There will obviously be balance shifts when gameplay values are changed. Nobody is claiming otherwise. This thread is about the effect these changes have on the clarity and spectator-friendliness of SC2.
On July 07 2012 14:32 erazerr wrote: wouldn't this remove a lot of the splitting micro required in the game ? I.E Marines vs banelings would be a hilarious joke?
Yep!
Unless you make the splash radius and/or damage ridiculous on most of the splash units, which would in turn make them hilariously powerful against worker lines and the like. Zergling battles in particular would be much more random as well with the movement alone-- zergling/baneling wars would just get silly.
edit: corrected grammar
When i read posts like these two, this is what comes to my mind:
On July 05 2012 01:04 Apolo wrote: Most people that are aggainst this seem to always say the same thing:
"It takes out the skill of splitting units in the middle of a battle"
Which to me is exactly the same as people were saying about automining, rally points, and so on. Watching a player fight aggainst the computer's mechanics is nothing to be amazed at. The units clump automatically independent of the player's skill. It's as cool to watch MKP split marines as it's cool to watch Bisu click on 10 gateways in 1s. Cool trick, but nothing more than just overcoming a handicap of the game.
Nevertheless, with this mod you can still watch splitting. It just is calculated and premeditated. A player can always clump his marines so the zerg makes banelings. But then he splits them in the last minute, to make the banes cost inefective. On the other hand, we can see much more tactical positions with the army. Players would know that they're not wasting actions by spreading units in a specific way like it happens now because they wouldn't disappear by a move command.
Also, this would be good for those that complain the defenders advantage is too small and should be bigger: we see many players making a beautiful concave when they're expecting an attack. Then the attacker baits, the defender clicks in and his units move. Boom. All his work wasted. The units got clumped again and he has to redo it all over if he wants to defend with a concave. At that time the attacker can now go knowing the defender is clumped and his advantage minimized.
For those that complain about balance as well. It's true. It would most likely unbalance the game in unexpected ways. But you can't theorize about it without even seeing it in action. Months ago Idra said Stephano's style would be figured out and he would go back to his place. If even him can be so wrong about a complete style of the race he plays, who are you to come here say this will break the game? And even if it indeed breaks the game, i believe it's in the best interest of Blizzard to see the long term future, and HoTS is a great opportunity to test it, at least in beta. As many people have said it looks and feels more natural and epic with the units spread out. Imagine the amount of tactis pre splitting could bring to pro play. As a spectator that would make me want to watch this game more.
And just as a final request: Mentioning the word BW in any context, question or statement, will only have Blizzard guys' brains flip up and say "Broodwar is a great game, and you can go play it if you want." There's no use to use that word, because apparently they don't want to have anything to do with it, it only seems to put out those premade replies and completely ignore the question.
On July 06 2012 23:26 LaLuSh wrote: For some reason, how long a worker spends mining a mineral field can't be changed in the editor. This has led the community to try fewer resource nodes per base, lower yield mining and other convoluted solutions to a problem that has an obvious fix (except it's not available in the editor).
It's possible, i did it in my own experiments with data editor.
How? Some guy pointed to the OP. But as far as I can tell the OP only talks about tweaking unit formation settings, not about mining.
I've searched around a lot for this and haven't found it.
On July 07 2012 14:32 erazerr wrote: wouldn't this remove a lot of the splitting micro required in the game ? I.E Marines vs banelings would be a hilarious joke?
Yep!
Unless you make the splash radius and/or damage ridiculous on most of the splash units, which would in turn make them hilariously powerful against worker lines and the like. Zergling battles in particular would be much more random as well with the movement alone-- zergling/baneling wars would just get silly.
edit: corrected grammar
AoE damage is going to be "ridiculous" (=OP) only if there is no way for a player to counteract it. Thus this is the second leg for making such a change viable.
As it stands a terran mech player HAS TO focus all of his tanks on one area of the map. They are weak in small numbers and couldnt really scare off a determined attack from Zerglings due to the speed and rate of fire. Each tank can get off about one shot and then they are swarmed by Zerglings ... and then the tanks start to kill each other with friendly fire. This whole "you HAVE TO put all your eggs into one basket" thing is bad, because it makes them weak to run-bys and will result in a meching player losing instantly after losing his main army simply because he cant reproduce the important tanks before losing the bases. This is one of the reasons why mech is rather weak atm.
----
One thing I would have wished for - especially for siege tanks - is the ability to "attack the ground". With it you could basically keep a choke point under constant fire and prevent the usual "overkill concentrated fire" we have atm. I would rather have 20 Zerglings on 5 hp pass a choke point to be slaughtered by Marines than have them be killed by several tank shots only to let the next bunch of 20 Zerglings pass through totally unharmed. Zerg have too many "automated and free" units already to trigger those important tank shots and there should be a countermeasure as well. It should make all thos idiots happy who whine that dynamic unit movement would "kill all micro" by adding a new option for it. Since siege tank fire does hurt your own troops it should be totally fine from a balance standpoint as well.
