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There will obviously be balance shifts when gameplay values are changed. Nobody is claiming otherwise. This thread is about the effect these changes have on the clarity and spectator-friendliness of SC2. |
On July 07 2012 21:45 MavercK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 07 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 21:32 netherh wrote:On July 07 2012 21:16 Sawamura wrote:On July 07 2012 17:25 coolcor wrote:Hey check out what the guy making sc2bw just came up with for movement. Think this would do a better job of getting rid of the deathball? Looks the same nothing change . What's your problem ? "Mellow greetings. What seems to be your boggle?" Watch the video. Then note the points I made about it in my post. I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post. the original video with a ramp would look no different than default. units would still lather up in oil and slide through it no problem. my attempt at it is a little different. if a unit is moving forward and it encounters another unit infront of it. it will stop and wait for a quarter of a second and then it will try again. normally after it tries again it will try to take a new path. mine doesn't do this yet. they simply wait and wait and wait. so it's not perfect. yet. the idea is simple, you are not going to get a nice concave if you just a-move. your army will not be at it's most efficient when moving around (seems about right dont it?) i like it alot better. positioning is much more important as is awareness. i did a test with my mod, i put 7 siege tanks in siege mode and a-moved 200 marines into them. every marine died and not a scratch on any of the tanks. i did the same thing but spread them out and did my best to make a concave. i killed all the tanks fairly easily. i think this is a nice dynamic and creates a large disparity between a low and high skilled player. a high skilled player might be able to break that tank line with superior play. while a low skilled player would get demolished. i honestly have a hard time finding cons here =\
That sounds incredibly cool.
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On July 07 2012 04:11 Plexa wrote:Dno if it has been mentioned in this thread yet, but... imo it would probably be better if something like the magic box from BW was implemented. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_Boxes![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/0/0a/Derp.jpg) If units were within those boxes (one is for air, other ground) then they would stay in formation. Outside, they would ball up.
This is exactly how it works in in Sc2. The magic boxes in sc2 seem to be a bit smaller. All the MM mod does is that it makes the magic box very big.
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On July 07 2012 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 21:45 MavercK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 07 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 21:32 netherh wrote:On July 07 2012 21:16 Sawamura wrote:On July 07 2012 17:25 coolcor wrote:Hey check out what the guy making sc2bw just came up with for movement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eY_6hKIi_cThink this would do a better job of getting rid of the deathball? Looks the same nothing change . What's your problem ? "Mellow greetings. What seems to be your boggle?" Watch the video. Then note the points I made about it in my post. I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post. the original video with a ramp would look no different than default. units would still lather up in oil and slide through it no problem. my attempt at it is a little different. if a unit is moving forward and it encounters another unit infront of it. it will stop and wait for a quarter of a second and then it will try again. normally after it tries again it will try to take a new path. mine doesn't do this yet. they simply wait and wait and wait. so it's not perfect. yet. the idea is simple, you are not going to get a nice concave if you just a-move. your army will not be at it's most efficient when moving around (seems about right dont it?) i like it alot better. positioning is much more important as is awareness. i did a test with my mod, i put 7 siege tanks in siege mode and a-moved 200 marines into them. every marine died and not a scratch on any of the tanks. i did the same thing but spread them out and did my best to make a concave. i killed all the tanks fairly easily. i think this is a nice dynamic and creates a large disparity between a low and high skilled player. a high skilled player might be able to break that tank line with superior play. while a low skilled player would get demolished. i honestly have a hard time finding cons here =\ That sounds incredibly cool.
Maverck, you are the man!
