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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 23 2012 04:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Takes way more than a month to adapt to a new patch. Especially at the highest level. 3 months, then we can talk.
I don't really get why people think this is true. Pro terrans all around the world are practicing 8+ hours a day and I honestly don't think that they're truly overlooking something after having this patch out for over a month. If this was a late game problem like with the ghost nerf, then I think you might be right since very few games make it that far and it takes far longer to explore those areas but if we're just talking straight up build orders and terrans can't find any way to deal damage or stay even economically without some sort of extremely vulnerable and greedy play, then I don't think it takes 3 months to figure that out. It seems like no matter the OPENER, the zerg can go straight up 4-6 queens, 3 bases with a ton of drones, and terrans can't punish it or keep up unless they also go extremely fast, straight 3 orbitals... and then they die to roaches and/or banes.
TL;DR: Terrans can't even find an OPENING BUILD ORDER that can punish or keep up with the zerg and there's only so many options to explore with that.
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On June 23 2012 04:23 Mjolnir wrote:
Don't take it personally man, it's just a game.
Whenever people say this, they don't seem to understand that people base their entire lives around this game to have an income.
It's not just the game, and I advise you should refrain from saying that it is.
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On June 23 2012 04:30 stupidhydro wrote:
TL;DR: Terrans can't even find an OPENING BUILD ORDER that can punish or keep up with the zerg and there's only so many options to explore with that.
This. A lot of players claim "wait 3 months" but Terran is actually unable to touch Zerg atm. It's either all-in or until medivacs are out to pressure. Zerg has the ability to play standard, macro, or roach/bane pressure (i'm not even calling it all-in because it really isn't at this point)
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On June 23 2012 04:30 stupidhydro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Takes way more than a month to adapt to a new patch. Especially at the highest level. 3 months, then we can talk. I don't really get why people think this is true. Pro terrans all around the world are practicing 8+ hours a day and I honestly don't think that they're truly overlooking something after having this patch out for over a month. If this was a late game problem like with the ghost nerf, then I think you might be right since very few games make it that far and it takes far longer to explore those areas but if we're just talking straight up build orders and terrans can't find any way to deal damage or stay even economically without some sort of extremely vulnerable and greedy play, then I don't think it takes 3 months to figure that out. It seems like no matter the OPENER, the zerg can go straight up 4-6 queens, 3 bases with a ton of drones, and terrans can't punish it or keep up unless they also go extremely fast, straight 3 orbitals... and then they die to roaches and/or banes. TL;DR: Terrans can't even find an OPENING BUILD ORDER that can punish or keep up with the zerg and there's only so many options to explore with that.
The reasoning behind why many consider a single month an inappropriately short timeframe with which to ascertain balance is quite simple, and it revolves around a little, old game we like to abbreviate with two letters, B and W. After watching a game with a similar structure evolve over the course of YEARS, not months, a balance judgement based on only a month's worth of games seems rather hasty, wouldn't you agree?
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I don't see how giving more time can help the terrans adapt to this queen madness. It just took away everything terran had in the early game and now the scouting and map control capabilities of terran are far too limited to make rational decisions based on what you see. It's pretty much about gambling with very abusive build orders like cc first into another cc and double upgrade hoping for no bane bust or siege tanks hoping for zerg all in. There's almost no middle ground revolved around strategic decisions anymore.
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On June 23 2012 04:43 aTnClouD wrote:
I don't see how giving more time can help the terrans adapt to this queen madness. It just took away everything terran had in the early game and now the scouting and map control capabilities of terran are far too limited to make rational decisions based on what you see. It's pretty much about gambling with very abusive build orders like cc first into another cc and double upgrade hoping for no bane bust or siege tanks hoping for zerg all in. There's almost no middle ground revolved around strategic decisions anymore.
Exactly
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What would you GMs and pros think about the following:
1. Revert the queen range to what it was.
2. Make hellions wider so that they don't fit through the same tiny spaces that a Zergling can.
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On June 23 2012 04:41 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:30 stupidhydro wrote:On June 23 2012 04:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Takes way more than a month to adapt to a new patch. Especially at the highest level. 3 months, then we can talk. I don't really get why people think this is true. Pro terrans all around the world are practicing 8+ hours a day and I honestly don't think that they're truly overlooking something after having this patch out for over a month. If this was a late game problem like with the ghost nerf, then I think you might be right since very few games make it that far and it takes far longer to explore those areas but if we're just talking straight up build orders and terrans can't find any way to deal damage or stay even economically without some sort of extremely vulnerable and greedy play, then I don't think it takes 3 months to figure that out. It seems like no matter the OPENER, the zerg can go straight up 4-6 queens, 3 bases with a ton of drones, and terrans can't punish it or keep up unless they also go extremely fast, straight 3 orbitals... and then they die to roaches and/or banes. TL;DR: Terrans can't even find an OPENING BUILD ORDER that can punish or keep up with the zerg and there's only so many options to explore with that. The reasoning behind why many consider a single month an inappropriately short timeframe with which to ascertain balance is quite simple, and it revolves around a little, old game we like to abbreviate with two letters, B and W. After watching a game with a similar structure evolve over the course of YEARS, not months, a balance judgement based on only a month's worth of games seems rather hasty, wouldn't you agree?
