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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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United States4013 Posts
On June 23 2012 04:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:30 stupidhydro wrote:On June 23 2012 04:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Takes way more than a month to adapt to a new patch. Especially at the highest level. 3 months, then we can talk. I don't really get why people think this is true. Pro terrans all around the world are practicing 8+ hours a day and I honestly don't think that they're truly overlooking something after having this patch out for over a month. If this was a late game problem like with the ghost nerf, then I think you might be right since very few games make it that far and it takes far longer to explore those areas but if we're just talking straight up build orders and terrans can't find any way to deal damage or stay even economically without some sort of extremely vulnerable and greedy play, then I don't think it takes 3 months to figure that out. It seems like no matter the OPENER, the zerg can go straight up 4-6 queens, 3 bases with a ton of drones, and terrans can't punish it or keep up unless they also go extremely fast, straight 3 orbitals... and then they die to roaches and/or banes. TL;DR: Terrans can't even find an OPENING BUILD ORDER that can punish or keep up with the zerg and there's only so many options to explore with that. BW has been in a constant state of evolution, bringing changes in metagame that make each race strong and weak for varying amounts of time. Fact is, the game is constantly evolving and this has been happening for years. The recent Terran struggles against Zerg are not unique. Anyone who has followed competitive RTS has seen this 100 times. I understand that younger players haven't seen that sort of thing. But 8 hours a day does not mean you totally figure out the game. Its still hugely evolving and HISTORY SHOWS that it takes more than a month to figure out a patch. Just look at how long BW was on a single patch and the masssssssssive shifts that occurred.
1) This is a terrible argument, the amount of tools that we have today versus the amount of tools we had back then makes a significant impact. Having the ability to see so much data on the fly has developed the metagame tremendously faster than BW. For example, just replays alone have changed the metagame dramatically. BW didn't have replays for quite sometime, not until a significant amount of time had passed since the BW pro scene began. Not to mention, tools to analyze replays did not come until more time had passed. We have all of those tools at our finger tips now adays. Also, people have more general meta knowledge, along with more refinement of what techniques to utilize in order to further progress the metagame at a rate that far surpasses the rate BW progressed at. Bad argument is bad.
2) The metagame has not changed at all for the past 8-10 months without direct intervention by Blizzard. BW's metagame changed on its own without direct intervention by Blizzard past 2001 on multiple accounts. Blizzard keeps interfering without allowing players simply figure shit out, and the more interfering they do, the more they fuck up the game. Every time Blizzard has interfered with SC2, they have only screwed shit up more often, and proceed to band aid it later on (it's not even a good fix half the time, the only notable one that I remember was the reduction of EMP radius). Those Helion openers that you see are not metgame changes either, Terran pro players have been doing that since the beta. It has only become slightly more refined where you can't insta kill a Z anymore, so Terran players use them to contain/slow down a Z's expansion rate. Now you can't even do that anymore.
3) Anyone that has followed competitive RTS also knows when something is completely broken. And this recent patch has completely broken a match-up that was stable, and more often times than not was determined by simply who was the better player in multiple respects, from macro, multi tasking, micro, etc. It was easily by far the most entertaining match-up in SC2, and Blizzard sent it down a blackhole with their idiotic decision to buff Queens for who knows why.
I'm really sick and tired of seeing "WAIT IT OUT PEOPLE WILL FIGURE THIS SHIT OUT." No, they won't. The metagame has reached a point where it's come close to completely maxed out. PvZ, TvZ, and TvP have all pretty much become nothing more than slightly more refined strategies that were created literally 10+ months ago. Protoss have been forge expanding forever, Terran have been doing Helion openings since the beta, and Z have been doing the same greedy style of play since who knows when. It's literally the same openers, the same build orders, the same unit compositions since forever. The only thing that has changed the metagame is Blizzard's intervention or when there are map changes.
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On June 23 2012 04:22 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:10 Mjolnir wrote:On June 23 2012 03:01 ragz_gt wrote:On June 23 2012 02:49 Mjolnir wrote:On June 23 2012 02:35 Horseballs wrote:On June 23 2012 02:27 Mjolnir wrote:
For the sake of the game you should give more time to players trying to adapt to these changes.
