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There will obviously be balance shifts when gameplay values are changed. Nobody is claiming otherwise. This thread is about the effect these changes have on the clarity and spectator-friendliness of SC2. |
On July 03 2012 22:08 MavercK wrote:
i dont understand people saying this simplifies the game...
deathball is an issue because your ball is so tightly clumped that as soon as an engagement happens 100% of your units are shooting and it's instantly perfectly efficient.
where as with inefficient pathing
fights become longer because units filter in and you have maybe 50% of your army attacking at any given time in a battle. alot of repositioning goes on. time is given for reinforcements and flanks. etc. the list goes on.
Moreover, units like zergling would be effective again vs marines or roach who are way stronger when packed.
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On July 03 2012 21:18 Qwyn wrote:
I support this.
Why? B/c improving pathing in this way will allow AOE damage to be increased. And increasing AOE damage is, as far as I can see, the only way to prevent the deathball.
Units which control space have to be implemented in the game in order to get out of the shithole SCII is in now.
The siege tank was nerfed into the ground b/c of the pathing engine. A small change like this will make AOE damage increases more tolerable. If they are more tolerable, then Blizzard might be willing to implement them.
If Blizzard does not make a change like this to the pathing engine, then increasing AOE damage will have much harsher effects.
An extremely high level of maintainence is required to continually de-clump your army, and if high AOE damage units are implemented in the current system to fix the deathball issue, then the de-clump APM sink will be too high for most players.
With the suggested pathing system, there is no reason that one cannot clump their units - simply click into the middle of the ball. But along with this change should also come AOE damage increases, meaning that clumping would be less desirable.
It's much too difficult to continually de-clump your units after every single fucking move command, hence why AOE is nerfed so much. This de-clump requirement actually prevents more movement around the map, as players have less incentive to move (every time you do, you have to spend time fucking de-clumping!). Hence why players move out in one big attack (that and the lack of high AOE, space controlling units).
And we need high damage AOE to bring an end to the deathball issue. Changing the pathing system will make the road less painful in the longhaul.
Yeah....I just learned to constantly declump versus infestors/templar (as terran). It's annoying, but I get a lot of practice with it at least.
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On July 04 2012 02:08 cHL_at wrote:
i dont get it.
whats the sense of this?
how would this improve the game for the palyers or the audience.
i am sorry. but i dont see any real positive effect besides a lower dps (regardless of aoe) if u force units to only move like this, and remove the clumping at all.
but this would change asthetics of the game for the viewer, and the controlling for the players in realy huge way.
so in my opinion this cant be a solution (in case the dps is a real problem).
It looks better to the audience without everything being a whole mess.
Fights would go on for longer and be more spread out hopefully which in turn would grant more options and control to the players in the actual fighting, giving them a larger part of deciding the outcome of the fight rather than a simple A-move to see the outcome 1 second later.
You also wouldn't be completely dead if you do a bad engagement because the whole army doesn't necessarily have to be in the fight so it would be easier to retreat. You could also snipe parts of other armies with smaller groups of units and the AOE buff would make it easier to hold certain locations etc.
Read MavercK's post earlier in the thread
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Does the map really not show up? I just checked and found it right away. Just went on Multiplayer, Create game, typed in mmdaybreak, pressed enter, and it just shows. Please let me know if you still cant find it.
As to what I changed so others can do it to. Click the Data button in the editor. Then go on the Gameplay Data tab. Click on Default SC2 Gameplay Settings. Once clicked, on the right you will see some settings you can change. One of them is Formation Diameter(Mixed). Simply change this value to 50 to achieve what I've done. That's it 
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The AOE should not be necessary buffed because units like zealots or zerglings would be more effective.
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On July 04 2012 02:15 Orzabal wrote:
The AOE should not be necessary buffed because units like zealots or zerglings would be more effective.
AOE should already be stronger than it already it so it is definitely necessary
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While this change is a step in the right direction I still think its not enough by itself.
Thing Id like to add is increased hitboxes of all units and make move commanded units not push other units that are standing still when passing by them. Like when a unit is rallied on terrain where there are lots of other units, and then it just goes through them like butter. The unit should reach the rally point, but IMO not nearly as fast as it does now. It should be a bit clunkier.
Also they should behave like this [ not pushing] when more units are moving together and then one of them hits an obstacle. To go around the obstacle, in current pathing rules, the unit then pushes the unit nearby which then does the same to the next unit and it all feels just too fluid and fast and very unnatural. Obstacles should have at least some impact on unit movement.
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On July 04 2012 02:18 Darneck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 02:15 Orzabal wrote:
The AOE should not be necessary buffed because units like zealots or zerglings would be more effective. AOE should already be stronger than it already it so it is definitely necessary
If people want AOE to be more powerfull is because "deathball" is too strong and player lack of option to stand vs a larger army. They cant shine with a a good micro who can take down the enemy army.
With a unit movement like in this video you want :
- spread units vs AOE
- clumped units vs zerglings, zealots etc.
the dynamics of the micro needed is more interesting from a player or spectator point of view : player have to spread then clumped etc. The other player can flank, embush a part of the army etc.
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I love it, it looks so much more fun.