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On July 07 2012 22:42 MavercK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 22:35 Sawamura wrote:On July 07 2012 22:07 netherh wrote:On July 07 2012 21:50 Sawamura wrote:On July 07 2012 21:40 netherh wrote:On July 07 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote:
I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post. At this point I'm happy to conclude that you're either blind, or trolling. Watch the default sc2 movement in the sc2bw video. See how it's nice and smooth. Now watch the later movement. See how half the units actually stop moving at the corners, and it takes at least 3 times as long for them to negotiate the ramps. So let me get this straight if you don't like the idea of units moving slowly through the ramp with the sc2 bw mods although the units are more spread out than the default mode . Than don't install it and play sc2 in default mode. I don't see the need to hate the mod . This is the last time I reply to you, since you're so determined to troll. I'm not hating the mod. If you want something that plays like BW, that's fine. It's great that people mod SC2, and do whatever they want to do with it. However, people appear to be discussing improvements to the standard SC2 AI in this thread. I'm saying that the sc2bw one should not be a candidate for this because of the points I made, although I would be interested to see it with the changes MavercK mentions. It seems that the main objective of the OP's modified movement was to make it easier to keep units in formation. This arguably improves viewer experience and player experience as less micro to keep units spread out while moving. At the same time, the need to constantly spread / reshape your army while moving is the only thing removed. Other aspects of micro remain the same. MavercK seems to be focussed on doing the opposite - increasing the amount of micro required to do basic things like move around the map. I don't agree that this is necessary or beneficial for standard SC2. There's already a vast amount that can be done by a skilled player to improve engagements (whether that's positional awareness / map vision or unit micro (splitting / concaves / AOE avoidance / focus fire etc.)). I disagree with you on that point and have already stated from the post previously that there is no sign that players will have difficulty moving across the map with his modification also there is no additional micro in doing so . If you click the unit to go above the ramp the units will accomplish that objective there is no need to micro it as if goliaths are walking up the ramp in broodwar. yea... it's not like im making you pull off some sick micro to get units up a ramp or else half wont make it. it's more. you might move your army from one side of the map to the other and it will become vulnerable and be out of position. it wont be ready for a fight in this state.
Yes. This is what is needed!! That was a great demo for this. Large armies are too easy to control . The way it should be is that a large army that is a-moved into a well controlled and placed much smaller army should just be decimated.
If we bring this to blizzard's notice and get their support maybe they can do more to make this possible with the tools at their disposal and at the same time look smooth. I'm thinking Civ 5 vs 4 where they broke up the Civ4 deathballs by imposing a unit per tile rule which IMO makes battles look more epic and army positioning more important since you couldn't just move a big block with every type of unit on that tile to an enemy city.
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On July 08 2012 00:10 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 22:42 MavercK wrote:On July 07 2012 22:35 Sawamura wrote:On July 07 2012 22:07 netherh wrote:On July 07 2012 21:50 Sawamura wrote:On July 07 2012 21:40 netherh wrote:On July 07 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote:
I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post. At this point I'm happy to conclude that you're either blind, or trolling. Watch the default sc2 movement in the sc2bw video. See how it's nice and smooth. Now watch the later movement. See how half the units actually stop moving at the corners, and it takes at least 3 times as long for them to negotiate the ramps. So let me get this straight if you don't like the idea of units moving slowly through the ramp with the sc2 bw mods although the units are more spread out than the default mode . Than don't install it and play sc2 in default mode. I don't see the need to hate the mod . This is the last time I reply to you, since you're so determined to troll. I'm not hating the mod. If you want something that plays like BW, that's fine. It's great that people mod SC2, and do whatever they want to do with it. However, people appear to be discussing improvements to the standard SC2 AI in this thread. I'm saying that the sc2bw one should not be a candidate for this because of the points I made, although I would be interested to see it with the changes MavercK mentions. It seems that the main objective of the OP's modified movement was to make it easier to keep units in formation. This arguably improves viewer experience and player experience as less micro to keep units spread out while moving. At the same time, the need to constantly spread / reshape your army while moving is the only thing removed. Other aspects of micro remain the same. MavercK seems to be focussed on doing the opposite - increasing the amount of micro required to do basic things like move around the map. I don't agree that this is necessary or beneficial for standard SC2. There's already a vast amount that can be done by a skilled player to improve engagements (whether that's positional awareness / map vision or unit micro (splitting / concaves / AOE avoidance / focus fire etc.)). I disagree with you on that point and have already stated from the post previously that there is no sign that players will have difficulty moving across the map with his modification also there is no additional micro in doing so . If you click the unit to go above the ramp the units will accomplish that objective there is no need to micro it as if goliaths are walking up the ramp in broodwar. yea... it's not like im making you pull off some sick micro to get units up a ramp or else half wont make it. it's more. you might move your army from one side of the map to the other and it will become vulnerable and be out of position. it wont be ready for a fight in this state. Yes. This is what is needed!! That was a great demo for this. Large armies are too easy to control . The way it should be is that a large army that is a-moved into a well controlled and placed much smaller army should just be decimated. If we bring this to blizzard's notice and get their support maybe they can do more to make this possible with the tools at their disposal and at the same time look smooth. I'm thinking Civ 5 vs 4 where they broke up the Civ4 deathballs by imposing a unit per tile rule which IMO makes battles look more epic and army positioning more important since you couldn't just move a big block with every type of unit on that tile to an enemy city.