Far too often has the SC2 community flipped out and reacted to a strat to have something nerfed into oblivion before (or during) the point where players have learned ways to deal with it.
This sort of knee-jerk reaction is the reason Terran makes reapers once every 1000 games (that's one example).
The thing is, the queen buff was completely unwarranted. It wasn't overpowered before, the game was at a good place and most people where very happy. Why should we have to adapt to the game getting ruined for no reason? I won't pretend to understand the logic behind the decision made by the SC2 balancing team. God knows how much I've raged at the stupid shit they've done in the past - I could write a list of the changes that I feel are asinine and have made the game less enjoyable and more homogeneous. I will say that hellion openers really became the go-to strat in a TvZ. They were also really, really strong. If the opener worked, it was usually gg. Maybe they want Terran to switch it up a big, or make it so hellions aren't deciding the game outcome in the first 5 minutes even though it isn't a rush tactic. I don't know. All I know is that in the past, when people have flipped out over a tactic and it has been changed, the game has become less interesting because of it (like my reaper example). As it stands now, hellions are still useful, it's just easier to defend them and Zerg isn't forced to make spines and roaches to do so successfully. I say this as a Terran and Zerg player. I am seeing both sides of this match up. I don't believe queens are game-breaking and I feel that some of the recent Zerg tournament wins are due to exemplary play more than they are due to queens giving Zerg and advantage early. For instance, at the most recent MLG: + Show Spoiler +DRG vs. MKP - semi-finals
People are using this series as an example of how broken queens are - however this series was a good, close set of games. In the games MKP lost, there were constant army trades and it could have gone either way. MKP actually engaged in one battle when he was floating 2400! minerals. Most of his engagements (his initiation) he was floating over 1k in minerals. If he spent that, he won the game. DRG played very well, MKP screwed up.
I mention this series because everyone seems to use it as the glaring example of how OP queens are. It's not.
You realize that DRG vs MKP game in MLG, the first game MKP only lost because he could not land his 4th base since it was covered by creep 10 min in, right? Realized that there is no way he could compete DRG in a macro game, he went proxy Rax and got caught second game. So the queen buff is the direct reason why DRG won against MKP that series. EDIT: After his Ro32 win interview, MKP said so himself that after Stephano series, he believed he had no chance against DRG because DRG was stronger player than Stephano. He might actually be right. God forbid he scan. Or better yet, God forbid he not engage with 2000+ mineral in the bank. Yeeeeeeah, go check that one out. Watch the spending on that series. DRG keeps his minearls low as fuck and MKP is floating 1k on average. There's even one point where he is 2400k. That's the sort of macro that will get people ridiculed on this forum. So how is it that queens dictated the outcome of that series? Gonna assume you don't play Terran at a high level (or any race, for that matter). MKP did Scan when he tried to land his 4th, but since Creep takes around 193476901763 hours for Creep to recede it didn't matter anyway. Regardless, wasting Scans to deny 1 or 2 Tumors in the very early game isn't worth it, since with 6 Queens that barely dents the Creep Spread.
Did you watch the game? He took his 4th like really really late even when Artosis mentioned when MKP needed a 4th he hasn't even gotten it.MKP stayed on 3 base for too long and let DRG did whatever he want.MKP keep sending his forces to engage DRG army but got crushed by DRG muta/ling/bane.But MKP always has an army at home and he pushed out and
a bad engagement from DRG bought MKP into a close game.Eventually DRG got his ultra/bane/infestor and caught MKP army pushing out my creep and crushed it and end the game
Not clearing the creep on his 4th and him getting his 4th CC so late for such a long time is MKP own fault.
Plus, the macro for MKP was worse than usual.
Plus,Cloud Kingdom is a huge map. It was pretty impressive DRG spread his creep LITERALLY everywhere.
