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There will obviously be balance shifts when gameplay values are changed. Nobody is claiming otherwise. This thread is about the effect these changes have on the clarity and spectator-friendliness of SC2. |
This is a great idea and already feels better in unit tester. I'd like to see lots of high level replays to first see if this change really is that simple. AoE would definitely need to be buffed as many have said. Its not that we want sc2 to be broodwar, its just broodwar was much more of a strategy game compared to simcity2:starcraft edition.
However, i believe that there will be even more resistance to this than seen in this thread. Many people who haven't played broodwar and many more who have a low skill level will be very against the idea of having to do something other than making a single group fart around the map and hump another single group.
Thinking about what to do based on comp/geography(pre-splitting formations) and making specific groups based on specialty, bigger penalty for a-moving into bad positions w/o scout(stronger AoE), and more micro during a battle are all things lesser players will not like. This will definitely raise the skill ceiling. This is one of the reasons BW was so good and warranted a sequel in the first place.
I dont mean to be so longwinded or harsh, but i also think the resource rates + macro mechanics have only hurt the game and in a way(prmotes max deathball) it raises the skill ceiling like blizz intended but only lends itself to maxing out armies quicker and leaving less time for strategy. (again something lower skilled players will embrace and not let go).
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On July 07 2012 23:35 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 04:11 Plexa wrote:Dno if it has been mentioned in this thread yet, but... imo it would probably be better if something like the magic box from BW was implemented. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_Boxes![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/0/0a/Derp.jpg) If units were within those boxes (one is for air, other ground) then they would stay in formation. Outside, they would ball up. This is exactly how it works in in Sc2. The magic boxes in sc2 seem to be a bit smaller. All the MM mod does is that it makes the magic box very big.
According to MavercK the magic box sizes are the same for SC1 and SC2.
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On July 13 2012 01:41 Archerofaiur wrote:
According to MavercK the magic box sizes are the same for SC1 and SC2.
Hmm, yeah. From looking briefly they seem to take up about the same area at 4:3, It just looks smaller with a widescreen ratio. Considering that and unlimited unit selection I think they could still stand to be made a bit bigger.
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This thread was kind of ruinned when some people started including the bad pathing of BW into the original idea. The pathing in BW was bad and nothing but the result of the limitations of an old game. With the capabilities of nowadays we can get a good realistic pathing, not clumped like SC2, not freeze-go-freeze like BW. Moreover, there are plenty of other RTS games out there, whose pathing may have much better ideas to draw from than a 10+ year old game.
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I'm bumping this because there is a topic on battle.net concerning it. If you want this to happen, even to test during the HOTS beta, please thumb up and request a sticky.
Here is the thread. Please show your support 
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On July 13 2012 01:41 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 23:35 submarine wrote:On July 07 2012 04:11 Plexa wrote:Dno if it has been mentioned in this thread yet, but... imo it would probably be better if something like the magic box from BW was implemented. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_BoxesIf units were within those boxes (one is for air, other ground) then they would stay in formation. Outside, they would ball up. This is exactly how it works in in Sc2. The magic boxes in sc2 seem to be a bit smaller. All the MM mod does is that it makes the magic box very big. According to MavercK the magic box sizes are the same for SC1 and SC2.
i've been messing with the data editor a lot lately, proportionately the air and ground boxes are the same size to the building grid, but a combination of widescreen and the 3d angle makes the game a bit more zoomed out, which causes them to feel a lot smaller
the other thing was that because you could only select 12 units, it was much harder to select a group of units that didn't all reside in a single magic box by accident, now the ground magic boxes feel so small you have to box less than 1/4 of your screen height to get them not to spread out
since 1.5 if you order units around on a patrol command you can see the individual patrol lines either converge on a point if the box is too big or not if it's a magic box, and get a sense of exactly how big they are
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not a bw fan, but this should be implemented. watched 2 years of bw before sc2, and i prefer sc2, but this unit movement is very different and would cause much editing in how we (all) play
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I saw this because of the Anti-Deathball threads in the HOTS forum.