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On July 03 2012 19:16 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 19:08 speknek wrote:
Yes current aoe spells would be less effective vs permanently spread out units, thanks detectives. Let's think about less obvious things now. You shouldn't ignore the showstopping issue just because it's inconvenient. Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 19:10 Adonminus wrote:
It looks much nicer visually, however I believe it can make control a bit harder. That's not a bad thing after all, since pro players have the apm to either put the units in a deathball formation or into any other formation quite easily.
Just hope it won't make stalkers and immortals as stupid as dragoons. The value change doesn't affect movement AI, just the target location for each unit relative to the group command. Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 19:15 sOda~ wrote:
but marine splitting is like the only cool thing in sc2 I concur.
presumably having unit movement like this would enable more cool things.
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On July 04 2012 02:24 Orzabal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 02:18 Darneck wrote:On July 04 2012 02:15 Orzabal wrote:
The AOE should not be necessary buffed because units like zealots or zerglings would be more effective. AOE should already be stronger than it already it so it is definitely necessary If people want AOE to be more powerfull is because "deathball" is too strong and player lack of option to stand vs a larger army. They cant shine with a a good micro who can take down the enemy army. With a unit movement like in this video you want : - spread units vs AOE - clumped units vs zerglings, zealots etc. the dynamics of the micro needed is more interesting from a player or spectator point of view : player have to spread then clumped etc. The other player can flank, embush a part of the army etc.
I want stronger AOE because AOE should be what completely destroys you if you don't avoid it but this change without any change whatsoever to the radius it would be rendered close to useless in most cases. I'm not sure how stronger AOE discourages spread units vs AOE and vs melee you'd just have to be smart
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Hope this one doesn't have the same fate with the 1gas maps...
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I think this would open a lot of tactical formations like seen in medieval ages, and make it easier for a casual player to execute them. Of course a pro player would still do it better, because they would be much faster making the formations while macroing, so it wouldn't lower the skill cap.
Not sure if there's a post of this in the battle.net forums, but there it would gain more visibility by the developers i suppose.
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AOE spells and damage would be less effective...... idk.....
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On July 04 2012 02:30 Apolo wrote:
Not sure if there's a post of this in the battle.net forums, but there it would gain more visibility by the developers i suppose.
Yeah, I wanted to make a post, but I thought it might be better to have videos of people playing first for others to see. I hope good players start uploading replays soon...
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This could be a tremendous improvement to all aspects of SC2. Thank you so much for showing us this!
If AOE isn't as good in this setup, then players should learn how to use it more effectively. Players with good unit micro have learned how to use their units more effectively, so the same should apply to players who have AOE.
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On July 03 2012 22:38 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 19:06 papaz wrote:
1. I actually like the death ball
2. Like it or not. Changing it will give Blizzard a balance headache of huge proportions. Suddenly the AoE is kinda worthless. MKP doesn't need to even marinesplit vs banelings. His units won't clump up -> problem solved.
This is one of those things that won't change in SC2. what part about increasing aoe don't you understand? according to you lurkers, storm, everything aoe in bw was useless?
You couldn't have 120 food on one control group either, or move them with one command.
SC2 is SC2. This suggestion is heading into Pro Mod territory.
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On July 03 2012 22:08 MavercK wrote:
i dont understand people saying this simplifies the game...
deathball is an issue because your ball is so tightly clumped that as soon as an engagement happens 100% of your units are shooting and it's instantly perfectly efficient.
where as with inefficient pathing
fights become longer because units filter in and you have maybe 50% of your army attacking at any given time in a battle. alot of repositioning goes on. time is given for reinforcements and flanks. etc. the list goes on.
it simplifies the game because its easier to clump then to unclump and would remove options out of the game. So if your units are unclumped by standard its way easier to clump them for 100% damage output, something that is not desirable anyway, since you want to get an advantage out of a fight.
Oh and talking about the perfect a click concave, the attack of the colossus gets perfect damage from this. So i doubt you want this 100% damage efficients to happen against a colossus.
Also it would be needed to change unit stats, ranged units would have to become stronger, melee units weaker, aoes wider.
I mean bw is a good example of unclumped units, when a moving your units formed a line and died one by one. But it is incredible easy in bw to form a front line with your units and attack in a perfect concave. Thats why you don't really have to watch your army fight in bw, they do fine without you and reproducing the rapidly lost forces is way more important.
In sc2 the control overall got easier and you could increase the amount of micro needed. Thats why there are more options in the pathfinding in sc2. The difference between a move and move command is one part of it, allowing you army to either move unclumped or clumped. A move is less risky because your units fire at sight and they optimize their damage, but moving your whole army clumped can be fairly risky against aoe units. Move command allows your army to stay in formation, holding position to attack to prevent stacking will enable your army to survive way longer, the downside is the enemy can get you offguard with his whole army. So making a-move also unclumped, would remove one option from the game, thus simpler.
There is so much stuff in sc2 still that makes the game easier for you, if we make the game easier now and people find out the hidden easy modes, like autofollow and magic box. Then sc2 will truly become to easy. But right now i would say it is a bit to hard to reach the full potential sc2 allows, but i don't have 300 apm to really test out the boundaries. And gamers really like to waste their apm and units in needless actions, because its easier to train the muscles then the brain. So a-move all the way, because its to risky to learn other forms of movement and mess up.
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I modified the Unit Tester to have the new unit movement and published it as "DM Unit Tester" if anyone wants to try that.
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Bah cant find MMDaybreak very sad panda
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EPT
