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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Phays
Sweden162 Posts
Well that way we will never get a good balanced game that everyone and for the record, the amount of terrans in master is getting lower all the time. Imo the problem is for terran that bio requiers so much more micro than any other unit comp in the game and it makes games lower than pro level unfavorable for terrans who doesn't have mkp/polt micro. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On June 22 2012 21:10 Phays wrote: It is patetic that people say ''since terran was op earlier its okey if zerg/protoss op now, it will balance it out''. Well that way we will never get a good balanced game that everyone and for the record, the amount of terrans in master is getting lower all the time. Imo the problem is for terran that bio requiers so much more micro than any other unit comp in the game and it makes games lower than pro level unfavorable for terrans who doesn't have mkp/polt micro. They have to balance the game to the highest level. I'm just a shitty zerg player, all that the queen thing has seemed to fix is that Terrans aren't making 8 hellions and trying to run by anymore, and it's a bit easier to spread creep. Hellions are still viable, and terrans still have lots of options for early aggression. I think they just wanted to stop the whole "Terran wins because the Zerg didn't perfectly block his ramp" thing, and I think they have done that mostly. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On June 22 2012 21:12 Zorkmid wrote: They have to balance the game to the highest level. They have to, but they're not. They're making it easier for zergs to defend with queens to the point where you don't need to micro and addin more A-move units in Hots instead of raising the micro potential of all units. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
I would like to see the queens at 3 range and/or a hold fire/target fire only command for tanks and a buff to ghosts and raven. I want my skirmish action packed tvz early game back. I really hate to see TvZ change to a NR11 kind of game. This early skirmish back and forth was great and the queen change kind of killed that. This early skirmishes set the pace for every single game. DRG stood out because he was able to handle this early micro battles very well. The queen change killed this whole aspect of the game. Its just sad. | ||
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Tritanis
Poland344 Posts
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On June 22 2012 21:12 Zorkmid wrote: They have to balance the game to the highest level. I'm just a shitty zerg player, all that the queen thing has seemed to fix is that Terrans aren't making 8 hellions and trying to run by anymore, and it's a bit easier to spread creep. Hellions are still viable, and terrans still have lots of options for early aggression. I think they just wanted to stop the whole "Terran wins because the Zerg didn't perfectly block his ramp" thing, and I think they have done that mostly. You realize, that your first and second paragraph contradict? At the highest level, Zerg fends off the hellion harass easily. If the initial 4-6 hellions get into the main, you cannot really talk about the 'highest level'. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On June 22 2012 21:26 Thrombozyt wrote: You realize, that your first and second paragraph contradict? At the highest level, Zerg fends off the hellion harass easily. If the initial 4-6 hellions get into the main, you cannot really talk about the 'highest level'. There are a lot of those "small" errors that cost games. Thats not something "zerg exclusive". As someone that plays both zerg and terran at diamond level i have to say that i lose far more games to dumb shit as terran. Just to name a few: "money fungles", bane mines, fail splits, stupid move commands, deselection crap,delayed depot raise, late siege, "not looking at the army at that one second", random rebinds and the list goes on^^. I do not see how anyone could justify the queen change with that. Zerg had the tools to deal with hellions before the patch. Something else i find quite amusing: Before the patch, even pro zergs often tried to sneak a drone past the hellion contain to lay down the 3rd. It was denied very often. I have never seen any zerg players that tried to just hide a drone on the map to place down the 3rd. Its not that big of an investment and toss players do it all the time. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On June 22 2012 21:44 submarine wrote: There are a lot of those "small" errors that cost games. Thats not something "zerg exclusive". As someone that plays both zerg and terran at diamond level i have to say that i lose far more games to dumb shit as terran. Just to name a few: "money fungles", bane mines, fail splits, stupid move commands, deselection crap,delayed depot raise, late siege, "not looking at the army at that one second", random rebinds and the list goes on^^. I do not see how anyone could justify the queen change with that. Zerg had the tools to deal with hellions before the patch. Something else i find quite amusing: Before the patch, even pro zergs often tried to sneak a drone past the hellion contain to lay down the 3rd. It was denied very often. I have never seen any zerg players that tried to just hide a drone on the map to place down the 3rd. Its not that big of an investment and toss players do it all the time. I hear what you're saying, but I don't think that there is an early game equivalent in other match-ups to having 6 hellions in your base in ZvT. | ||
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GeNeSiDe
United Kingdom354 Posts
