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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
Claiming Zerg imba based on queens is like this, or at least I feel it is.
Say you're driving your car downhill, and that you have run out of gas. (Suppose you didn't notice the engine stopped and that your fuel gauge was broken.) Now let's say you pull into a garage, still coasting downhill, apply the brakes and park, and ask the mechanic to service your car.
So let's say your mechanic notices the fuel gauge is broken, and fixes it.
But now let's say you get in your car, and not surprisingly, it doesn't go anyplace because it's out of gas. Further, let's say that where before your gas tank read full, it now reads empty, because your fuel gauge has been fixed.
You leap out and shout "FUEL GAUGE IMBA! I had no problems driving to the garage! You screwed with my fuel gauge, now my car doesn't work! Change it back!"
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Which is to say, maybe queens aren't broken. Maybe all fixing queens did was to make clear that TvZ late game needs a fix. (If it does, which I'm not commenting on at the moment.)
That may have been the stupidest analogy ever.
To use a better one, say you are in a NASCAR race and your mechanic straps a auto-targeting 50 caliber machine gun onto your car. You proceed to rape the other cars.
Your first argument was straight-up stupid. You're whining because apparently a terran has to use "little micro" to plant an incredibly prone and fragile pack of hellions at your front door. The zerg has to spend "a big chunk of gas" to defend it. From my experience, 4 roaches isnt a lot of gas. This patch was stupid because it made an econ centered unit into a ridiculously good defender and made it a lot easier for zerg to play greedy.
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In all seriousness, every terran should just switch to zerg when they face another zerg and 6pool. Maybe that will make blizzard notice.
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I think it's cute that Zerg and Protoss think that Terrans are just on the forums whining when half of us have multiple Terran streams open just to see if there's a new solid build that we can steal so we don't have to resort to cheesing every Zerg.
I don't think it's whining that Terrans complain about queen buff. Well, generally. But waiting around to steal builds, and trying to be highhanded to avoid cheese . . . it's like saying you don't even have an opinion that's worth considering and that you simultaneously think games need to go to macro before they're legitimate games.
But if you let zerg go crazy macro drone heavy, isn't that a problem? It's saying go ahead do what you want, and after you can roll over me, I'll get mad when you do. That can't be right.
I don't think it's cheesy to punish a player that gets greedy, any more than I think it's wrong to build marauders if I've scouted a roach-heavy army.
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On June 24 2012 12:05 redruMBunny wrote:Show nested quote +You need a whopping 4 Roaches to handle a Hellion opener. That's entirely cost-effective; it doesn't put Zerg on the back foot at all, lol. Zerg isn't "even" when they're on 3bases with 70 Drones by 8 minutes and Creep more than halfway across the map. They're ahead.
You can argue it being repetitive, but it still ended with the better player winning almost every time.
I don't even know what you're on about with Hydras, rofl. And just what do you base your judgment regarding which player was "better" on? If Terran was overpowered, and a particular Terran player beat a Zerg player consistently, and Terran were balanced, then of course the Terran player might lose after the patch. As far as your "rofl"ing, it's OK by me if you BM. Doesn't help your point any. The thing about hellion harass wasn't that you just needed a few roaches whatever. You had to keep queens in base, build sunkens, roaches, plus think about all the other things Terran was up to. Maybe I didn't make this clear. All Terran committed to was building barracks, factory, and reactor, which they were inevitably going to build anyways in any game that wasn't pure marauder/marine push. Besides which all this still kept Zerg creep contained, which point you totally ignored. If you let Zerg go 70 drone by 8 minutes anyways and creep halfway across the map, you deserve a loss. Sounds like zero Terran scouting zero Terran harass to me, and that's not the sort of game high level Terrans should think should end in a win - unless they're cripples relying on Hellion imba to get them to ranks they didn't deserve.
you are actually serious with this :/. Helions forced you to multitask and think about all the things the terran is doing? You even had to defend your base and build spines and such? ohh the outrage! People on these forums still manages to surprise, you receive the award for the worst post yet with this one.
