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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
Canada13379 Posts
On June 23 2012 00:34 TRaFFiC wrote:
I would just like to say it's hilariously stupid when non-terran players say terran players need to stop doing helion openings. There is a reason helion opening have been the go to build for more than a year. They give you warnings against a multitude of all ins and are the only real way to counter roach/bane or bane busts. Try holdings those with marines in a bunker. Only marine king can do that :D
More bunkers, and more depots :D
Protoss relies on gates to block, make barracks to block  The scary thing is watching shit blow up, once the banelings are dead you are good to go.
I think non terrans feel that Terran has had the same builds for a very very very long time with little variation on how to get there or when to go for a particular composition.
For us non-Terrans, we have gone through different stylistic periods and while a composition might seem the same or similar, how we get there and how we deal with things is different. Granted, tech switching for Terran is more difficult than for Zerg, and as far as basic units, its easier for toss to choose stalkers or zealots at different times thanks to WG. However, terran always seems to go rax-expo-fact-hellions-tank-medivac/bio.
I dont see hellion drops, I dont see bio -- early third, secure 6 gas into mech. The only time I ever see the bio into mech is from MKP sometimes. Although I think he feels he is better at bio/mech attrition style against Zerg because his micro is so good and he does it more often.
The biggest problem MIGHT be fast 3 hatch zerg with many queens. Its already a problem in PvZ to a certain extent where you need either a really good 2 base all in, or a really fast 3rd to hold. It might also be in creep spread TvZ since Terrans never make mobile detection. The most worrisome thing is how fast Zerg can get an econ up and how much they can make off of their 3 base in terms of roach or ling bling or how fast they can tech to hive. The super quick econ from 3 hatch, 4th hatch (macro) with inject means so many units can come out O.O
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On June 23 2012 00:41 Cutlery wrote:
The way I see it, and I'm more mellow on the whole situation, is that now zerg has a way to deal with hellions from the start; and are utilizing it heavily because hellions are used so much. Where before there was nothing to be done; now there is one thing that can be done: Queens. There's nothing new about having certain tools to handle different situation; and so this is to be expected. Now early game can be something other than 100% hellion every single game; maybe.
Watch Mvp. Watch MKP. Watch Happy. Please...they aren't using hellions in the early game at all anymore. 1 game tanks, 1 game banshees, 1 game bio. Just gets CRUSHED by 6 queens 3 base zerg.
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Honestly dude, all this means is that you suck :/
Point proven I guess..
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On June 23 2012 00:27 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:10 SupLilSon wrote:On June 23 2012 00:04 Doodsmack wrote:On June 22 2012 23:54 SupLilSon wrote:On June 22 2012 23:11 Doodsmack wrote:On June 22 2012 22:55 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 22 2012 22:50 Doodsmack wrote:
Would love to see the replays of the people crying in this thread. Their minerals probably skyrocket to 2000 when theyre doing things with their army on the map on only 2 bases LOL. Yeah the reason you lost was because of balance, not your horrible mechanics.
