EPT1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
One hopes blizzard disagrees with that opinion regarding queens. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On June 23 2012 20:30 iaguz wrote: It's quite possible that a lot of Terrans may have told P that their ability to hold 1/1/1 was shit and they had to figure it out pre-immortal buff. It's also possible that Zergs pre-fungal nerf were telling Protoss l2p. Blizzard disagreed and changed things. One hopes blizzard disagrees with that opinion regarding queens. Guess what? 2 days before the immortal buff hitted, Protoss players had figured out how to hold a 1-1-1. Do you know what the secret was, that they so long were looking for? It was MAKE MORE UNITS AND DON'T FUCK UP YOUR MICRO! Anyone who thinks, the Immortal buff was the reason for 1-1-1 becoming less effective, just doesn't understand the game. The buff just made the hold so easy that protoss these days can even fuck up his positioning and micro totally and still hold. But yeah, Terran players are just way more stupid than Zerg and Protoss and don't know anything about the game. I mean most Zerg players took over 1,5 years to figure out that upgrades are really good while most protoss players kept losing for more than 4months to the same allin over and over again, before they realized that cutting probes and massing up units while stopping upgrades and tech actually helps holding an all-in! So yeah, we are just incompetent in developing new strats. Terran players lack skill and brain and therefor they all deserve to be relegated down to bronze league! User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On June 23 2012 20:38 TeeTS wrote: Guess what? 2 days before the immortal buff hitted, Protoss players had figured out how to hold a 1-1-1. Do you know what the secret was, that they so long were looking for? It was MAKE MORE UNITS AND DON'T FUCK UP YOUR MICRO! Anyone who thinks, the Immortal buff was the reason for 1-1-1 becoming less effective, just doesn't understand the game. The buff just made the hold so easy that protoss these days can even fuck up his positioning and micro totally and still hold. But yeah, Terran players are just way more stupid than Zerg and Protoss and don't know anything about the game. I mean most Zerg players took over 1,5 years to figure out that upgrades are really good while most protoss players kept losing for more than 4months to the same allin over and over again, before they realized that cutting probes and massing up units while stopping upgrades and tech actually helps holding an all-in! So yeah, we are just incompetent in developing new strats. Terran players lack skill and brain and therefor they all deserve to be relegated down to bronze league! I'm pretty sure a lot of Terrans still did 1/1/1 style builds post immortal buff and some of them even had the gall to win with it on occasion, the bastards. PuMa comes to mind, as does MVP vs Parting on Ohana last gsl, and heart vs Huk multiple games an MLG or two ago. Not a lot of examples, just the first three that come to mind. I do know that recently the build has fallen out of favour almost entirely though. Which is sad but oh well. I think the problem with dealing with 1/1/1 builds back in the day for protoss is that it was a bit too... complicated. AS in there were far more variations of 1/1/1 and the counters to them weren't very general, so against some variations a certain defence was strong and against others it was shit and you kinda had to guess a bit which was coming. I like to think the immortal buff sort of generalised the Protoss defence of 1/1/1 and that's a good thing. There's a limit to how specific a defence should havee to be to defeat a timing. | ||
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uzushould
Austria122 Posts
On June 23 2012 20:38 TeeTS wrote: Guess what? 2 days before the immortal buff hitted, Protoss players had figured out how to hold a 1-1-1. Do you know what the secret was, that they so long were looking for? It was MAKE MORE UNITS AND DON'T FUCK UP YOUR MICRO! Anyone who thinks, the Immortal buff was the reason for 1-1-1 becoming less effective, just doesn't understand the game. The buff just made the hold so easy that protoss these days can even fuck up his positioning and micro totally and still hold. But yeah, Terran players are just way more stupid than Zerg and Protoss and don't know anything about the game. I mean most Zerg players took over 1,5 years to figure out that upgrades are really good while most protoss players kept losing for more than 4months to the same allin over and over again, before they realized that cutting probes and massing up units while stopping upgrades and tech actually helps holding an all-in! So yeah, we are just incompetent in developing new strats. Terran players lack skill and brain and therefor they all deserve to be relegated down to bronze league! good that we know that terran is the hardest race to play, so you know what, all the terran guys you meet in ladder (probably ur not even mastersleage anyway) they all have more skill and more brain then you....just keep that in mind, and don t start to lie and say it isn t true, because it is! and now fuck you User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On June 23 2012 21:09 uzushould wrote: good that we know that terran is the hardest race to play, so you know what, all the terran guys you meet in ladder (probably ur not even mastersleage anyway) they all have more skill and more brain then you....just keep that in mind, and don t start to lie and say it isn t true, because it is! and now fuck you Sarcasm and the Internet^^ | ||
