EPTOn June 23 2012 10:18 RavenLoud wrote:
2/10
Might want to edit that part out if you want to claim to be a random player.
2/10
Might want to edit that part out if you want to claim to be a random player.
He's just exaggerating to make a point.
1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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TitleRug
United States651 Posts
He's just exaggerating to make a point. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:08 Narw wrote: I feel your pain man, i mean all past GSL season's where you guys were so blantly suffering from the imbalances in this game, forced to play all those TvT. Some terrans barely had 70% win ratio against Zerg's there due to obvious lack of practice, abomination i say this game. And now whole one month where things changed and 4 hellions can't force zerg to get Roach Warren, spine and give map control at same time not to mention that one run by cant roast 10 drones. Where is this game going. Just because Terran was OP before, so we need Zerg to be OP now to even it out? I thought we want a balance game right now, not a swinging trend like that? What's the point of all the nerf and buff then? If Terran is OP for one year, why not buff Queen to have 10 range and ovie speed to 4.25 so that Zerg can dominate in one year and then nerf it back? | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:15 SupLilSon wrote: As a random player, I can tell you with a straight face that despite GSL winrates, Terran has been the most difficult race for a very long time now. Difficulty is a bit complex in RTS, but past the 10 minutes, the micro/multi tasking requirement is in the least a lot higher than for the other 2 races People keep looking at past nerfs and imagining the units in current meta/skill level, which is just stupid tbh. In the beta, most the things that got nerfed were actually decently balanced, because of different maps aswell as a lot lower skill level, which results in worse results for terrans due to greater importance of micro/multi tasking than the other 2 races. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
He's also wrong. I guess his trolling succeeded after all since it got me to make a response. | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:34 canikizu wrote: Just because Terran was OP before, so we need Zerg to be OP now to even it out? I thought we want a balance game right now, not a swinging trend like that? What's the point of all the nerf and buff then? If Terran is OP for one year, why not buff Queen to have 10 range and ovie speed to 4.25 so that Zerg can dominate in one year and then nerf it back? Change is one month old, month full of tournaments. month where players propably didnt even try too much of this new playstyle past queen range buff. One month and you guys act like this is end of the world (of Starcraft). Same as there was this whine fest like what, 2 months ago about TvP. Well, statisticly there is nothing wrong with TvP. So maybe instead of acting like lil sissies go play the game and change your playstyle. Also i can't stop having fun seeing all those Terran interviews, well, why when Zerg was so messed there weren't Terrans from GSL pointing out, screaming how bad their Zerg opponents had it? Oh yeah, they were busy collecting cash couse they were obviously more skilled. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:47 RavenLoud wrote: He's also wrong. I guess his trolling succeeded after all since it got me to make a response. How am I wrong? Do you want to expound a little bit on what you post? Or are you going to continue to just post meaningless one liners? Obviously 70 was an exaggerated number, I'm not going to go through the change logs and count every single change. But, anyone who has been playing since the start knows that Terran has received by far the most nerfs of the 3 races. | ||
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Holophonist
United States297 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:58 SupLilSon wrote: How am I wrong? Do you want to expound a little bit on what you post? Or are you going to continue to just post meaningless one liners? Obviously 70 was an exaggerated number, I'm not going to go through the change logs and count every single change. But, anyone who has been playing since the start knows that Terran has received by far the most nerfs of the 3 races. Because they historically have consistently done better than the other 2 races. Why wouldn't they get the most nerfs? I mean, look at this for goodness sake: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/w8nXZ.png) It's a bit old, I just did a quick search to illustrate my point. I mean holy tits look at the zvt and even pvt rates. At its worst, it was worse than terran is currently fairing against zerg. So, again, why wouldn't they get the most nerfs? | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:58 SupLilSon wrote: How am I wrong? Do you want to expound a little bit on what you post? Or are you going to continue to just post meaningless one liners? Obviously 70 was an exaggerated number, I'm not going to go through the change logs and count every single change. But, anyone who has been playing since the start knows that Terran has received by far the most nerfs of the 3 races. Well someone who says that Z or P has *literally* never knew what it feels like to receive a nerf just doesn't deserve my time. Sorry. That's goes beyond selective memory. You can't deny that T was massively broken at release either when you compare exact numbers of nerfs. Not to mention that Z and P got some pretty heavy handed nerfs during beta. User was warned for this post | ||
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Savant