If you're not high master, then shut the fuck up about balance and get better because at your level, player skill level is far more determinative than balance. Only when both players possess near-optimal mechanics does balance become determinative. It's how Starcraft fucking works, if you don't understand that the sorry but you're unintelligent. Regardless of whether or not you're high masters, Zerg still benefits from the buffs. And believe it or not, all players get matched up to players who are at a similar level of play. So balance does affect gameplay even at a lower level, and even as early as high platinum are players smart enough to take advantage of these buffs that they've received. Some of us aren't out to become the best player in the world - we just enjoy playing the game, but patches like these ruin it for us. Thanks for calling the majority of Starcraft 2 players unintelligent, have a nice day. You didn't address my point. At skill levels lower than high master, an improvement in mechanics far outweighs game balance. If you're platinum then you're doing so many things wrong that balance is just one small factor in your games. I am mid master and when I play against diamond or below zergs and tosses, I crush them with mass marine 98% of the time. Why can't you do the same? Because your mechanics are FUCKING TERRIBLE. Yesterday I beat a mid master toss with mass marine on daybreak. I opened triple orbital, and powered up marines and Protoss did not have sufficient skill level to defend all 3 of his bases. Balance did not factor in at all. There's a reason why pro Terrans don't bother analyze replays of warm up games that were losses. The poor mechanics dictate that the decision making and tactics were mostly irrelevant. I cringe every time I see posts like this, oozing with self - righteousness. I looked you up and you are barely mid master so GTFO talking other people down about terrible mechanics. I guess by your logic, only TBLS can complain about balance. All these code S losers just need to get better. So you looked up my account that has like 5 ladder games the past 3 seasons and somehow determined my MMR, and implied that you have to be at a high skill level in order to understand that only high masters have near-optimal mechanics. Then you claimed that when I referred to high masters it's equivalent to referring to Code S players. Hopefully that post was a fluke and not indicative of your intelligence level. No, I looked at your last season also where you were something like 400 points master, which is pretty shitty. I'm just laughing at the fact that you set some arbitrary cutoff at "high-master" as the point where people can talk about balance. I was making fun of your post by pointing out that many top SC2 players have poor mechanics in comparison to their BW counterparts, but that doesn't stop them from talking balance. The only one showing a lack of intelligence and reasoning is you. 400 points after how many games? What was my bonus pool remaining? Did you look at my opponents' points? How do you know my MMR then? Do you consider yourself a smart person? BW players are irrelevant to this discussion. I'm talking about near-optimal SC2 mechanics, not BW mechanics. And I didn't say sub-high master players can't talk about balance in general. I said they shouldn't blame their losses on balance. Reading comprehension.
No, I don't consider myself a smart person, but in comparison to you, I'm a damn genius.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 23 2012 00:36 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:33 TiBoxy wrote:
At the same time the buff has not changed a single aspect of my game. I still do exactly the same build I did before the patch, and my creepspread is not anything better except for maybe the first 7 mins of the game. Energy builds up on queens, so where I before had to wait for 3 roaches or use a spine to get creep going, and then place several tumors at once, I can usually just start spreading it right away now. But from watching replays of before and after, this means absolutely nothing for my total creepspread from 8-9 minutes and onwards. It is identical. I think the patch has made alot more people do the 4 queen gasless opening and thats the reason T notices more creep, but imo it has nothing to do with the patch and I would love it to be reverted as said earlier. Come to think of it the only difference I have noticed is that it is alot easier to hold of reaper openings, but I rarely ever saw that anyway in the period before the patch. Honestly dude, all this means is that you suck :/
Wow -_-.
Anyways, bias out of the way. Yes queens have 5 range and overlords move faster. Always thought changing both of these things now were oddly timed. Queens don't really need to have 5 range, 3-4 range is fine. Just makes the zerg play a lot safer. But for now, terran just needs to find a new way to pressure zerg. The fact that if you don't pressure zerg and let them macro is always the dangerous option and it breaks my heart that some terran don't do this until like 12 minutes in some pro games T_T.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
1 month isnt enough. Give it 3, maybe 6.
Go back and look at the 1-1-1 TvP domination era, that seemed a lot more "completely broken and the game must be patched or the matchup will end" than current ZvT to me. There IS room for adaptation, it is not like an 8-15 minute push is crushing you regardless of how you play or what you do, even if you know exactly what is coming before the game starts
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On June 23 2012 00:45 YipCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:36 Sroobz wrote:On June 23 2012 00:33 TiBoxy wrote:
At the same time the buff has not changed a single aspect of my game. I still do exactly the same build I did before the patch, and my creepspread is not anything better except for maybe the first 7 mins of the game. Energy builds up on queens, so where I before had to wait for 3 roaches or use a spine to get creep going, and then place several tumors at once, I can usually just start spreading it right away now. But from watching replays of before and after, this means absolutely nothing for my total creepspread from 8-9 minutes and onwards. It is identical. I think the patch has made alot more people do the 4 queen gasless opening and thats the reason T notices more creep, but imo it has nothing to do with the patch and I would love it to be reverted as said earlier. Come to think of it the only difference I have noticed is that it is alot easier to hold of reaper openings, but I rarely ever saw that anyway in the period before the patch. Honestly dude, all this means is that you suck :/ Wow -_-. Anyways, bias out of the way. Yes queens have 5 range and overlords move faster. Always thought changing both of these things now were oddly timed. Queens don't really need to have 5 range, 3-4 range is fine. Just makes the zerg play a lot safer. But for now, terran just needs to find a new way to pressure zerg. The fact that if you don't pressure zerg and let them macro is always the dangerous option and it breaks my heart that some terran don't do this until like 12 minutes in some pro games T_T.