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On June 24 2012 12:11 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 10:21 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 10:06 yeint wrote:On June 24 2012 10:00 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 09:49 c0sm0naut wrote:On June 24 2012 09:43 Crookie wrote:
I dont know why I tried. TL just isnt the same community anymore.... Just a bunch of whining about every patch and nothing even attempted to try and fix the problem.. so marines get +2 range how do you feel? if you come share your opinion on it here i'll tell you it's a meta thing and that you just need to adapt. newsflash: you're on a starcraft 2 website and you clicked the forum button, and then this topic. you're not going to change people's opinions by coming in here and championing a meta-solution to this, so i don't really understand why you're disappointed. If you honestly think the queen change was as bad as a plus 2 range increase to marines, youre delusional. If you actually read my post, you'd see that I said that I did not expect my solution to be an end-all be-all to the current problems terran has. I find it hard to believe that people have been playing brood war for over 10 years and still new builds to do while terran has supposedly "tried everything" in the first two years of SC2. Maybe the buff was too much? How do we even know yet? Nothing new has even been suggested yet and once again I ask to see vods of new things that have been attempted. Not once has someone offered any proof. Still, all this is is a bunch of unproven complaints. I am dissappointed that the website that is supposed to be the number one source for SC2 discussion and strategy has succumbed to a giant terran QQ circle jerk, where no one cares for anything other than quoted previous balance whines and pouting that ABSOLUTLY NOTHING can be done to try to fix the problem at hand. Having fun sitting in this thread, crying for months for blizzard to fix the game. This thread has really made a large amount of progress in solving the problem. Carry on the way you guys are going. Maybe if we reach 200 pages of crying, blizzard will revert the change and starcraft will be saved!!!~~!!!! Pathetic Amazing argument. You're taking the "try different things" route and tacking a "do that for 10 years" corollary on top. A completely unnecessary, thoughtless, untested balance change was introduced and it completely broke the matchup. There was nothing wrong with TvZ. It was balanced and fun to watch. This idiotic change broke it. Lets keep crying shall we? After 80 pages of complaining, weve made so much progress so far! Fuck actually trying to do anything about it. Crying on TL is the way to go!! Great work guys! usually crying is pointless, but we need blizzard to take action. The way things are now, they won't patch the game till HoTs, meaning if you make a living playing terran you are completely fucked for 1 year. It is very rare when so many pros blatantly argue for not even slight imbalance or slightly too strong, but they come out and say the matchup is almost unwinnable and broken. This cannot be ignored by blizzard, and they need to acknowledge the fact that they fucked up big time. So yes, every terran continue to qq till blizzard notices.
Blizzard isn't changing a thing, so just quit if you think it's broken. Personally, I think 20% win rate is just fine. If it gets to 0% then there's obviously a problem, but we're nowhere near that.
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On June 24 2012 12:12 Inquisitor1323 wrote:Show nested quote +Claiming Zerg imba based on queens is like this, or at least I feel it is.
Say you're driving your car downhill, and that you have run out of gas. (Suppose you didn't notice the engine stopped and that your fuel gauge was broken.) Now let's say you pull into a garage, still coasting downhill, apply the brakes and park, and ask the mechanic to service your car.
So let's say your mechanic notices the fuel gauge is broken, and fixes it.
But now let's say you get in your car, and not surprisingly, it doesn't go anyplace because it's out of gas. Further, let's say that where before your gas tank read full, it now reads empty, because your fuel gauge has been fixed.
You leap out and shout "FUEL GAUGE IMBA! I had no problems driving to the garage! You screwed with my fuel gauge, now my car doesn't work! Change it back!"
--
Which is to say, maybe queens aren't broken. Maybe all fixing queens did was to make clear that TvZ late game needs a fix. (If it does, which I'm not commenting on at the moment.) That may have been the stupidest analogy ever. To use a better one, say you are in a NASCAR race and your mechanic straps a auto-targeting 50 caliber machine gun onto your car. You proceed to rape the other cars. Your first argument was straight-up stupid. You're whining because apparently a terran has to use "little micro" to plant an incredibly prone and fragile pack of hellions at your front door. The zerg has to spend "a big chunk of gas" to defend it. From my experience, 4 roaches isnt a lot of gas. This patch was stupid because it made an econ centered unit into a ridiculously good defender and made it a lot easier for zerg to play greedy.
No in a ways he was in fact correct. The Queen patch only looks overpowered because lack of Terran Lategame versus Zerg. This queen patch exposed the underlying core of TvZ: extremely weak terran lategame. If Terran had a stronger lategame then the queens would not be as strong as they are now because Terran would be able to abuse economic stratagies that would favor their lategame over the zergs'. However, zergs have the uperhand as of right now even if terrans abuse triple orbital builds.
