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There will obviously be balance shifts when gameplay values are changed. Nobody is claiming otherwise. This thread is about the effect these changes have on the clarity and spectator-friendliness of SC2. |
On July 04 2012 03:47 ptrpb wrote:
what a load of crap.
"i don't like unit clumping because it's ugly, i dont think anyone else likes it"
you even say "i don't even watch SC2 anymore" and you try to make it more like BW.
no, this is not what SC2 "needs". what you need to do is find something you like because you clearly don't like SC2.
This thread has nothing to do with wanting to make SC2 more like BW. It is several people agreeing that clumping is ugly and, more importantly, detrimental to both gameplay and viewing experience. Whether you like it or not, BW has proven to be a great RTS game and esport lasting around 10 years. Naturally, if we want the same thing to happen to SC2 we can look at the elements that made BW so successful and take inspiration. People have given good arguments as to why this should be implemented, "BW has it" isn't one of them of course ^^
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Canada11513 Posts
On July 04 2012 03:45 Omegalisk wrote:
So... infinite range magic box?
I don't really see the improvement. It won't remove deathballs; it will only make them deathsquares (plus, when units move through a choke, the clump up again). Overall, I just don't see how this fixes anything.
I don't know about your last part, but just playing around a little bit and then going back and forth between it and BW... I still think fixing SC2's magic box is better. If your select box is too little it clumps and if your select box is too big it will clump, but if you select inbetween you can keep your units in formation. It rewards accuracy and punishes sloppy play.
I'm not convinced of infinite range magic box, but at least it demonstrates what spread out units would look like.
I don't know if it will change the amount of micro required- need to add moving shot for that. But it certainly looks like it could make things much more spectator friendly and allow for more interesting flanking maneuvers.
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Why do people not understand that if you increase the effectiveness of area of effect and you apply this change, you still have to split your marines just like you did before? Have you people ever even watched BW? BW had unit movement similar (not exactly like it, since another important aspect is that units actually bump into each other instead of sliding right through each other) like this and we all know how bw requires a lot more skill than easy mode sc2 (when it comes to micro).
Unless you've micro'd scourges, mutalisks, marines, dragoons, vultures,.... as if you're life depends on it, you have no authority here to disprove that brood war requires a lot more babysitting and attention as well as allowing a lot more micro tricks and so on.
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Man it looks so much better, i really hate how units clump up in SC2 =/.
Implement this Blizzard!!!
Yes AoE dmg will be less effective, just buff the AoE damage.....
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On July 04 2012 03:59 LoKi- wrote:
It seems strange that so many people criticize SC2 for being 'easier' than Brood War, yet there is huge community outlash against one of the most significant changes from BW that actually makes SC2 the one that requires way more skill. With a unit clumping change, unit splits and micro adjustments against AOE becomes so much less fundamental that I think we'd see even MORE a-moving, not less, leading to even more stale engagements and one-sided games decided entirely on army composition. Am I missing something here?
I think you, as well as a lot of people against this idea, assume that with formations, there will be no microing during actual battles. I don't think this assumption is correct.
As well, everyone assumes (or is placing heavy emphasis on) the only micro is min/maxing AoE damage. If this is the only micro you are looking at, of course you think this is going to destroy any micro and make things 'easy'.
On July 04 2012 04:09 wcr.4fun wrote:
Why do people not understand that if you increase the effectiveness of area of effect and you apply this change, you still have to split your marines just like you did before? Have you people ever even watched BW? BW had unit movement similar (not exactly like it, since another important aspect is that units actually bump into each other instead of sliding right through each other) like this and we all know how bw requires a lot more skill than easy mode sc2 (when it comes to micro).
Unless you've micro'd scourges, mutalisks, marines, dragoons, vultures,.... as if you're life depends on it, you have no authority here to disprove that brood war requires a lot more babysitting and attention as well as allowing a lot more micro tricks and so on.
I agree.
I still think there needs to be some games played and uploaded.
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I think this may be detrimental to the game. Unit control AND positioning are a huge part of micromanagement, and this mod would simplify it, aka dumb it down. Sc2 units tend to clump, well tough luck. In BW they tend to do shit all the time, and it didn't prevent the players from using them in a effective and spectacular way.
BW players constantly have to invest a lot of effort in micromanagement; they have to battle the inconvenient AI and prevent units from doing stupid stuff (such as the pathfinding). In fact, this is one of the things that make BW's skill ceiling so high, from what I gather.
Similarly, I don't mind Sc2 players having to produce more effort in micromanagement; battling the inconvenient AI and preventing units from doing stupid stuff (such as clumping together).
Nothing prevents the players from manually and individually managing their units before and during engagements. I understand that it can be very difficult in Sc2 considering the pace of the game, though.
edit: I meant to say during, not after
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On July 04 2012 04:36 Al Bundy wrote:
I think this may be detrimental to the game. Unit control AND positioning are a huge part of micromanagement, and this mod would simplify it, aka dumb it down. Sc2 units tend to clump, well tough luck. In BW they tend to do shit all the time, and it didn't prevent the players from using them in a effective and spectacular way.