Christ. Are you watching any pro TvZs at the moment?
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On June 23 2012 00:47 Cyro wrote:
1 month isnt enough. Give it 3, maybe 6.
Go back and look at the 1-1-1 TvP domination era, that seemed a lot more "completely broken and the game must be patched or the matchup will end" than current ZvT to me. There IS room for adaptation, it is not like an 8-15 minute push is crushing you regardless of how you play or what you do, even if you know exactly what is coming before the game starts
/Immortal change. Wasn't just some magical time when P adapted ROFL
Sorry double post :/
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On June 23 2012 00:41 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:34 TRaFFiC wrote:
I would just like to say it's hilariously stupid when non-terran players say terran players need to stop doing helion openings. There is a reason helion opening have been the go to build for more than a year. They give you warnings against a multitude of all ins and are the only real way to counter roach/bane or bane busts. Try holdings those with marines in a bunker. Only marine king can do that :D More bunkers, and more depots :D Protoss relies on gates to block, make barracks to block The scary thing is watching shit blow up, once the banelings are dead you are good to go. I think non terrans feel that Terran has had the same builds for a very very very long time with little variation on how to get there or when to go for a particular composition. For us non-Terrans, we have gone through different stylistic periods and while a composition might seem the same or similar, how we get there and how we deal with things is different. Granted, tech switching for Terran is more difficult than for Zerg, and as far as basic units, its easier for toss to choose stalkers or zealots at different times thanks to WG. However, terran always seems to go rax-expo-fact-hellions-tank-medivac/bio. I dont see hellion drops, I dont see bio -- early third, secure 6 gas into mech. The only time I ever see the bio into mech is from MKP sometimes. Although I think he feels he is better at bio/mech attrition style against Zerg because his micro is so good and he does it more often. The biggest problem MIGHT be fast 3 hatch zerg with many queens. Its already a problem in PvZ to a certain extent where you need either a really good 2 base all in, or a really fast 3rd to hold. It might also be in creep spread TvZ since Terrans never make mobile detection. The most worrisome thing is how fast Zerg can get an econ up and how much they can make off of their 3 base in terms of roach or ling bling or how fast they can tech to hive. The super quick econ from 3 hatch, 4th hatch (macro) with inject means so many units can come out O.O
Spot on.
There are still many things that can be tried in tvz. As you said, a protoss style low ground wall is a good start. Teran does not have the capacity for a 2 base timing after a fast expand as they dont have warpgate. But on the plus side terran has better units for holing an early third (marauders), since zerg wont have the larva to max on lings at the <13 minute mark, so it should just force a longer game.
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On June 23 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:41 Cutlery wrote:
The way I see it, and I'm more mellow on the whole situation, is that now zerg has a way to deal with hellions from the start; and are utilizing it heavily because hellions are used so much. Where before there was nothing to be done; now there is one thing that can be done: Queens. There's nothing new about having certain tools to handle different situation; and so this is to be expected. Now early game can be something other than 100% hellion every single game; maybe. Watch Mvp. Watch MKP. Watch Happy. Please...they aren't using hellions in the early game at all anymore. 1 game tanks, 1 game banshees, 1 game bio. Just gets CRUSHED by 6 queens 3 base zerg.
Which games are you talking about?
If you are talking about GSTL where Symbol beat Happy,
it was just an roach/bane all-in against a Terran going 3OC.
