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Modified Movement Test - Page 31

Forum Index > SC2 General
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There will obviously be balance shifts when gameplay values are changed. Nobody is claiming otherwise. This thread is about the effect these changes have on the clarity and spectator-friendliness of SC2.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
July 06 2012 21:51 GMT
#601
On July 07 2012 06:46 netherh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2012 04:11 Plexa wrote:
Dno if it has been mentioned in this thread yet, but... imo it would probably be better if something like the magic box from BW was implemented. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_Boxes

If units were within those boxes (one is for air, other ground) then they would stay in formation. Outside, they would ball up.


Erm. Isn't this exactly how it works in SC2 at the moment?


no, sc2 units will always ball at target click point
starleague forever
netherh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom333 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-06 21:58:18
July 06 2012 21:54 GMT
#602
On July 07 2012 06:51 a176 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2012 06:46 netherh wrote:
On July 07 2012 04:11 Plexa wrote:
Dno if it has been mentioned in this thread yet, but... imo it would probably be better if something like the magic box from BW was implemented. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_Boxes

If units were within those boxes (one is for air, other ground) then they would stay in formation. Outside, they would ball up.


Erm. Isn't this exactly how it works in SC2 at the moment?


no, sc2 units will always ball at target click point


No. They don't.

Every unit has a magic box. If you click inside the box, they move in, and outside then they move alongside one another (so long as they're inside the magic box size). Try it out. It's like 10 marines wide, 3 for seige tanks, 5 for medivacs (I'm not sure those are all correct numbers, it's been a while since I did this, but there is a magic box).

If they're further apart than (or there's more units than fit in) the magic box, they'll move inwards while going towards the target point (which is why minimap clicking keeps units more spread out - the target point is just further away).
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
July 06 2012 22:00 GMT
#603
From a spectating point of view, this change is a clear winner. It looks way better than what we have in WOL.
MMA: The true King of Wings
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-06 22:05:58
July 06 2012 22:04 GMT
#604
If you can change the time workers take to mine you can change the income curve and the income per base in potentially positive ways, it's a small adjustment with huge implications. I mean, there are a lot of variables that can be tweaked and influence clumping behavior for instance, think of collision size or the tweak proposed in this set of maps. Blizzard saying they "can't make the path finding worse" is a bit of a copout, since just in the margins there are so many small things to change that can have a positive impact yet don't require overhauling the path finding algorithms.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11349 Posts
July 06 2012 22:12 GMT
#605
On July 07 2012 06:54 netherh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2012 06:51 a176 wrote:
On July 07 2012 06:46 netherh wrote:
On July 07 2012 04:11 Plexa wrote:
Dno if it has been mentioned in this thread yet, but... imo it would probably be better if something like the magic box from BW was implemented. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_Boxes

If units were within those boxes (one is for air, other ground) then they would stay in formation. Outside, they would ball up.


Erm. Isn't this exactly how it works in SC2 at the moment?


no, sc2 units will always ball at target click point


No. They don't.

Every unit has a magic box. If you click inside the box, they move in, and outside then they move alongside one another (so long as they're inside the magic box size). Try it out. It's like 10 marines wide, 3 for seige tanks, 5 for medivacs (I'm not sure those are all correct numbers, it's been a while since I did this, but there is a magic box).

If they're further apart than (or there's more units than fit in) the magic box, they'll move inwards while going towards the target point (which is why minimap clicking keeps units more spread out - the target point is just further away).