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On June 23 2012 04:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:30 stupidhydro wrote:On June 23 2012 04:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Takes way more than a month to adapt to a new patch. Especially at the highest level. 3 months, then we can talk. I don't really get why people think this is true. Pro terrans all around the world are practicing 8+ hours a day and I honestly don't think that they're truly overlooking something after having this patch out for over a month. If this was a late game problem like with the ghost nerf, then I think you might be right since very few games make it that far and it takes far longer to explore those areas but if we're just talking straight up build orders and terrans can't find any way to deal damage or stay even economically without some sort of extremely vulnerable and greedy play, then I don't think it takes 3 months to figure that out. It seems like no matter the OPENER, the zerg can go straight up 4-6 queens, 3 bases with a ton of drones, and terrans can't punish it or keep up unless they also go extremely fast, straight 3 orbitals... and then they die to roaches and/or banes. TL;DR: Terrans can't even find an OPENING BUILD ORDER that can punish or keep up with the zerg and there's only so many options to explore with that. BW has been in a constant state of evolution, bringing changes in metagame that make each race strong and weak for varying amounts of time. Fact is, the game is constantly evolving and this has been happening for years. The recent Terran struggles against Zerg are not unique. Anyone who has followed competitive RTS has seen this 100 times. I understand that younger players haven't seen that sort of thing. But 8 hours a day does not mean you totally figure out the game. Its still hugely evolving and HISTORY SHOWS that it takes more than a month to figure out a patch. Just look at how long BW was on a single patch and the masssssssssive shifts that occurred.
While I completely agree (I've been in the competitive fighting scene for a good amount of years), the issue is Blizzard is around this time, unlike in BW, and they're throwing in patches 'n updates left and right. Saying the metagame will work itself out seems farfetched to me.
What I'm basically saying is Blizzard is controlling the pace of the metagame.
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Being midmaster T, my TvZ winrate is currently higher than ever before (last 10 tvzs I've probably won like 9).
I've been playing 1rax FE into 3 rax with very quick reactors(massing marines heavily), a build MKP did in GSL season 1 or 2. Nowadays I have a nice timing before ling speed ~8min since zergs delay their tech so much and slow lings are shit even against unupgraded marineball. It just seems to play perfectly to my build. I put pressure, deny creep, back off(usually), and return with medivacs stim and soon after with +1 and shields. Expand, tech +2/+2 and siege tanks behind aggression. I know this build has probably no use in high level TvZ anymore, but I just wanted to shed some positive thinking to this balance shitstorm.
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One point I would like to note is that the people saying that the professional 'Terrans will adapt' are being quite unfair. The same argument applies to the professional Zergs as well. Then why condone the patch to buff queens by so much? TvZ was already a very balanced matchup with a lot of exciting plays.
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On June 23 2012 04:53 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:34 HeroMystic wrote:On June 23 2012 04:23 Mjolnir wrote:
Don't take it personally man, it's just a game.
Whenever people say this, they don't seem to understand that people base their entire lives around this game to have an income. It's not just the game, and I advise you should refrain from saying that it is. It's a good thing that almost nobody in this thread is pissed off for that reason. Come on, people here are raging because they lost the latest ladder match, not because so and so lost to so and so in a tournament and that means they make less money. I don't feel anyone can say with absolute certainty that this change to queens is overpowered and game-breaking. Take more time to sort it out, then complain. Right now, it all just smacks of knee-jerk reactions.
I don't play sc2 anymore. I am just a casual diamond and spectate way more than I play. From a spectator standpoint it is clearly obvious Zerg is dominating the scene and its becoming an issue of enjoyment for spectators. No one wants to watch ZvZ finals and no one wants to see top 8 or 4 zergs. They want to watch an even distribution of races... You could complain when terran was dominating in GSL that this was a major issue and it was. But watching GSTL and seeing zergs going all kills and teams not even trying to send out their terrans is silly.
Also TvZ was the most enjoying match to watch. This game has really changed the game dynamics of TvZ and made it a onesided slugfest where zergs just simply have much more stuff.
