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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:33 Sroobz wrote:
This is just wrong. Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year? Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain. Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32.
Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet.
Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S.
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Hey _Pulse_
Thanks for your post and the effort you put into it. Really enjoyed it. There are some valuable points made. The only concern I have is my experience, that those "walls of text" comments are not followed close enough by some/most people in forums.
So maybe you are willing and could spent some more time to give us a short version of it. Like your 5 mayor points, breaking the level of text down to essentially one sentence per argument. Maybe you could repost your initial post while putting the short overview previous of your text. I know, this is easier sad then done. But in my eyes, it could be worth the effort, to get more people reading it closesly.
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On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:33 Sroobz wrote:
This is just wrong. Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year? Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain. Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32.
DRG, Losira, and Leenock were bad and relied heavily on gimmicky greedy styles of play at the time. They didn't become solid players until way later. MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, Polt, etc. were legitimately good (yes, even 1/2 base timing Polt Prime could actually macro when forced to). Not to mention Losira and Leenock were notorious for all-inning for absolutely no reason.
Even when Leenock was good he was taken out by an opponent he SHOULD have beaten, but underestimated and played way too standard. Jjakji took complete advantage of the fact that Leenock is way too hyper aggressive, always wants to counter attack, etc. and beat him cleanly.
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I miss the TL of about 15 months ago when this type of thread would have been shut down a long time ago due to the quality of posts. Here is an example, unnecessary flaming and no warning or anything. This is somewhat becoming the over all trend on a lot of threads here on TL.
On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:33 Sroobz wrote:
This is just wrong. Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year? Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain. Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg.
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On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:33 Sroobz wrote:
This is just wrong. Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year? Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain.
Those graphs are so ridiculously bad and irritating, it's not even funny. Please make charts with linear scaled graphs next time or don't bring them up at all!
You are basically complaing about winratios of 50-53%. Since August 2011 there was only one time, when terran winratio went higher than 54% and that was feb 2012 in korea. This was the time, when the mass ghost abuse was at its peak there. Blizz fixed it immediately (and I must admit, it was an ok change for the matchup!). Aside from that we have had winratios very close to 50%, both in korea and internationally (where a lot of korean matches are counted in too, because since summer 2011 high korean attendance on international tournaments has become a standard). These graphs are absolutely no evidence, that there was something wrong with the matchup. Winratios between 50-53% are just as much as you could ask for. It won't get any better in such a complex eviroment that SC2 is.
In fact these statistics suggest very much, that the matchup was in very good shape before the queen buff!
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On June 24 2012 00:17 Holophonist wrote:
oh my gosh.... STOP TALKING ABOUT ALL-INS. Do you realize how silly it is to actually discuss what kind of early aggression you can do now when the whole point of the patch was to move people away from early aggression? wtf.
I'm watching MVP's stream right now and he just romped a zerg (after a completely shut down cloaked banshee opener) by getting a relatively early third and attacking with mass mass mass marine + tank while always having his reinforcements sieged up and defensive at home to keep safe from counters. Shortly before attacking, he stimmed like 8 marines forward to kill off 3 queens, and then just continued to kill tumors every time he was on creep. He did a couple drops, but nothing too crazy. He just straight up played solid and actually dealt with one of the biggest problems: creep.
No early aggression? So, Terran is at its best early-mid game, and Browder says that Terran MUST take the early-mid game to our advantage with constant harassment and whatnot, yet they make a patch that wants us NOT to do early aggression?
The way I see, Blizzard isn't looking at the big picture. All they see are 4 hellions keeping Zerg on 2 base and go "Oh man, that's not how you're supposed to use Hellions! We have to change that!" ignoring the fact that Zerg is able to handle it.
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On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:33 Sroobz wrote:
This is just wrong. Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year? Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain. Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S.
To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging.
I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes  . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse.
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Hi Cloud!
Nice to have you here, following the discussion. Really appreciate your opinion on the matter.
I know that your profession doesn't leave you with much spare time, but if you could write one more comment on the matter, you probably help many of us in the community to understand the impact of the latest patch from a pro terran perspective.
So I would kindly ask you the following things:
1) Could you give us, in the shortest form, a small overview of terran openers in tvz, that are strongly affected by new timings (creep). How much does the new level of creep spread delay terran keytimings?
2) Which terran openers are left in your eyes?
3) Whats your opinion on allins effected on t and z side of things.
4) How is your winrate in tvz?
5) Are you in touch with other terran and zerg pros and their general opinion on the matter?
