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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
You'd have a reliable way of denying a third if the zerg overdroned, but it wouldn't be as stupid as it was before because the Zerg would have opportunities to scout and defend a little more cost effectively with creep spread. Instead of creep spread being too powerful make it a necessity to survive. This way we're increasing the mechanical skill required at the highest level and not going back to the shitty hellion contains that make for dull spectating. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
On June 23 2012 08:49 Ziggitz wrote: Why don't we buff Terran early game pressure instead of reverting back to the shitty early meta game we had before? For instance,since Zergs can always spread creep they can have enough plus slow banelings to hold off the bio stim timings that were overpowered before and supplement defense with queens. So if Terrans can't adapt to this change why not revert the stim research time nerf? You'd have a reliable way of denying a third if the zerg overdroned, but it wouldn't be as stupid as it was before because the Zerg would have opportunities to scout and defend a little more cost effectively with creep spread. Instead of creep spread being too powerful make it a necessity to survive. This way we're increasing the mechanical skill required at the highest level and not going back to the shitty hellion contains that make for dull spectating. Or just remove the queen change and keep the overlord change...voila! | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On June 23 2012 08:49 Ziggitz wrote: Why don't we buff Terran early game pressure instead of reverting back to the shitty early meta game we had before? For instance,since Zergs can always spread creep they can have enough plus slow banelings to hold off the bio stim timings that were overpowered before and supplement defense with queens. So if Terrans can't adapt to this change why not revert the stim research time nerf? You'd have a reliable way of denying a third if the zerg overdroned, but it wouldn't be as stupid as it was before because the Zerg would have opportunities to scout and defend a little more cost effectively with creep spread. Instead of creep spread being too powerful make it a necessity to survive. This way we're increasing the mechanical skill required at the highest level and not going back to the shitty hellion contains that make for dull spectating. Any changes to Terran have the potential to upset TvP balance, the best solution would be to simply revert the Queen change and keep the overlord change instead of trying to mess with that. And personally I didn't find hellion " contains " boring to spectate. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On June 23 2012 06:44 Assirra wrote: He said he was confident and it showed before the patch, how dare he! Really people, it seems terran seem to have issues since the patch but please don't start the "yea but he implied" game cause then you only see what you want to see. I implied nothing, it's you who are doing that now. You make it sounds like he just answered a basic "I'm confident" answer, when the question was balance related. I never said he should not have answered like he did. Anyway, for less ambiguous statements, the group selection ceremony is pretty good, the talk is translated here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15193850 A small sample : ▼ The race you are going to pick? Symbol: I didn't think I would get picked this early. But it's nice to know that I get the chance to pick someone. Of course I will be picking a terran. PS ! _PulSe_ , great post, excellent summary, good job good sir. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
Things do not look to be getting better for terran, in fact I would venture to say that they are getting worse day by day. Take for example the recent SlayerS-EG vs MVP GSTL match; Slayers the team that used to be known for their terran sent out 3 protoss and 2 zerg. In fact in the entire series the only terran to play was Sc for MVP. As a spectator I reaaaaly do not want to see 2 race play. | ||
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Reaps
United Kingdom1280 Posts
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Crisco
1170 Posts
