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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:58 Doodsmack wrote: As I said in my post, my argument doesn't apply to high masters. According to your logic, if marine damage gets trippled, the win rates only shift in high masters and above? | ||
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GeNeSiDe
United Kingdom354 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:01 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote: Jesus christ are terran players still buthurt? Just because its harder to stop creepspread? Before then patch you could contain a Z with 4 helions and at the same time take a third. Get real, learn new builds or drop down to Diamond where you seem to belong. It's not the creepspread I care about as I wipe that off the map with mym timing attack. It's the freedom for Z to power their economy risk-free. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:01 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote: Jesus christ are terran players still buthurt? Just because its harder to stop creepspread? Before then patch you could contain a Z with 4 helions and at the same time take a third. Get real, learn new builds or drop down to Diamond where you seem to belong. Perhaps you should watch some more high profile tournaments before you come in here with your trash comments. I bet its you that is holding a grudge against terrans for being so good for so long and now you're just being judgmental and blinded by your own bias. If a zerg was letting 4 hellions contain him he was just bad, period and he deserved to lose. Lets leave low level discussions out of this. From what I've seen most of us are arguing about balance at the highest levels pro level balance, which is the only thing that really matters. No one is dumb enough to come here and complain he lost against zerg on the ladder when he was floating 1k+ resources, getting supply blocked and losing units randomly left and right. | ||
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DrPhilOfdOOm
Sweden353 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:04 GeNeSiDe wrote: It's not the creepspread I care about as I wipe that off the map with mym timing attack. It's the freedom for Z to power their economy risk-free. Dude open up standard helion expand, but keep making helions and hide all but 4 in your main. When you have 10+ go straight to Z. Gratz on a free win. "risk free economy" doesn't exist. Ts are just not good at punishing Zs yet. They dont understand timings. 10 helions will come at the same time as Z is powering drones to 3rd. mb even faster. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:55 CakeSauc3 wrote: Regardless of whether or not you're high masters, Zerg still benefits from the buffs. And believe it or not, all players get matched up to players who are at a similar level of play. So balance does affect gameplay even at a lower level, and even as early as high platinum are players smart enough to take advantage of these buffs that they've received. Some of us aren't out to become the best player in the world - we just enjoy playing the game, but patches like these ruin it for us. Thanks for calling the majority of Starcraft 2 players unintelligent, have a nice day. You didn't address my point. At skill levels lower than high master, an improvement in mechanics far outweighs game balance. If you're platinum then you're doing so many things wrong that balance is just one small factor in your games. I am mid master and when I play against diamond or below zergs and tosses, I crush them with mass marine 98% of the time. Why can't you do the same? Because your mechanics are FUCKING TERRIBLE. Yesterday I beat a mid master toss with mass marine on daybreak. I opened triple orbital, and powered up marines and Protoss did not have sufficient skill level to defend all 3 of his bases. Balance did not factor in at all. There's a reason why pro Terrans don't bother analyze replays of warm up games that were losses. The poor mechanics dictate that the decision making and tactics were mostly irrelevant. | ||
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Sc2Null
United States3754 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:51 GeNeSiDe wrote: EXACTLY!!! It used to be, you denied the third while macroing hard for a strong timing push at the third base, which you either had to kill or do tons of damage. However, because of your deny you could generally hit a 3-4 tank timing push right as the 3rd popped, and the power was in the Zerg's hands to 1. scout and 2. respond appropriately. The problem now is that because Z is pretty much 3 hatch every game without concern for your helions, your timing attack is arriving way after the 3rd base has paid for itself, so if your doing a 2 base timing, your going to be outproduced. Also with the increased ovie speed, Z knows exactly what type of pressure your aiming for... The best way to resolve this IMO? Blizz, take away the range, give the queens 50 starting energy, bump their cost to 200. That way, queens are more resilient to early-mid game shenanigans, allow for a simultaneous inject/creepspread in the beginning, and will be more micro-dependant(tranfuse will be key), but making it so that queens arent QUITE so easily massable. I usually don't comment in sc2circlejerks but this post is just so ....non-logical. Giving queens 50 energy would just revert tvz back to its previous state with 4 helions having map control for like 10minutes and do you know how making queens 200mins would affect ZvZ..Look at all 3 matches before suggesting a change. A "balanced" balance change has to not disrupt the others matchups to an extreme degree. The queen change did affect all mu's but equally affected all matchups. Terran needs to stop relying on 2-base timing/all-ins and learn to play a macro game. MVP is one of the best ZvT'ers in the world and im pretty sure he gets a third base everyday( no counting cheesing). | ||
