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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 24 2012 03:41 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:29 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc. To do that you would bneed to nerf Colossi else TvP would become completely impossible. You can't make that combination do much more damage . Storm isn't as good as you think is right now. Ghost builds DESTROY archon/chargelot/templar right now, and snipe is a very good ability too. I think it'd be very balanced.
If you think ghost builds destroy archon/chargelot/templar you clearly haven't watched much gsl, making those changes would make tvp impossible to win at gsl level, high templar are strong enough as is, and the increased snipe damage would hardly compensate.
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On June 24 2012 02:57 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:50 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:49 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:
[quote]
Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes  . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. DRG only recently has had success I'm done with this thread. My life is a lie. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/DongRaeGu Here you go DRG until August of last year hadn't won a major singles tournament. And not until March of this year was able to win GSL in a season where the round of 16 was 50% Terren. I'd say that's fairly recent. And please don't ignore the rest of the post. Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:52 Chaggi wrote:On June 24 2012 02:49 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:
[quote]
Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. DRG only recently has had success and your telling me 1 player with 60% with ratio makes the match up balanced? Maybe I'll tell you about MMA's 70%+ win ratio against Zerg doesn't that work the same way? Really man your talking about the highest caliber players and if you include all of a players wins it includes players who aren't on there level 100% of DRGs games were not against MVP which is the balance we should be concerned with not him vs random GM Terren X DRG's had success for the last year. How is that recent? MMA's TvZ was actually legendary, his style of play with multi-pronged drops constantly throughout the game was a style that no zergs had ever seen before, and no one else can pull it off. Like I said above (editing this on) his foreign tournament wins came mid last year and his only success before then was in GSTL. And to call MMA's play impossible to replicate is a bit stretch it is very possible to do with practice.
I`m sorry but wtf did you just post? DRG not successful until recently? Just because a player doesn`t win a GSL everytime like MVP doesn`t mean hes not successful. If that was the criteria of a successful player then damn.......
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On June 24 2012 03:42 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:40 submarine wrote:On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc. How does that even help terran? With reduced range snipe is useless against broodlords because broodlings will just block your ghosts from getting snipes off. And sniping casters will be even harder. The random storm change makes even less sense. Don't you remember when snipe wrecked EVERYTHING in TvZ, so they patched it from 45 to 25 -.-. It's range would be good. For reference Snipe range is 10 and Broodlord Range is 9.5, even with slightly shorter range the ghosts are able to get within range to pull off a numerous snipes on a unit to kill it, only difference is they'd take a bit more damage now. Plus it'd get A LOT stronger vs infestor, ultralisk, and muta.
It seems strange that a big deal was made about mass ghosts being effective vs ultras and broodlords, when Infestors remain the counter to every unit in the game.
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On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:33 Sroobz wrote:
This is just wrong. Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year? Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain. Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse.
zergs complaining about having to play reactionary, when they are the reactionary race. seems legit.((P.s. stop calling yourself the reactionary race.. Because after the Queen buff, you are no longer the reactionary race, but Terran is))
thing is, after the queen buff, you can still count the number of zerg openings on one hand, with fewer fingers. But instead of using your toes for Terran, now you only need one hand also, taking away a whole lot from this game..
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^ This guy knows whats up. Im so disappointed in Terran that i had to switch to Z to maintain my master status. I hate zvz so much its so often and my zvt is just rofl. Blizzard really really fucked up this time. sad panda
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Canada13425 Posts
On June 24 2012 03:46 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc. Yeah, increase storm damage so it melts the bio army even faster.
The reason he is suggesting storm change is because right now, Protoss completely relies on the archon toilet to beat broodlords/infestor combo.
Even if you kill the infestors, with enough broodlords, protoss can not kill a mass broodlord army without archon toilet.
You can slowly widdle away at it while engaging inefficiently IF you trade army for Zerg economy. And this relies on the Zerg not having a ton of defensive structures. I think we have all seen the Dimaga games where he has no base or one base and makes a trillion spines and sits his broodlord infestor army on top of it.
