zerg isn't supposed to disgust. It's supposed to be scary and cool. Hydralisks are awesome. I'm scared as hell when I see hydralisks in cinematics. The viper and swarm host are just ridiculous. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
At the same time, Terran which is strong early-to-mid game is again getting all early-to-mid game new units in HOTS. The new reaper, battlehellion, and widow mine are all early game. The warhound is tier 2 mid-game unit. I mean, man, this is impossible to balance. And please, don't play the asymmetric balance card. The whole asymmetric balance thing is a pretext of Blizzard to justify imbalance or the lack of ability to balance the game. What Terran needs are units that can help Terran transition into late-game. What Zerg needs is a early-to-mid game unit (not the queen, please) that can reasonably fend off harassment and get Zerg and Protoss out of the stalker - roach boredom. With HOTS coming soon to beta, I don't see anything good to the game will happen. It will still be like WOL where Terran and Protoss try to kill Zerg before the late-game with early harassment or all-ins. And when it gets to the late-game, Zerg will just roll over the other two races with stronger units and nonstop larvae production and instant remax. Sigh | ||
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Yoduh
United States216 Posts
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Yoduh
United States216 Posts
On July 17 2012 04:15 larse wrote: It will still be like WOL where Terran and Protoss try to kill Zerg before the late-game with early harassment or all-ins. And when it gets to the late-game, Zerg will just roll over the other two races with stronger units and nonstop larvae production and instant remax. Sigh 4 tempests 1 shot brood lords. almost 2 shot ultras. from 22 range away no less. 1 widow mine almost 1 shots brood lords. and a viper has less health than a roach. and with the hydra buff to make hydras more attractive late game that's more resources going into hydra and less resources going to BL/ultras. i think the late game vs zerg will be fine. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On July 17 2012 04:44 Yoduh wrote: 4 tempests 1 shot brood lords. almost 2 shot ultras. from 22 range away no less. 1 widow mine almost 1 shots brood lords. and a viper has less health than a roach. and with the hydra buff to make hydras more attractive late game that's more resources going into hydra and less resources going to BL/ultras. i think the late game vs zerg will be fine. With the Zerg has more than 8 broodlords (which is what usually happen), killing all broodlords with 4 tempest is 6 x 8 = 48 seconds. And you may already know that big engagement in SC2 normally ends in less than 10 seconds. The tempest has 1 or 2 shots and then the battle ends. How is that any help to protoss late-game. And as to the widow mine, late-game Zerg mostly has more than 4 Overseer following the BL/corruptor/infestor army. Overseer has sight of 11 and BL has a range of 9.5. Widow mines dies when they can't even see what's hitting them. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On July 17 2012 01:06 Rabiator wrote: 1. Harrassment with the free units. This is the part where the unit can easily become OP if the spawned free unit (if it dies there is no cost in minerals or gas to rebuild it) is very powerful and a group of 5 can easily take down a Supply Depot, Pylon or Extractor. If the unit is terribly weak this purpose is pretty much useless. Im always wary of arguments that boil down to if its too strong it will be overpowered. If its too weak it will be underpowered. Nevertheless yes spawners, like sappers are harder to balance. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On July 17 2012 04:58 Archerofaiur wrote: Im always wary of arguments that boil down to if its too strong it will be overpowered. If its too weak it will be underpowered. Nevertheless yes spawners, like sappers are harder to balance. Spawning free and movable unit is the stupidest idea in starcraft. This is not f***ing Warcraft 3. You don't have dispel spells that can counter spawning units. Even in Warcraft 3, the race without good dispel spells such as Orc, is countered by other races with good spawning units and heroes. And It's just pure stupidity to let Zerg has three and the only three spawned, free, and movable units in the entire game. (Swarm host, Broodlord, and Infested Terran). It's very very bad design that came from Blizzard. | ||
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naastyOne
491 Posts