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Zoesan
Switzerland141 Posts
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redruMBunny
74 Posts
So of *course* every PrO will say queen buff is OP/Imba regardless of whether it actually is or not, regardless of whether they personally actually believe it or not. -- ZvT statistics aren't conclusive. There's a swing in ZvT win ratio, that's only to be expected as Terrans need time to adjust. But who's to say it will take only a month, or a week? It isn't a question of a simple Terran hard counter to 6 queens; it's a question of Terrans adjusting their scouting, build, and various timings to incorporate the new Zerg capabilities. I know to some players that sort of holistic thinking is just natural and I'm stating the obvious. But from reading some comments, it looks to me like some players have the idea that queens are so incredibly imba that there is no counter, mass queens for GG, which is simplifying things too much. (But maybe mass queens really does = GG?) -- My personal opinion is that queen buff is proper and necessary. I don't think I need to get Into the various reasons - there are tons of arguments to support my view, and tons of arguments to counter my view, and I don't think either Side is 100% valid or invalid. A lot of players that have posted have concluded that it's OP, I think a lot of pros sincerely believe it's OP, and of course they have their reasons for doing so. -- As far as personal attacks go - saying "terran is easy to play" (when said to insult someone or a group of other players, which is how I've almost always seen it used) or "you're not even Master league" - that sort of thing is entirely besides the point, so please just don't do it. -- and now fuck you Dinner first? | ||
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Appendix
Sweden979 Posts
To my understanding, one of the most basic principles of an RTS is the tension between economy, tech and army and about going for an advantage in one and through skill and strategy extend that advantage into the other ones. Buffing the Queen feels a bit iffy because it reduces that tension between economy and army to a too negligible level. For a race such as zerg where that specific relationship is a defining feature due to the shared resource larvae, it feels like there are better options to buff if you think zerg is too susceptible to early game harass. | ||
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Holophonist
United States297 Posts
On June 23 2012 17:20 DonKey_ wrote: Does this mean you are one of the "Terran was OP now Zerg needs to be OP" people or do you actualy want balance? Because if it is the latter why even mention graphs that start from 2 years ago. Well if you look at the post I was quoting, I was merely justifying why terran has been nerfed the most. And yes, I want balance, but I don't want people shrieking imbalance after a month or 2 of losing, when they were the ones that were winning everything before. It's not about vengeance, it's pointing out that things will eventually be sorted out, you just can't patch something the instant you think it's imbalanced. This is how managing touchy situations works. You can never get it right the first time, it's like a pendulum that swings back and forth in either direction until it comes to a stop in the middle. And whether you like it or not, the longer you wait in between patches, the more accurate those patches will be! | ||
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Holophonist
United States297 Posts
On June 23 2012 16:36 MrCon wrote: I don't even know what Holophonist and other are trying to argue in the thread. Terran deserves that because they were op one year ago ? What is the point of quoting the most excessive and blatantly wrong posts in this thread and come to argue with them, don't you think that everyone, terrans included, are seeing that those posts are wrong ? Why do you guys don't argue why other blatantly wrong posts like this one ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15194701 (and why the guy isn't banned yet is another good question :D) Well yeah I'm sure you don't know what we're trying to argue because you're apparently not reading anything. This is like... retardedly simple to grasp: They felt early game zvt lead to too many uninteresting games due to terran all-ins. In order to mitigate that, they buffed the queen to help deal with early aggression. You say they went too far. I say MAYBE they did but we simply do NOT know yet. A month or so of data is definitely not enough. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