Like I already said, I am aware on the level of inconvenience it would cause for you to actually answer these questions. And if you chose to, or simply are not able to respond to this request, I would not blame you in any way.
Looking forward hearing from you. And hopefully Italy beats England, so they can face off germany in the semis.
Greetings from germany
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On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:33 Sroobz wrote:
This is just wrong. Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year? Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain. Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse.
Except Terran didn't dominate so hard.
It was pretty much the most balanced matchup in the game.
If you wanna say it's boring, and cookie cutter, sure whatever. But it was very balanced. You can usually say that the best player wins in TvZ.
Now? lol
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Hi SyrZulu!
Thanks for establishing this thread. I think it is safe to say by now, that your idea of posting on the matter was a succes. Many valuable arguments from both sides. Really enyojed (most) of it.
So close to the 70 page mark, I would like to ask you, how your perception on the discussion is? Did you hear something, that would make you rethink what you initially posted? Or would all of your points still stand after all?
Did you read something, you didn't expect; something that gave you a new inside on the matter?
Good job so far. Please keep up your good work!
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Still think some more time is needed to see the full effects of the queen buff....One month, or even two, is not enough. I think more time will show more innovation from terran players
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On June 24 2012 02:35 FuGGu wrote:
Still think some more time is needed to see the full effects of the queen buff....One month, or even two, is not enough. I think more time will show more innovation from terran players
I don't think innovation will help this time unless every Terran just starts cheesing really really early.
Queens will help the Zerg survive easily into the mid game, and Zerg macro will take over from there to Hive Tech. And Hive Tech vs Terran max'd army is just silly, ever since the ghost nerf - most Terrans just try to end it earlier. But now with the Queen buff, we really can't.
It's not just creep that's getting us but we can't put out enough pressure. And we've taken a lot of nerfs in the last few months, and honestly this one just doesn't make sense.
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On June 24 2012 02:31 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:
[quote]
Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year?
Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain. Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. Except Terran didn't dominate so hard. It was pretty much the most balanced matchup in the game. If you wanna say it's boring, and cookie cutter, sure whatever. But it was very balanced. You can usually say that the best player wins in TvZ. Now? lol
Except they did. Tournaments for the longest time had huge Terren numbers especially GSL as I said before and you can blame that on whatever you think but it is only fact. If you look at the graphs I posted again it shows the disparity in the percentiles at many points especially in Korea. On the last point it was balanced at lower levels the highest level Terrens tear Zergs up exploiting the points I made. Also I only said Zerg was cookie cutter while Terren in in the early game is extremely versatile and cuppled with the hellion contains made top level TvZ unbalanced. Look at builds like Reactored hellion expand into banshee with a viking followup. It shuts down all scouting all any 3rd attempt most aggression and Terren can basically do anything behind it. It is still a viable opening but before the patch zerg had next to no ability to stop it as it gained popularity in the last couple months.
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On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:33 Sroobz wrote:
This is just wrong. Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year? Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain. Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse.
DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
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Unlike, say, a roach buff where you can see how effective/uneffective it is by simply seeing it in combat--the queen buff simply creates timing and droning issues. This is an overly abstract concept to gauge properly and will need a lot more time to fix.
One this is for certain--if blizzard and hopefully the community wants games to reach late game more often, then Terran needs better late game options.
Personally, BCs and Thors reverting back to cooldown spells (as well as making those spells AoE) will do the trick.
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On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:
[quote]
Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year?
Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain. Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
DRG only recently has had success and your telling me 1 player with 60% with ratio makes the match up balanced? Maybe I'll tell you about MMA's 70%+ win ratio against Zerg doesn't that work the same way? Really man your talking about the highest caliber players and if you include all of a players wins it includes players who aren't on there level 100% of DRGs games were not against MVP which is the balance we should be concerned with not him vs random GM Terren X
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On June 24 2012 02:43 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:31 Chaggi wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. Except Terran didn't dominate so hard. It was pretty much the most balanced matchup in the game. If you wanna say it's boring, and cookie cutter, sure whatever. But it was very balanced. You can usually say that the best player wins in TvZ. Now? lol Except they did. Tournaments for the longest time had huge Terren numbers especially GSL as I said before and you can blame that on whatever you think but it is only fact. If you look at the graphs I posted again it shows the disparity in the percentiles at many points especially in Korea. On the last point it was balanced at lower levels the highest level Terrens tear Zergs up exploiting the points I made. Also I only said Zerg was cookie cutter while Terren in in the early game is extremely versatile and cuppled with the hellion contains made top level TvZ unbalanced. Look at builds like Reactored hellion expand into banshee with a viking followup. It shuts down all scouting all any 3rd attempt most aggression and Terren can basically do anything behind it. It is still a viable opening but before the patch zerg had next to no ability to stop it as it gained popularity in the last couple months.