The protoss can not break it without a very good vortex and then getting archons into the vortex.
Quite simply, the problem might not be Terran late game, in TvP you don't see enough ghosts in my opinion. With enough ghosts to emp everything you can do very very well especially considering ghosts do relatively well against zealots. The issue might just be the broodlord infestor combination which is difficult for both protoss and terran to deal with.
At least against ultralisks, terran has the option of micro to try and deal with it and often terrans can combat ultras pretty well, with the only exception being when there is a tech switch from broods and the Terran has a lot of useless vikings.
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On June 24 2012 03:51 sGs.Stregon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:
[quote]
Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year?
Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain. Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. zergs complaining about having to play reactionary, when they are the reactionary race. seems legit.((P.s. stop calling yourself the reactionary race.. Because after the Queen buff, you are no longer the reactionary race, but Terran is)) thing is, after the queen buff, you can still count the number of zerg openings on one hand, with fewer fingers. But instead of using your toes for Terran, now you only need one hand also, taking away a whole lot from this game..
The reactionary race can't react can't react if they are forever contained when economy is suppose to be zerg's biggest advantage. Also that's a lie about Terren openings there are still tons of viable ones did you watch Bratok this last weekend? Or what about MKP at the last MLG? Apparently they don't share your same thoughts.
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On June 24 2012 03:42 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:40 submarine wrote:On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc. How does that even help terran? With reduced range snipe is useless against broodlords because broodlings will just block your ghosts from getting snipes off. And sniping casters will be even harder. The random storm change makes even less sense. Don't you remember when snipe wrecked EVERYTHING in TvZ, so they patched it from 45 to 25 -.-. It's range would be good.
Snipe range is 10. BL range is 9.5. I would not be to sure how that would work out. And "wrecked EVERYTHING in TvZ" is a little bit exaggerated. It was ok against ultras and kind of great against BLs. Sniping casters would be far harder.
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I've started going 1rax FE into 2 factory BF hellions. It's a huge gamble that sometimes pays off. Kinda sucks that I have to go all-in to damage a zerg that goes 3 bases and 70 drones off nothing but 6 queens  .
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On June 24 2012 03:55 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:51 sGs.Stregon wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. zergs complaining about having to play reactionary, when they are the reactionary race. seems legit.((P.s. stop calling yourself the reactionary race.. Because after the Queen buff, you are no longer the reactionary race, but Terran is)) thing is, after the queen buff, you can still count the number of zerg openings on one hand, with fewer fingers. But instead of using your toes for Terran, now you only need one hand also, taking away a whole lot from this game.. The reactionary race can't react can't react if they are forever contained when economy is suppose to be zerg's biggest advantage. Also that's a lie about Terren openings there are still tons of viable ones did you watch Bratok this last weekend? Or what about MKP at the last MLG? Apparently they don't share your same thoughts.
Zergs have a funny definition of "forever contained." You couldn't take a 6 minute third with the old Hellion openers. You consider a 6 minute third standard, or something?
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On June 24 2012 03:57 SnipedSoul wrote:I've started going 1rax FE into 2 factory BF hellions. It's a huge gamble that sometimes pays off. Kinda sucks that I have to go all-in to damage a zerg that goes 3 bases and 70 drones off nothing but 6 queens .
You actually don't have to go blue flame or double factory if you go constant production hellions and micro them so they don't die your ok. Then from there you can either go banshee/raven, mech, or into 3rd fast CC. Once you build up enough hellions you can mass splash queens and hell if you see him going all Queens pull scvs and w/e else you have been making and go kill him.