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On June 24 2012 12:19 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 12:11 biology]major wrote:On June 24 2012 10:21 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 10:06 yeint wrote:On June 24 2012 10:00 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 09:49 c0sm0naut wrote:On June 24 2012 09:43 Crookie wrote:
I dont know why I tried. TL just isnt the same community anymore.... Just a bunch of whining about every patch and nothing even attempted to try and fix the problem.. so marines get +2 range how do you feel? if you come share your opinion on it here i'll tell you it's a meta thing and that you just need to adapt. newsflash: you're on a starcraft 2 website and you clicked the forum button, and then this topic. you're not going to change people's opinions by coming in here and championing a meta-solution to this, so i don't really understand why you're disappointed. If you honestly think the queen change was as bad as a plus 2 range increase to marines, youre delusional. If you actually read my post, you'd see that I said that I did not expect my solution to be an end-all be-all to the current problems terran has. I find it hard to believe that people have been playing brood war for over 10 years and still new builds to do while terran has supposedly "tried everything" in the first two years of SC2. Maybe the buff was too much? How do we even know yet? Nothing new has even been suggested yet and once again I ask to see vods of new things that have been attempted. Not once has someone offered any proof. Still, all this is is a bunch of unproven complaints. I am dissappointed that the website that is supposed to be the number one source for SC2 discussion and strategy has succumbed to a giant terran QQ circle jerk, where no one cares for anything other than quoted previous balance whines and pouting that ABSOLUTLY NOTHING can be done to try to fix the problem at hand. Having fun sitting in this thread, crying for months for blizzard to fix the game. This thread has really made a large amount of progress in solving the problem. Carry on the way you guys are going. Maybe if we reach 200 pages of crying, blizzard will revert the change and starcraft will be saved!!!~~!!!! Pathetic Amazing argument. You're taking the "try different things" route and tacking a "do that for 10 years" corollary on top. A completely unnecessary, thoughtless, untested balance change was introduced and it completely broke the matchup. There was nothing wrong with TvZ. It was balanced and fun to watch. This idiotic change broke it. Lets keep crying shall we? After 80 pages of complaining, weve made so much progress so far! Fuck actually trying to do anything about it. Crying on TL is the way to go!! Great work guys! usually crying is pointless, but we need blizzard to take action. The way things are now, they won't patch the game till HoTs, meaning if you make a living playing terran you are completely fucked for 1 year. It is very rare when so many pros blatantly argue for not even slight imbalance or slightly too strong, but they come out and say the matchup is almost unwinnable and broken. This cannot be ignored by blizzard, and they need to acknowledge the fact that they fucked up big time. So yes, every terran continue to qq till blizzard notices. Blizzard isn't changing a thing, so just quit if you think it's broken. Personally, I think 20% win rate is just fine. If it gets to 0% then there's obviously a problem, but we're nowhere near that.
if you think a 20% win ratio is fine that makes you look a bit silly. or are you just trolling?
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On June 24 2012 12:17 redruMBunny wrote:Show nested quote +I think it's cute that Zerg and Protoss think that Terrans are just on the forums whining when half of us have multiple Terran streams open just to see if there's a new solid build that we can steal so we don't have to resort to cheesing every Zerg. I don't think it's whining that Terrans complain about queen buff. Well, generally. But waiting around to steal builds, and trying to be highhanded to avoid cheese . . . it's like saying you don't even have an opinion that's worth considering and that you simultaneously think games need to go to macro before they're legitimate games. But if you let zerg go crazy macro drone heavy, isn't that a problem? It's saying go ahead do what you want, and after you can roll over me, I'll get mad when you do. That can't be right. I don't think it's cheesy to punish a player that gets greedy, any more than I think it's wrong to build marauders if I've scouted a roach-heavy army.
Okay troll. Now get back on your first account.
To respond to what you said...Zergs can easily scout just about everything. I watch 2 raxes (aggressive and delayed) fail. I watch 1 base marauder hellion scv allins fail. It's not like these Terrans aren't cheesing and failing too...
But the matchup is FLAWED if Terran has no way to play straight up vs the Zerg standard. Greedy and aggressive is risky as fuck and any standard Terran play gets outmacroed into the ground by Zerg.
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On June 24 2012 11:54 Sroobz wrote:
Interesting 13th post there buddy.