On June 23 2012 23:42 Holophonist wrote: Well yeah I'm sure you don't know what we're trying to argue because you're apparently not reading anything. This is like... retardedly simple to grasp: They felt early game zvt lead to too many uninteresting games due to terran all-ins. In order to mitigate that, they buffed the queen to help deal with early aggression. You say they went too far. I say MAYBE they did but we simply do NOT know yet. A month or so of data is definitely not enough. No, we know. Now Terran has no all ins, while Zerg can simply do the easiest all in in the game (roachbane, or lingbane). | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On June 23 2012 23:52 Sroobz wrote: No, we know. Now Terran has no all ins, while Zerg can simply do the easiest all in in the game (roachbane, or lingbane). 2 base marine scv all in, or maybe even 1 base delayed marine scv all in (assuming you can trick the zerg into thinking you expo'd, a difficult task) is actually really strong vs queen heavy styles if they don't get gas for ages. Slow ling and queen and drones are not great vs like 25 marines it turns out. This is not necessarily something to be proud of though. | ||
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CajunMan
United States823 Posts
On June 23 2012 08:53 Dodgin wrote: Any changes to Terran have the potential to upset TvP balance, the best solution would be to simply revert the Queen change and keep the overlord change instead of trying to mess with that. And personally I didn't find hellion " contains " boring to spectate. It doesn't matter how boring you think it is hellion contains delay zerg 3rds for far too long putting them on the back foot forever. Even after the patch it is still viable you just need a few more hellions especially if you go banshee with it you can go fast third with like 10 hellions and banshee and the zerg can't move out till they have either 4+ infestors or spire tech. It is really gay. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
On June 24 2012 00:08 iaguz wrote: 2 base marine scv all in, or maybe even 1 base delayed marine scv all in (assuming you can trick the zerg into thinking you expo'd, a difficult task) is actually really strong vs queen heavy styles if they don't get gas for ages. Slow ling and queen and drones are not great vs like 25 marines it turns out. This is not necessarily something to be proud of though. Iaguz, this isn't RA3, we don't want to turn Terran into Soviet and start 1 basing again :D Seriously though...what if the zerg makes any roaches vs that 2 base marine scv all in :/ | ||
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CrY.
Japan97 Posts
Edit: @ cajun | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On June 24 2012 00:11 Sroobz wrote: Iaguz, this isn't RA3, we don't want to turn Terran into Soviet and start 1 basing again :D Seriously though...what if the zerg makes any roaches vs that 2 base marine scv all in :/ Conscript training finished... | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
On June 24 2012 00:09 CajunMan wrote: It doesn't matter how boring you think it is hellion contains delay zerg 3rds for far too long putting them on the back foot forever. Even after the patch it is still viable you just need a few more hellions especially if you go banshee with it you can go fast third with like 10 hellions and banshee and the zerg can't move out till they have either 4+ infestors or spire tech. It is really gay. You really don't watch much sc2 do you? | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 24 2012 00:09 CajunMan wrote: It doesn't matter how boring you think it is hellion contains delay zerg 3rds for far too long putting them on the back foot forever. Even after the patch it is still viable you just need a few more hellions especially if you go banshee with it you can go fast third with like 10 hellions and banshee and the zerg can't move out till they have either 4+ infestors or spire tech. It is really gay. How were Zergs on the back foot yet still winning at least 50% of the time? | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On June 23 2012 21:04 iaguz wrote: I'm pretty sure a lot of Terrans still did 1/1/1 style builds post immortal buff and some of them even had the gall to win with it on occasion, the bastards. PuMa comes to mind, as does MVP vs Parting on Ohana last gsl, and heart vs Huk multiple games an MLG or two ago. Not a lot of examples, just the first three that come to mind. I do know that recently the build has fallen out of favour almost entirely though. Which is sad but oh well. I think the problem with dealing with 1/1/1 builds back in the day for protoss is that it was a bit too... complicated. AS in there were far more variations of 1/1/1 and the counters to them weren't very general, so against some variations a certain defence was strong and against others it was shit and you kinda had to guess a bit which was coming. I like to think the immortal buff sort of generalised the Protoss defence of 1/1/1 and that's a good thing. There's a limit to how specific a defence should havee to be to defeat a timing. The other reason was the map pool. I don't think I've ever seen a 1/1/1 fail on close air Metalopolis, and I'm relatively certain it'd still have an insane winrate if Metal was suddenly reintroduced into competitive play. Ditto for Crossfire, Dual Sight, XNC, Bel'shir Beach, and so forth. Out of the current competitive maps, Ohana and Antiga are the best for 1/1/1, and it still succeeds more often than not on those. Not that the mad Terran you quoted will appreciate any of this. The sweet, sweet rage of someone who couldn't beat Protoss on the ladder even in the darkest 1/1/1 days.  | ||
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