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KeSPA vs GSL players cross-match - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
1706 CommentsPost a Reply
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Strela
Profile Joined October 2011
Netherlands1896 Posts
July 05 2012 17:05 GMT
#181
funny to read how ppl always used to claim how the bw players would crush sc2 players if they would try sc2 for a few weeks and now they all complain how it is too early lol.
Novalisk
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Israel1818 Posts
July 05 2012 17:06 GMT
#182
On July 06 2012 01:55 Kajarn wrote:
BW Pros playing a game they aren't familiar with vs SC2 Pros who know all the tricks and established meta game.....
Just sounds like an oportunity for a few BW Pros to show they are good at adapting to a different game, thats it.

BTW: BW Pros aren't necessarily talented, just faster. Look at Nestea, who never had the mechanics to play BW, but is a genious in SC2. Even in current SC2 world Nestea is considered a slower Zerg!

Maybe BW Pros will change the game by playing faster, but I highly doubt it. They will change the game due to their work ethic more than anything, which is not gonna happen for 6months to 1 year time.


This is so wrong.

BW pros have speed for sure, but to pin-point their success on speed alone is a terrible mistake. Do you know how many fast BW players there are? Being the best BW player requires strategic insight on an extremely high level. One can argue that SC2 puts more focus on decision-making, but you can't deny that BW requires a ton of decision making and had a significantly more competitive pro-scene.
/commercial
Emix_Squall
Profile Joined February 2012
France705 Posts
July 05 2012 17:07 GMT
#183
On July 06 2012 01:08 GuitarBizarre wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2012 00:56 ScienceRob wrote:
I imagine the people who loved them in BW will find ways to make it seem like an incredible achievment if they manage to take a single game off any of the sc2 pros.


Just like back in Broodwar it was an incredible achievement if a Foreigner could take a single game from a Korean, right?

Lets not begrudge people for supporting who they support. There's no reason to take people's knees from under them if we can all be realistic and accept potential and results are two different things and should be kept in their own discussions.


For my money, I'm confident the GSL players will win. However GOM may want to send out fan favourites rather than players who are the current hot shit. I'd expect MKP and DRG to be involved for that reason, but I might suspect that someone like Symbol or Monster would be left out in favour of slightly more stalwart players. It'll be interesting to see if Naniwa is asked, although given his personality I'd suspect he'd question being asked to show his builds to GSL players outside of the GSL itself.

On the Broodwar side, I think its fine that the fans want success and want the Broodwar skill to translate into SC2, but lets not get ahead of ourselves. The broodwar players might be humble, but they're not liars, and they've all made very strong statements about their standings vs current pros and the time it will take them to be at that level. Even the most confident estimates have said 6 months practice in SC2 before they challenge current GSL pros. We're a long way from that, and I don't much fancy hearing a load of bellyaching and excuse making from the Broodwar contingent if/when Flash loses.

In shorter terms, what I want to see is this:

Broodwar Players Lose to SC2 Players > Broodwar fans accept it, say they put up a good show, and hope for the future, within which there is every chance the Broodwar players might turn out to be very, very good indeed. MAYBE.

What I DON'T want to see is this:

Broodwar Players Lose to SC2 Players > Broodwar fans start a flamewar about how the Broodwar players are still, despite losing, somehow supposed to be miraculously better than everyone else, and the discussion devolves into another bullshit elephant in the room argument that goes nowhere.

Of course, if the BW players win, then all of that is blown out of the water. But I don't think even the BW players would suspect that should be happening.


Holy crap, what did I just read ????

A constructive comment on SC2 / BW communities ... O_O
Is this Christmas yet?
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-05 17:11:05
July 05 2012 17:07 GMT
#184
The average pro player has maybe a 60% winrate-- I'm pulling this number out of my ass, but you get the idea. That mean that they lose 40% of the games. Some are to other pros, some are them messing around, but a good handful are to random ladder players. So on a given day, average-joe-korean-high-masters has a decent chance of beating average-jim-faceless-korean-pro-terran.

But in a tournament environment, pros hold a significant advantage. They're used to the booth, and they have a team to help them analyze their opponents and create new builds. These advantages are why pros beat ladder players who perform similar to them on ladder. However, these advantages are pretty much zapped against BW pros. BW pros have even more booth experience, and their teams are pretty creative and analytic as well.

