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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 24 2012 02:49 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes  . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. DRG only recently has had success and your telling me 1 player with 60% with ratio makes the match up balanced? Maybe I'll tell you about MMA's 70%+ win ratio against Zerg doesn't that work the same way? Really man your talking about the highest caliber players and if you include all of a players wins it includes players who aren't on there level 100% of DRGs games were not against MVP which is the balance we should be concerned with not him vs random GM Terren X
DRG's had success for the last year. How is that recent?
MMA's TvZ was actually legendary, his style of play with multi-pronged drops constantly throughout the game was a style that no zergs had ever seen before, and no one else can pull it off.
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On June 24 2012 02:50 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:49 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. DRG only recently has had success I'm done with this thread. My life is a lie.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/DongRaeGu Here you go DRG until August of last year hadn't won a major singles tournament. And not until March of this year was able to win GSL in a season where the round of 16 was 50% Terren. I'd say that's fairly recent.
And please don't ignore the rest of the post.
On June 24 2012 02:52 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:49 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. DRG only recently has had success and your telling me 1 player with 60% with ratio makes the match up balanced? Maybe I'll tell you about MMA's 70%+ win ratio against Zerg doesn't that work the same way? Really man your talking about the highest caliber players and if you include all of a players wins it includes players who aren't on there level 100% of DRGs games were not against MVP which is the balance we should be concerned with not him vs random GM Terren X DRG's had success for the last year. How is that recent? MMA's TvZ was actually legendary, his style of play with multi-pronged drops constantly throughout the game was a style that no zergs had ever seen before, and no one else can pull it off.
Like I said above (editing this on) his foreign tournament wins came mid last year and his only success before then was in GSTL. And to call MMA's play impossible to replicate is a bit stretch it is very possible to do with practice.
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On June 24 2012 02:51 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:48 lorkac wrote:
Unlike, say, a roach buff where you can see how effective/uneffective it is by simply seeing it in combat--the queen buff simply creates timing and droning issues. This is an overly abstract concept to gauge properly and will need a lot more time to fix.
One this is for certain--if blizzard and hopefully the community wants games to reach late game more often, then Terran needs better late game options.
Personally, BCs and Thors reverting back to cooldown spells (as well as making those spells AoE) will do the trick. The reason they made them energy based was because protoss would lose against thor pushes. Stupidly easily lose to thor pushes. +1 armor thors have the highest dps in the game, have the most repair surface area of any attacking unit and they also have stupid high armor and crazy huge health. Couple that with the fact that strike cannons, on cooldown completely killed any attempt at using immortals to kill the thor just meant protoss lost. It was objectively terrible decision in the past to remove their energy, and blizzard realised it. Similarly, if they realise the Queen buff was too much they will change it.
The thor buff wasn't played out at all. Thor timing pushes were used in only 2 pro games, Thorzain vs Nony, and Thorzain vs MC in TSL3, there were 0 other pro games that used Thors in a timing push like that.
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Have to wait if it the match-up is still heavily tilted towards zergs in the upcoming GSL,GSTL and other tournaments.
then we may see some balance changes.
But i doubt it since Blizzard would realize they admitted to making a mistake if they reverted the queen change.
I am sure though the korean terrans will find a solution.
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Canada13404 Posts
On June 24 2012 02:59 Blyadischa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:51 ZeromuS wrote:On June 24 2012 02:48 lorkac wrote:
Unlike, say, a roach buff where you can see how effective/uneffective it is by simply seeing it in combat--the queen buff simply creates timing and droning issues. This is an overly abstract concept to gauge properly and will need a lot more time to fix.
One this is for certain--if blizzard and hopefully the community wants games to reach late game more often, then Terran needs better late game options.