BW players constantly have to invest a lot of effort in micromanagement; they have to battle the inconvenient AI and prevent units from doing stupid stuff (such as the pathfinding). In fact, this is one of the things that make BW's skill ceiling so high, from what I gather.
Similarly, I don't mind Sc2 players having to produce more effort in micromanagement; battling the inconvenient AI and preventing units from doing stupid stuff (such as clumping together).
Nothing prevents the players from manually and individually managing their units before and during engagements. I understand that it can be very difficult in Sc2 considering the pace of the game, though.
edit: I meant to say during, not after
This change isn't to make sc2 easier, if anything harder coupled with an aoe change. It gives players so many more options
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It looks pretty, I wonder what a pro game would look like with theese settings as well.
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On July 04 2012 04:36 Al Bundy wrote:
I think this may be detrimental to the game. Unit control AND positioning are a huge part of micromanagement, and this mod would simplify it, aka dumb it down. Sc2 units tend to clump, well tough luck. In BW they tend to do shit all the time, and it didn't prevent the players from using them in a effective and spectacular way.
BW players constantly have to invest a lot of effort in micromanagement; they have to battle the inconvenient AI and prevent units from doing stupid stuff (such as the pathfinding). In fact, this is one of the things that make BW's skill ceiling so high, from what I gather.
Similarly, I don't mind Sc2 players having to produce more effort in micromanagement; battling the inconvenient AI and preventing units from doing stupid stuff (such as clumping together).
Nothing prevents the players from manually and individually managing their units before and during engagements. I understand that it can be very difficult in Sc2 considering the pace of the game, though.
edit: I meant to say during, not after
No, it would not simplify it. Far from it, actually. There are some quality posts in this thread that explain why. Read them.
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On July 04 2012 04:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 04:36 Al Bundy wrote:
I think this may be detrimental to the game. Unit control AND positioning are a huge part of micromanagement, and this mod would simplify it, aka dumb it down. Sc2 units tend to clump, well tough luck. In BW they tend to do shit all the time, and it didn't prevent the players from using them in a effective and spectacular way.
BW players constantly have to invest a lot of effort in micromanagement; they have to battle the inconvenient AI and prevent units from doing stupid stuff (such as the pathfinding). In fact, this is one of the things that make BW's skill ceiling so high, from what I gather.
Similarly, I don't mind Sc2 players having to produce more effort in micromanagement; battling the inconvenient AI and preventing units from doing stupid stuff (such as clumping together).
Nothing prevents the players from manually and individually managing their units before and during engagements. I understand that it can be very difficult in Sc2 considering the pace of the game, though.
edit: I meant to say during, not after No, it would not simplify it. Far from it, actually. There are some quality posts in this thread that explain why. Read them.
Fair enough, I'll give it a shot.
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Hey can someone upload DM Unit Tester to NA? I search for it but do not see it atm.
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Stupid question: Is their any way to make a unit hold its formation while moving in SC2?
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On July 03 2012 19:06 killerdog wrote:
I really don't like the idea of changing something this fundamental to hwo sc2 works at this point in it's development as an ESPORTS.
If something like this should have been implemented it would have had to have been back in beta or before, now, especially with the kespa players coming in, there is so much invested in sc2 as it is now that it would be incredibly unfair to the players to change something as fundamental as how all the units move.
Imagine changing the football used in soccer by making is 25% larger, it's basically that. You can't have a stable Esports scene if the very fundamentals of the game can change with little to no warning, For sc2 to succeed as a sport it needs to be scene as a stable carreer, and large changes like this undermine that.
If the pro's who have been practicing with the current setup for almost two years now wanted a change then fine, but a lot of diamond and master non pros who just want matches to look prettier and force all the pros to relearn the game just so that can happen seems very unfair imo.
Just my opinion :p
Just like adding new units would? HoTS anyone?
This is a horrible perspective. "I don't want to improve the game, because it would be inconvenient for a lot of people and they would have to relearn things". I doubt much, if anything, would need to be relearned.
Note that I don't say IT WOULD improve the game, but if it checks out, certainly you WOULD want to.
Oh, and also, as a competitive soccer player, changing the size of the soccer ball isn't that big of a deal. Same mechanics, same touch, same everything. I can play with a size 4, and i'm sure i would do fine with a ball bigger than size 5. Xavi isn't going to start being horrible because you change the ball size on him lol. It's better if you don't use analogies because they always break down, this one sooner than most.
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It is much easier to split your army rather than asking Blizzard to implement this change :D
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On July 04 2012 05:12 Archerofaiur wrote:
Stupid question: Is their any way to make a unit hold its formation while moving in SC2?
Yeah I wonder that too, there were a couple people in this thread who mentioned something of the like.