On June 24 2012 11:54 Sroobz wrote:
...where is the meme for - Are you fucking kidding me?
If I make a lot of insulting posts without any useful content worth considering, I could have 851 posts like you.
Oh, I just did, and I got a post, hurrah! Do I get a secret decoder ring with my membership in your special club?
User was warned for this post
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On June 24 2012 12:05 redruMBunny wrote:Show nested quote +You need a whopping 4 Roaches to handle a Hellion opener. That's entirely cost-effective; it doesn't put Zerg on the back foot at all, lol. Zerg isn't "even" when they're on 3bases with 70 Drones by 8 minutes and Creep more than halfway across the map. They're ahead.
You can argue it being repetitive, but it still ended with the better player winning almost every time.
I don't even know what you're on about with Hydras, rofl. And just what do you base your judgment regarding which player was "better" on? If Terran was overpowered, and a particular Terran player beat a Zerg player consistently, and Terran were balanced, then of course the Terran player might lose after the patch. As far as your "rofl"ing, it's OK by me if you BM. Doesn't help your point any. The thing about hellion harass wasn't that you just needed a few roaches whatever. You had to keep queens in base, build sunkens, roaches, plus think about all the other things Terran was up to. Maybe I didn't make this clear. All Terran committed to was building barracks, factory, and reactor, which they were inevitably going to build anyways in any game that wasn't pure marauder/marine push. Besides which all this still kept Zerg creep contained, which point you totally ignored. If you let Zerg go 70 drone by 8 minutes anyways and creep halfway across the map, you deserve a loss. Sounds like zero Terran scouting zero Terran harass to me, and that's not the sort of game high level Terrans should think should end in a win - unless they're cripples relying on Hellion imba to get them to ranks they didn't deserve.
If you notice every single high level terran game what do you see? some variant of triple oc and double ebay
why do you think this is? they are letting the zerg go to 70 drones, so they deserve to lose right?
You probably don't actually play the game, but there is actually no way to stop zerg from going 70 drones by 8 minutes unless you do some super 2 base timing (usually allin if fails to do any damage), and 6 queens + lings easily stop everything. Seems to me like you just don't know how to wall off and use your queens right, and since no learning occured from game to game you just lost to hellions every time. Meanwhile I see zergs stop hellions with queens and slow lings so yeah, try actually playing the game before making "herp derp hellions imba" remarks.
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On June 24 2012 12:21 ][Primarch][ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 12:19 Fission wrote:On June 24 2012 12:11 biology]major wrote:On June 24 2012 10:21 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 10:06 yeint wrote:On June 24 2012 10:00 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 09:49 c0sm0naut wrote:On June 24 2012 09:43 Crookie wrote:
I dont know why I tried. TL just isnt the same community anymore.... Just a bunch of whining about every patch and nothing even attempted to try and fix the problem.. so marines get +2 range how do you feel? if you come share your opinion on it here i'll tell you it's a meta thing and that you just need to adapt. newsflash: you're on a starcraft 2 website and you clicked the forum button, and then this topic. you're not going to change people's opinions by coming in here and championing a meta-solution to this, so i don't really understand why you're disappointed. If you honestly think the queen change was as bad as a plus 2 range increase to marines, youre delusional. If you actually read my post, you'd see that I said that I did not expect my solution to be an end-all be-all to the current problems terran has. I find it hard to believe that people have been playing brood war for over 10 years and still new builds to do while terran has supposedly "tried everything" in the first two years of SC2. Maybe the buff was too much? How do we even know yet? Nothing new has even been suggested yet and once again I ask to see vods of new things that have been attempted. Not once has someone offered any proof. Still, all this is is a bunch of unproven complaints. I am dissappointed that the website that is supposed to be the number one source for SC2 discussion and strategy has succumbed to a giant terran QQ circle jerk, where no one cares for anything other than quoted previous balance whines and pouting that ABSOLUTLY NOTHING can be done to try to fix the problem at hand. Having fun sitting in this thread, crying for months for blizzard to fix the game. This thread has really made a large amount of progress in solving the problem. Carry on the way you guys are going. Maybe if we reach 200 pages of crying, blizzard will revert the change and starcraft will be saved!!!~~!!!! Pathetic Amazing argument. You're taking the "try different things" route and tacking a "do that for 10 years" corollary on top. A completely unnecessary, thoughtless, untested balance change was introduced and it completely broke the matchup. There was nothing wrong with TvZ. It was balanced and fun to watch. This idiotic change broke it. Lets keep crying shall we? After 80 pages of complaining, weve made so much progress so far! Fuck actually trying to do anything about it. Crying on TL is the way to go!! Great work guys! usually crying is pointless, but we need blizzard to take action. The way things are now, they won't patch the game till HoTs, meaning if you make a living playing terran you are completely fucked for 1 year. It is very rare when so many pros blatantly argue for not even slight imbalance or slightly too strong, but they come out and say the matchup is almost unwinnable and broken. This cannot be ignored by blizzard, and they need to acknowledge the fact that they fucked up big time. So yes, every terran continue to qq till blizzard notices. Blizzard isn't changing a thing, so just quit if you think it's broken. Personally, I think 20% win rate is just fine. If it gets to 0% then there's obviously a problem, but we're nowhere near that. if you think a 20% win ratio is fine that makes you look a bit silly. or are you just trolling?