Just switch to terran if you think large army are too easy to control. You cant "a-move" terran armys at any point of the game.
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On July 08 2012 00:10 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 22:42 MavercK wrote:On July 07 2012 22:35 Sawamura wrote:On July 07 2012 22:07 netherh wrote:On July 07 2012 21:50 Sawamura wrote:On July 07 2012 21:40 netherh wrote:On July 07 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote:
I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post. At this point I'm happy to conclude that you're either blind, or trolling. Watch the default sc2 movement in the sc2bw video. See how it's nice and smooth. Now watch the later movement. See how half the units actually stop moving at the corners, and it takes at least 3 times as long for them to negotiate the ramps. So let me get this straight if you don't like the idea of units moving slowly through the ramp with the sc2 bw mods although the units are more spread out than the default mode . Than don't install it and play sc2 in default mode. I don't see the need to hate the mod . This is the last time I reply to you, since you're so determined to troll. I'm not hating the mod. If you want something that plays like BW, that's fine. It's great that people mod SC2, and do whatever they want to do with it. However, people appear to be discussing improvements to the standard SC2 AI in this thread. I'm saying that the sc2bw one should not be a candidate for this because of the points I made, although I would be interested to see it with the changes MavercK mentions. It seems that the main objective of the OP's modified movement was to make it easier to keep units in formation. This arguably improves viewer experience and player experience as less micro to keep units spread out while moving. At the same time, the need to constantly spread / reshape your army while moving is the only thing removed. Other aspects of micro remain the same. MavercK seems to be focussed on doing the opposite - increasing the amount of micro required to do basic things like move around the map. I don't agree that this is necessary or beneficial for standard SC2. There's already a vast amount that can be done by a skilled player to improve engagements (whether that's positional awareness / map vision or unit micro (splitting / concaves / AOE avoidance / focus fire etc.)). I disagree with you on that point and have already stated from the post previously that there is no sign that players will have difficulty moving across the map with his modification also there is no additional micro in doing so . If you click the unit to go above the ramp the units will accomplish that objective there is no need to micro it as if goliaths are walking up the ramp in broodwar. yea... it's not like im making you pull off some sick micro to get units up a ramp or else half wont make it. it's more. you might move your army from one side of the map to the other and it will become vulnerable and be out of position. it wont be ready for a fight in this state. Yes. This is what is needed!! That was a great demo for this. Large armies are too easy to control . The way it should be is that a large army that is a-moved into a well controlled and placed much smaller army should just be decimated. If we bring this to blizzard's notice and get their support maybe they can do more to make this possible with the tools at their disposal and at the same time look smooth. I'm thinking Civ 5 vs 4 where they broke up the Civ4 deathballs by imposing a unit per tile rule which IMO makes battles look more epic and army positioning more important since you couldn't just move a big block with every type of unit on that tile to an enemy city.
The way you make Blizzard take notice is by playing MavercK's SC2BW mod once he impliments this.
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I just get this feeling that Blizzard wont do anything.
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On July 08 2012 00:23 Black[CAT] wrote:
I just get this feeling that Blizzard wont do anything.
We should all just move to SC2BW.
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This literally left tears in my eyes. It's glorious. Absolutely glorious.
It's actually realistic, and gives so much more micro potential like BW. We need to start a movement guys. We need to get something done for the future of SC2.
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On July 08 2012 00:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 00:23 Black[CAT] wrote:
I just get this feeling that Blizzard wont do anything. We should all just move to SC2BW.
or to a modded version of SC2 but with Maverick's pathing.
Obvious Blizzard doesn't want the more casual players or the newcomers to rage over this so they will be cautious. The only way they'd implement it is if and only if the vast majority of the community support it unanimously.
I'm so pumped that we can find a middle ground between BW and SC2 to get the best out of each! Maverick for president!
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I love this, even as a protoss that would be hurt by the AOE nerf.
It seems like a simple fix that would have a great impact on the game, and it just looks a lot nicer.