Nothing much to talk about.
In GSTL,MVP went mech against Symbol but got caught with his pants down when roaches pounce on his mech army.
If that didn't happen, games could have gone different.
The only game we really can talk about is MKP vs Symbol where Symbol utilize the 6 queen build to it's maximum value.
He held the first push by MKP marauder/marine stim medivac timing with just 6 queens and 2 spines and got out just enough
lings and banelings and mutas to crush that push. After that,game snowball into a very long macro game where Symbol just outplayed MKP utilizing mass zergling drops and nydus worm popping infestor and using BL to siege the 5th.
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On June 23 2012 00:27 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:10 SupLilSon wrote:On June 23 2012 00:04 Doodsmack wrote:On June 22 2012 23:54 SupLilSon wrote:On June 22 2012 23:11 Doodsmack wrote:On June 22 2012 22:55 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 22 2012 22:50 Doodsmack wrote:
Would love to see the replays of the people crying in this thread. Their minerals probably skyrocket to 2000 when theyre doing things with their army on the map on only 2 bases LOL. Yeah the reason you lost was because of balance, not your horrible mechanics.
If you're not high master, then shut the fuck up about balance and get better because at your level, player skill level is far more determinative than balance. Only when both players possess near-optimal mechanics does balance become determinative. It's how Starcraft fucking works, if you don't understand that the sorry but you're unintelligent. Regardless of whether or not you're high masters, Zerg still benefits from the buffs. And believe it or not, all players get matched up to players who are at a similar level of play. So balance does affect gameplay even at a lower level, and even as early as high platinum are players smart enough to take advantage of these buffs that they've received. Some of us aren't out to become the best player in the world - we just enjoy playing the game, but patches like these ruin it for us. Thanks for calling the majority of Starcraft 2 players unintelligent, have a nice day. You didn't address my point. At skill levels lower than high master, an improvement in mechanics far outweighs game balance. If you're platinum then you're doing so many things wrong that balance is just one small factor in your games. I am mid master and when I play against diamond or below zergs and tosses, I crush them with mass marine 98% of the time. Why can't you do the same? Because your mechanics are FUCKING TERRIBLE. Yesterday I beat a mid master toss with mass marine on daybreak. I opened triple orbital, and powered up marines and Protoss did not have sufficient skill level to defend all 3 of his bases. Balance did not factor in at all. There's a reason why pro Terrans don't bother analyze replays of warm up games that were losses. The poor mechanics dictate that the decision making and tactics were mostly irrelevant. I cringe every time I see posts like this, oozing with self - righteousness. I looked you up and you are barely mid master so GTFO talking other people down about terrible mechanics. I guess by your logic, only TBLS can complain about balance. All these code S losers just need to get better. So you looked up my account that has like 5 ladder games the past 3 seasons and somehow determined my MMR, and implied that you have to be at a high skill level in order to understand that only high masters have near-optimal mechanics. Then you claimed that when I referred to high masters it's equivalent to referring to Code S players. Hopefully that post was a fluke and not indicative of your intelligence level. No, I looked at your last season also where you were something like 400 points master, which is pretty shitty. I'm just laughing at the fact that you set some arbitrary cutoff at "high-master" as the point where people can talk about balance. I was making fun of your post by pointing out that many top SC2 players have poor mechanics in comparison to their BW counterparts, but that doesn't stop them from talking balance. The only one showing a lack of intelligence and reasoning is you. 400 points after how many games? What was my bonus pool remaining? Did you look at my opponents' points? How do you know my MMR then? Do you consider yourself a smart person? BW players are irrelevant to this discussion. I'm talking about near-optimal SC2 mechanics, not BW mechanics. And I didn't say sub-high master players can't talk about balance in general. I said they shouldn't blame their losses on balance. Reading comprehension.
I don't understand how you say below high master mechanics outweigh balance, which is obviously true and is nothing new, but then say that pro terrans don't look at replays because their poor mechanics make their decision making and tactics irrelevant? Wouldn't it be the complete opposite?
