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There will obviously be balance shifts when gameplay values are changed. Nobody is claiming otherwise. This thread is about the effect these changes have on the clarity and spectator-friendliness of SC2. |
On July 04 2012 02:47 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 22:08 MavercK wrote:
i dont understand people saying this simplifies the game...
deathball is an issue because your ball is so tightly clumped that as soon as an engagement happens 100% of your units are shooting and it's instantly perfectly efficient.
where as with inefficient pathing
fights become longer because units filter in and you have maybe 50% of your army attacking at any given time in a battle. alot of repositioning goes on. time is given for reinforcements and flanks. etc. the list goes on. it simplifies the game because its easier to clump then to unclump and would remove options out of the game. So if your units are unclumped by standard its way easier to clump them for 100% damage output, something that is not desirable anyway, since you want to get an advantage out of a fight. Oh and talking about the perfect a click concave, the attack of the colossus gets perfect damage from this. So i doubt you want this 100% damage efficients to happen against a colossus. Also it would be needed to change unit stats, ranged units would have to become stronger, melee units weaker, aoes wider. I mean bw is a good example of unclumped units, when a moving your units formed a line and died one by one. But it is incredible easy in bw to form a front line with your units and attack in a perfect concave. Thats why you don't really have to watch your army fight in bw, they do fine without you and reproducing the rapidly lost forces is way more important. In sc2 the control overall got easier and you could increase the amount of micro needed. Thats why there are more options in the pathfinding in sc2. The difference between a move and move command is one part of it, allowing you army to either move unclumped or clumped. A move is less risky because your units fire at sight and they optimize their damage, but moving your whole army clumped can be fairly risky against aoe units. Move command allows your army to stay in formation, holding position to attack to prevent stacking will enable your army to survive way longer, the downside is the enemy can get you offguard with his whole army. So making a-move also unclumped, would remove one option from the game, thus simpler. There is so much stuff in sc2 still that makes the game easier for you, if we make the game easier now and people find out the hidden easy modes, like autofollow and magic box. Then sc2 will truly become to easy. But right now i would say it is a bit to hard to reach the full potential sc2 allows, but i don't have 300 apm to really test out the boundaries. And gamers really like to waste their apm and units in needless actions, because its easier to train the muscles then the brain. So a-move all the way, because its to risky to learn other forms of movement and mess up.
Have you ever watched bw games? Pro's put immense micro into their battles lol. The only reason they sometimes don't is because you didn't have multiple building selection so you HAD to go back to your base to click on your barracks etc to make units. If you leave units alone to fight in bw you are doomed!! doomed! I tell you. Have you ever seen marines just going at it versus lurkers? lol. Have you ever seen science vessels just hovering above the army? Have you ever seen scourges controlled by the AI? Have you ever seen dragoons a-moving? Do you know what happens if you let your mutalisks uncontrolled? I actually just played a game where 20 zerglings were about 1-2 inches on my screen away from the fight and they were just sitting there. Bw's army needed immense babysitting. That's why pro's can get so much out of 1 unit while a noob sucks donkey balls with it. If you give me a collusus and you give a pro a collusus the difference is going to be much less than if you give me a reaver and shuttle and bisu a reaver and a shuttle.
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Still cant find the map.. so sad
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On July 04 2012 02:47 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 22:08 MavercK wrote:
i dont understand people saying this simplifies the game...
deathball is an issue because your ball is so tightly clumped that as soon as an engagement happens 100% of your units are shooting and it's instantly perfectly efficient.