I think the issue is it's much too small. 10marines wide is pretty narrow considering how close units pack together. I was trying the difference between dragoon magic box and stalker magic box (as well as testing zealots and ht) and it must be much smaller than I thought because I couldn't get the same easy spread as in BW.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Singrana
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway7 Posts
July 07 2012 00:07 GMT
#606
longtime lurker here: i realy liked this change, and i dont know if it has already been said in earlier 30 pages, but if annyone who reads this knows how to get this to the attention of day9 (or other pupular sc2 webshows) we could bring it to the attention of most of the stream watching public, and in so doing get to test it with many more players (think funday mondays only with this played in serious mode)

personally would love to have this in sc2, but only way that happens is if its tested by many people and gain popularity first

also, make sure annyone who does this explains the package deal of this + an aoe adjustment, so it does not appear to be some crackpot idea to break the game
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
July 07 2012 00:22 GMT
#607
On July 07 2012 09:07 Singrana wrote:
longtime lurker here: i realy liked this change, and i dont know if it has already been said in earlier 30 pages, but if annyone who reads this knows how to get this to the attention of day9 (or other pupular sc2 webshows) we could bring it to the attention of most of the stream watching public, and in so doing get to test it with many more players (think funday mondays only with this played in serious mode)

personally would love to have this in sc2, but only way that happens is if its tested by many people and gain popularity first

also, make sure annyone who does this explains the package deal of this + an aoe adjustment, so it does not appear to be some crackpot idea to break the game


Or better yet, the next person that interviews the Blizz guys (Browder, Kim, Sagaty), ask them what they think about the proposed change. If they insist on keeping the WOL movement, then ask them why.
MMA: The true King of Wings
Singrana
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway7 Posts
July 07 2012 00:34 GMT
#608
this would be a good thing, but an interview most of the time does not press an issue, only ask on the surface briefly before moving to a new question.
if this map could be a flavor of the month thing for many players (pro players also); then we would have good evidence of this mechanic working or not, while at the same time informing as many people as possible of the existence of this proposal and creating discussions ( <-- this would also happen with an interwiev)

if somehow we can get most people to at least try this, and have enough pro matches to get proof it does not screw the game, then i think there would be a chance of convincing blizz if players want it after trying, but if people do not try it then the only way it could be implemented is if Bowder himself came up with this idea and decided to enforce it on everyone (dont think this wil happen)
Mothra
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States1448 Posts
July 07 2012 00:40 GMT
#609
I would really really like to see this implemented. At least make it an option. The game would be so much more fun to watch.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 14:12:54
July 07 2012 02:32 GMT
#610
Maverick has been working on improved movement for his SC2 BW Mod






http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145316
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
July 07 2012 04:23 GMT
#611
On July 07 2012 09:34 Singrana wrote:
if this map could be a flavor of the month thing for many players (pro players also); then we would have good evidence of this mechanic working or not, while at the same time informing as many people as possible of the existence of this proposal and creating discussions

Big publicity for this discussion would be increased from exposure, which could be achieved through two methods IMO:

1. Day[9] has enough analytical power to look at the differences between the basic SC2 movement AI and this modified movement mod. If he could be made to "have a look" for a week or two it could be enough exposure.

2. Pro players would never "waste" their time for something which does not benefit them. The only way to achieve this would be to have a small tournament which isnt connected to a series, the SHOUTcraft tournament comes to mind there. Smaller tournaments with "B-pros" could work as well.

The movement modification alone will not be good enough for this kind of "public presentation" though, an adjustment for AoE effects has to be included as well as an enducement to actually use it.
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
July 07 2012 04:31 GMT
#612
On July 07 2012 13:23 Rabiator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2012 09:34 Singrana wrote:
if this map could be a flavor of the month thing for many players (pro players also); then we would have good evidence of this mechanic working or not, while at the same time informing as many people as possible of the existence of this proposal and creating discussions

Big publicity for this discussion would be increased from exposure, which could be achieved through two methods IMO:

1. Day[9] has enough analytical power to look at the differences between the basic SC2 movement AI and this modified movement mod. If he could be made to "have a look" for a week or two it could be enough exposure.

2. Pro players would never "waste" their time for something which does not benefit them. The only way to achieve this would be to have a small tournament which isnt connected to a series, the SHOUTcraft tournament comes to mind there. Smaller tournaments with "B-pros" could work as well.

The movement modification alone will not be good enough for this kind of "public presentation" though, an adjustment for AoE effects has to be included as well as an enducement to actually use it.