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Canada13425 Posts
On June 24 2012 03:58 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:55 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 03:51 sGs.Stregon wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. zergs complaining about having to play reactionary, when they are the reactionary race. seems legit.((P.s. stop calling yourself the reactionary race.. Because after the Queen buff, you are no longer the reactionary race, but Terran is)) thing is, after the queen buff, you can still count the number of zerg openings on one hand, with fewer fingers. But instead of using your toes for Terran, now you only need one hand also, taking away a whole lot from this game.. The reactionary race can't react can't react if they are forever contained when economy is suppose to be zerg's biggest advantage. Also that's a lie about Terren openings there are still tons of viable ones did you watch Bratok this last weekend? Or what about MKP at the last MLG? Apparently they don't share your same thoughts. Zergs have a funny definition of "forever contained." You couldn't take a 6 minute third with the old Hellion openers. You consider a 6 minute third standard, or something?
No it should be earlier, like the 5 minute third in ZvP alongside an 11 minute hive and 4th base if the toss takes a fast 3rd >.<
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On June 24 2012 03:42 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:40 submarine wrote:On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc. How does that even help terran? With reduced range snipe is useless against broodlords because broodlings will just block your ghosts from getting snipes off. And sniping casters will be even harder. The random storm change makes even less sense. Don't you remember when snipe wrecked EVERYTHING in TvZ, so they patched it from 45 to 25 -.-. It's range would be good. For reference Snipe range is 10 and Broodlord Range is 9.5, even with slightly shorter range the ghosts are able to get within range to pull off a numerous snipes on a unit to kill it, only difference is they'd take a bit more damage now. Plus it'd get A LOT stronger vs infestor, ultralisk, and muta.
Snipe already does 50 dmg to infestors. And how the reduced range would work out in BL vs Ghost is pure speculation.
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I play Zerg since the beginning, I went through times where Zerg was horendously underpowered.
Good that times have changed now ^.^
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On June 24 2012 03:58 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:55 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 03:51 sGs.Stregon wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. zergs complaining about having to play reactionary, when they are the reactionary race. seems legit.((P.s. stop calling yourself the reactionary race.. Because after the Queen buff, you are no longer the reactionary race, but Terran is)) thing is, after the queen buff, you can still count the number of zerg openings on one hand, with fewer fingers. But instead of using your toes for Terran, now you only need one hand also, taking away a whole lot from this game.. The reactionary race can't react can't react if they are forever contained when economy is suppose to be zerg's biggest advantage. Also that's a lie about Terren openings there are still tons of viable ones did you watch Bratok this last weekend? Or what about MKP at the last MLG? Apparently they don't share your same thoughts. Zergs have a funny definition of "forever contained." You couldn't take a 6 minute third with the old Hellion openers. You consider a 6 minute third standard, or something?
Yes it is before the latest patch (and currently depending on the T's build) Zerg gets a 10 min 3rd which is way too late and comes with a triple orbital terran behind it. 6min is a time when any Zerg would want his third coming up but with the way hellions and zerg interacted terren got 3 free bases while zerg had to work for his 3rd. The way zerg way prepatch was turtle till infestors then try to double expand because your way behind or since econ into expensive roaches and be even more behind. That's how that should work right?
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On June 24 2012 04:04 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:58 Shiori wrote:On June 24 2012 03:55 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 03:51 sGs.Stregon wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:
[quote]
Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. zergs complaining about having to play reactionary, when they are the reactionary race. seems legit.((P.s. stop calling yourself the reactionary race.. Because after the Queen buff, you are no longer the reactionary race, but Terran is)) thing is, after the queen buff, you can still count the number of zerg openings on one hand, with fewer fingers. But instead of using your toes for Terran, now you only need one hand also, taking away a whole lot from this game.. The reactionary race can't react can't react if they are forever contained when economy is suppose to be zerg's biggest advantage. Also that's a lie about Terren openings there are still tons of viable ones did you watch Bratok this last weekend? Or what about MKP at the last MLG? Apparently they don't share your same thoughts. Zergs have a funny definition of "forever contained." You couldn't take a 6 minute third with the old Hellion openers. You consider a 6 minute third standard, or something? Yes it is before the latest patch (and currently depending on the T's build) Zerg gets a 10 min 3rd which is way too late and comes with a triple orbital terran behind it. 6min is a time when any Zerg would want his third coming up but with the way hellions and zerg interacted terren got 3 free bases while zerg had to work for his 3rd.