You're literally picking a format of a tournament where preparation against a specific style (which Terran is a damn good race to do with) to use. It was the most balanced matchup in the game, and now it's turned into something that's not. And somehow zergs try to justify this.
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On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:56 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 00:37 CajunMan wrote:
[quote]
Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! If you think otherwise you are dead wrong. Did you never watch GSTVT? for Christ sakes have you been living under a rock for the past year?
Go look at the stats yourself... Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011. I know it's not a lot, but they are favored in more months than just June 2012. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317114 Win rates for 12 months in foreign scene up until February with Terren favored in every single month. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886 Win Rates for 12 months with Korea in this one after 2010 Terren favored by a MASSIVE percentage in Korea up to 60 to 40 Please explain. Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
This. Who are the other Zerg players that deserve to be in the GSL that aren't there? DRG won not long ago. It's just a fact that there are really only 5 or 6 S class Zergs at any one time.
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On June 24 2012 02:49 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 02:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 02:24 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 02:06 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 01:22 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 01:20 superstartran wrote:On June 24 2012 01:18 CajunMan wrote:On June 24 2012 00:59 Sroobz wrote:Did you even read my post? Z is favored May 2012, March 2012, August 2011 in KOREA. This is why I said "This is just wrong" to your post. Please stfu I did read them but 3 random months only show 1 thing the game was patched that month or right before or the meta game shifting heavily. August was right on the heels of infestor play exploding then the next month it is back to Terren favored. Then you quote the last 2 months of Terren QQ including last month with the Queen change your argument is just stupid and you can argument semantics all day but when Terren had 60% win rate in Korea there was nothing like this for Zerg. Terran players for the longest time had MVP, MMA, Top, STC, MKP, among various other excellent players. Zergs in Korea had...... Nestea. Whose worst match-up is TvZ by far, even today. So yes, no shit Terran is going to have an excellent win % in Korea. That's because Zerg players were held down. DRG, Losira, and Leenock were all still playing at that time. Terrens have always had a better win rae especially in the GSL not just the names you mentioned but random terrens dominated the round of 32. Leenock and Losira at times play extremely wonky and stupid styles which is BY FAR the biggest reason they hadn't won anything yet. Tbh there aren't a alot of Zergs solid enough to win a championship even now when Zerg is the strongest race .Other than DRG , Nestea and maybe Symbol every single Zerg has as good a shot at losing to just about anyone Code A/S. To be honest I think that says more about the state of Terren overall before these last few months. TvZ before this latest patch terrens could basically get away with anything because of the options early game to put extreme pressure on zerg. And now that some of those have fallen out of favor or killed with the latest patch you see some of the terrens you listed falling off heavily. For zerg if you don't play a wonky style then you play the same cookie cutter build as everyone else and that is what I believe lead to Terrens dominating so hard and no Zerg heroes emerging. I could count good ZvT zerg openings on 1 hand where as on the flip side Terren I could be including my toes . I think that played a large part in it as well so when you see these good players start to allin/play wonky styles and fail your just watching zerg try to change it up and fail hard because again the builds we have are very constricted and before the queen change was even worse. DongRaeGu, the most standard TvZ player of the past 2 years, has had 60+ win ratio TvZ throughout his whole career. Don't tell me to please stfu, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. DRG only recently has had success
I'm done with this thread. My life is a lie.
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Canada13408 Posts
On June 24 2012 02:48 lorkac wrote:
Unlike, say, a roach buff where you can see how effective/uneffective it is by simply seeing it in combat--the queen buff simply creates timing and droning issues. This is an overly abstract concept to gauge properly and will need a lot more time to fix.
One this is for certain--if blizzard and hopefully the community wants games to reach late game more often, then Terran needs better late game options.
Personally, BCs and Thors reverting back to cooldown spells (as well as making those spells AoE) will do the trick.
The reason they made them energy based was because protoss would lose against thor pushes. Stupidly easily lose to thor pushes. +1 armor thors have the highest dps in the game, have the most repair surface area of any attacking unit and they also have stupid high armor and crazy huge health. Couple that with the fact that strike cannons, on cooldown completely killed any attempt at using immortals to kill the thor just meant protoss lost.
It was objectively terrible decision in the past to remove their energy, and blizzard realised it. Similarly, if they realise the Queen buff was too much they will change it.
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EPT