I'd say that this can totally keep the BW players happy.

Maverk's BW Mod + the Hybridic Graphic Settings + Modified Dynamics Movement = Pretty much BW on modern graphics.

For that reason, I support this cause. Its the best of both worlds really.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
stormchaser
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada1009 Posts
July 07 2012 04:34 GMT
#613
On July 07 2012 11:32 Archerofaiur wrote:
Maverick has been working on improved movement for his SC2 BW Mod



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eY_6hKIi_c&feature=youtu.be

Wow this is actually fantastic. We won't ever see it in a retail product however ;;
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
July 07 2012 04:55 GMT
#614
On July 07 2012 13:34 stormchaser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2012 11:32 Archerofaiur wrote:
Maverick has been working on improved movement for his SC2 BW Mod



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eY_6hKIi_c&feature=youtu.be

Wow this is actually fantastic. We won't ever see it in a retail product however ;;


Never say never man.

If the community rallies together for this idea, our passions grows because we are emotionally connected for one single cause. This could bridge the two StarCraft communities as one. Hence, growing ESPORT!
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
July 07 2012 05:04 GMT
#615
If HotS sales drop significantly because they don't then they'll probably be forced to consider it.
P7GAB
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada486 Posts
July 07 2012 05:24 GMT
#616
On July 07 2012 14:04 0neder wrote:
If HotS sales drop significantly because they don't then they'll probably be forced to consider it.


i doubt people wont buy hots because of this
erazerr
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia86 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 05:35:53
July 07 2012 05:32 GMT
#617
wouldn't this remove a lot of the splitting micro required in the game ? I.E Marines vs banelings would be a hilarious joke?
RampancyTW
Profile Joined August 2010
United States577 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 06:05:19
July 07 2012 06:04 GMT
#618
On July 07 2012 14:32 erazerr wrote:
wouldn't this remove a lot of the splitting micro required in the game ? I.E Marines vs banelings would be a hilarious joke?
Yep!

Unless you make the splash radius and/or damage ridiculous on most of the splash units, which would in turn make them hilariously powerful against worker lines and the like. Zergling battles in particular would be much more random as well with the movement alone-- zergling/baneling wars would just get silly.

edit: corrected grammar
Super_bricklayer
Profile Joined May 2010
France104 Posts
July 07 2012 07:21 GMT
#619
On July 07 2012 15:04 RampancyTW wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2012 14:32 erazerr wrote:
wouldn't this remove a lot of the splitting micro required in the game ? I.E Marines vs banelings would be a hilarious joke?
Yep!

Unless you make the splash radius and/or damage ridiculous on most of the splash units, which would in turn make them hilariously powerful against worker lines and the like. Zergling battles in particular would be much more random as well with the movement alone-- zergling/baneling wars would just get silly.

edit: corrected grammar

I don't know how people can be so sure about that. Did you test the map honestly ?

I did and and i'm certain of only one thing, it need some test. Not even sure we should balance splash damage.

For example, marines would still be more efficient DPS wise when clumped ( more marines will shoot, increasing their efficiency ), but if fungal/baneling come in play then the player would have the possibility to split them before any engagement and ( possibly ) move while staying in formation. Let's say the Terran player use this new option.
Then the zerg player could also split is ling/bane/infestor before and run in the enemies lines when this one stand in an open space, make the tank shoot less effective ( marines would also take down less units before those one could attack in melee, they'll may get surrounded easily ).

All that is theorycrafting. We can't be sure of anything, it may actually be useless and change nothing as it could need a significant buff to splash or maybe just wider maps. In any case it's looks way better, armys looks bigger and more badass and it's allow more tactical possibilities.
coolcor
Profile Joined February 2011
520 Posts
July 07 2012 08:25 GMT
#620
Hey check out what the guy making sc2bw just came up with for movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eY_6hKIi_c

Think this would do a better job of getting rid of the deathball?
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