You completely missed the part about him having an argument that you should most likely try to disprove if you are to disprove of his conclusion. BW is another game, where no patches was distributed at all after quite a short time of competitive play, imbalances started due to metagame updates and ended due to metagame updates. This imbalance started with an unneccesarry/to big change and to think that it should end likewise is not being hasty, especially as it's one of the biggest imbalances so far in SC2.
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Zerg is atm in a way, way, WAY more favorable position that terran was when the queen buff was introduced. And even in term of "free win all ins". This can't be a serious argument to say the game is better on a whole now, as this patch gave zerg the possibility to be what terran was. So if you're arguing that zergs were dying to allins or unscoutable free wins or whatever, you can not argue for this buff as now it's terran that dies to that kind of stuff.
People who argue on the time just don't understand how deeply the matchup was changed by the buff. The whole philosophy of the matchup has changed now.
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On June 23 2012 04:43 aTnClouD wrote:
I don't see how giving more time can help the terrans adapt to this queen madness. It just took away everything terran had in the early game and now the scouting and map control capabilities of terran are far too limited to make rational decisions based on what you see. It's pretty much about gambling with very abusive build orders like cc first into another cc and double upgrade hoping for no bane bust or siege tanks hoping for zerg all in. There's almost no middle ground revolved around strategic decisions anymore.
This or allin is really your only choice. And even when you do an abusive build, as cc first into 2 barracks into a third cc into early double upgrades, and he doesn't allin, it's not like you're in an amazing position if he just played the standard mass queen 3 fast hatch, you're even at best, with creep at your third by 13 min mark ._.
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The hellion opening was never even a problem for zerg. After really successful and skillful ones, if you looked at drone count, food count, etc. Zerg would still end up ahead after. It was just not so far ahead that it was an unwinnable position.
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On June 23 2012 04:49 NATO wrote:
The hellion opening was never even a problem for zerg. After really successful and skillful ones, if you looked at drone count, food count, etc. Zerg would still end up ahead after. It was just not so far ahead that it was an unwinnable position.
Seriously...the ONLY time I saw DRG lose to a hellion build was complete lack of scouting. The overlord change fixed that.
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On June 23 2012 04:34 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:23 Mjolnir wrote:
Don't take it personally man, it's just a game.
Whenever people say this, they don't seem to understand that people base their entire lives around this game to have an income. It's not just the game, and I advise you should refrain from saying that it is.
It's a good thing that almost nobody in this thread is pissed off for that reason. Come on, people here are raging because they lost the latest ladder match, not because so and so lost to so and so in a tournament and that means they make less money.
I don't feel anyone can say with absolute certainty that this change to queens is overpowered and game-breaking.
Take more time to sort it out, then complain. Right now, it all just smacks of knee-jerk reactions.
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On June 23 2012 04:51 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:49 NATO wrote:
The hellion opening was never even a problem for zerg. After really successful and skillful ones, if you looked at drone count, food count, etc. Zerg would still end up ahead after. It was just not so far ahead that it was an unwinnable position. Seriously...the ONLY time I saw DRG lose to a hellion build was complete lack of scouting. The overlord change fixed that.
Actually, DRG has said the Overlord buff did not affect his play seeing as how a high-level Zerg should know how to scout anyway.
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The overlord buff is justified with the addition of big maps. It was a good buff imo, and even then, ferrarilords are still very slow =)
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On June 23 2012 04:30 stupidhydro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Takes way more than a month to adapt to a new patch. Especially at the highest level. 3 months, then we can talk. I don't really get why people think this is true. Pro terrans all around the world are practicing 8+ hours a day and I honestly don't think that they're truly overlooking something after having this patch out for over a month. If this was a late game problem like with the ghost nerf, then I think you might be right since very few games make it that far and it takes far longer to explore those areas but if we're just talking straight up build orders and terrans can't find any way to deal damage or stay even economically without some sort of extremely vulnerable and greedy play, then I don't think it takes 3 months to figure that out. It seems like no matter the OPENER, the zerg can go straight up 4-6 queens, 3 bases with a ton of drones, and terrans can't punish it or keep up unless they also go extremely fast, straight 3 orbitals... and then they die to roaches and/or banes. TL;DR: Terrans can't even find an OPENING BUILD ORDER that can punish or keep up with the zerg and there's only so many options to explore with that.