I also wanted to note BW is a completely different game where the game mechanics itself was impossible to master. You could simply make up for imbalances by just being the better player straight up. In Sc2 since everything regarding macro is so much easier, it is much harder to make up for ingame imbalances.
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mmm even if the queen change is strong, it allows to make maps that will favor the terran. So the patch can be undone quiet easily. Meanwhile lower levels aren't really affected that heavily it seems, as there Zergs can't go mass queens because they will get overrun. Atleast right now i have no problem against zerg in the master region, but i know this is due to other terrans struggling.
But if the TvZ stays with mass queens and it becomes standard, i belief we will see some changes to tumors. (most likely 50 energy) Or a on creep speed reduce, so they can't run away anymore.
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On June 23 2012 05:22 duckmaster wrote:
Being midmaster T, my TvZ winrate is currently higher than ever before (last 10 tvzs I've probably won like 9).
I've been playing 1rax FE into 3 rax with very quick reactors(massing marines heavily), a build MKP did in GSL season 1 or 2. Nowadays I have a nice timing before ling speed ~8min since zergs delay their tech so much and slow lings are shit even against unupgraded marineball. It just seems to play perfectly to my build. I put pressure, deny creep, back off(usually), and return with medivacs stim and soon after with +1 and shields. Expand, tech +2/+2 and siege tanks behind aggression. I know this build has probably no use in high level TvZ anymore, but I just wanted to shed some positive thinking to this balance shitstorm.
How's that roach baneling all in coming along?
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I'd like to see something buffing ravens to incentivize terrains into making the unit. Maybe a spell that can be cast which prevents debuffs and spell damage on a single unit, similar in vein to d-matrix. Then with two ravens you could prevent fungals from catching your ravens, allowing them to be effectively massed.
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On June 23 2012 05:45 RifleCow wrote:
I'd like to see something buffing ravens to incentivize terrains into making the unit. Maybe a spell that can be cast which prevents debuffs and spell damage on a single unit, similar in vein to d-matrix. Then with two ravens you could prevent fungals from catching your ravens, allowing them to be effectively massed.
I think ravens already have enough spells tbh.
a unit with 4 spells would be overkill (even if some are questionable).
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On June 23 2012 05:22 duckmaster wrote:
Being midmaster T, my TvZ winrate is currently higher than ever before (last 10 tvzs I've probably won like 9).
I've been playing 1rax FE into 3 rax with very quick reactors(massing marines heavily), a build MKP did in GSL season 1 or 2. Nowadays I have a nice timing before ling speed ~8min since zergs delay their tech so much and slow lings are shit even against unupgraded marineball. It just seems to play perfectly to my build. I put pressure, deny creep, back off(usually), and return with medivacs stim and soon after with +1 and shields. Expand, tech +2/+2 and siege tanks behind aggression. I know this build has probably no use in high level TvZ anymore, but I just wanted to shed some positive thinking to this balance shitstorm.
god where are ppl like you coming from fe 3rax into various timings and transition is still one of the main tvz builds yes u can do it and u can beat ppl with it. its good i like it but yea not the answer to tvz by itslef
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Something that disturbs me about this whole conversation is that people are stating zerg,terran and protoss in a way that does not make sense..It is not that "zerg" is dominating, it is the players that are playing zerg that are dominating..there is a difference. If people could stop being raging fanboys for a couple minutes and look at the people playing the race, these topics wouldn't pop up.
DRG wins mlg; does that mean zerg is overpowered due to the queen buff or is DRG just better?
Think about this while I go play league of legends.
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On June 23 2012 05:45 RifleCow wrote:
I'd like to see something buffing ravens to incentivize terrains into making the unit. Maybe a spell that can be cast which prevents debuffs and spell damage on a single unit, similar in vein to d-matrix. Then with two ravens you could prevent fungals from catching your ravens, allowing them to be effectively massed.
avilo often does mass raven in late TvZ and the trouble is you can kill 20 infestors but once they get a good fungal or two you've lost the game because you can't replace the army supply quick and well enough. He suggested extending the HSM range so a fungaled raven could at least attack. Didn't seem to be a bad idea.