I would also like to see some more refined movement ai. For instance, units selected and grouped together should move at the same speed, ie stalkers and colossus wouldn't run in front of zealots, medivacs and hellions wouldn't outpace their infantry/tank support, etc.
keep pushing this up, I'd love to see it get some traction.
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On July 08 2012 02:37 quillian wrote:
units selected and grouped together should move at the same speed, ie stalkers and colossus wouldn't run in front of zealots, medivacs and hellions wouldn't outpace their infantry/tank support, etc.
This is the complete opposite of what we're trying to do. We want armies to be more heterogenous and require more micro, not auto-move at the same speed.
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On July 07 2012 19:49 MavercK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 19:20 LaLuSh wrote:On July 07 2012 00:32 Superouman wrote:On July 06 2012 23:26 LaLuSh wrote:
For some reason, how long a worker spends mining a mineral field can't be changed in the editor. This has led the community to try fewer resource nodes per base, lower yield mining and other convoluted solutions to a problem that has an obvious fix (except it's not available in the editor). It's possible, i did it in my own experiments with data editor. How? Some guy pointed to the OP. But as far as I can tell the OP only talks about tweaking unit formation settings, not about mining. I've searched around a lot for this and haven't found it. mineral patches have a behavior on them, edit this behavior.
Wish I had thought of this before spending 2 hours tweaking every variable on workers ^^
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On July 07 2012 01:32 Archerofaiur wrote:
What is misguided about supporting the custom map scene as a vehicle for creating the game the community wants to play? One only need to look at DOTA.
The part that's misguided is bringing up radical overhauls to the game in a thread focused on implementing only a minor tweak for usability. That is not what this thread is about. Comparing the two is only giving credibility to the people accusing the OP & supporters of trying to change SC2 only out of love for BW. Likewise with the follow-up posts about MavercK's pathing changes and SC2BW. To keep with your DotA analogy, it's like responding to a thread about moving a creep camp on turtle rock slightly closer to a given main (with a given test map and reasoning as to why the change is useful) by suggesting that Rikimaru should be added to TFT because he sure would be a great hero.
As far as it matters, MavercK's attempt is breaking the pathing to make it "more BW-like" -- which is the point of his BROOD WAR REMAKE, -- whereas the OP is just adjusting the size of the existing magic box to keep the units from clumping so aggressively.
That's what I mean when I say it's "misguided", and that's how I'd describe most of the last two pages here talking about the SC2BW video, too. A very small change to how armies are currently controlled is a completely different topic from what's shown in those videos. They aren't the same class of change at all. I think this is also what netherh was trying to say with
On July 07 2012 20:50 netherh wrote:
You can't pretend like making the AI worse is an actual solution to anything (other than nostalgia for BW players).
Although opinions will vary about whether or not this is making the pathing AI better or worse, it has nothing to do with the OP's MM maps. It doesn't belong here. It even seems a little unfair to even bring them up here, I think, because the people praising the changes in SC2BW aren't going to be testing MM maps, due to them being so significantly different/disconnected.
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Very cool idea! I hate how everything clumps  made terran bio balls so hard to control...
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On July 08 2012 09:27 MinusPlus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 01:32 Archerofaiur wrote:
What is misguided about supporting the custom map scene as a vehicle for creating the game the community wants to play? One only need to look at DOTA. The part that's misguided is bringing up radical overhauls to the game in a thread focused on implementing only a minor tweak for usability. That is not what this thread is about. Comparing the two is only giving credibility to the people accusing the OP & supporters of trying to change SC2 only out of love for BW. Likewise with the follow-up posts about MavercK's pathing changes and SC2BW. To keep with your DotA analogy, it's like responding to a thread about moving a creep camp on turtle rock slightly closer to a given main (with a given test map and reasoning as to why the change is useful) by suggesting that Rikimaru should be added to TFT because he sure would be a great hero. As far as it matters, MavercK's attempt is breaking the pathing to make it "more BW-like" -- which is the point of his BROOD WAR REMAKE, -- whereas the OP is just adjusting the size of the existing magic box to keep the units from clumping so aggressively. That's what I mean when I say it's "misguided", and that's how I'd describe most of the last two pages here talking about the SC2BW video, too. A very small change to how armies are currently controlled is a completely different topic from what's shown in those videos. They aren't the same class of change at all. I think this is also what netherh was trying to say with Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 20:50 netherh wrote:
You can't pretend like making the AI worse is an actual solution to anything (other than nostalgia for BW players).