If they weren't worse players then they wouldn't be losing. It's pretty simple.
User was warned for this post
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On June 24 2012 12:25 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 12:21 ][Primarch][ wrote:On June 24 2012 12:19 Fission wrote:On June 24 2012 12:11 biology]major wrote:On June 24 2012 10:21 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 10:06 yeint wrote:On June 24 2012 10:00 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 09:49 c0sm0naut wrote:On June 24 2012 09:43 Crookie wrote:
I dont know why I tried. TL just isnt the same community anymore.... Just a bunch of whining about every patch and nothing even attempted to try and fix the problem.. so marines get +2 range how do you feel? if you come share your opinion on it here i'll tell you it's a meta thing and that you just need to adapt. newsflash: you're on a starcraft 2 website and you clicked the forum button, and then this topic. you're not going to change people's opinions by coming in here and championing a meta-solution to this, so i don't really understand why you're disappointed. If you honestly think the queen change was as bad as a plus 2 range increase to marines, youre delusional. If you actually read my post, you'd see that I said that I did not expect my solution to be an end-all be-all to the current problems terran has. I find it hard to believe that people have been playing brood war for over 10 years and still new builds to do while terran has supposedly "tried everything" in the first two years of SC2. Maybe the buff was too much? How do we even know yet? Nothing new has even been suggested yet and once again I ask to see vods of new things that have been attempted. Not once has someone offered any proof. Still, all this is is a bunch of unproven complaints. I am dissappointed that the website that is supposed to be the number one source for SC2 discussion and strategy has succumbed to a giant terran QQ circle jerk, where no one cares for anything other than quoted previous balance whines and pouting that ABSOLUTLY NOTHING can be done to try to fix the problem at hand. Having fun sitting in this thread, crying for months for blizzard to fix the game. This thread has really made a large amount of progress in solving the problem. Carry on the way you guys are going. Maybe if we reach 200 pages of crying, blizzard will revert the change and starcraft will be saved!!!~~!!!! Pathetic Amazing argument. You're taking the "try different things" route and tacking a "do that for 10 years" corollary on top. A completely unnecessary, thoughtless, untested balance change was introduced and it completely broke the matchup. There was nothing wrong with TvZ. It was balanced and fun to watch. This idiotic change broke it. Lets keep crying shall we? After 80 pages of complaining, weve made so much progress so far! Fuck actually trying to do anything about it. Crying on TL is the way to go!! Great work guys! usually crying is pointless, but we need blizzard to take action. The way things are now, they won't patch the game till HoTs, meaning if you make a living playing terran you are completely fucked for 1 year. It is very rare when so many pros blatantly argue for not even slight imbalance or slightly too strong, but they come out and say the matchup is almost unwinnable and broken. This cannot be ignored by blizzard, and they need to acknowledge the fact that they fucked up big time. So yes, every terran continue to qq till blizzard notices. Blizzard isn't changing a thing, so just quit if you think it's broken. Personally, I think 20% win rate is just fine. If it gets to 0% then there's obviously a problem, but we're nowhere near that. if you think a 20% win ratio is fine that makes you look a bit silly. or are you just trolling? If they weren't worse players then they wouldn't be losing. It's pretty simple.
He's right! I should have realized this a while ago. God I'm so stupid!