On July 06 2012 23:26 LaLuSh wrote: For some reason, how long a worker spends mining a mineral field can't be changed in the editor. This has led the community to try fewer resource nodes per base, lower yield mining and other convoluted solutions to a problem that has an obvious fix (except it's not available in the editor).
It's possible, i did it in my own experiments with data editor.
How? Some guy pointed to the OP. But as far as I can tell the OP only talks about tweaking unit formation settings, not about mining.
I've searched around a lot for this and haven't found it.
mineral patches have a behavior on them, edit this behavior.
On July 07 2012 17:25 coolcor wrote: Hey check out what the guy making sc2bw just came up with for movement.
Think this would do a better job of getting rid of the deathball?
I know people have been praising this, but to me it looks hideous.
Look at the stuttering. Look at the units getting stuck on one another. Look at how everything gets caught on the slightest edges. This doesn't solve the problem of death-balls, it just makes it a pain in the arse to move your army around.
Maybe this is how things were in BW, but I'd quit SC2 instantly if the AI became like this.
You can't pretend like making the AI worse is an actual solution to anything (other than nostalgia for BW players).
Think this would do a better job of getting rid of the deathball?
I know people have been praising this, but to me it looks hideous.
Look at the stuttering. Look at the units getting stuck on one another. Look at how everything gets caught on the slightest edges. This doesn't solve the problem of death-balls, it just makes it a pain in the arse to move your army around.
Maybe this is how things were in BW, but I'd quit SC2 instantly if the AI became like this.
You can't pretend like making the AI worse is an actual solution to anything (other than nostalgia for BW players).
False the AI is not getting down graded and also it's only changing the formation of the units instead of putting them up in one big blob formation . I don't see any problem moving your armies using this modified movement test for sc2 for example just take a look at the presenter mouse click to a certain destination it seems really effortless and there is no additional need to micro your units over a "ramp". Sounds like you hate something that is going to improve the game visually for spectators.
Think this would do a better job of getting rid of the deathball?
I know people have been praising this, but to me it looks hideous.
Look at the stuttering. Look at the units getting stuck on one another. Look at how everything gets caught on the slightest edges. This doesn't solve the problem of death-balls, it just makes it a pain in the arse to move your army around.
Maybe this is how things were in BW, but I'd quit SC2 instantly if the AI became like this.
You can't pretend like making the AI worse is an actual solution to anything (other than nostalgia for BW players).
False the AI is not getting down graded and also it's only changing the formation of the units instead of putting them up in one big blob formation . I don't see any problem moving your armies using this modified movement test for sc2 for example just take a look at the presenter mouse click to a certain destination it seems really effortless and there is no additional need to micro your units over a "ramp". Sounds like you hate something that is going to improve the game visually for spectators.
Did you watch the video?
I'm not talking about the OPs movement thing here, but the sc2bw one.
Think this would do a better job of getting rid of the deathball?
I know people have been praising this, but to me it looks hideous.
Look at the stuttering. Look at the units getting stuck on one another. Look at how everything gets caught on the slightest edges. This doesn't solve the problem of death-balls, it just makes it a pain in the arse to move your army around.
Maybe this is how things were in BW, but I'd quit SC2 instantly if the AI became like this.
You can't pretend like making the AI worse is an actual solution to anything (other than nostalgia for BW players).
False the AI is not getting down graded and also it's only changing the formation of the units instead of putting them up in one big blob formation . I don't see any problem moving your armies using this modified movement test for sc2 for example just take a look at the presenter mouse click to a certain destination it seems really effortless and there is no additional need to micro your units over a "ramp". Sounds like you hate something that is going to improve the game visually for spectators.
Did you watch the video?
I'm not talking about the OPs movement thing here, but the sc2bw one.
Looks the same nothing change . What's your problem ?
Think this would do a better job of getting rid of the deathball?
Looks the same nothing change . What's your problem ?
"Mellow greetings. What seems to be your boggle?"
Watch the video. Then note the points I made about it in my post.
I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post.
On July 07 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote: I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post.
At this point I'm happy to conclude that you're either blind, or trolling.
Watch the default sc2 movement in the sc2bw video. See how it's nice and smooth. Now watch the later movement. See how half the units actually stop moving at the corners, and it takes at least 3 times as long for them to negotiate the ramps.
Think this would do a better job of getting rid of the deathball?
Looks the same nothing change . What's your problem ?
"Mellow greetings. What seems to be your boggle?"
Watch the video. Then note the points I made about it in my post.