How about building a few freaking Roaches or a decent amount of Ling ( SOMETHING from your Larva ) if you really want an early third ? Stephano did it before the patch and was fairly successful with it even if he didn't get aggresive with them. Queens should not be as strong as they are while still providing creep/transfuse. Getting Queens is beneficial early and late while getting Helions/Banshees ( the only units that don't 100% die of you play aggresive with them early ) is only for early later those units are not that great.
And for the love of god is TERRAN not terren you schmuck.
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Its pretty clear that terran is getting dominated by zerg nowadays...Blizzard should notice this.
We could just take a quick look at online tournaments and see how much zerg is dominating. In playhem zerg has won way more medals than terran and protoss. Also, if we look at the qualifiers for TSL we see zerg and protoss in the top of the bracket, not terrans. The same goes for HSV qualifiers.
There is no way for terran to punish greedy play from zerg anymore, that is the big problem. And trying to keep up with the zerg macro without being able to make pressure is impossible, that is a well known fact. If the zerg doesnt screw up badly, the zerg will always win. It's as simple as that.
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On June 24 2012 04:04 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:58 Shiori wrote:On June 24 2012 03:55 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 03:51 sGs.Stregon wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:
[quote]
Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. zergs complaining about having to play reactionary, when they are the reactionary race. seems legit.((P.s. stop calling yourself the reactionary race.. Because after the Queen buff, you are no longer the reactionary race, but Terran is)) thing is, after the queen buff, you can still count the number of zerg openings on one hand, with fewer fingers. But instead of using your toes for Terran, now you only need one hand also, taking away a whole lot from this game.. The reactionary race can't react can't react if they are forever contained when economy is suppose to be zerg's biggest advantage. Also that's a lie about Terren openings there are still tons of viable ones did you watch Bratok this last weekend? Or what about MKP at the last MLG? Apparently they don't share your same thoughts. Zergs have a funny definition of "forever contained." You couldn't take a 6 minute third with the old Hellion openers. You consider a 6 minute third standard, or something? Yes it is before the latest patch (and currently depending on the T's build) Zerg gets a 10 min 3rd which is way too late and comes with a triple orbital terran behind it. 6min is a time when any Zerg would want his third coming up but with the way hellions and zerg interacted terren got 3 free bases while zerg had to work for his 3rd. The way zerg way prepatch was turtle till infestors then try to double expand because your way behind or since econ into expensive roaches and be even more behind. That's how that should work right?
You know that zerg could just hide a drone, lay down the 3rd at 6 and defend it with 3 roaches later? "Contained till 10" did not really happen if the zerg really wanted to break it.
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Roaches are in no way an efficient way to deal with hellions. They are slow so hellion run bys are still present and cut heavily into your gas. If the Terran goes banshee the third will still fall regardless of the roach count unless your gonna tell me roach queen spore is a good way to go........ I love getting that far behind I like it a lot.
Also hoping on a terran is lazy is not a smart way to play.
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On June 24 2012 04:24 CajunMan wrote:
Roaches are in no way an efficient way to deal with hellions. They are slow so hellion run bys are still present and cut heavily into your gas. If the Terran goes banshee the third will still fall regardless of the roach count unless your gonna tell me roach queen spore is a good way to go........ I love getting that far behind I like it a lot.
Also hoping on a terran is lazy is not a smart way to play.
so how else do you expect terran to get even with a zerg that all he does is 5v6v7v4sddddddvvdddddddvvdddd (while making queens) the first 15 minutes even if we try to make do with some pressure?
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EPT