Also, why bother even bringing up that low level players have bad mechanics as if you brilliantly realized it and are enlightening everyone with your discovery. Everyone knows this. And why is it weird that he would think you could be talking about Code S players when the post before that you said "pro terrans"?
And you're mid masters, how are you trying to use number of games and bonus pool to try to manipulate that?
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On June 23 2012 00:50 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:43 Sroobz wrote:On June 23 2012 00:41 Cutlery wrote:
The way I see it, and I'm more mellow on the whole situation, is that now zerg has a way to deal with hellions from the start; and are utilizing it heavily because hellions are used so much. Where before there was nothing to be done; now there is one thing that can be done: Queens. There's nothing new about having certain tools to handle different situation; and so this is to be expected. Now early game can be something other than 100% hellion every single game; maybe. Watch Mvp. Watch MKP. Watch Happy. Please...they aren't using hellions in the early game at all anymore. 1 game tanks, 1 game banshees, 1 game bio. Just gets CRUSHED by 6 queens 3 base zerg. Which games are you talking about? If you are talking about GSTL where Symbol beat Happy, it was just an roach/bane all-in against a Terran going 3OC. Nothing much to talk about. In GSTL,MVP went mech against Symbol but got caught with his pants down when roaches pounce on his mech army. If that didn't happen, games could have gone different. The only game we really can talk about is MKP vs Symbol where Symbol utilize the 6 queen build to it's maximum value. He held the first push by MKP marauder/marine stim medivac timing with just 6 queens and 2 spines and got out just enough lings and banelings and mutas to crush that push. After that,game snowball into a very long macro game where Symbol just outplayed MKP utilizing mass zergling drops and nydus worm popping infestor and using BL to siege the 5th.
TakeTV qualifiers.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On June 23 2012 00:47 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:47 Cyro wrote:
1 month isnt enough. Give it 3, maybe 6.
Go back and look at the 1-1-1 TvP domination era, that seemed a lot more "completely broken and the game must be patched or the matchup will end" than current ZvT to me. There IS room for adaptation, it is not like an 8-15 minute push is crushing you regardless of how you play or what you do, even if you know exactly what is coming before the game starts /Immortal change. Wasn't just some magical time when P adapted ROFL Sorry double post :/
You really think, of all things, buffing immortal range from 5 to 6 made anything other than a small difference?
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On June 23 2012 00:50 bLo0d wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:27 Doodsmack wrote:On June 23 2012 00:10 SupLilSon wrote:On June 23 2012 00:04 Doodsmack wrote:On June 22 2012 23:54 SupLilSon wrote:On June 22 2012 23:11 Doodsmack wrote:On June 22 2012 22:55 CakeSauc3 wrote:On June 22 2012 22:50 Doodsmack wrote:
Would love to see the replays of the people crying in this thread. Their minerals probably skyrocket to 2000 when theyre doing things with their army on the map on only 2 bases LOL. Yeah the reason you lost was because of balance, not your horrible mechanics.