I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post.
the original video with a ramp would look no different than default. units would still lather up in oil and slide through it no problem.
my attempt at it is a little different. if a unit is moving forward and it encounters another unit infront of it. it will stop and wait for a quarter of a second and then it will try again. normally after it tries again it will try to take a new path. mine doesn't do this yet. they simply wait and wait and wait. so it's not perfect. yet.
the idea is simple, you are not going to get a nice concave if you just a-move. your army will not be at it's most efficient when moving around (seems about right dont it?)
i like it alot better. positioning is much more important as is awareness.
i did a test with my mod, i put 7 siege tanks in siege mode and a-moved 200 marines into them. every marine died and not a scratch on any of the tanks. i did the same thing but spread them out and did my best to make a concave. i killed all the tanks fairly easily. i think this is a nice dynamic and creates a large disparity between a low and high skilled player. a high skilled player might be able to break that tank line with superior play. while a low skilled player would get demolished.
Think this would do a better job of getting rid of the deathball?
Looks the same nothing change . What's your problem ?
"Mellow greetings. What seems to be your boggle?"
Watch the video. Then note the points I made about it in my post.
I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post.
The SC2BW one is more the inclusion of unit collisions and less the dynamic movement -.-
Units in the MM maps clump together through corners, a lighter version of the unit collisions might help some. The unit collisions did its job to de-clump things through the corners, but it really slowed everything down and made getting around it really bad looking. Although that was just because he A moved, could have been better with more micro, which is the overall goal of all this.
On July 07 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote: I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post.
At this point I'm happy to conclude that you're either blind, or trolling.
Watch the default sc2 movement in the sc2bw video. See how it's nice and smooth. Now watch the later movement. See how half the units actually stop moving at the corners, and it takes at least 3 times as long for them to negotiate the ramps.
So let me get this straight if you don't like the idea of units moving slowly through the ramp with the sc2 bw mods although the units are more spread out than the default mode . Than don't install it and play sc2 in default mode. I don't see the need to hate the mod .
Think this would do a better job of getting rid of the deathball?
Looks the same nothing change . What's your problem ?
"Mellow greetings. What seems to be your boggle?"
Watch the video. Then note the points I made about it in my post.
I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post.
the original video with a ramp would look no different than default. units would still lather up in oil and slide through it no problem.
my attempt at it is a little different. if a unit is moving forward and it encounters another unit infront of it. it will stop and wait for a quarter of a second and then it will try again. normally after it tries again it will try to take a new path. mine doesn't do this yet. they simply wait and wait and wait. so it's not perfect. yet.
the idea is simple, you are not going to get a nice concave if you just a-move. your army will not be at it's most efficient when moving around (seems about right dont it?)
i like it alot better. positioning is much more important as is awareness.
i did a test with my mod, i put 7 siege tanks in siege mode and a-moved 200 marines into them. every marine died and not a scratch on any of the tanks. i did the same thing but spread them out and did my best to make a concave. i killed all the tanks fairly easily. i think this is a nice dynamic and creates a large disparity between a low and high skilled player. a high skilled player might be able to break that tank line with superior play. while a low skilled player would get demolished.
On July 07 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote: I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post.
At this point I'm happy to conclude that you're either blind, or trolling.
Watch the default sc2 movement in the sc2bw video. See how it's nice and smooth. Now watch the later movement. See how half the units actually stop moving at the corners, and it takes at least 3 times as long for them to negotiate the ramps.
So let me get this straight if you don't like the idea of units moving slowly through the ramp with the sc2 bw mods although the units are more spread out than the default mode . Than don't install it and play sc2 in default mode. I don't see the need to hate the mod .
This is the last time I reply to you, since you're so determined to troll.
I'm not hating the mod. If you want something that plays like BW, that's fine. It's great that people mod SC2, and do whatever they want to do with it.
However, people appear to be discussing improvements to the standard SC2 AI in this thread. I'm saying that the sc2bw one should not be a candidate for this because of the points I made, although I would be interested to see it with the changes MavercK mentions.
It seems that the main objective of the OP's modified movement was to make it easier to keep units in formation. This arguably improves viewer experience and player experience as less micro to keep units spread out while moving. At the same time, the need to constantly spread / reshape your army while moving is the only thing removed. Other aspects of micro remain the same.
MavercK seems to be focussed on doing the opposite - increasing the amount of micro required to do basic things like move around the map. I don't agree that this is necessary or beneficial for standard SC2. There's already a vast amount that can be done by a skilled player to improve engagements (whether that's positional awareness / map vision or unit micro (splitting / concaves / AOE avoidance / focus fire etc.)).
Hmmm from inspection from the SC2:BW one, it seems that there is not enough spacing between the units? Thus they bump into each other alot more, and thus it looks sortof ugly.