On June 23 2012 09:12 Reaps wrote: People really are over reacting to this. Yeah it is far too early to tell. It takes quite a bit of experimentation to come up with something that can snap the balance back into place | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On June 23 2012 09:23 Crisco wrote: Yeah it is far too early to tell. It takes quite a bit of experimentation to come up with something that can snap the balance back into place I'd agree with this for most of the patches, but this one changed the matchup too deeply. Basically there can be 2 solutions : 1/ Terran plays ultra greedy to keep up with zerg economy. Unrealistic on paper, and coinflippy in practice. Ultra greedy builds just die to anything zerg can throw at terran from 2 or even 3 bases. In fact it's not even cloinflippy, it's suicidal as zerg can scout it easier than before and kill the terran without even altering his build order. 2/ Terran find a way to pressure the zerg and force him to deviate from drones and hatcheries without commiting. And this is the current terran dilemma. How ? Because of the creep, terran can't use bio without commiting himself before having medivac. That's because he has to be able to lift his army if the zerg has too much units (or he'll die to any counter attack). So that has to be a post medivac timing. Problem is post medivacs timings are late enough that pressuring the zerg has no effect anymore. The pressure has to happen when the zerg wants to saturate. If the pressure is too late, 3 hatches worth of larvas inject will be able to defend virtually anything terran could produce in the past 5-7 minutes. So it's a very thin line and it is very possible that no one ever found a timing, simply because no such timing exist anymore. | ||
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Torrnado
United States36 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
MLG Anaheim: TvZ: 58-84 (40.8%) ZvP: 83-67 (55.3%) PvT: 59-60 (49.6%) Dreamhack Summer: TvZ: 25-48 (34.2%) ZvP: 58-69 (45.7%) PvT: 34-29 (54%) The TSL4 qualifiers only seem to count stats from the ro32 onward so it's not totally accurate. Also, while not a premier tournament the GESL ( which happened the same weekend as Dreamhack, and had many good players ) has the worst win % of them all. TvZ: 9-21 (30%) ZvP: 16-21 (43.2%) PvT: 19-26 (42.2%) MVPDream seemed to be carrying the Terrans at the tournament having 5 of the 9 TvZ wins. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
DRG: Before the patch, Zerg was pretty durable. But now that Blizzard went this far and patched things for us I've been able to practice so calmly that I rarely ever lose. ▼ If there is a race that you really love to play against? DRG: Of course it is Terran. ▼ Is it because Terrans have no answer for Zerg players these days? DRG: I don't think a simple solution is going to appear any time soon. ▼ How about asking MMA for advice on taking down DRG? Ryung: MMA even loses to Zerg players on our team. Haha =) In fact if we analyse the group ceremony, everyone picked a terran or a foreigner (except Squirtle). Even terrans are picking terrans (well, obviously) xD | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
On June 23 2012 09:28 SupLilSon wrote: I can't help but laugh at all the people claiming overreaction and knee jerk reactions. It's been a month and there have been several high profile tournaments since the buff and the effect is evident. I mean hell, Thors get nerfed after a single game, no one cries knee jerk reaction. Ghosts get nerfed after a single game, no one cries knee jerk reaction. Protoss and Zerg players literally don't even know what it feels like to get hit by a nerf, let alone 70 of them. I feel your pain man, i mean all past GSL season's where you guys were so blantly suffering from the imbalances in this game, forced to play all those TvT. Some terrans barely had 70% win ratio against Zerg's there due to obvious lack of practice, abomination i say this game. And now whole one month where things changed and 4 hellions can't force zerg to get Roach Warren, spine and give map control at same time not to mention that one run by cant roast 10 drones. Where is this game going. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:08 Narw wrote: I feel your pain man, i mean all past GSL season's where you guys were so blantly suffering from the imbalances in this game, forced to play all those TvT. Some terrans barely had 70% win ratio against Zerg's there due to obvious lack of practice, abomination i say this game. And now whole one month where things changed and 4 hellions can't force zerg to get Roach Warren, spine and give map control at same time not to mention that one run by cant roast 10 drones. Where is this game going. Yeah because we should swing the game the other direction where Z can take free 4 bases with 80 drones and can't be pressured. At least Protoss has a borderline imbalanced spell (forcefield) that allows them to take a 3rd while being only somewhat behind or actually attack and kill the Z. Terran doesn't even have that. They have no spacial control. At all. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:08 Narw wrote: I feel your pain man, i mean all past GSL season's where you guys were so blantly suffering from the imbalances in this game, forced to play all those TvT. Some terrans barely had 70% win ratio against Zerg's there due to obvious lack of practice, abomination i say this game. And now whole one month where things changed and 4 hellions can't force zerg to get Roach Warren, spine and give map control at same time not to mention that one run by cant roast 10 drones. Where is this game going. As a random player, I can tell you with a straight face that despite GSL winrates, Terran has been the most difficult race for a very long time now. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:08 Narw wrote: I feel your pain man, i mean all past GSL season's where you guys were so blantly suffering from the imbalances in this game, forced to play all those TvT. Some terrans barely had 70% win ratio against Zerg's there due to obvious lack of practice, abomination i say this game. And now whole one month where things changed and 4 hellions can't force zerg to get Roach Warren, spine and give map control at same time not to mention that one run by cant roast 10 drones. Where is this game going. I take it you've never heard of DongRaeGu LOLOLOL Jesus CHRIST | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:15 Sroobz wrote: I take it you've never heard of DongRaeGu LOLOLOL Jesus CHRIST People like him have probably never even watched GSL. It's pretty evident by their lack of knowledge and ability to think outside pure win %s | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On June 23 2012 09:28 SupLilSon wrote: I can't help but laugh at all the people claiming overreaction and knee jerk reactions. It's been a month and there have been several high profile tournaments since the buff and the effect is evident. I mean hell, Thors get nerfed after a single game, no one cries knee jerk reaction. Ghosts get nerfed after a single game, no one cries knee jerk reaction. Protoss and Zerg players literally don't even know what it feels like to get hit by a nerf, let alone 70 of them. 2/10 Might want to edit that part out if you want to claim to be a random player. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:18 RavenLoud wrote: 2/10 Might want to edit that part out if you want to claim to be a random player. Why? It's true. You'd have to be the blindest, most biased person in the world to try and argue that Terran hasn't received a lopsided amount of nerfs. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On June 23 2012 08:49 Ziggitz wrote: Why don't we buff Terran early game pressure instead of reverting back to the shitty early meta game we had before? For instance,since Zergs can always spread creep they can have enough plus slow banelings to hold off the bio stim timings that were overpowered before and supplement defense with queens. So if Terrans can't adapt to this change why not revert the stim research time nerf? You'd have a reliable way of denying a third if the zerg overdroned, but it wouldn't be as stupid as it was before because the Zerg would have opportunities to scout and defend a little more cost effectively with creep spread. Instead of creep spread being too powerful make it a necessity to survive. This way we're increasing the mechanical skill required at the highest level and not going back to the shitty hellion contains that make for dull spectating. That will have unseen potential effect to TvP that you just don't want to. I think a better way is to work on the creepspread speed. Right now it's so easy to put down creep tumor, and there're so many in the map, and the creep spread is too fast. Right now, a creep tumor can fill a 10-unit radius area in creep in ~86second, 2 creep tumor fill it in 43sec, 3 tumor in 29sec, and 4 creep tumors in the same area will fill 10-unit radius area in creep in ~22sec and so on, that is less than the time to build a marine. WIth 4,5 creep tumor, the creep can spread faster than a queen walking offcreep. To let some people feel the scale of it, let's take Antiga Shipyard as an example. Antiga Shipyard is a 136x136 map, the distance between 2 cross-spawn bases is ~115 units by air, and between 2 cross-spawned natural by walk is ~150 units. So ideally, you can spread creep from natural to natural in 5 minutes. From another point of view, a scan will cost 50 energy and orbital can regenerate in 89 second. a scan radius is only 13, but in 80second, creep tumor can generate a great amount of creep (40 unit radius) that one or two scans won't simply be enough. Of course there're all kind of events that will happen in a match, but just imagine the grand scale of it. The buff was just one month old and we already how top Zerg demonstrate their creepspread. Yes, Terran can try to adapt to it, like mass mass orbital or super early raven and such, but we need to remember that while Terran players increase their skills to deal with creep, Zerg players will also increase their skills to spread creep, DRG's creep spread will be the norm. It's so much easier to spread creep and there're such huge benefit from it to be ignored. | ||
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