United States379 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On June 23 2012 12:00 Savant wrote: Terran units are the most flexible and microable. Zerg and Protoss units are mostly 1a units supported by casters. Exceptional Terrans found creative ways to maximize Terran unit effectiveness to pull out wins consistently despite constant nerfing, just because Terran units (in my opinion) are better designed. Because of this, Blizzard has to nerf T to oblivion to even out winrates at the top levels, but that makes it unplayable at lower skill levels. This time, they may have crossed the line and just made T unplayable period. I agree here. Terran units are the least hard-counterable if the Terran micro's well. However this does not decrease the effectiveness of Terran in the lower levels. It's perfectly possible to go something like Thor/Hellion in TvZ and mass Thor in TvP just because it's easier to micro, regardless of the actual viability of those compositions. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Why do you guys don't argue why other blatantly wrong posts like this one ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15194701 (and why the guy isn't banned yet is another good question :D) | ||
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:52 Narw wrote: Change is one month old, month full of tournaments. month where players propably didnt even try too much of this new playstyle past queen range buff. One month and you guys act like this is end of the world (of Starcraft). Same as there was this whine fest like what, 2 months ago about TvP. Well, statisticly there is nothing wrong with TvP. So maybe instead of acting like lil sissies go play the game and change your playstyle. Also i can't stop having fun seeing all those Terran interviews, well, why when Zerg was so messed there weren't Terrans from GSL pointing out, screaming how bad their Zerg opponents had it? Oh yeah, they were busy collecting cash couse they were obviously more skilled. Pretty much this!But whats gona happen is ppl gona continue to wine about the queen's until some pro comes up with a new buildstile,so that they can copy it.Then there will be pice once more in the Koprulu sector.Let's face it 90% (or more) of ppl just copy build's.They're not capable (or just to lazy) to come up with something creative by them self.So when things are changed a little bit and that surten opening is not that great anymore then the whining starts.Cause what else can be done there right???It's much easier to sit back whine and wait for the change by others then to actually make an effort and try to change things yourself. | ||
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xarcatos
Germany41 Posts
I love all the blabbering of Zergs and Tosses in this thread claiming to "just adapt and develop" new builds, while they cant give anything specific, because there is no SIMPLE "i can just abuse the zerg getting 6 queens" - build. | ||
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SnowFox2ne1
United States52 Posts
[/QUOTE] Pretty much this!But whats gona happen is ppl gona continue to wine about the queen's until some pro comes up with a new buildstile,so that they can copy it.Then there will be pice once more in the Koprulu sector.Let's face it 90% (or more) of ppl just copy build's.They're not capable (or just to lazy) to come up with something creative by them self.So when things are changed a little bit and that surten opening is not that great anymore then the whining starts.Cause what else can be done there right???It's much easier to sit back whine and wait for the change by others then to actually make an effort and try to change things yourself. [/QUOTE] I didn't know coming up with a Code S level refined build order was so easy. You know what isn't creative? 6 queens into 80 drones, then massing an A-move ball. Obviously this isn't 100% accurate, but for a lot of the game it kind of is. It has been a month; why in the hell isn't it enough time? 1/1/1 was OP and everyone even terran said so. When blue flame was nerfed, there was some rumble from the terran but it went over a lot smoother than a lot of people thought. Coming into the ghost nerf there were a lot of people complaining because that was our answer to late game TvZ; now we really don't have much except needing simply more stuff and better micro than the zerg. This buff was uneeded and stupid; I have tons of protoss, zerg, and terran friends in high masters all saying the same thing. I don't know why people cling to their stupidity in believing a game is balanced after everyone and their dog is saying the same thing. If you are going to buff queens, give us something. Anything. We can't break a zerg early, looking at code S terran, they have tried tons of styles; and the hellion one is the one that is the best of the worst. people bitching about the match-up becoming predictable and stale such as Artosis; really need to take a look at every other match-up. 90% of the time, it is the same shit, because it works. Why not buff stalkers insanely so ever terran has to open marauders or die? Because you don't need to fuck with something that is working. This buff was plain stupid and reckless in TvZ balance. Stop ignoring the problem with waiting to see if shit gets fixed from some other gimicky strats and give us back a straight up macro game. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On June 23 2012 11:08 Holophonist wrote: Because they historically have consistently done better than the other 2 races. Why wouldn't they get the most nerfs? I mean, look at this for goodness sake: It's a bit old, I just did a quick search to illustrate my point. I mean holy tits look at the zvt and even pvt rates. At its worst, it was worse than terran is currently fairing against zerg. So, again, why wouldn't they get the most nerfs? Does this mean you are one of the "Terran was OP now Zerg needs to be OP" people or do you actualy want balance? Because if it is the latter why even mention graphs that start from 2 years ago. | ||
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