where as with inefficient pathing
fights become longer because units filter in and you have maybe 50% of your army attacking at any given time in a battle. alot of repositioning goes on. time is given for reinforcements and flanks. etc. the list goes on. it simplifies the game because its easier to clump then to unclump and would remove options out of the game. So if your units are unclumped by standard its way easier to clump them for 100% damage output, something that is not desirable anyway, since you want to get an advantage out of a fight. Oh and talking about the perfect a click concave, the attack of the colossus gets perfect damage from this. So i doubt you want this 100% damage efficients to happen against a colossus. Also it would be needed to change unit stats, ranged units would have to become stronger, melee units weaker, aoes wider. I mean bw is a good example of unclumped units, when a moving your units formed a line and died one by one. But it is incredible easy in bw to form a front line with your units and attack in a perfect concave. Thats why you don't really have to watch your army fight in bw, they do fine without you and reproducing the rapidly lost forces is way more important.In sc2 the control overall got easier and you could increase the amount of micro needed. Thats why there are more options in the pathfinding in sc2. The difference between a move and move command is one part of it, allowing you army to either move unclumped or clumped. A move is less risky because your units fire at sight and they optimize their damage, but moving your whole army clumped can be fairly risky against aoe units. Move command allows your army to stay in formation, holding position to attack to prevent stacking will enable your army to survive way longer, the downside is the enemy can get you offguard with his whole army. So making a-move also unclumped, would remove one option from the game, thus simpler. There is so much stuff in sc2 still that makes the game easier for you, if we make the game easier now and people find out the hidden easy modes, like autofollow and magic box. Then sc2 will truly become to easy. But right now i would say it is a bit to hard to reach the full potential sc2 allows, but i don't have 300 apm to really test out the boundaries. And gamers really like to waste their apm and units in needless actions, because its easier to train the muscles then the brain. So a-move all the way, because its to risky to learn other forms of movement and mess up.
What the hell...?
Nobody on any high level can ever get away with not watching your army fights.
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On July 04 2012 02:47 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 22:08 MavercK wrote:
i dont understand people saying this simplifies the game...
deathball is an issue because your ball is so tightly clumped that as soon as an engagement happens 100% of your units are shooting and it's instantly perfectly efficient.
where as with inefficient pathing
fights become longer because units filter in and you have maybe 50% of your army attacking at any given time in a battle. alot of repositioning goes on. time is given for reinforcements and flanks. etc. the list goes on. it simplifies the game because its easier to clump then to unclump and would remove options out of the game. So if your units are unclumped by standard its way easier to clump them for 100% damage output, something that is not desirable anyway, since you want to get an advantage out of a fight. Oh and talking about the perfect a click concave, the attack of the colossus gets perfect damage from this. So i doubt you want this 100% damage efficients to happen against a colossus. Also it would be needed to change unit stats, ranged units would have to become stronger, melee units weaker, aoes wider. I mean bw is a good example of unclumped units, when a moving your units formed a line and died one by one. But it is incredible easy in bw to form a front line with your units and attack in a perfect concave. Thats why you don't really have to watch your army fight in bw, they do fine without you and reproducing the rapidly lost forces is way more important. In sc2 the control overall got easier and you could increase the amount of micro needed. Thats why there are more options in the pathfinding in sc2. The difference between a move and move command is one part of it, allowing you army to either move unclumped or clumped. A move is less risky because your units fire at sight and they optimize their damage, but moving your whole army clumped can be fairly risky against aoe units. Move command allows your army to stay in formation, holding position to attack to prevent stacking will enable your army to survive way longer, the downside is the enemy can get you offguard with his whole army. So making a-move also unclumped, would remove one option from the game, thus simpler. There is so much stuff in sc2 still that makes the game easier for you, if we make the game easier now and people find out the hidden easy modes, like autofollow and magic box. Then sc2 will truly become to easy. But right now i would say it is a bit to hard to reach the full potential sc2 allows, but i don't have 300 apm to really test out the boundaries. And gamers really like to waste their apm and units in needless actions, because its easier to train the muscles then the brain. So a-move all the way, because its to risky to learn other forms of movement and mess up.
Making AOE radius and damage higher would make it stronger and more risky to move over the map, clumped or not. Moving unclumped and being able to stay that way would spread out fights, giving you more possibilites for control and micro in a fight, you'd also have the option to retreat with parts of your army.
It doesn't make it more simple, it doesn't remove anything that is already in the game except for slight spreading right before an engagement but that would still be done and it adds so much more.
And moving in a line isn't always necessarily the superior. If you get flanked you're 100x worse off than if you were in a huge ball.
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On July 04 2012 02:59 iPAndi wrote:
Still cant find the map.. so sad
I'm a noob! lol
I just looked in the editor trying to find what I must have done wrong. It says private release..... I'm gonna change that right now, i apologize, new to this.
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Okay i republished it, and made sure it had public checked. Should be up any time now, please let me know. Sorry again guys.