I'm a BW fan, but I don't have amazing hopes for team BW winning. Two, three months isn't enough to catch up. I think they'll give a good account though.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
rysecake
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2632 Posts
July 05 2012 17:08 GMT
#185
There will be more drama if the kespa players manage to take the tournament than if they didn't win a single game lol
The Notorious Winkles
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
July 05 2012 17:10 GMT
#186
On July 06 2012 01:52 sCCrooked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2012 00:37 StarStruck wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:36 sCCrooked wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:19 EL33T_COL wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:03 ragz_gt wrote:
On July 05 2012 23:59 EL33T_COL wrote:
Sorry to ask that but some peeps here claim that some kespa player are already KR-GM in less than 3 months of practice, do you have a source or something?


http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/ladder/grandmaster

While most KeSPA player plays as barcode (so people can't easily scout them), you can see that Stork is #185.
http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/2153042/1/Stork/



Thank you, its quite impressive to say the least.


Its even more impressive when you take into consideration that there's a significant percentage of KR-GM made up of KeSPA after only 12 weeks.



Guys honestly being GM really doesn't mean that much at all. A lot of these guys were going to hit that mark regardless.

I have to say it over and over. There is a huge division between the GM players alone.

Being GM isn't enough.


I'm not saying they'll take over the scene in the Fall tournament season or anything, but out of the total starcraft 2 players in the world, how many do you think actually make GM in 12 weeks of picking up the game?

Was anyone here GM in 12 weeks after their first glimpses into "over...seer? hmm... maurader... wonder what that does"-stage? I know I wasn't. Now imagine a large pro-gaming organization who has just about everybody making a minimum of 1200pt++ masters within 4 weeks and of all those new strong players smushed into the upper masters, already so many are becoming GM and rising there too.

I'm trying to put into perspective for us mortals exactly how good these people really are at RTS games. Meeting/hanging out with them is the only thing that really made me realize how in-depth these guys are and how far beyond comprehension they have taken their understanding of every timing, combination, etc.

tl;dr Basically saying these guys aren't going to be considered "not-up-to-pro" level SC2 for much longer.


Hey I'm not knocking them at all. What I said applies for every player who falls into GM.

I expected them to break GM easily due to their training regime. These guys know what hard work means.

You can speak for yourself, but these guys aren't your average run-of-the-mill players and that's why we're seeing such events like this. We also should remind ourselves that a lot of these so-called SC2 players were BW players prior.

This just makes the game more competitive and with HotS I think it blows open the whole scene. Guys who are irrelevant in WoL could easily start doing well in the expansion.
Zocat
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2229 Posts
July 05 2012 17:23 GMT
#187
On July 06 2012 01:08 GuitarBizarre wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2012 00:56 ScienceRob wrote:
I imagine the people who loved them in BW will find ways to make it seem like an incredible achievment if they manage to take a single game off any of the sc2 pros.

+ Show Spoiler +

Just like back in Broodwar it was an incredible achievement if a Foreigner could take a single game from a Korean, right?

Lets not begrudge people for supporting who they support. There's no reason to take people's knees from under them if we can all be realistic and accept potential and results are two different things and should be kept in their own discussions.


For my money, I'm confident the GSL players will win. However GOM may want to send out fan favourites rather than players who are the current hot shit. I'd expect MKP and DRG to be involved for that reason, but I might suspect that someone like Symbol or Monster would be left out in favour of slightly more stalwart players. It'll be interesting to see if Naniwa is asked, although given his personality I'd suspect he'd question being asked to show his builds to GSL players outside of the GSL itself.+ Show Spoiler +


On the Broodwar side, I think its fine that the fans want success and want the Broodwar skill to translate into SC2, but lets not get ahead of ourselves. The broodwar players might be humble, but they're not liars, and they've all made very strong statements about their standings vs current pros and the time it will take them to be at that level. Even the most confident estimates have said 6 months practice in SC2 before they challenge current GSL pros. We're a long way from that, and I don't much fancy hearing a load of bellyaching and excuse making from the Broodwar contingent if/when Flash loses.

In shorter terms, what I want to see is this:

Broodwar Players Lose to SC2 Players > Broodwar fans accept it, say they put up a good show, and hope for the future, within which there is every chance the Broodwar players might turn out to be very, very good indeed. MAYBE.