On July 17 2012 03:43 Zambrah wrote: The only thing that worries me about the Tempest is that its really not TOO impactful considering it's cost and supply, and it falls under the "Strong Protoss units that the Corruptors counters" umbrella that Protoss is already a little too far under. I mean, if any army has a Raven or an Overseer I can't see them being really affected by a Tempest... but this thread is neither the time nor the place. ;-P Swarm Host will be an interesting unit though, at the very least it creates an Ebb and a Flow of the Zerg army, where attacking between spawns can make for timings for attacks. I like that aspect of it, units that create an ebb and a flow are just cool. :-D The DPS of tempest is subject to Beta testing, also with that long range you can snipe really expencive low HP units, Infestors, Vipers, Ravens, ex. Which adds even more micro, which is good. You`r tempest kills ligs? What a waste. You micro it to kill impotraint casters, and support units? That`s a great cost efficency. On July 17 2012 03:53 0neder wrote: Wow, I'm confused. Did you seriously just say the SH and tempest are better than the siege tank/guardian and then cite the reason as simple long-range (effectively making the things you compare identical)? Did you seriously just say that siege units that draw supply from high DPS units will make them mediocre siege units which is good? If you want people to stop making roaches, you need units with MORE and AoE DPS, not less. They need a reason to tech up and use the alternative. Please think about what you say before you make nonsensical points and in the end fall back on the 'petty nostalgia' meme. SH and Tempest are siege units that are bad at direct engagement, but have the ability to force one, IF you want one, or you can just kite your enemy, and abuse long range, without entering engagemet. which is far more interesting and challenging to use than the always usefull, High DPS tanks and corruptors. The large DPS AOE is collosus-style units. Somehow, everyone hates colosus, but you want more colosus style units? Really? | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On July 17 2012 05:15 naastyOne wrote: The DPS of tempest is subject to Beta testing, also with that long range you can snipe really expencive low HP units, Infestors, Vipers, Ravens, ex. Which adds even more micro, which is good. You`r tempest kills ligs? What a waste. You micro it to kill impotraint casters, and support units? That`s a great cost efficency. SH and Tempest are siege units that are bad at direct engagement, but have the ability to force one, IF you want one, or you can just kite your enemy, and abuse long range, without entering engagemet. which is far more interesting and challenging to use than the always usefull, High DPS tanks and corruptors. The large DPS AOE is collosus-style units. Somehow, everyone hates colosus, but you want more colosus style units? Really? My issue is that the Tempest just plain won't have vision of the high cost units because of readily available detection, so the only time that the Tempest will be shelling away at a main army is during a major engagement, during which they're... not very good, honestly, its kind of necessary for them to be able to chip away at the army, a 300/300 Fleet Beacon tech unit really can't afford to be cost inefficient. I just don't really like the Tempest as it stands right now, that insane range just seems... off to me, 22 is just too huge, but I still haven't seen it used and I honestly haven't put too much thought into HOW it would be used, so I'll reserve final judgment, it just doesn't seem like a unit that Protoss really NEEDS right now. We'll see how it is against the Broodlords, though. | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
On July 17 2012 05:15 naastyOne wrote: The DPS of tempest is subject to Beta testing, also with that long range you can snipe really expencive low HP units, Infestors, Vipers, Ravens, ex. Which adds even more micro, which is good. You`r tempest kills ligs? What a waste. You micro it to kill impotraint casters, and support units? That`s a great cost efficency. SH and Tempest are siege units that are bad at direct engagement, but have the ability to force one, IF you want one, or you can just kite your enemy, and abuse long range, without entering engagemet. which is far more interesting and challenging to use than the always usefull, High DPS tanks and corruptors. The large DPS AOE is collosus-style units. Somehow, everyone hates colosus, but you want more colosus style units? Really? Not necessarily. More vulnerable but extremely high burst damage AoE units whose attack can be microed against (such as reavers, HT, or maybe lurkers) are a much better alternative to boring, constant AoE damage units like colossi. Also, a big part of the problem is the presence of very tanky main army units that require AoE to fight against, notably roaches and marauders. | ||
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