Last season I was 76-32 on EU Top8 Masters, 1.1k points, about the same win% on NA and 1k as well, even beat a few GM player, so I was feeling on top of the world about this game; now I in complete honesty am having a tough time sticking to my Terran roots, which I have been playing since beta, because it is WAY too frustrating to watch shitty players rofl stomp you all day. This season I have been playing diamond level players who i tend to crush if its not TvZ....sallowing at the bottom end of masters league with a 26-40 record, despite me putting in time to learn new strats, watching GSL religiously everyday, playing about 4-5 hours a day. The problem I've been having is that I'm an extremely macro-orientated player, so I like to harass constantly while playing for the late-game...recently the trend is that no harass works against Z unless you play the kind of shit Z's who dont built spines in their bases, and dont split their army/watch their minimap to deny your multidrops. If you die as a Z due to a helion runby, thats your own fucking fault, your clearly a shit player. It was a fair tradeoff; If i go 2 fact reactor helion and you get 2 queens chasing what you think is 4 helions, and then i burn your queens, burn your drones and you ragequit, thats your own fault for being bad. The same way if I dont wall my front, and you run a bunch of speedlings in, kill my production and I ragequit. This game is based on it's fun gamestyle and the sheer unforgiveness that makes even the best players need to stay on edge.Good zergs didnt have a problem, as they would have a spine in time, go 4 queens anyways(because of the prevalence of banshee builds), and slowly edge out their spines/queens or mass produce lings so they could take their 3rd. I dont get how this was imba in any way, the good player wins.... Now suddenly, 4 queens can sit on the edge of the creep, the drone makes the 3rd because helions cant kill it outright, theres no way to punish the Z for not paying attention because he doesn't have to anymore, he can just put his queens there and they will defend perfectly, and you can't out-micro the queens anyways, its like trying to kite marines with marines, its just retarded. Also the spare money that the Z will have goes into defences to shut down any drops/timing attacks. Like everyone else has said, this lets Z play super-fucking-greedy, like no units before 9 minute greedy, while pumping drones and upgrades, but their production mechanic means that the second you move out, they can spawn enough troops to wipe you off the map, and pretty much at this point, you are dead as a terran, again unless your opponent is Leenock-terribad and throws you a bunch of 150gas units for free right as your pushing. To be honest, I could probably live with the queen change if infestors weren't so cost-efficient and ignored upgrades; the fact of the matter is there is no way to kill a ling infestor based army in a straight up confrontation without going pure mech, at which point your not going to be playing ling/infestor anyways, its gonna be roach/infestor/BL or ultra. When your opponent has 10-15 infestors he can fungal even the most well split armies into submission because his cracklings will then rip apart whatever you have; in fact I think its pretty ridiculous that Z can play the same way in all 3 matchups based on the sheer strength of 1 unit. I know people say this about the marine, but this is a SPELLCASTER we are talking about, a spellcaster that cannot be hard-countered; dont evne tell me ghosts, I have tried ghosts, here is what happens.... 1. you cloak ghosts and move up to snipe/emp 2. your opponent uses his eyes, sees cloaked units, and uses his mass fungals to reveal them. 3. You will prevent your army being fungalled all over at the cost of an expensive ass caster; if you EMP'ed you didnt even remove the enemies casters so you have a small windows to do damage or your efforts were worthless. Another big problem now is that because the metagame dictates that a T has to go quick 3 base or else be cleansed asunder by the swarm, it's SO easy for Z to decide "hey im gonna make a bunch of banes/lings/roaches(take your pick really, how do you wanna win), walk up into the terrans nat and pretty much kill him unless he walls off with 6 barracks" dunno, this game is broken, and my motivation to play is way down, LoL and D3 time maybe? | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On June 22 2012 21:26 Thrombozyt wrote: You realize, that your first and second paragraph contradict? At the highest level, Zerg fends off the hellion harass easily. If the initial 4-6 hellions get into the main, you cannot really talk about the 'highest level'. They don't contradict. I was talking about how I've found the patch to be, as a shitty zerg playing against shitty terrans. I just meant that they balance the game with Terrans with high level micro in mind. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:15 Zorkmid wrote: They don't contradict. I was talking about how I've found the patch to be, as a shitty zerg playing against shitty terrans. I just meant that they balance the game with Terrans with high level micro in mind. They do contradict though. With the increased defensive capabilities of Queens and pros finally realizing the importance of creep spread they are working 4-6 Queens into most early game builds. What are these "lots of options for early aggression" you're talking about? Almost all the ones I can think of that come early enough to punish an early 3rd are shut down hard by 6 Queens. Hellions/Banshees/elevator into the main, etc. are all smacked down by decent Queen play. While a Platinum player may still be vulnerable to early game pressure even with a lot of Queens, somebody like Symbol is not. He will defend perfectly with his six Queens, and then macro up to an Infestor/Broodlord composition with there being little to nothing the Terran can do to prevent it or keep up in a long macro game. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:15 Zorkmid wrote: They don't contradict. I was talking about how I've found the patch to be, as a shitty zerg playing against shitty terrans. I just meant that they balance the game with Terrans with high level micro in mind. So if you have high micro ability than other people, you get punished for it? | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:29 canikizu wrote: So if you have high micro ability than other people, you get punished for it? They also balance the game with Zerg and Protoss with high level micro. I thought that part was implied, guess not! | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:14 GeNeSiDe wrote: dunno, this game is broken, and my motivation to play is way down, LoL and D3 time maybe? Unfortunately I feel the same way. I'm a Platinum player, and I like to work hard because I love this game, but all the timings I depended on for my TvZ has effectively been neutered, which is terrible for a low-level player who has been trying to improve his macro. I also have college work and I just don't have the time to relearn an entire match-up. I dunno, I'm just exhausted. Terrans are doing terrible in tournaments, both TL and Bnet forums are theorycrafting hard, and just about every pro terran are cowering in fear against Zergs. I think it's better for me if I just wait it out. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
If you're not high master, then shut the fuck up about balance and get better because at your level, player skill level is far more determinative than balance. Only when both players possess near-optimal mechanics does balance become determinative. It's how Starcraft fucking works, if you don't understand that the sorry but you're unintelligent. | ||
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GeNeSiDe
United Kingdom354 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:40 HeroMystic wrote: Unfortunately I feel the same way. I'm a Platinum player, and I like to work hard because I love this game, but all the timings I depended on for my TvZ has effectively been neutered, which is terrible for a low-level player who has been trying to improve his macro. I also have college work and I just don't have the time to relearn an entire match-up. I dunno, I'm just exhausted. Terrans are doing terrible in tournaments, both TL and Bnet forums are theorycrafting hard, and just about every pro terran are cowering in fear against Zergs. I think it's better for me if I just wait it out. EXACTLY!!! It used to be, you denied the third while macroing hard for a strong timing push at the third base, which you either had to kill or do tons of damage. However, because of your deny you could generally hit a 3-4 tank timing push right as the 3rd popped, and the power was in the Zerg's hands to 1. scout and 2. respond appropriately. The problem now is that because Z is pretty much 3 hatch every game without concern for your helions, your timing attack is arriving way after the 3rd base has paid for itself, so if your doing a 2 base timing, your going to be outproduced. Also with the increased ovie speed, Z knows exactly what type of pressure your aiming for... The best way to resolve this IMO? Blizz, take away the range, give the queens 50 starting energy, bump their cost to 200. That way, queens are more resilient to early-mid game shenanigans, allow for a simultaneous inject/creepspread in the beginning, and will be more micro-dependant(tranfuse will be key), but making it so that queens arent QUITE so easily massable. | ||
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GeNeSiDe
United Kingdom354 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:50 Doodsmack wrote: Would love to see the replays of the people crying in this thread. Their minerals probably skyrocket to 2000 when theyre doing things with their army on the map on only 2 bases LOL. Yeah the reason you lost was because of balance, not your horrible mechanics. If you're not high master, then shut the fuck up about balance and get better because at your level, player skill level is far more determinative than balance. Only when both players possess near-optimal mechanics does balance become determinative. It's how Starcraft fucking works, if you don't understand that the sorry but you're unintelligent. Did you even read my post or any of the other high masters in this thread? | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:50 Doodsmack wrote: Would love to see the replays of the people crying in this thread. Their minerals probably skyrocket to 2000 when theyre doing things with their army on the map on only 2 bases LOL. Yeah the reason you lost was because of balance, not your horrible mechanics. If you're not high master, then shut the fuck up about balance and get better because at your level, player skill level is far more determinative than balance. Only when both players possess near-optimal mechanics does balance become determinative. It's how Starcraft fucking works, if you don't understand that the sorry but you're unintelligent. Regardless of whether or not you're high masters, Zerg still benefits from the buffs. And believe it or not, all players get matched up to players who are at a similar level of play. So balance does affect gameplay even at a lower level, and even as early as high platinum are players smart enough to take advantage of these buffs that they've received. Some of us aren't out to become the best player in the world - we just enjoy playing the game, but patches like these ruin it for us. Thanks for calling the majority of Starcraft 2 players unintelligent, have a nice day. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On June 22 2012 22:52 GeNeSiDe wrote: Did you even read my post or any of the other high masters in this thread? As I said in my post, my argument doesn't apply to high masters. | ||
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DrPhilOfdOOm
Sweden353 Posts
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