On June 23 2012 17:05 xarcatos wrote: Such as the majority of Zerg and Protoss players who all do nothing else but develop own builds, because they aren't as lazy as Terrans. Valid Point. Hm...maybe not. I love all the blabbering of Zergs and Tosses in this thread claiming to "just adapt and develop" new builds, while they cant give anything specific, because there is no SIMPLE "i can just abuse the zerg getting 6 queens" - build. I was talking about players in general including zerg and toss players. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On June 23 2012 17:20 DonKey_ wrote: Does this mean you are one of the "Terran was OP now Zerg needs to be OP" people or do you actualy want balance? Because if it is the latter why even mention graphs that start from 2 years ago. I thought kinda the same thing you did, but his graph isn't about making that argument. He was arguing that statistically Terran has spent a long time being the strongest performing race, therefore justifying most of the nerfs that have been dealt to it. And I think that's a fairly decent argument. The only thing I don't like about it is that the graph deals in small increments so it looks like matchups are completly fucking ridiculous when they are only kinda ridiculous. But it's old news. | ||
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Krejven
Sweden105 Posts
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On June 23 2012 16:57 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Pretty much this!But whats gona happen is ppl gona continue to wine about the queen's until some pro comes up with a new buildstile,so that they can copy it.Then there will be pice once more in the Koprulu sector.Let's face it 90% (or more) of ppl just copy build's.They're not capable (or just to lazy) to come up with something creative by them self.So when things are changed a little bit and that surten opening is not that great anymore then the whining starts.Cause what else can be done there right???It's much easier to sit back whine and wait for the change by others then to actually make an effort and try to change things yourself. There is only a limited amount of units in the game. To punish a zerg that goes fast 3rd you need to hit before it is saturated, that means before 8 min. The simple fact is that queens are now a very good fighting unit, especially with transfuse. They have the dps of a roach with more hp, more range, transfuse and anti air. To punish the zerg for his greedy 3rd you now need a bigger army while you still have to have a bigger eco back at home at the same time. There is just no such build. I still wait for the first zerg to suggest "battle cruiser harass" ^^. The build terrans have to find to balance the match up is a build that was imbalanced up until the current patch but was never found. That sounds quite stupid to be honest. In TvZ zerg gets ahead when he makes exactly the right amount of units and drones at the right time in the first 10 minutes. The faster overlords make this easier, and i´m fine with that. The cost effective "catch it all" queen just allows zerg to build a few more drones with optimal play, while also getting a earlier 3rd. That spells disaster with the exponential zerg macro. Its like letting zerg start with 1 or 2 extra drones. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On June 23 2012 10:52 Narw wrote: Change is one month old, month full of tournaments. month where players propably didnt even try too much of this new playstyle past queen range buff. One month and you guys act like this is end of the world (of Starcraft). Same as there was this whine fest like what, 2 months ago about TvP. Well, statisticly there is nothing wrong with TvP. So maybe instead of acting like lil sissies go play the game and change your playstyle. Also i can't stop having fun seeing all those Terran interviews, well, why when Zerg was so messed there weren't Terrans from GSL pointing out, screaming how bad their Zerg opponents had it? Oh yeah, they were busy collecting cash couse they were obviously more skilled. Because zergs never struggled with the race itself past the first year of the game. They've always just been worse as players. People whined about TvP because it's a shit matchup to play and spectate because of how lopsided it is at different stages of the game. Not because of imbalance. The fact that you don't understand these two ideas says much about you. When NA zergs feel like playing against Stephano (Ryung), that's when you know you've fucked up a patch, because newsflash, TvZ was balanced pre-patch and Blizzard super buffed every single zerg and made them two ladder ranks more skilled against equal MMR terrans for no apparent reason. Also, this "people will figure it out" attitude is bull. There's still no answer to lategame TvZ after snipe was nerfed, and that's been what? Three months or longer now? On June 23 2012 12:00 Savant wrote: Terran units are the most flexible and microable. Zerg and Protoss units are mostly 1a units supported by casters. Exceptional Terrans found creative ways to maximize Terran unit effectiveness to pull out wins consistently despite constant nerfing, just because Terran units (in my opinion) are better designed. Because of this, Blizzard has to nerf T to oblivion to even out winrates at the top levels, but that makes it unplayable at lower skill levels. This time, they may have crossed the line and just made T unplayable period. Yup. Because Z/P have lower micro potential than terran, Blizzard needs to make sure that the Z/P micro potential at their best is always keeping up with terran players ever improving terran play. They do this by either unlocking Z/P micro potential so better pros can better use the race, or hard buff the stats (or nerf terran stats) so they're mathematically even again, with no regard to improving player skill level. The end result of this will be statistically balanced win rates, but with zer/protoss players who will never develop their skill levels past the lower skill cap of Z/P, while the lower leagues terrans just straight up die, up until the point where they end up breaking highlevel TvX as well of course, i.e now. Every time the terran GSL players develops something new it gets nerfed because Z/P aren't designed to deal with anything because of their bad design. | ||
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