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On June 24 2012 12:25 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 12:21 ][Primarch][ wrote:On June 24 2012 12:19 Fission wrote:On June 24 2012 12:11 biology]major wrote:On June 24 2012 10:21 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 10:06 yeint wrote:On June 24 2012 10:00 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 09:49 c0sm0naut wrote:On June 24 2012 09:43 Crookie wrote:
I dont know why I tried. TL just isnt the same community anymore.... Just a bunch of whining about every patch and nothing even attempted to try and fix the problem.. so marines get +2 range how do you feel? if you come share your opinion on it here i'll tell you it's a meta thing and that you just need to adapt. newsflash: you're on a starcraft 2 website and you clicked the forum button, and then this topic. you're not going to change people's opinions by coming in here and championing a meta-solution to this, so i don't really understand why you're disappointed. If you honestly think the queen change was as bad as a plus 2 range increase to marines, youre delusional. If you actually read my post, you'd see that I said that I did not expect my solution to be an end-all be-all to the current problems terran has. I find it hard to believe that people have been playing brood war for over 10 years and still new builds to do while terran has supposedly "tried everything" in the first two years of SC2. Maybe the buff was too much? How do we even know yet? Nothing new has even been suggested yet and once again I ask to see vods of new things that have been attempted. Not once has someone offered any proof. Still, all this is is a bunch of unproven complaints. I am dissappointed that the website that is supposed to be the number one source for SC2 discussion and strategy has succumbed to a giant terran QQ circle jerk, where no one cares for anything other than quoted previous balance whines and pouting that ABSOLUTLY NOTHING can be done to try to fix the problem at hand. Having fun sitting in this thread, crying for months for blizzard to fix the game. This thread has really made a large amount of progress in solving the problem. Carry on the way you guys are going. Maybe if we reach 200 pages of crying, blizzard will revert the change and starcraft will be saved!!!~~!!!! Pathetic Amazing argument. You're taking the "try different things" route and tacking a "do that for 10 years" corollary on top. A completely unnecessary, thoughtless, untested balance change was introduced and it completely broke the matchup. There was nothing wrong with TvZ. It was balanced and fun to watch. This idiotic change broke it. Lets keep crying shall we? After 80 pages of complaining, weve made so much progress so far! Fuck actually trying to do anything about it. Crying on TL is the way to go!! Great work guys! usually crying is pointless, but we need blizzard to take action. The way things are now, they won't patch the game till HoTs, meaning if you make a living playing terran you are completely fucked for 1 year. It is very rare when so many pros blatantly argue for not even slight imbalance or slightly too strong, but they come out and say the matchup is almost unwinnable and broken. This cannot be ignored by blizzard, and they need to acknowledge the fact that they fucked up big time. So yes, every terran continue to qq till blizzard notices. Blizzard isn't changing a thing, so just quit if you think it's broken. Personally, I think 20% win rate is just fine. If it gets to 0% then there's obviously a problem, but we're nowhere near that. if you think a 20% win ratio is fine that makes you look a bit silly. or are you just trolling? If they weren't worse players then they wouldn't be losing. It's pretty simple.
haha ok you are actually being silly  dats ok
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On June 24 2012 11:56 SnipedSoul wrote:
So the matchup was broken before blizzard changed the queen?
That is, was the ZvT matchup broken before the queen buff?
I think it was broken twice. I think Terrans couldn't really let the Zerg get to late game and that that was a problem, and I think Zerg had problems dealing with Hellion kiting. And to be clear, not so much the "one thing" of hellions - it wasn't that they could hit your drones, it wasn't that they could kite queens, but it was that all in all it added up to restricting Zerg scouting and harass, containing creep, and forcing Zerg to play along particular lines, without committing Terran gas to any particular tech path.
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On June 24 2012 12:12 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
Hide nested quote -
Claiming Zerg imba based on queens is like this, or at least I feel it is.
Say you're driving your car downhill, and that you have run out of gas. (Suppose you didn't notice the engine stopped and that your fuel gauge was broken.) Now let's say you pull into a garage, still coasting downhill,
No in a ways he was in fact correct. The Queen patch only looks overpowered because lack of Terran Lategame versus Zerg. This queen patch exposed the underlying core of TvZ: extremely weak terran lategame. If Terran had a stronger lategame then the queens would not be as strong as they are now because Terran would be able to abuse economic stratagies that would favor their lategame over the zergs'. However, zergs have the uperhand as of right now even if terrans abuse triple orbital builds.