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4713 Posts
On June 23 2012 05:39 FeyFey wrote:
mmm even if the queen change is strong, it allows to make maps that will favor the terran. So the patch can be undone quiet easily. Meanwhile lower levels aren't really affected that heavily it seems, as there Zergs can't go mass queens because they will get overrun. Atleast right now i have no problem against zerg in the master region, but i know this is due to other terrans struggling.
But if the TvZ stays with mass queens and it becomes standard, i belief we will see some changes to tumors. (most likely 50 energy) Or a on creep speed reduce, so they can't run away anymore.
I'm not sure approaching balance trough the maps is a viable option until we reach a state where we know balance is already near perfect on a certain set of maps.
I think a lot of nerfs that have been handed out over time are the result of the bad maps we had at the time. Like, if we where still playing on Steppes of War and similar maps of the time, then hell yeah I'd agree with a nerf to the bunker build time and the rax build time, however such a nerf on a map like say, Tal'Darim Altar, Daybreak, Whirlwind or Atlantis Spaceship don't make much sense.
That is only one isolated example that I'll use to prove my point, there have been many more out there.
I believe that the biggest mistake on the part of not only Blizzard, but the community as well, was to change two variables at the same time, nerf/buff a certain aspect of a race while also changing the maps. It might have just conspired to make certain races too good or two bad at certain points in time to the extent that more unnecessary nerfs/buffs where made.
Don't get me wrong, I like new maps and freshness just as much as the next person, but I'm just saying that in this particular case new maps might not be a good idea.
As far as the future is concerned, I think the best thing to do regarding balance, is to keep the map pool as stable as possible for about 1 year. When all non mirror match ups have nearly 50% win rate for that long a time without changes to the maps or the races then we will know balance has been achieved. Until then race favored maps at the same time that Blizzard is trying to also patch things is just a futile labor that will lead to both the community and Blizzard running around each other in circles and not achieving anything.
This is my main concern for HoTS. For the love of all that you hold dear in SC2, don't fucking change the map pool drastically while Blizzard is still balancing. Of course this requires some kind of communication between Blizzard and the community, but it is still very necessary.
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On June 23 2012 05:53 Sc2Null wrote:
Something that disturbs me about this whole conversation is that people are stating zerg,terran and protoss in a way that does not make sense..It is not that "zerg" is dominating, it is the players that are playing zerg that are dominating..there is a difference. If people could stop being raging fanboys for a couple minutes and look at the people playing the race, these topics wouldn't pop up.
DRG wins mlg; does that mean zerg is overpowered due to the queen buff or is DRG just better?
Think about this while I go play league of legends.
DRG winning mlg doesn't show that zerg is overpowered, but suddenly zergs in general doing significantly better and terrans in general doing significantly worse all lining up with the patch does. We're not looking at individual players or matches, but all of them together.
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On June 23 2012 05:57 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 05:45 RifleCow wrote:
I'd like to see something buffing ravens to incentivize terrains into making the unit. Maybe a spell that can be cast which prevents debuffs and spell damage on a single unit, similar in vein to d-matrix. Then with two ravens you could prevent fungals from catching your ravens, allowing them to be effectively massed.
avilo often does mass raven in late TvZ and the trouble is you can kill 20 infestors but once they get a good fungal or two you've lost the game because you can't replace the army supply quick and well enough. He suggested extending the HSM range so a fungaled raven could at least attack. Didn't seem to be a bad idea.
I am really curious here, why did he all his ravens clumped like that?
Something noticed in zvz more and more is a couple muta's split killing infestors.
You either kill the muta's with fungal and waste a lot or lose your infestors.
Can't terrans do the same with say like 2 banshees and just be very annoying?
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On June 23 2012 05:53 Sc2Null wrote:
Something that disturbs me about this whole conversation is that people are stating zerg,terran and protoss in a way that does not make sense..It is not that "zerg" is dominating, it is the players that are playing zerg that are dominating..there is a difference. If people could stop being raging fanboys for a couple minutes and look at the people playing the race, these topics wouldn't pop up.