I really hope we keep this alive. This would allow so many great things to be implemented into the game.
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On July 04 2012 04:02 Morphage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 03:47 ptrpb wrote:
what a load of crap.
"i don't like unit clumping because it's ugly, i dont think anyone else likes it"
you even say "i don't even watch SC2 anymore" and you try to make it more like BW.
no, this is not what SC2 "needs". what you need to do is find something you like because you clearly don't like SC2. This thread has nothing to do with wanting to make SC2 more like BW. It is several people agreeing that clumping is ugly and, more importantly, detrimental to both gameplay and viewing experience. Whether you like it or not, BW has proven to be a great RTS game and esport lasting around 10 years. Naturally, if we want the same thing to happen to SC2 we can look at the elements that made BW so successful and take inspiration. People have given good arguments as to why this should be implemented, "BW has it" isn't one of them of course ^^
rewatch the video and listen to why this guy wants to implement this
i never said BW was a bad game, BW is a wonderful game. that doesn't mean SC2 has to be BW or replicate parts of it. so the OP's main point is "it's ugly" which just does not make sense to me.
if you don't like the core of SC2 and you're set on changing it, you're better off finding a new game.
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On July 04 2012 05:26 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 04:02 Morphage wrote:On July 04 2012 03:47 ptrpb wrote:
what a load of crap.
"i don't like unit clumping because it's ugly, i dont think anyone else likes it"
you even say "i don't even watch SC2 anymore" and you try to make it more like BW.
no, this is not what SC2 "needs". what you need to do is find something you like because you clearly don't like SC2. This thread has nothing to do with wanting to make SC2 more like BW. It is several people agreeing that clumping is ugly and, more importantly, detrimental to both gameplay and viewing experience. Whether you like it or not, BW has proven to be a great RTS game and esport lasting around 10 years. Naturally, if we want the same thing to happen to SC2 we can look at the elements that made BW so successful and take inspiration. People have given good arguments as to why this should be implemented, "BW has it" isn't one of them of course ^^ rewatch the video and listen to why this guy wants to implement this i never said BW was a bad game, BW is a wonderful game. that doesn't mean SC2 has to be BW or replicate parts of it. so the OP's main point is "it's ugly" which just does not make sense to me. if you don't like the core of SC2 and you're set on changing it, you're better off finding a new game.
How does it not make sense? I would almost bet money on that the majority finds a huge blob, a deathball, ugly compared to units moving in a split up formation that makes it looks bigger.
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One problem with this that I could imagine is with using with melee units:
Zerglings chasing workers/scouts might not make as many hits due to staying in formation — not quite sure about this though. Does the formation still apply when they have a target acquired?
Zerglings vs marines. When stutter-stepping marines the zerglings may have the same issue at dealing damage (if the formation applies when they have an auto-acquired target). This time it wouldn't be circumventable due to manual attacking since there'd be too many marines to manually target.
Again not sure if this is an actual issue or not.
Something tells me they wouldn't stay in formation, since this would actually affect more than just melee units too
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On July 04 2012 05:26 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 04:02 Morphage wrote:On July 04 2012 03:47 ptrpb wrote:
what a load of crap.
"i don't like unit clumping because it's ugly, i dont think anyone else likes it"
you even say "i don't even watch SC2 anymore" and you try to make it more like BW.
no, this is not what SC2 "needs". what you need to do is find something you like because you clearly don't like SC2. This thread has nothing to do with wanting to make SC2 more like BW. It is several people agreeing that clumping is ugly and, more importantly, detrimental to both gameplay and viewing experience. Whether you like it or not, BW has proven to be a great RTS game and esport lasting around 10 years. Naturally, if we want the same thing to happen to SC2 we can look at the elements that made BW so successful and take inspiration. People have given good arguments as to why this should be implemented, "BW has it" isn't one of them of course ^^ rewatch the video and listen to why this guy wants to implement this i never said BW was a bad game, BW is a wonderful game. that doesn't mean SC2 has to be BW or replicate parts of it. so the OP's main point is "it's ugly" which just does not make sense to me. if you don't like the core of SC2 and you're set on changing it, you're better off finding a new game.
Hmm, at the same this isn't really the core of SCII. This is a deliberate decision that can be changed quite easily by someone. Takes a minute in the galaxy editor.
It's ugly - makes a lot of sense from a spectator point of view, and some from the player's POV as well. A lot of times units in SCII just ball up in a giant clusterfuck and you can't tell what the hell is going on. It's horrible to watch from a spectator's POV.
It's also a pain in the ass to deal with from a player's POV as well, when situations arise. Most often with protoss dball.
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I dont think it will be implemented, for this to happen blizzard would have to scrap all balance and start almost from scratch. Changing unit movement changes all match ups drastically, and i dont hink blizzard wants to go through the hassle. I wish this were implemented in the release, because it is much more visually appealing.
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