I just finished reading and skimming about 60% of this thread. I am bumping this almost 1 month old thread because I think this really deserves a look.
For those who haven't read the thread, this has not really been tested much. High level or normal players both. It's all talk about "which AOE needs needs buffing", "OMG this is great" or "This will definitely break game ballance, boooo".
I was supposed to be one of those "OMG this is great" guys BTW when I watched the first video. But the second one, I saw that formations weren't even used much so it's not a good example. I haven't seen how this will be used. So no, I think everyone should not form their opinions yet. I think there should be a test tournament or something. Maybe ask HD or Husky to organize a HOTS tournament with the setting enabled like that pHD HOTS tournament.
I think everyone should be testing instead of debating if this should be done or not.
BTW to do your own testing, the setting has moved in the latest version of the Editor.
1. Go to the Data Editor
2. Click on the "+" tab and find "Gameplay Data"
3. Double click on "Default SC2 Gameplay Settings" and you will find the Formation Diameter Fields on the right pane.
The OP states that he set the Formation Diameter setting to 50. I went into Galaxy Editor and found that the default values are:
Formation Diameter Air = 8
Formation Diameter Mixed = 6
I have done some testing myself and found that for the "Air" setting, is set optimally to 8 so Stacking and Magic Boxing for Air Units (Mutas) are about the same difficulty click-speed and accuracy wise. If you change it, you will definitely break air.
I find it weird that the setting is lower for "Mixed" though. If you bump it up to 8, the clumping is somewhat minimized already. The 6 setting makes it look like Blizzard deliberately wanted ground units to clump up. Maybe in the WOL Alpha they felt its a buff for AOE or something. However, maps then and now are much more different.
A setting of 50 is too much. It's good if you want to illustrate a point. But I found that formations will still stick even if units are more than 1 screen apart. I think the optimal setting might be somewhere between 8 and 30.
There will still be clumping and it will not be eliminated. Chokes will still have the same effect. But I found that with formations at about mixed setting to 12, single unit micro is easier. You can pull that individual stalker from your 200/200 army. Which I think will actually raise the micro ceiling for the game.
Anyway, I will try to post my own video. Just need to figure out how to make one.
I hope more people try it for themselves.
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I would like to see this to change so much. Because of the situation now some aoe spells/dmg is are now deciding factors of the game. Storms/fungals can catch nearly half of the army and banelings/colosus are pain in the ass if you are trying to micro but your units when moving are clumping up. (playing terran btw)
I don't think it will bring a great difference in pro games but mostly for mid and low it would mean alot when micro is on a lower level. Im aware that some of the AOE spells should have wider radius in this situation but still this would mean you would not have to split ur forces in fight but plan ahead to not get caught with AOE.
If there was a feature to change it in settings i think most of us would change it to BW style. Also the clump up feature(introduced in sc2) was shown as a good thing but instead it is disadvantageous in fights with AOE.
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This would make this game much more fun, in that it stops becoming a "who can move their wrists and fingers faster" competition to split units in the middle of a battle so they don't get chain fungaled to death...
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i dont like it for the simple fact that makes the game easier . split units should be something you train and achieve with hard working .
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So this is just applying magic box to ground units right?
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On October 24 2012 12:11 xsnac wrote:
i dont like it for the simple fact that makes the game easier . split units should be something you train and achieve with hard working .
Actually it makes the game much, much harder. Your dps ball is now greatly reduced. Units die much slower. You have much more time to pull individual things back, push other things forward. More time to micro the actual battle itself. Look at how long fights in sc2 last right now. 8 seconds max. Then one or both armies are completely obliterated. There's hardly any micro within the fight itself, it's all prefight micro. I want to see micro during the fight. And I dont just mean storm or emp.