What I DON'T want to see is this:

Broodwar Players Lose to SC2 Players > Broodwar fans start a flamewar about how the Broodwar players are still, despite losing, somehow supposed to be miraculously better than everyone else, and the discussion devolves into another bullshit elephant in the room argument that goes nowhere.

Of course, if the BW players win, then all of that is blown out of the water. But I don't think even the BW players would suspect that should be happening.


Well remember Korean vs World? Or Boxer vs Yellow?
GSL players will just fool around / use outdated builds to entertain. So Naniwa should be fine to play.
Coolness53
Profile Joined April 2010
United States668 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-05 17:49:19
July 05 2012 17:48 GMT
#188
Honestly the biggest problem for the Kespa players right now is that there having to play SC and SCII at the same time in this Proleague Season 2.

If they can just play Starcraft II and not BW for two months solid of training. I do think they can stand a chance of taking some games off of.

As it currently stand if DRG, MKP, MVP, Nestea, and MC play the Kespa players this month they will be dominated.
Fruitdealer, DongRaeGu, and Soulkey
Kal_rA
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2925 Posts
July 05 2012 17:48 GMT
#189
On July 06 2012 01:37 Xxio wrote:
Hm, I'd rather see this happen in 4-6 months. But even then, I don't see the need for it. They can play each other in tournaments.

Yeah, and were kinda already getting this with the split OSL.
Jaedong.
Kal_rA
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2925 Posts
July 05 2012 17:50 GMT
#190
On July 06 2012 02:48 Coolness53 wrote:
Honestly the biggest problem for the Kespa players right now is that there having to play SC and SCII at the same time in this Proleague Season 2.

If they can just play Starcraft II and not BW for two months solid of training. I do think they can stand a chance of taking some games off of. If DRG, MKP, MVP, Nestea, and MC play the Kespa players this month they will be dominated.

Yeah... This is effecting both their bw and sc2 play.. I can't believe im saying this but they should have just let bw die gracefully after the last season. Sad to see it go but this is painful to watch. At least we have one last OSL to finish up for BW
Jaedong.
sVnteen
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2238 Posts
July 05 2012 17:51 GMT
#191
who came up with that idea?
this is going to be so one-sided ...
MY LIFE STARTS NOW ♥
Bibbit
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada5377 Posts
July 05 2012 17:52 GMT
#192
I dont know if I can watch this given the anonymous thing !

Not sure I could live with myself if I accidently cheered against anyone from CJ
setzer
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3284 Posts
July 05 2012 17:53 GMT
#193
On July 06 2012 01:55 Kajarn wrote:
BW Pros playing a game they aren't familiar with vs SC2 Pros who know all the tricks and established meta game.....
Just sounds like an oportunity for a few BW Pros to show they are good at adapting to a different game, thats it.

BTW: BW Pros aren't necessarily talented, just faster. Look at Nestea, who never had the mechanics to play BW, but is a genious in SC2. Even in current SC2 world Nestea is considered a slower Zerg!

Maybe BW Pros will change the game by playing faster, but I highly doubt it. They will change the game due to their work ethic more than anything, which is not gonna happen for 6months to 1 year time.


Savior didn't have great speed either and look at his accomplishments.
HappyTimePANDA
Profile Joined March 2012
United States167 Posts
July 05 2012 18:00 GMT
#194
On July 06 2012 02:10 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2012 01:52 sCCrooked wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:37 StarStruck wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:36 sCCrooked wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:19 EL33T_COL wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:03 ragz_gt wrote:
On July 05 2012 23:59 EL33T_COL wrote:
Sorry to ask that but some peeps here claim that some kespa player are already KR-GM in less than 3 months of practice, do you have a source or something?


http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/ladder/grandmaster

While most KeSPA player plays as barcode (so people can't easily scout them), you can see that Stork is #185.
http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/2153042/1/Stork/



Thank you, its quite impressive to say the least.


Its even more impressive when you take into consideration that there's a significant percentage of KR-GM made up of KeSPA after only 12 weeks.



Guys honestly being GM really doesn't mean that much at all. A lot of these guys were going to hit that mark regardless.

I have to say it over and over. There is a huge division between the GM players alone.

Being GM isn't enough.