DRG wins mlg; does that mean zerg is overpowered due to the queen buff or is DRG just better?
Think about this while I go play league of legends.
Well everyone thought Terran was OP even when Terran players were just better than Zerg/Protoss players.
I think DRG said so in a GSL interview (somewhere around this forum...) that if he didn't make a mistake, he'll beat anyone with higher skill than him.
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On June 23 2012 04:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:30 stupidhydro wrote:On June 23 2012 04:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Takes way more than a month to adapt to a new patch. Especially at the highest level. 3 months, then we can talk. I don't really get why people think this is true. Pro terrans all around the world are practicing 8+ hours a day and I honestly don't think that they're truly overlooking something after having this patch out for over a month. If this was a late game problem like with the ghost nerf, then I think you might be right since very few games make it that far and it takes far longer to explore those areas but if we're just talking straight up build orders and terrans can't find any way to deal damage or stay even economically without some sort of extremely vulnerable and greedy play, then I don't think it takes 3 months to figure that out. It seems like no matter the OPENER, the zerg can go straight up 4-6 queens, 3 bases with a ton of drones, and terrans can't punish it or keep up unless they also go extremely fast, straight 3 orbitals... and then they die to roaches and/or banes. TL;DR: Terrans can't even find an OPENING BUILD ORDER that can punish or keep up with the zerg and there's only so many options to explore with that. BW has been in a constant state of evolution, bringing changes in metagame that make each race strong and weak for varying amounts of time. Fact is, the game is constantly evolving and this has been happening for years. The recent Terran struggles against Zerg are not unique. Anyone who has followed competitive RTS has seen this 100 times. I understand that younger players haven't seen that sort of thing. But 8 hours a day does not mean you totally figure out the game. Its still hugely evolving and HISTORY SHOWS that it takes more than a month to figure out a patch. Just look at how long BW was on a single patch and the masssssssssive shifts that occurred.
That's not the same. In BW the metagame shifted from emergent gameplay. In this situation Blizzard is altering the game in a way that is not shifted by the players. The game is not "constantly evolving" in a natural position when each patch set the evolution into another splinter direction.
Wouldn't reversing the patch and let it evolve naturally be a better comparison to what you describe?
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On June 23 2012 06:05 NAPoleonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 05:53 Sc2Null wrote:
Something that disturbs me about this whole conversation is that people are stating zerg,terran and protoss in a way that does not make sense..It is not that "zerg" is dominating, it is the players that are playing zerg that are dominating..there is a difference. If people could stop being raging fanboys for a couple minutes and look at the people playing the race, these topics wouldn't pop up.
DRG wins mlg; does that mean zerg is overpowered due to the queen buff or is DRG just better?
Think about this while I go play league of legends. Well everyone thought Terran was OP even when Terran players were just better than Zerg/Protoss players. I think DRG said so in a GSL interview (somewhere around this forum...) that if he didn't make a mistake, he'll beat anyone with higher skill than him.
No, DRG is one of the best players in the world and is basically outside of balance talk. We are seeing basically every top Korean Terran get smashed by every good/mediocre Korean Zerg.
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On June 23 2012 06:05 NAPoleonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 05:53 Sc2Null wrote:
Something that disturbs me about this whole conversation is that people are stating zerg,terran and protoss in a way that does not make sense..It is not that "zerg" is dominating, it is the players that are playing zerg that are dominating..there is a difference. If people could stop being raging fanboys for a couple minutes and look at the people playing the race, these topics wouldn't pop up.
DRG wins mlg; does that mean zerg is overpowered due to the queen buff or is DRG just better?
Think about this while I go play league of legends. Well everyone thought Terran was OP even when Terran players were just better than Zerg/Protoss players. I think DRG said so in a GSL interview (somewhere around this forum...) that if he didn't make a mistake, he'll beat anyone with higher skill than him.
He never said anything about a higher skill then him, don't make stuff up please...
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