If you're not high master, then shut the fuck up about balance and get better because at your level, player skill level is far more determinative than balance. Only when both players possess near-optimal mechanics does balance become determinative. It's how Starcraft fucking works, if you don't understand that the sorry but you're unintelligent. Regardless of whether or not you're high masters, Zerg still benefits from the buffs. And believe it or not, all players get matched up to players who are at a similar level of play. So balance does affect gameplay even at a lower level, and even as early as high platinum are players smart enough to take advantage of these buffs that they've received. Some of us aren't out to become the best player in the world - we just enjoy playing the game, but patches like these ruin it for us. Thanks for calling the majority of Starcraft 2 players unintelligent, have a nice day. You didn't address my point. At skill levels lower than high master, an improvement in mechanics far outweighs game balance. If you're platinum then you're doing so many things wrong that balance is just one small factor in your games. I am mid master and when I play against diamond or below zergs and tosses, I crush them with mass marine 98% of the time. Why can't you do the same? Because your mechanics are FUCKING TERRIBLE. Yesterday I beat a mid master toss with mass marine on daybreak. I opened triple orbital, and powered up marines and Protoss did not have sufficient skill level to defend all 3 of his bases. Balance did not factor in at all. There's a reason why pro Terrans don't bother analyze replays of warm up games that were losses. The poor mechanics dictate that the decision making and tactics were mostly irrelevant. I cringe every time I see posts like this, oozing with self - righteousness. I looked you up and you are barely mid master so GTFO talking other people down about terrible mechanics. I guess by your logic, only TBLS can complain about balance. All these code S losers just need to get better. So you looked up my account that has like 5 ladder games the past 3 seasons and somehow determined my MMR, and implied that you have to be at a high skill level in order to understand that only high masters have near-optimal mechanics. Then you claimed that when I referred to high masters it's equivalent to referring to Code S players. Hopefully that post was a fluke and not indicative of your intelligence level. No, I looked at your last season also where you were something like 400 points master, which is pretty shitty. I'm just laughing at the fact that you set some arbitrary cutoff at "high-master" as the point where people can talk about balance. I was making fun of your post by pointing out that many top SC2 players have poor mechanics in comparison to their BW counterparts, but that doesn't stop them from talking balance. The only one showing a lack of intelligence and reasoning is you. 400 points after how many games? What was my bonus pool remaining? Did you look at my opponents' points? How do you know my MMR then? Do you consider yourself a smart person? BW players are irrelevant to this discussion. I'm talking about near-optimal SC2 mechanics, not BW mechanics. And I didn't say sub-high master players can't talk about balance in general. I said they shouldn't blame their losses on balance. Reading comprehension. I don't understand how you say below high master mechanics outweigh balance, which is obviously true and is nothing new, but then say that pro terrans don't look at replays because their poor mechanics make their decision making and tactics irrelevant? Wouldn't it be the complete opposite? Also, why bother even bringing up that low level players have bad mechanics as if you brilliantly realized it and are enlightening everyone with your discovery. Everyone knows this. And why is weird that he would think you could be talking about Code S players when the post before that you said "pro terrans"? And you're mid masters, how are you trying to use number of games and bonus pool to try to manipulate that?
He is trying to imply that he is in actuality pro, despite not playing much ladder. Trying to compensate for his low amount of ladder points.
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On June 23 2012 00:54 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:47 Sroobz wrote:On June 23 2012 00:47 Cyro wrote:
1 month isnt enough. Give it 3, maybe 6.
Go back and look at the 1-1-1 TvP domination era, that seemed a lot more "completely broken and the game must be patched or the matchup will end" than current ZvT to me. There IS room for adaptation, it is not like an 8-15 minute push is crushing you regardless of how you play or what you do, even if you know exactly what is coming before the game starts /Immortal change. Wasn't just some magical time when P adapted ROFL Sorry double post :/ You really think, of all things, buffing immortal range from 5 to 6 made anything other than a small difference?
Yes. It made a massive difference against 1-1-1. Immortals outrange Marines, etc.
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On June 23 2012 00:54 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:47 Sroobz wrote:On June 23 2012 00:47 Cyro wrote:
1 month isnt enough. Give it 3, maybe 6.
Go back and look at the 1-1-1 TvP domination era, that seemed a lot more "completely broken and the game must be patched or the matchup will end" than current ZvT to me. There IS room for adaptation, it is not like an 8-15 minute push is crushing you regardless of how you play or what you do, even if you know exactly what is coming before the game starts /Immortal change. Wasn't just some magical time when P adapted ROFL Sorry double post :/ You really think, of all things, buffing immortal range from 5 to 6 made anything other than a small difference?
WAHT!? is this even a question? Yes. It fixed the problem LOL
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On June 23 2012 00:54 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:47 Sroobz wrote:On June 23 2012 00:47 Cyro wrote:
1 month isnt enough. Give it 3, maybe 6.