Yeah I agree with him there. This patch is bad because zerg lategame now happens a lot more often.
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As a low masters Terran who mechs a lot vs Zerg I dont mind the change too much. Seems like a lot of zergs take the "you only need 6 queens to defend anything" a bit too literally and they can easily be exploited by 2 fact hellion plays to either seriously delay their 3rd or outright win with a runby. You know what though? I think that blizzard should give the reaper speed upgrade back to pre-fact status now. That would at least give terrans a better economical harass option that transitions better into marine/tank or pure bio.
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 24 2012 12:36 Inquisitor1323 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 12:12 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
Hide nested quote -
Claiming Zerg imba based on queens is like this, or at least I feel it is.
Say you're driving your car downhill, and that you have run out of gas. (Suppose you didn't notice the engine stopped and that your fuel gauge was broken.) Now let's say you pull into a garage, still coasting downhill,
No in a ways he was in fact correct. The Queen patch only looks overpowered because lack of Terran Lategame versus Zerg. This queen patch exposed the underlying core of TvZ: extremely weak terran lategame. If Terran had a stronger lategame then the queens would not be as strong as they are now because Terran would be able to abuse economic stratagies that would favor their lategame over the zergs'. However, zergs have the uperhand as of right now even if terrans abuse triple orbital builds.
Yeah I agree with him there. This patch is bad because zerg lategame now happens a lot more often.
Its not that Terran lategame is weak. I think Zerg lategame is just simply good and possibly too much so. I mean, protoss relies heavily on archon toilets. While Zerg like to complain about it, I want to be honest as a protoss, I wish I didn't need to rely on it most of the time.
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On June 24 2012 08:37 Crookie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:32 xrapture wrote:
I don't understand why some people are arguing in favor of balance.
Almost EVERY pro Terran-- yea that's right pro not random poster on TL-- says the matchup became completely imbalanced after the Queen buff.
Hell, DRG, Catz, idra, and Stephano even say Z has the advantage-- DRG even laughed in an interview and said he wants a group with 3 Terrans.
MKP said his winrate in tvz went from 60% to 10%. Ryung says he can't even beat NA Zergs. If you are INSANELY better than your opponent, you should win.
No bullshit about "metagame" should even come into discussion. Ryung should roll Ostojiy 10 times in a row, but this patch has really made it impossible for Terran to take advantage of being more skilled because literally nothing in the game can punish mass queen/drone 3 base.
Hell, watch Dimaga vs Brat-ok at Dreamhack. 9 Queens, 3 base, 80 drones at 8:30. That should NOT be standard or possible. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I have not once seen any terrans try anything besides the old pre-patch build. Yes, just like with nearly ever single other buff, the matchup becomes imbalanced for a while. Newsflash: complaining that terran sucks on the forums will do absolutly nothing to help change the fact. I play zerg and I will tell you right now that it is very obvious that TvZ is imba right now. You are not the first one to post this. Infact, there are 70 pages already of people complaining about the matchup. Maybe instead of pointless complaining, we try to progress and actually start doing something other than wasting your time on the forums.
Newflash1: Terran pros aren't stupid or lazy, they do try new things and try to invent something to be able to beat zergs again, because they need to beat zergs to be able to continue make a living out of this game.
Conclusion: If you see mostly the same builds in tournaments, that's because the new innovations have done worse than them in practice, what is shown in tournaments are the best builds that the player has been able to design.
Newflash2: The idea that terrans are still doing the same builds as prepatch is mostly a myth, yes there are definitely similarities, for example helions are still popular early on, but there are huge differences aswell. If you watched a lot of TvZ prepatch and postpatch and actually payed attention to the exact builds you'd notice that terrans nowadays play full bio a lot more often, that they nearly always open with either helion+banshee aggression or a helion+mmm timing push, which existed prepatch but wasn't as popular back then. Thirdly terrans cut much more corners, trying to play risky, as playing completely standard nowadays means that you'll end up so far behind that the zerg can a move and bust you unless he doesn't know how to macro.
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On June 24 2012 12:43 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:37 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:32 xrapture wrote:
I don't understand why some people are arguing in favor of balance.
Almost EVERY pro Terran-- yea that's right pro not random poster on TL-- says the matchup became completely imbalanced after the Queen buff.
Hell, DRG, Catz, idra, and Stephano even say Z has the advantage-- DRG even laughed in an interview and said he wants a group with 3 Terrans.