Although opinions will vary about whether or not this is making the pathing AI better or worse, it has nothing to do with the OP's MM maps. It doesn't belong here. It even seems a little unfair to even bring them up here, I think, because the people praising the changes in SC2BW aren't going to be testing MM maps, due to them being so significantly different/disconnected.
But... we're not changing it purely out of love for BW. Many people have already pointed out that it looks a lot more spectator friendly.
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On July 07 2012 23:35 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 04:11 Plexa wrote:Dno if it has been mentioned in this thread yet, but... imo it would probably be better if something like the magic box from BW was implemented. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_BoxesIf units were within those boxes (one is for air, other ground) then they would stay in formation. Outside, they would ball up. This is exactly how it works in in Sc2. The magic boxes in sc2 seem to be a bit smaller. All the MM mod does is that it makes the magic box very big.
Yupp, the sc2 editor has 2 values for the magic box.
Magic Box for ground units = Formation Diameter (Mixed)
Magic Box for air units = Formation Diameter (Air)
Standard setting is 6 for ground and 8 for air, the op changed the one for ground units to 50.
Some pictures for magic boxes in sc2 (spoilered):
+ Show Spoiler +Marines placed at a distance of 5, click goes outside the magic box: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/15lnp.jpg) The result is they stay in formation: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lhWpQ.jpg) Distance is now 6, thats too big for the magic box: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mhLYt.jpg) so the marines don't keep formation: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nTGX9.jpg) Both boxes for air and ground units (approximately): ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dvj3u.jpg)
Units in magic box, move command inside magic box -> no formation
Units in magic box, move command outside magix box -> formation
Units not in magic box, move command in/outside magic box -> no formation
Also unit size does matter. Replace the observers with banshees in the exact same positions in the image above and they won't fit in the magic box any more.
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Informative post. Thanks Gawk. As already posted more info can be found here http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_Boxes
On July 08 2012 09:27 MinusPlus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 01:32 Archerofaiur wrote:
What is misguided about supporting the custom map scene as a vehicle for creating the game the community wants to play? One only need to look at DOTA. The part that's misguided is bringing up radical overhauls to the game in a thread focused on implementing only a minor tweak for usability. That is not what this thread is about. Comparing the two is only giving credibility to the people accusing the OP & supporters of trying to change SC2 only out of love for BW. Likewise with the follow-up posts about MavercK's pathing changes and SC2BW. To keep with your DotA analogy, it's like responding to a thread about moving a creep camp on turtle rock slightly closer to a given main (with a given test map and reasoning as to why the change is useful) by suggesting that Rikimaru should be added to TFT because he sure would be a great hero. As far as it matters, MavercK's attempt is breaking the pathing to make it "more BW-like" -- which is the point of his BROOD WAR REMAKE, -- whereas the OP is just adjusting the size of the existing magic box to keep the units from clumping so aggressively. That's what I mean when I say it's "misguided", and that's how I'd describe most of the last two pages here talking about the SC2BW video, too. A very small change to how armies are currently controlled is a completely different topic from what's shown in those videos. They aren't the same class of change at all. I think this is also what netherh was trying to say with Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 20:50 netherh wrote:
You can't pretend like making the AI worse is an actual solution to anything (other than nostalgia for BW players).
Although opinions will vary about whether or not this is making the pathing AI better or worse, it has nothing to do with the OP's MM maps. It doesn't belong here. It even seems a little unfair to even bring them up here, I think, because the people praising the changes in SC2BW aren't going to be testing MM maps, due to them being so significantly different/disconnected.
The problem is that a mod with a minor change is unable to generate the DOTA critical mass. The FRB is a good example of this. However if you bundle a bunch of the features that the community wants into a new game mode and new expeirence than you have a much better chance the community will start playing it en mass.
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Why don't the units outside the magic box just clump back up into the magic box, instead of clumping into the center point?
Considering how many units you are able to select in SC2 shouldn't the magic boxes be bigger? That is kind of the effect of unlimiting things you have to make things bigger so there is room for everything.
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Magic boxes take up less screen area in SC2 than in BW and with the increased unit selection cap doubling or tripling the "Formation Diameter" values seems pretty reasonable. Even 50% would help.
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EPT