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AdmrlAwesome
Germany37 Posts
To date i assume everyone to know how much of a microrewarding race terran is. Its in that regard the by far most rewarding race in Sc2. But as with the aspect of rewarding good micro comes the risk to lose the game within the blink of an eye when failing at it. Terrans have obviously the most flexible openings of all races, but if you dont want to all in on a strat of which you dont know if it will succeed you have to prepare a transition in case the push didnt work out. This mechanic makes it very complex to play a good game in every gamestage, imho more complex than it is for the other two races, but im still ok with this cause there is the chance of a good reward for a risky strat, be i some quick cloaked banshee, be it helions, that also somehow cut in your macro early on, or be it some sort of dropplay. The problem is, that all patches i encountered since playing sc2 have took a bit from the reward that terrrans get for good play, yet the complex macromechanics stay the same. Months ago the same bansheebuild i do from time to time wouldve killed 10 drones, now its 3-4 cause the emergencyobserver builds quicker. Months ago helions could do very great damage when driven in the base unexpected, now they get way fewer shots off till they evaporate. Months ago a quick medvacdrop could deal monstrous amounts of damage, now the medvac gets focused, remainder of marines easy picked up. I very disapprove with the way possible rewards get cutted out that were implemented earlier to make up for the in comparison harder mechanics. If they cut terrans damagedealing option cause they feel they are too hard to defend, they should make macroing easier (somehow less apm-heavy i.e.) in compensation or it turns into terran players having to play with 20 APM more than their skillwise equal opponent, just to stay on same footing. In that regard, the queenbuff was imo not only unneccessary but also bad for overall gamebalance, cause its a onesided fixation of a nonexistent problem. Options get fewer, stakes stay the same and i fell it just came to a point where the metagame hits the wall.. just my personal terran whine.. but maybe with a bit truth in it  | ||
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ntssauce
Germany750 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:09 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote: Dude open up standard helion expand, but keep making helions and hide all but 4 in your main. When you have 10+ go straight to Z. Gratz on a free win. "risk free economy" doesn't exist. Ts are just not good at punishing Zs yet. They dont understand timings. 10 helions will come at the same time as Z is powering drones to 3rd. mb even faster. if you fail because he smartly blocked his chocke: Behind in tech, AND economy , gg out | ||
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:09 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote: Dude open up standard helion expand, but keep making helions and hide all but 4 in your main. When you have 10+ go straight to Z. Gratz on a free win. "risk free economy" doesn't exist. Ts are just not good at punishing Zs yet. They dont understand timings. 10 helions will come at the same time as Z is powering drones to 3rd. mb even faster. We just saw an attack just like in the TSL fail, the zerg held with queens + lings and banes in the choke. Yes he sacrificed a lot lings and banes to slow the terran down, but the damn 6 queens chipped away at the hellions until they died. How about you stop posting out of ignorance, for every stupid strategy you suggest there is probably someone here who can mention a game where the zerg not only held, but gained an almost insurmountable advantage after said attack failed. Your mass hellion attack doesn't even take into account the possibility of a roach or bling bust. In which case you just outright die, maybe you can hold the bane bust, but you will lose all SCVs at the nat and get delayed, and scouted, but you will die from the roach bust. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:09 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote: Dude open up standard helion expand, but keep making helions and hide all but 4 in your main. When you have 10+ go straight to Z. Gratz on a free win. "risk free economy" doesn't exist. Ts are just not good at punishing Zs yet. They dont understand timings. 10 helions will come at the same time as Z is powering drones to 3rd. mb even faster. Christ kid, get real, go back to bronze in this mystical fairy land of yours. Anyway, we just saw Slayers (famous for its Terrans) lose to zerg 4 times and not send out a single Terran. I think something is wrong. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:09 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote: Dude open up standard helion expand, but keep making helions and hide all but 4 in your main. When you have 10+ go straight to Z. Gratz on a free win. "risk free economy" doesn't exist. Ts are just not good at punishing Zs yet. They dont understand timings. 