I'm not saying they'll take over the scene in the Fall tournament season or anything, but out of the total starcraft 2 players in the world, how many do you think actually make GM in 12 weeks of picking up the game?

Was anyone here GM in 12 weeks after their first glimpses into "over...seer? hmm... maurader... wonder what that does"-stage? I know I wasn't. Now imagine a large pro-gaming organization who has just about everybody making a minimum of 1200pt++ masters within 4 weeks and of all those new strong players smushed into the upper masters, already so many are becoming GM and rising there too.

I'm trying to put into perspective for us mortals exactly how good these people really are at RTS games. Meeting/hanging out with them is the only thing that really made me realize how in-depth these guys are and how far beyond comprehension they have taken their understanding of every timing, combination, etc.

tl;dr Basically saying these guys aren't going to be considered "not-up-to-pro" level SC2 for much longer.


Hey I'm not knocking them at all. What I said applies for every player who falls into GM.

I expected them to break GM easily due to their training regime. These guys know what hard work means.

You can speak for yourself, but these guys aren't your average run-of-the-mill players and that's why we're seeing such events like this. We also should remind ourselves that a lot of these so-called SC2 players were BW players prior.

This just makes the game more competitive and with HotS I think it blows open the whole scene. Guys who are irrelevant in WoL could easily start doing well in the expansion.


pre-HOTS, the Kespa guys need to face code A-B GSL to be competitive.

After Hots , I hope Kespa guys don't dominate, they are playing 2 games at once now, so this match isn't really worth showing. Just to introduce people to Kespa players.

I just hope the great SC2 players we have aren't pushed out once the Kespa players train only SC2. (well as long as they aren't Zerg)
Violet | Leenock | Life | Symbol | Jaedong | DRG
insanet
Profile Joined January 2010
Peru439 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-05 18:06:40
July 05 2012 18:06 GMT
#195
This is the same as Boxer vs Yellow, a show just to get more viewers, not caring about the players or if they are ready. shame on them. i disapprove.
Michaels
Profile Joined August 2010
419 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-05 18:09:37
July 05 2012 18:09 GMT
#196
On July 06 2012 03:00 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2012 02:10 StarStruck wrote:
On July 06 2012 01:52 sCCrooked wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:37 StarStruck wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:36 sCCrooked wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:19 EL33T_COL wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:03 ragz_gt wrote:
On July 05 2012 23:59 EL33T_COL wrote:
Sorry to ask that but some peeps here claim that some kespa player are already KR-GM in less than 3 months of practice, do you have a source or something?


http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/ladder/grandmaster

While most KeSPA player plays as barcode (so people can't easily scout them), you can see that Stork is #185.
http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/2153042/1/Stork/



Thank you, its quite impressive to say the least.


Its even more impressive when you take into consideration that there's a significant percentage of KR-GM made up of KeSPA after only 12 weeks.



Guys honestly being GM really doesn't mean that much at all. A lot of these guys were going to hit that mark regardless.

I have to say it over and over. There is a huge division between the GM players alone.

Being GM isn't enough.


I'm not saying they'll take over the scene in the Fall tournament season or anything, but out of the total starcraft 2 players in the world, how many do you think actually make GM in 12 weeks of picking up the game?

Was anyone here GM in 12 weeks after their first glimpses into "over...seer? hmm... maurader... wonder what that does"-stage? I know I wasn't. Now imagine a large pro-gaming organization who has just about everybody making a minimum of 1200pt++ masters within 4 weeks and of all those new strong players smushed into the upper masters, already so many are becoming GM and rising there too.

I'm trying to put into perspective for us mortals exactly how good these people really are at RTS games. Meeting/hanging out with them is the only thing that really made me realize how in-depth these guys are and how far beyond comprehension they have taken their understanding of every timing, combination, etc.

tl;dr Basically saying these guys aren't going to be considered "not-up-to-pro" level SC2 for much longer.


Hey I'm not knocking them at all. What I said applies for every player who falls into GM.

I expected them to break GM easily due to their training regime. These guys know what hard work means.

You can speak for yourself, but these guys aren't your average run-of-the-mill players and that's why we're seeing such events like this. We also should remind ourselves that a lot of these so-called SC2 players were BW players prior.

This just makes the game more competitive and with HotS I think it blows open the whole scene. Guys who are irrelevant in WoL could easily start doing well in the expansion.


pre-HOTS, the Kespa guys need to face code A-B GSL to be competitive.