Personally, BCs and Thors reverting back to cooldown spells (as well as making those spells AoE) will do the trick. The reason they made them energy based was because protoss would lose against thor pushes. Stupidly easily lose to thor pushes. +1 armor thors have the highest dps in the game, have the most repair surface area of any attacking unit and they also have stupid high armor and crazy huge health. Couple that with the fact that strike cannons, on cooldown completely killed any attempt at using immortals to kill the thor just meant protoss lost. It was objectively terrible decision in the past to remove their energy, and blizzard realised it. Similarly, if they realise the Queen buff was too much they will change it. The thor buff wasn't played out at all. Thor timing pushes were used in only 2 pro games, Thorzain vs Nony, and Thorzain vs MC in TSL3, there were 0 other pro games that used Thors in a timing push like that.
Ladder was rife with issues and in general people of all levels including the GM players agreed and so did blizzard it was a bad idea.
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On June 24 2012 02:59 FakeDeath wrote:
Have to wait if it the match-up is still heavily tilted towards zergs in the upcoming GSL,GSTL and other tournaments.
then we may see some balance changes.
But i doubt it since Blizzard would realize they admitted to making a mistake if they reverted the queen change.
I am sure though the korean terrans will find a solution.
to give a more accurate winrate of tvz after the patch:
[–]sheltered 27 points 7 hours ago*
I can give you TvZ from the GSL up and downs, the GSL qualifiers, and the GSTL if that helps?
There have been 112 games total played, Zerg have won 83 of them while Terran have won 29, giving Zergs about a 74% win rate.
And here you go
"He had a 5-1 record in the 2011 GSTL May, counting for almost the half of team MVP's games won. It was the best record of the season (GuMiho was the next best-performing player with a 5-2 record).
DongRaeGu delivered an even better performance in the 2011 GSTL Season 1, with a stunning 13-2 record (and ten consecutive wins, the longest streak ever achieved in this competition). DongRaeGu's wins counted for two third of MVP's games won in the group stage, and his record was way ahead of the next-best player, Bomber, who had an overall 8-4 record."
From Liquidpedia DRG's page.
Yea. Sure, he may not have won an individual tournament till a bit later but he was/is a teamleague monster
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On June 24 2012 02:57 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:50 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:49 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:
[quote]
Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. DRG only recently has had success I'm done with this thread. My life is a lie. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/DongRaeGu Here you go DRG until August of last year hadn't won a major singles tournament. And not until March of this year was able to win GSL in a season where the round of 16 was 50% Terren. I'd say that's fairly recent. And please don't ignore the rest of the post.
Taken from your post.
On May 17th 2011 DRG beats MarineKing in the GSTL (His first EVER broadcasted match)
On May 18th 2011 DRG beats NaDa and Supernova in the GSTL
On May 19th 2011 DRG beats Ganzi but loses to MMA in the GSTL
On June 18th 2011 DongRaeGu beats sC in the LG Cinema 3D final
On June 23rd 2011 DRG beats Boxer, Ganzi, and MMA in the GSTL
On July 7th 2011 DRG beats Nada in the GSTL
On August 8th 2011 DRG beats MarineKing and Polt in the GSTL
Here you go. Basically everything DRG related before his "supposed first success" according to you.
None of this matters though. Zerg was basically fine before the patch. Hellions didn't affect the good zergs, except for the occasional blueflame or double reactor, which is solved by the overlord change.
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On June 24 2012 03:08 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:57 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:50 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:49 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:
[quote]
Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. DRG only recently has had success I'm done with this thread. My life is a lie. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/DongRaeGu Here you go DRG until August of last year hadn't won a major singles tournament. And not until March of this year was able to win GSL in a season where the round of 16 was 50% Terren. I'd say that's fairly recent. And please don't ignore the rest of the post. Taken from your post. On May 17th 2011 DRG beats MarineKing in the GSTL (His first EVER broadcasted match) On May 18th 2011 DRG beats NaDa and Supernova in the GSTL On May 19th 2011 DRG beats Ganzi but loses to MMA in the GSTL On June 18th 2011 DongRaeGu beats sC in the LG Cinema 3D final On June 23rd 2011 DRG beats Boxer, Ganzi, and MMA in the GSTL On July 7th 2011 DRG beats Nada in the GSTL On August 8th 2011 DRG beats MarineKing and Polt in the GSTL Here you go. Basically everything DRG related before his "supposed first success" according to you.
basically those are some of the best Terrans at that time too. SlayerS's was pretty much known for their Terran play, especially TvZ strats and builds.