BW has been in a constant state of evolution, bringing changes in metagame that make each race strong and weak for varying amounts of time. Fact is, the game is constantly evolving and this has been happening for years. The recent Terran struggles against Zerg are not unique. Anyone who has followed competitive RTS has seen this 100 times. I understand that younger players haven't seen that sort of thing. But 8 hours a day does not mean you totally figure out the game. Its still hugely evolving and HISTORY SHOWS that it takes more than a month to figure out a patch. Just look at how long BW was on a single patch and the masssssssssive shifts that occurred.
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i guess they can always make the queen range four instead of five, still more than it used to be. That is of course, if terrans dont compensate, which I think they will.
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On June 23 2012 04:41 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:30 stupidhydro wrote:On June 23 2012 04:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Takes way more than a month to adapt to a new patch. Especially at the highest level. 3 months, then we can talk. I don't really get why people think this is true. Pro terrans all around the world are practicing 8+ hours a day and I honestly don't think that they're truly overlooking something after having this patch out for over a month. If this was a late game problem like with the ghost nerf, then I think you might be right since very few games make it that far and it takes far longer to explore those areas but if we're just talking straight up build orders and terrans can't find any way to deal damage or stay even economically without some sort of extremely vulnerable and greedy play, then I don't think it takes 3 months to figure that out. It seems like no matter the OPENER, the zerg can go straight up 4-6 queens, 3 bases with a ton of drones, and terrans can't punish it or keep up unless they also go extremely fast, straight 3 orbitals... and then they die to roaches and/or banes. TL;DR: Terrans can't even find an OPENING BUILD ORDER that can punish or keep up with the zerg and there's only so many options to explore with that. The reasoning behind why many consider a single month an inappropriately short timeframe with which to ascertain balance is quite simple, and it revolves around a little, old game we like to abbreviate with two letters, B and W. After watching a game with a similar structure evolve over the course of YEARS, not months, a balance judgement based on only a month's worth of games seems rather hasty, wouldn't you agree?
Sure, but Blizzard didn't step in and patch the meta game constantly in BW. They've already started down that road and there is no going back.
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On June 23 2012 04:53 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:34 HeroMystic wrote:On June 23 2012 04:23 Mjolnir wrote:
Don't take it personally man, it's just a game.
Whenever people say this, they don't seem to understand that people base their entire lives around this game to have an income. It's not just the game, and I advise you should refrain from saying that it is. It's a good thing that almost nobody in this thread is pissed off for that reason. Come on, people here are raging because they lost the latest ladder match, not because so and so lost to so and so in a tournament and that means they make less money. I don't feel anyone can say with absolute certainty that this change to queens is overpowered and game-breaking. Take more time to sort it out, then complain. Right now, it all just smacks of knee-jerk reactions.
I imagine quite a few SC2 spectators are pissed off with the change. I couldn't care less about it for my own ladder, I don't play at a pro level and there's enough room for me to improve to beat Z's that aren't able to exploit it to the max. The change pisses me off because I enjoy watching the GSL and what was the best matchup by far has been reduced to garbage thanks to blizzard.
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On June 23 2012 04:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 04:30 stupidhydro wrote:On June 23 2012 04:05 Mohdoo wrote:
Takes way more than a month to adapt to a new patch. Especially at the highest level. 3 months, then we can talk. I don't really get why people think this is true. Pro terrans all around the world are practicing 8+ hours a day and I honestly don't think that they're truly overlooking something after having this patch out for over a month. If this was a late game problem like with the ghost nerf, then I think you might be right since very few games make it that far and it takes far longer to explore those areas but if we're just talking straight up build orders and terrans can't find any way to deal damage or stay even economically without some sort of extremely vulnerable and greedy play, then I don't think it takes 3 months to figure that out. It seems like no matter the OPENER, the zerg can go straight up 4-6 queens, 3 bases with a ton of drones, and terrans can't punish it or keep up unless they also go extremely fast, straight 3 orbitals... and then they die to roaches and/or banes. TL;DR: Terrans can't even find an OPENING BUILD ORDER that can punish or keep up with the zerg and there's only so many options to explore with that. BW has been in a constant state of evolution, bringing changes in metagame that make each race strong and weak for varying amounts of time. Fact is, the game is constantly evolving and this has been happening for years. The recent Terran struggles against Zerg are not unique. Anyone who has followed competitive RTS has seen this 100 times. I understand that younger players haven't seen that sort of thing. But 8 hours a day does not mean you totally figure out the game. Its still hugely evolving and HISTORY SHOWS that it takes more than a month to figure out a patch. Just look at how long BW was on a single patch and the masssssssssive shifts that occurred.
But in BW, it's the players that dictate the flow of the metagame whereas in SC2, Blizzard takes part with balance patches and the like. If people are gonna use BW as an example, then there shouldn't have been balance patches in the first place. "TERRAN OP TERRAN OP" was SC2's catchphrase throughout most of its life and instead of the players changing the game purely by themselves, Blizzard intervene and helped them along with nerfs and buffs. In fact, Terran has been the only race that has been "evolving" by itself despite constant nerfs.
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EPT