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Can you integrate a note to the DM Unit Tester in the OP aswell? So that everyone gets more opportunities to test stuff.
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I gotta say, I LOVE the look of the movement unclumped. Regardless of any "balance issues" this would create, I'd love to see it get heavily tested and considered for the full game. If it proves to be a better way for units to be controlled, the game could be rebalanced for it. Besides, HoTS will throw balance out the window anyway until they've taken a year or two to balance it again. And as far as simplifying the game goes, this opens up a lot of APM utilizing tactics that would help raise the skill ceiling.
What bothers me most about any RTS game is when I feel like there's a fairly simple order I'd like to give my army but I don't have the ability to do that. Something like "everyone walk east" (which is what this unclumped movement essentially is) seems like something any army would know how to do, not just "everyone walk to this specific point" (which is a separate command that accomplishes different things).
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On July 04 2012 03:06 Dahlian wrote:
Can you integrate a note to the DM Unit Tester in the OP aswell? So that everyone gets more opportunities to test stuff.
Done 
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On July 04 2012 03:10 pzea469 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 03:06 Dahlian wrote:
Can you integrate a note to the DM Unit Tester in the OP aswell? So that everyone gets more opportunities to test stuff. Done
You should change "Uploaded by redice" to "Uploaded by SeiGG". That's the account I uploaded it on. :x
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Canada11380 Posts
it simplifies the game because its easier to clump then to unclump and would remove options out of the game. So if your units are unclumped by standard its way easier to clump them for 100% damage output, something that is not desirable anyway, since you want to get an advantage out of a fight.
Oh and talking about the perfect a click concave, the attack of the colossus gets perfect damage from this. So i doubt you want this 100% damage efficients to happen against a colossus.
What if don't want to have to fight against the interface becauase ordering your units to separate only to have them clump together with your next order is unintuitive 
In all seriousness, like others, I can't seem to find MMDaybreak. And can I say that Custom Maps on Battlenet 0.2 is one the WORST ways of implementing it? Bah, it doesn't even have page numbers anymore to skip around. Just click "show more" "show more" to see the next 13 maps. :S
I do however like the what the video shows. At the very least, when casters put up the dang healthbars it won't cover up all the units so I just see pretty lights rather than the actual unit.
Ah, I do see the DM Unit Tester map.
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I don't know this seems really difficult to balance with the current units in the game. Pretty much every splash-capable unit has to be reconsidered and rebalanced, but if it could be balanced I certainly like the idea of less deathball-prone armies.
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Holy shit this is like BW now. Awesome.
Yeah, it wouldn't work for balance issues but it's f*cking awesome.
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Shame the game wasnt like this from the start ... would be really nice to get a vote
old rts games used to be more liek this.
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i cannot say wether it will be for good or worse until ive acutally tried it but i agree that something has to be done regarding the whole deathball issue although im not 100 % convinced that pathing is the thing to change, glad to see people trying though =)
perhaps if anyone has played some 'quality' games could link up a video or replay to download that would show some of the benefits from this change?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina72 Posts
Looks awesome both from player and spectator perspective, Blizzard make it happen!
If needed, the balance can be adjusted accordingly.. we have 2 expansions coming anyway..
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seems like a really cool idea for the game, i don't think well see it though, this would really change the game. Even if it did change it for the better i think there would be to many changes in the overall game play for blizzard to do this.
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But this is the kidn of change that can happen with hots beause lets face it everythign will change ... things that are UP/OP now will end up with different roles
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On July 04 2012 03:22 BlackCloud wrote:
seems like a really cool idea for the game, i don't think well see it though, this would really change the game. Even if it did change it for the better i think there would be to many changes in the overall game play for blizzard to do this.
Nothing is ever gonna change if people keep saying that it will never happen and that blizzard will never do it and therefore give up trying to get them to change it.
HotS is coming up and blizzard has shown to do huge changes with expansions, from RoC to TfT for example.
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I find the only reason this didn't happen often in BW was because you werent running around 120supply in 1 control group, you could have this effect if you control grouped properly.. Atleast I know that I personally don't just 1A around the map with this ball, I always spread my army out into hotkeys.
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EPT