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xsnac: It's not "auto split"... it's "don't freaking screw up the split I just spent 30 seconds of game time building"
All it's doing is making the magic box bigger, which in my opinion is loooooong overdue
And on that topic, just played a game on mmdaybreak with those settings, doesn't FEEL that much different, but at the same time it makes maneuvering of your army in-battle a lot easier. For example, you can have your units on one hotkey, move, and they don't just ball up 0.5 seconds before the batch of banelings shows up.
But chokes make the same effect happen (balling up), so it's not like it's some magic fix. Point is, you can throw your army out onto the map on say antiga, pre-spread, and move across the map without worrying about running into a batch of 6 banelings that kills 65 of your marines just because on the way, your marines decided to get together like a bunch of teenage girls and start telling stories to eachother.
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DBrowder als Rock  responded this topic,,,,,,,,Enjoy:
"We tested this internally a week or two ago when we first saw this video (thanks to the author of the video).
It didn't actually change anything. We tried some really extreme values as well to really push it. Since you tend to cluster your units at rally points they tend to move as blobs. Units in this code cluster when the reach their destination the blobbing still occured. Because as a player you rarely make an attack-move action across the entire map, you usually make lots of small atack-moves from place to place the units all blobbed up immediately as you moved around.
We spent several days just trying different versions of this and we never could get something that made a real difference in a live game.
I am of the opinion that pro players can and should spread out their units more by hand. The benefits are enormous. Fortunately we are starting to see this in some games and I expect this trend to continue."
Posted by Lazo
Couldn't we just make a certain hotkey so that while you hold it all units will move according to their original positions? For instance you split your marines and then right click while holding (toggling?) a hotkey. This allows Zerg to avoid Vortexes or and Terran banelings.
Which problem are we trying to solve here?
A) Pros can't split their units so esports looks bad.
B) Ladder players can't split their units and it should be easier to split your units.
If "A" then I would say the problem is solved. They should split their units. Pros who do so will win games, Pros who do not will lose games. Should we make the game easier for Pros? The impression I have gotten from the community and the Pros themselves on this subject is a resounding "No."
If "B" then I'm not sure we want to solve this? If it's a game of skill, then you need to learn to split your units. In Broodwar you had to learn to move your units. With a limited unit selection it was difficult to move a large army. Now it is easy to move your army, but harder to use them correctly in a big fight.
Sounds like a better experience for a newer user to me? It's certainly what I would want as a player. If I'm going to be challenged I don't want it to be "how can I get my units into the fight." I would rather it be "my units got to the fight, how do I optimize their positions."
It didn't actually change anything. We tried some really extreme values as well to really push it. Since you tend to cluster your units at rally points they tend to move as blobs. Units in this code cluster when the reach their destination the blobbing still occured.
We spent several days just trying different versions of this and we never could get something that made a real difference in a live game.
I'm sorry Rock, but I'm going to have to call total and complete crap on what you said here. Yes, they're still going to clump up when they get to their destination. Duh. That goes without saying. What matters is, the time during which they're on the way to their destination. It wouldn't be that hard for people to attack move a little further away from the battle in order to keep their units in position. I'm pretty sure most people A move PAST the enemy army anyway, and not directly before it (which is what would cause the reclumping).
You can make an argument for the fact that it would make the game too easy for pros, but don't try to pretend like adjusting the values don't do anything. That's simply a lie.
You can easily test this yourself using the editor. I don't think you will find it makes much of a difference. We had multiple groups of people play and we could not tell that anything had actually happened. We were not trying to manipulate the units in any unusual way, we just played normally.
Since clumping is beneficial in many situations I don't think this will change the way the game is played unless you are about to fight Banelings, Fungal, Psi Storm, etc. Only then should you split. In that case I don't think we want splitting to be automated. We want avoiding splash to be a skill thing. Right?
Source:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6573699544?page=4
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Browder doesn't seem to be familiar with the H or S keys... ¬¬
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EPT