When you tell marines to go from one place to another one that is really far away, they will line up in a single file, and they will have a certain amount of space between each one. It's easy to describe but I don't actually know what causes them to have said spacing.
EDIT: On closer inspection, BW units actually bump into each other alot, perhaps it's not as noticeable because they are still in the "run" animation when they collide...
EDIT2: or maybe it's because there were like 50 marines in the video. I've been watching games where just a small handful of marines were being moved around.
EDIT3: Or maybe it has to do w/ the difference in radius and the model size. Clump marines look less clumped even when manually clumped in BW than they do in SC2.
On July 07 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote: I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post.
At this point I'm happy to conclude that you're either blind, or trolling.
Watch the default sc2 movement in the sc2bw video. See how it's nice and smooth. Now watch the later movement. See how half the units actually stop moving at the corners, and it takes at least 3 times as long for them to negotiate the ramps.
So let me get this straight if you don't like the idea of units moving slowly through the ramp with the sc2 bw mods although the units are more spread out than the default mode . Than don't install it and play sc2 in default mode. I don't see the need to hate the mod .
This is the last time I reply to you, since you're so determined to troll.
I'm not hating the mod. If you want something that plays like BW, that's fine. It's great that people mod SC2, and do whatever they want to do with it.
However, people appear to be discussing improvements to the standard SC2 AI in this thread. I'm saying that the sc2bw one should not be a candidate for this because of the points I made, although I would be interested to see it with the changes MavercK mentions.
It seems that the main objective of the OP's modified movement was to make it easier to keep units in formation. This arguably improves viewer experience and player experience as less micro to keep units spread out while moving. At the same time, the need to constantly spread / reshape your army while moving is the only thing removed. Other aspects of micro remain the same.
MavercK seems to be focussed on doing the opposite - increasing the amount of micro required to do basic things like move around the map. I don't agree that this is necessary or beneficial for standard SC2. There's already a vast amount that can be done by a skilled player to improve engagements (whether that's positional awareness / map vision or unit micro (splitting / concaves / AOE avoidance / focus fire etc.)).
I disagree with you on that point and have already stated from the post previously that there is no sign that players will have difficulty moving across the map with his modification also there is no additional micro in doing so . If you click the unit to go above the ramp the units will accomplish that objective there is no need to micro it as if goliaths are walking up the ramp in broodwar.
On July 07 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote: I have already check both the video one in the op post and the sc2 bw one the only difference is the op one he didn't test it with a ramp while the sc2bw had it tested the units passing through the ramp . I see no signs of AI degradation you have already posted in your post.
At this point I'm happy to conclude that you're either blind, or trolling.
Watch the default sc2 movement in the sc2bw video. See how it's nice and smooth. Now watch the later movement. See how half the units actually stop moving at the corners, and it takes at least 3 times as long for them to negotiate the ramps.
So let me get this straight if you don't like the idea of units moving slowly through the ramp with the sc2 bw mods although the units are more spread out than the default mode . Than don't install it and play sc2 in default mode. I don't see the need to hate the mod .
This is the last time I reply to you, since you're so determined to troll.
I'm not hating the mod. If you want something that plays like BW, that's fine. It's great that people mod SC2, and do whatever they want to do with it.
However, people appear to be discussing improvements to the standard SC2 AI in this thread. I'm saying that the sc2bw one should not be a candidate for this because of the points I made, although I would be interested to see it with the changes MavercK mentions.
It seems that the main objective of the OP's modified movement was to make it easier to keep units in formation. This arguably improves viewer experience and player experience as less micro to keep units spread out while moving. At the same time, the need to constantly spread / reshape your army while moving is the only thing removed. Other aspects of micro remain the same.
MavercK seems to be focussed on doing the opposite - increasing the amount of micro required to do basic things like move around the map. I don't agree that this is necessary or beneficial for standard SC2. There's already a vast amount that can be done by a skilled player to improve engagements (whether that's positional awareness / map vision or unit micro (splitting / concaves / AOE avoidance / focus fire etc.)).
I disagree with you on that point and have already stated from the post previously that there is no sign that players will have difficulty moving across the map with his modification also there is no additional micro in doing so . If you click the unit to go above the ramp the units will accomplish that objective there is no need to micro it as if goliaths are walking up the ramp in broodwar.
yea... it's not like im making you pull off some sick micro to get units up a ramp or else half wont make it. it's more. you might move your army from one side of the map to the other and it will become vulnerable and be out of position. it wont be ready for a fight in this state.
Wow Maverick that movement video is beautiful. Especially the zergling movement, a lot more swarmy imo. If you could fix that tiny glitch when units run into a ramp so it doesnt look so clipped, its really weird like that.
Also, does editor allow you to increase hitboxes of units? When they clump theyre still too tight together for my taste. Id make it only a tad bigger.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Iu76i.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CWPtz.png)