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On June 24 2012 03:08 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:57 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:50 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:49 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:
[quote]
Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. DRG only recently has had success I'm done with this thread. My life is a lie. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/DongRaeGu Here you go DRG until August of last year hadn't won a major singles tournament. And not until March of this year was able to win GSL in a season where the round of 16 was 50% Terren. I'd say that's fairly recent. And please don't ignore the rest of the post. Taken from your post. On May 17th 2011 DRG beats MarineKing in the GSTL (His first EVER broadcasted match) On May 18th 2011 DRG beats NaDa and Supernova in the GSTL On May 19th 2011 DRG beats Ganzi but loses to MMA in the GSTL On June 18th 2011 DongRaeGu beats sC in the LG Cinema 3D final On June 23rd 2011 DRG beats Boxer, Ganzi, and MMA in the GSTL On July 7th 2011 DRG beats Nada in the GSTL On August 8th 2011 DRG beats MarineKing and Polt in the GSTL Here you go. Basically everything DRG related before his "supposed first success" according to you. None of this matters though. Zerg was basically fine before the patch. Hellions didn't affect the good zergs, except for the occasional blueflame or double reactor, which is solved by the overlord change.
Why are you arguing this? I said DRG wasn't as good as he is now before. Which is true he won GSTL games congrats!!!!! Still doesn't discredit the rest of what I said for some reason you are arguing why DRG is good and not the TvZ balance when you only used DRG as an example as a good zerg. He is yay how does that prove me wrong? You tried to make some connection between win percentage of 1 player to the overall balance of a matchup. That doesn't make a good argument as I showed with my MMA example I could say MVP too if you don't like MMA.
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Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc.
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On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc.
To do that you would bneed to nerf Colossi else TvP would become completely impossible. You can't make that combination do much more damage .
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On June 24 2012 02:51 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:48 lorkac wrote:
Unlike, say, a roach buff where you can see how effective/uneffective it is by simply seeing it in combat--the queen buff simply creates timing and droning issues. This is an overly abstract concept to gauge properly and will need a lot more time to fix.
One this is for certain--if blizzard and hopefully the community wants games to reach late game more often, then Terran needs better late game options.
Personally, BCs and Thors reverting back to cooldown spells (as well as making those spells AoE) will do the trick. The reason they made them energy based was because protoss would lose against thor pushes. Stupidly easily lose to thor pushes. +1 armor thors have the highest dps in the game, have the most repair surface area of any attacking unit and they also have stupid high armor and crazy huge health. Couple that with the fact that strike cannons, on cooldown completely killed any attempt at using immortals to kill the thor just meant protoss lost.
It was objectively terrible decision in the past to remove their energy, and blizzard realised it. Similarly, if they realise the Queen buff was too much they will change it.
Wrong
they changed it because using lots of thors was killing esports (because the thor image was bigger than what the thor actually is... wonder why they don't like... shrink the image durr)
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I'm not sure if it's too strong but it's made terran players less aggressive which has made the matchup alot more passive and less interesting to watch.