Go back and look at the 1-1-1 TvP domination era, that seemed a lot more "completely broken and the game must be patched or the matchup will end" than current ZvT to me. There IS room for adaptation, it is not like an 8-15 minute push is crushing you regardless of how you play or what you do, even if you know exactly what is coming before the game starts /Immortal change. Wasn't just some magical time when P adapted ROFL Sorry double post :/ You really think, of all things, buffing immortal range from 5 to 6 made anything other than a small difference?
Actually, it's kind of the same thing as the queen buff. Immortals were barely used ever before the buff and then people started to experiment with them because of the buff. Wasn't the biggest of the deal but since the players tried to utilize the unit as much as possible instead they started to use it in a much more efficient way. Revert the buff and people will still use it way more than before the buff because they have started using strategies that involves the unit a lot more. Immortal allins were almost nonexistant prior the buff
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On June 23 2012 00:49 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:41 ZeromuS wrote:On June 23 2012 00:34 TRaFFiC wrote:
I would just like to say it's hilariously stupid when non-terran players say terran players need to stop doing helion openings. There is a reason helion opening have been the go to build for more than a year. They give you warnings against a multitude of all ins and are the only real way to counter roach/bane or bane busts. Try holdings those with marines in a bunker. Only marine king can do that :D More bunkers, and more depots :D Protoss relies on gates to block, make barracks to block The scary thing is watching shit blow up, once the banelings are dead you are good to go. I think non terrans feel that Terran has had the same builds for a very very very long time with little variation on how to get there or when to go for a particular composition. For us non-Terrans, we have gone through different stylistic periods and while a composition might seem the same or similar, how we get there and how we deal with things is different. Granted, tech switching for Terran is more difficult than for Zerg, and as far as basic units, its easier for toss to choose stalkers or zealots at different times thanks to WG. However, terran always seems to go rax-expo-fact-hellions-tank-medivac/bio. I dont see hellion drops, I dont see bio -- early third, secure 6 gas into mech. The only time I ever see the bio into mech is from MKP sometimes. Although I think he feels he is better at bio/mech attrition style against Zerg because his micro is so good and he does it more often. The biggest problem MIGHT be fast 3 hatch zerg with many queens. Its already a problem in PvZ to a certain extent where you need either a really good 2 base all in, or a really fast 3rd to hold. It might also be in creep spread TvZ since Terrans never make mobile detection. The most worrisome thing is how fast Zerg can get an econ up and how much they can make off of their 3 base in terms of roach or ling bling or how fast they can tech to hive. The super quick econ from 3 hatch, 4th hatch (macro) with inject means so many units can come out O.O Spot on. There are still many things that can be tried in tvz. As you said, a protoss style low ground wall is a good start. Teran does not have the capacity for a 2 base timing after a fast expand as they dont have warpgate. But on the plus side terran has better units for holing an early third (marauders), since zerg wont have the larva to max on lings at the <13 minute mark, so it should just force a longer game.
In what planet have you guys been living to not see the depot/bunker/rax wall all terrans make at their natural..
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only zerg qualified for HSCV yet... and losira is on a tear atm (granted he is awesome)
i don't want Terran to be bullied out of my favorite tournaments! its not like there is one TSL after another, same for HSC...
if terran needs GSL like condition to create the perfect minduck allin / ecocheese / proxyrax mix to throw the opponent off, then something is very very wrong... i mean sting showed that having a variety of cheese helps alot, but that is just carelessness on the opponents side =(
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On June 23 2012 00:54 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:47 Sroobz wrote:On June 23 2012 00:47 Cyro wrote:
1 month isnt enough. Give it 3, maybe 6.
Go back and look at the 1-1-1 TvP domination era, that seemed a lot more "completely broken and the game must be patched or the matchup will end" than current ZvT to me. There IS room for adaptation, it is not like an 8-15 minute push is crushing you regardless of how you play or what you do, even if you know exactly what is coming before the game starts /Immortal change. Wasn't just some magical time when P adapted ROFL Sorry double post :/ You really think, of all things, buffing immortal range from 5 to 6 made anything other than a small difference?
Yep, you actually don't get hit by marines anymore, and when the shield is off, you can easily pull immortals back, not get stuck in front of stalkers like before anymore.
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EPT