After Hots , I hope Kespa guys don't dominate, they are playing 2 games at once now, so this match isn't really worth showing. Just to introduce people to Kespa players.

I just hope the great SC2 players we have aren't pushed out once the Kespa players train only SC2. (well as long as they aren't Zerg)


I think this is more about introducing GSL players to Koreans, by "letting" them beat Kespa players.
Umuryum
Profile Joined February 2012
Turkey35 Posts
July 05 2012 18:10 GMT
#197
In Flash We Trust
Ordunda roach olmaya geldik, Idrajit seninle ölmeye geldik.
pigtheman
Profile Joined January 2009
United States333 Posts
July 05 2012 18:26 GMT
#198
wow sounds awesome
*rawr* d(^_^d)
ggrrg
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Bulgaria2716 Posts
July 05 2012 19:01 GMT
#199
On July 06 2012 01:55 Kajarn wrote:
BW Pros playing a game they aren't familiar with vs SC2 Pros who know all the tricks and established meta game.....
Just sounds like an oportunity for a few BW Pros to show they are good at adapting to a different game, thats it.

BTW: BW Pros aren't necessarily talented, just faster. Look at Nestea, who never had the mechanics to play BW, but is a genious in SC2. Even in current SC2 world Nestea is considered a slower Zerg!

Maybe BW Pros will change the game by playing faster, but I highly doubt it. They will change the game due to their work ethic more than anything, which is not gonna happen for 6months to 1 year time.


Actually, Nestea is a very bad example. He was a very promising talent sweeping a lot of amateur tourneys before he entered progaming. But when he joined KT, they made him train and play pretty much only 2v2. Considering how much time he was forced to waste on 2v2, he basically wasn't really given the chance to shine in 1v1. We will never know how he would have fared if he was allowed to concentrate on 1v1 instead. Chances are he would have been a decent player.
GuitarBizarre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom332 Posts
July 05 2012 19:04 GMT
#200
On July 06 2012 02:07 Emix_Squall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2012 01:08 GuitarBizarre wrote:
On July 06 2012 00:56 ScienceRob wrote:
I imagine the people who loved them in BW will find ways to make it seem like an incredible achievment if they manage to take a single game off any of the sc2 pros.


Just like back in Broodwar it was an incredible achievement if a Foreigner could take a single game from a Korean, right?

Lets not begrudge people for supporting who they support. There's no reason to take people's knees from under them if we can all be realistic and accept potential and results are two different things and should be kept in their own discussions.


For my money, I'm confident the GSL players will win. However GOM may want to send out fan favourites rather than players who are the current hot shit. I'd expect MKP and DRG to be involved for that reason, but I might suspect that someone like Symbol or Monster would be left out in favour of slightly more stalwart players. It'll be interesting to see if Naniwa is asked, although given his personality I'd suspect he'd question being asked to show his builds to GSL players outside of the GSL itself.

On the Broodwar side, I think its fine that the fans want success and want the Broodwar skill to translate into SC2, but lets not get ahead of ourselves. The broodwar players might be humble, but they're not liars, and they've all made very strong statements about their standings vs current pros and the time it will take them to be at that level. Even the most confident estimates have said 6 months practice in SC2 before they challenge current GSL pros. We're a long way from that, and I don't much fancy hearing a load of bellyaching and excuse making from the Broodwar contingent if/when Flash loses.

In shorter terms, what I want to see is this:

Broodwar Players Lose to SC2 Players > Broodwar fans accept it, say they put up a good show, and hope for the future, within which there is every chance the Broodwar players might turn out to be very, very good indeed. MAYBE.

What I DON'T want to see is this:

Broodwar Players Lose to SC2 Players > Broodwar fans start a flamewar about how the Broodwar players are still, despite losing, somehow supposed to be miraculously better than everyone else, and the discussion devolves into another bullshit elephant in the room argument that goes nowhere.

Of course, if the BW players win, then all of that is blown out of the water. But I don't think even the BW players would suspect that should be happening.


Holy crap, what did I just read ????

A constructive comment on SC2 / BW communities ... O_O
Is this Christmas yet?


I was surprised too.
In retrospect, I don't know how you can play StarCraft without swearing. - Eifer
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