MKP said his winrate in tvz went from 60% to 10%. Ryung says he can't even beat NA Zergs. If you are INSANELY better than your opponent, you should win.
No bullshit about "metagame" should even come into discussion. Ryung should roll Ostojiy 10 times in a row, but this patch has really made it impossible for Terran to take advantage of being more skilled because literally nothing in the game can punish mass queen/drone 3 base.
Hell, watch Dimaga vs Brat-ok at Dreamhack. 9 Queens, 3 base, 80 drones at 8:30. That should NOT be standard or possible. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I have not once seen any terrans try anything besides the old pre-patch build. Yes, just like with nearly ever single other buff, the matchup becomes imbalanced for a while. Newsflash: complaining that terran sucks on the forums will do absolutly nothing to help change the fact. I play zerg and I will tell you right now that it is very obvious that TvZ is imba right now. You are not the first one to post this. Infact, there are 70 pages already of people complaining about the matchup. Maybe instead of pointless complaining, we try to progress and actually start doing something other than wasting your time on the forums. Newflash1: Terran pros aren't stupid or lazy, they do try new things and try to invent something to be able to beat zergs again, because they need to beat zergs to be able to continue make a living out of this game. Conclusion: If you see mostly the same builds in tournaments, that's because the new innovations have done worse than them in practice, what is shown in tournaments are the best builds that the player has been able to design. Newflash2: The idea that terrans are still doing the same builds as prepatch is mostly a myth, yes there are definitely similarities, for example helions are still popular early on, but there are huge differences aswell. If you watched a lot of TvZ prepatch and postpatch and actually payed attention to the exact builds you'd notice that terrans nowadays play full bio a lot more often, that they nearly always open with either helion+banshee aggression or a helion+mmm timing push, which existed prepatch but wasn't as popular back then. Thirdly terrans cut much more corners, trying to play risky, as playing completely standard nowadays means that you'll end up so far behind that the zerg can a move and bust you unless he doesn't know how to macro.
And at the same time, if your starting pressure doesn't do much, you also flat out lose.
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On June 24 2012 12:36 Inquisitor1323 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 12:12 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
Hide nested quote -
Claiming Zerg imba based on queens is like this, or at least I feel it is.
Say you're driving your car downhill, and that you have run out of gas. (Suppose you didn't notice the engine stopped and that your fuel gauge was broken.) Now let's say you pull into a garage, still coasting downhill,
No in a ways he was in fact correct. The Queen patch only looks overpowered because lack of Terran Lategame versus Zerg. This queen patch exposed the underlying core of TvZ: extremely weak terran lategame. If Terran had a stronger lategame then the queens would not be as strong as they are now because Terran would be able to abuse economic stratagies that would favor their lategame over the zergs'. However, zergs have the uperhand as of right now even if terrans abuse triple orbital builds.
Yeah I agree with him there. This patch is bad because zerg lategame now happens a lot more often.
I will agree that I think a best solution would be to make terrans lategame stronger. That being said, I still feel it's pretty redicilous that a zerg can basically be safe from pretty much every allin, just from playing a very economical opening. This especially since with the new overlord, scouting is so much easier, something I'd have thought was enough of a boost against these allins Blizzard seems so scared of(behind those 4 hellions).
Thing is though, TvZ was basically working like TvP is currently working. In the midgame, the terran is required to get himself into an advantageous position, so T can fight straight up in the lategame. While I don't like the idea that much, it was working, and removing the way for terran to get into that position obviously yer, makes things terrible for the T.
Since I'm heavily against this balancing model(T to need to get ahead to be even), I've still been wondering if the game would be better without it. The thing is, the model creates a tempo for the game, the T has to keep the aggression rolling all though out the game, so it does create interesting MUs, just terrible playing experience for the T.
On June 24 2012 12:40 YumYumGranola wrote:
As a low masters Terran who mechs a lot vs Zerg I dont mind the change too much. Seems like a lot of zergs take the "you only need 6 queens to defend anything" a bit too literally and they can easily be exploited by 2 fact hellion plays to either seriously delay their 3rd or outright win with a runby. You know what though? I think that blizzard should give the reaper speed upgrade back to pre-fact status now. That would at least give terrans a better economical harass option that transitions better into marine/tank or pure bio.
God please no, that'd ruin TvT :/ The maps really aren't made for such early speed reapers
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