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On June 24 2012 02:57 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:50 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:49 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:
[quote]
Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. DRG only recently has had success I'm done with this thread. My life is a lie. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/DongRaeGu Here you go DRG until August of last year hadn't won a major singles tournament. And not until March of this year was able to win GSL in a season where the round of 16 was 50% Terren. I'd say that's fairly recent. And please don't ignore the rest of the post. Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:52 Chaggi wrote:On June 24 2012 02:49 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:
[quote]
Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. DRG only recently has had success and your telling me 1 player with 60% with ratio makes the match up balanced? Maybe I'll tell you about MMA's 70%+ win ratio against Zerg doesn't that work the same way? Really man your talking about the highest caliber players and if you include all of a players wins it includes players who aren't on there level 100% of DRGs games were not against MVP which is the balance we should be concerned with not him vs random GM Terren X DRG's had success for the last year. How is that recent? MMA's TvZ was actually legendary, his style of play with multi-pronged drops constantly throughout the game was a style that no zergs had ever seen before, and no one else can pull it off. Like I said above (editing this on) his foreign tournament wins came mid last year and his only success before then was in GSTL. And to call MMA's play impossible to replicate is a bit stretch it is very possible to do with practice.
Having ones only success in the premier teamleague in the world is not exactly something to look down on. Also merely calling it sucess does not do justice to how dominate DRG was in teamleague since his first appearence. When they won teamleague it seemed like every series they sent him out down at least 1 game to opponent and he would just beat the entire team.
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On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc.
How does that even help terran?
With reduced range snipe is useless against broodlords because broodlings will just block your ghosts from getting snipes off. And sniping casters will be even harder. The random storm change makes even less sense.
Far better would be a hold fire command for tanks.
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On June 24 2012 03:29 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc. To do that you would bneed to nerf Colossi else TvP would become completely impossible. You can't make that combination do much more damage .
I could honestly be very happy if they announced HotS would no longer feature the collosus. Everything it touches ruins games.
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On June 24 2012 03:29 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc. To do that you would bneed to nerf Colossi else TvP would become completely impossible. You can't make that combination do much more damage .
Storm isn't as good as you think is right now. Ghost builds DESTROY archon/chargelot/templar right now, and snipe is a very good ability too. I think it'd be very balanced.
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On June 24 2012 03:40 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc. How does that even help terran? With reduced range snipe is useless against broodlords because broodlings will just block your ghosts from getting snipes off. And sniping casters will be even harder. The random storm change makes even less sense.
Don't you remember when snipe wrecked EVERYTHING in TvZ, so they patched it from 45 to 25 -.-. It's range would be good. For reference Snipe range is 10 and Broodlord Range is 9.5, even with slightly shorter range the ghosts are able to get within range to pull off a numerous snipes on a unit to kill it, only difference is they'd take a bit more damage now. Plus it'd get A LOT stronger vs infestor, ultralisk, and muta.
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On June 24 2012 03:41 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:29 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc. To do that you would bneed to nerf Colossi else TvP would become completely impossible. You can't make that combination do much more damage . Storm isn't as good as you think is right now. Ghost builds DESTROY archon/chargelot/templar right now, and snipe is a very good ability too. I think it'd be very balanced.
Storm or Colossi alone are not the problem and even with a buff to either wouldn't be. It would make dealing with both together though even harder almost impossible. You can't buff one of the two without nerfing the other.
You can dodge Storm but you can't really with Colossi that will allways hit also shooting at you. As well killing Colossi without storm is very doable but with Storm around becomes ALOT harder.
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On June 24 2012 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Honestly I would say zerg is too strong. I play protoss and don't actually play the game all that much anymore but...
Right now top zergs can just play the standard style into broodlord, and the way that it's done right now if the zerg is good (top 10 zerg), the terran actually has to play perfect to win. I think the terran needs a little bit more leeway and force the zerg to do a different build instead of the generic build over and over. One little zergling surround and a sniped drop, and the terran can pretty much tap out.
Terran still probably has the strongest early-mid game, but it feels weaker, but I guess it's fine. Honestly I think every problem right now stems from the fact that T lategame is weak. The balance changes I'd like to see:
-Increase Snipe Damage to 40-45
-Decrease Snipe Range by 1
-Increase Storm damage from 80 to 90-100
I think that would fix mostly everything, if the queen change is reverted I feel like the story will be the same as before, either terran wins with constant aggression or zerg wins in lategame with broodlord/infestor/etc.
Yeah, increase storm damage so it melts the bio army even faster.
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EPT