10 helions will come at the same time as Z is powering drones to 3rd. mb even faster. What's the difference between this and Zerg keeping making roaches and hide all but 2 in the front and go in terran base with 10+ roach and totally deny the natural? Seriously what's wrong with that strat? What does Zerg do all the time when Terran making hellions? Nothing but droning. 10 hellions strat is a build specifically designed to kill drones and economy, if zerg keep droning and expand their economy without doing anything, then that build works as intended (of course it should, otherwise no one uses that build). There's a big timing window that you can send ovie in and see what's Terran up to. That strat is so easy to recognize because when you send ovie to check normal timing for banshee or expansion, you'll see it easily, either the whole hellion army in the base or the reactor factory still pumping units. You need to play in Terran perspective and you'll see it's not that easy to pull off that stuff. If Zerg walls off at natural and hold the ramp at base like they're supposed to, 10 hellions don't really do that much damage. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On June 22 2012 21:44 submarine wrote: There are a lot of those "small" errors that cost games. Thats not something "zerg exclusive". As someone that plays both zerg and terran at diamond level i have to say that i lose far more games to dumb shit as terran. Just to name a few: "money fungles", bane mines, fail splits, stupid move commands, deselection crap,delayed depot raise, late siege, "not looking at the army at that one second", random rebinds and the list goes on^^. I do not see how anyone could justify the queen change with that. I just wanted to talk about this because a lot of peole try to act like its the same for all races, and well... It's not... Zerg loses games to shit like early banshee rushes because he built 4 queens and 4 spores. Yeah, that's right, I saw the banshees coming, built the counter to your expensive, slow tech, and lost anyway! I've lost to marine allins because I build too many banelings. Again, see a move coming, build the counter, lose anyway. Void Rays in ZvP, Banelings in ZvZ, and pretty much any early attack in ZvT. All of these can go through the situation where Zerg does the right move, one aspect of the fight doesn't go in Zergs favor, and he loses instantly. It's not that he got set slightly behind, no, 15 marines charge into your Nat and clean you up, rallying more troops, he piles onto your main and the game ends, gg. T and P can have similar issues where they lose a few extra units and might be set behind, MAYBE they have a few instances where it costs them the whole game right there, but EVERY early attack vs Zerg has a huge potential to end the whole game outright. That's what both of these changes are trying to fix, and that's why they're good moves for the health for the game, regardless of whatever momentary imbalances result. Anything that helps Zerg see what's coming better, and react with a generalist unit that can benefit Zerg after the initial fight and allow for an ulterior benefit like the queen does, is a positive thing for the broad viability of the Zerg race as a whole. This isn't to say that the Terran complain in general isn't worthwhile, its been one of he most consistent complaints since release, and I've been waiting for Blizzard to address the issue but they seem to be going the wrong way. Ghosts needed a slight nerf, but them essentially replacing marines in the endgame made a lot of sense, instead of trying to pick a reasonable number for a snipe tweak, they slam the nerf hammer down and remove the viability of the unit as a whole. That seems to be a perfect opportunity missed. TLDR: Terran has issues too, but this Zerg change is a good thing for the health of the game. The proper complaint shouldn't be that Zerg is getting retarded buffs, these actually make a lot of sense. The PROPER complaint should stay focused on "Where's the Terran love?" | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:19 Sroobz wrote: Christ kid, get real, go back to bronze in this mystical fairy land of yours. Anyway, we just saw Slayers (famous for its Terrans) lose to zerg 4 times and not send out a single Terran. I think something is wrong. Not anymore after both Taeja and Ganzi left.Only left MMA,Ryung and Clide left. The races that lost to zerg today is protoss and not terran so i got no idea why you bring that up today. Their terran player aren't as prominent as before. They wasn't sending Ryung cuz he said that he prepared TvZ builds in Code S. Prime has an even stronger terran line-up than them Maru,MKP and Byun. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:19 Sroobz wrote: Christ kid, get real, go back to bronze in this mystical fairy land of yours. Anyway, we just saw Slayers (famous for its Terrans) lose to zerg 4 times and not send out a single Terran. I think something is wrong. Note that this is SlayerS/EG. Their terran lineup includes Clide, MMA, Ryung, Puma and Thorzain. And they didn't think they should use any of them. The current state of Terran vs Zerg is fucking awful and all the recent tourney results suggest this (except Code S frustratingly, if only those terrans would be nice and lose more games then the terran balance complaints would be more credible! I do chuckle inwardly that every KR terran who is quoted talking about how much they hate TvZ is being interviewed after they beat a Zerg in their GSL group). Either we get a massive metagame shift through a set of really good builds and timings, or we get a slew of good maps that favour us a bunch or we get a balance change. Any of those would be really nice really soon please. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:50 Doodsmack wrote: Would love to see the replays of the people crying in this thread. Their minerals probably skyrocket to 2000 when theyre doing things with their army on the map on only 2 bases LOL. Yeah the reason you lost was because of balance, not your horrible mechanics. If you're not high master, then shut the fuck up about balance and get better because at your level, player skill level is far more determinative than balance. Only when both players possess near-optimal mechanics does balance become determinative. It's how Starcraft fucking works, if you don't understand that the sorry but you're unintelligent. I'm not blaming the Queen buff for my lack of skill (I NEVER blame patches for my lack of skill. I blame myself). But what the patch did do was throw away the timings of when I judged my benchmarks. So what do you suggest I do? Go 2-base MM and pray he didn't make banelings? | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:34 FakeDeath wrote: Not anymore after both Taeja and Ganzi left.Only left MMA,Ryung and Clide left. The races that lost to zerg today is protoss and not terran so i got no idea why you bring that up today. Their terran player aren't as prominent as before. They wasn't sending Ryung cuz he said that he prepared TvZ builds in Code S. Prime has an even stronger terran line-up than them Maru,MKP and Byun. ...you honestly see no connection between them not sending out MMA (one of the best TvZer in the history of SC2) after their zergs and protosses lose to zerg again and again and again and again...? This is fucking Slayers... | ||
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GeNeSiDe
United Kingdom354 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:16 Destructicon wrote: We just saw an attack just like in the TSL fail, the zerg held with queens + lings and banes in the choke. Yes he sacrificed a lot lings and banes to slow the terran down, but the damn 6 queens chipped away at the hellions until they died. How about you stop posting out of ignorance, for every stupid strategy you suggest there is probably someone here who can mention a game where the zerg not only held, but gained an almost insurmountable advantage after said attack failed. Your mass hellion attack doesn't even take into account the possibility of a roach or bling bust. In which case you just outright die, maybe you can hold the bane bust, but you will lose all SCVs at the nat and get delayed, and scouted, but you will die from the roach bust. I just played a game where I opened the standard reactor helion. Z did not wall off, eventually made 4 queens, only had 2 when mym first 6 helions dashed into his base...i fried 20 workers and lost 6 helions, delayed his third while having a third of my own, with constant SCV production...guess what the worker count was after I fried 20? I had 31 SCVs, he had 46.... Basically the problem is Z can reach 2 base saturation by 4-5 minutes, because they dont need to invest in anything but 4 queens= 600, and 1 spine= 100...so for 700 minerals Z can power as hard as he wants. | ||
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GeNeSiDe
United Kingdom354 Posts
I dont really lose to T or P anymore because TvZ has killed my MMR to the point I never play anyone who can keep up. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:11 Doodsmack wrote: You didn't address my point. At skill levels lower than high master, an improvement in mechanics far outweighs game balance. If you're platinum then you're doing so many things wrong that balance is just one small factor in your games. I am mid master and when I play against diamond or below zergs and tosses, I crush them with mass marine 98% of the time. Why can't you do the same? Because your mechanics are FUCKING TERRIBLE. Yesterday I beat a mid master toss with mass marine on daybreak. I opened triple orbital, and powered up marines and Protoss did not have sufficient skill level to defend all 3 of his bases. Balance did not factor in at all. There's a reason why pro Terrans don't bother analyze replays of warm up games that were losses. The poor mechanics dictate that the decision making and tactics were mostly irrelevant. I cringe every time I see posts like this, oozing with self - righteousness. I looked you up and you are barely mid master so GTFO talking other people down about terrible mechanics. I guess by your logic, only TBLS can complain about balance. All these code S losers just need to get better. | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On June 22 2012 23:38 Sroobz wrote: ...you honestly see no connection between them not sending out MMA (one of the best TvZer in the history of SC2) after their zergs and protosses lose to zerg again and again and again and again...? This is fucking Slayers... I love MMA but the guy is really slumping. Losing twice to Leenock in Code S pre-patch and losing 0-3 in UnD losing again to BoongBoongPrime after botching an unloseable game and again losing to Sen in Starwars 7. Back in the 2011 days, he would make these look like noobs to him. These are all his recent matches. Seems that he is slumping and the patch also had a huge affect(mentally ) on his play after he mentioned interview at Starwars7.MMA still though has the best TvZ IMO,he is just going through a small slump now. | ||
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