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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 27 2012 01:54 archonOOid wrote:
I think it's a great change but it might have been too much of a buff to the queen's range. The problem before the patch was that zerg were very susceptible to certain all-ins and the patch fixed that brilliantly. The question now is whether the fun dynamic in zvt has gone and if terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. The zvt early game is less tense at the moment and i think that terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg.
Is "susceptible to all-ins" somehow a balance problem now? Every race should be susceptible to all-ins from other races, but standard play with good scouting should be safe against them. This is, for instance, currently the case in TvP for the most part; both sides can all-in at different stages of the game, and both can defend if they don't play greedy and scout the attack at a reasonable time. With the Queen buff, can Zerg even lose to Terran all-ins anymore? Why were Terran all-ins a problem before the buff, and doesn't the overlord speed buff fix this?
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I generally steer well clear from threads that will obviously turn into balance whine like this, but after watching some games recently I had some basic (obvious?) thoughts. I play protoss, so the queen change doesn't affect me as much, but the overlord one kind of does. Anyhow:
I don't really know why queen range went from 3 to 5 instead of 3 to 4. All the other range increases (roaches, archons, immortals) have been at 1 range increments. I still think it is too early to know if range 5 is "OP" but I don't know why they didn't try 4 first. Maybe it wasn't enough on internal testing or something, but I'd never trust internal testing for something like this. A 1 range increase can be a massive buff, they know this, but for some reason went with 2 right out of the gate, which seems odd. Plus at 4 range the queen could probably get that cool punching animation back. 
Edit: Removed overlord stuff, as I realized thread was supposed to be only about queens.
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On June 27 2012 02:04 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:53 GeNeSiDe wrote:On June 27 2012 01:42 Horseballs wrote:On June 27 2012 01:17 Chill wrote:
If your post isn't about Queens, don't post. The thing is that the new queen allows for zergs to be able to get what everyone else is complaining about. Before ghosts started getting used Blizzard even let out that they were "looking into infestor broodlord being too strong against terran," as nothing seemed to be working vs lategame zerg. Then people started getting lategame ghosts and had an answer for zerg T3. Then ghosts were nerfed and the order of the day was "don't let the zerg get to that point," and terran players adapted and used hellion openings to stay even with the zerg and hit a midgame timing with the idea of going into the lategame on relatively equal footing. Then the queen was buffed, and there is simply no way short of a ridiculous all in to "not let zerg get to that point." The queen buff made every single aspect of the ZvT matchup better from zerg. Creepspread makes ling/bane better. Early defense means more drones faster, and quicker tech to what terran has had trouble with for a while. To demand we only talk about the queen itself doesn't really make this discussion very helpful. Either we talk about reverting the change (which to me seems like the most reasonable option), in which case then only talking about the queen makes sense. Or we talk about what the problem assuming the change remains in place, in which case every single part of TvZ should be fair game to discuss, as every single part needs scrutinizing. QFT. The queen buff and strong nature of zerg late-game go hand in hand for above reasons. Give queens 50 starting energy but 3 ground range, keep ovie speed, that way zergs aren't helpless and blind, but neither are the terrans. We can sort out infestor/broodlord relationship later. I think queen maybe getting 4 range would be better than getting 50 queen energy. The reasoning for 3 range to 5 range from blizzard was because hellions could deny creep and prevent 3rd for a long time. So reverting back to 3 range would be redundant. The 5 range queen also totally change the metagame of ZvZ. Now all zergs go for 15/15 hatch first and we would see more macro-oriented play. As for 50 queen energy instead of 5 range( meaning only 3 range but have 50 energy), i got no idea about50 energy queen but you get to creep spread immediately and faster i guess? Not really sure about that But i rerember Grubby was saying something that 50 queen energy would rendered stargate play much much weaker in ZvP because of immediate tranfuse you can just build queen to respond to stargate play. Making queen start with 50 energy maybe affect the other match-ups when we only want it to affect only ZvT. So yeah i think 50 starting queen energy is a bad idea.
I think a lot of Zerg players will say that 50 starting energy is too good. There is a reason why blizzard didn't go through with the change.
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On June 27 2012 01:16 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:11 Shiori wrote:
By showing that an untouched Zerg is virtually impossible to deal with, people are trying to show why the aforementioned argument is false. No one has shown this. Stop arguing in absolutes based on nothing at all.
Think about it. Let's suppose that the new Queen change made Zerg literally invulnerable to every conceivable non-blind pressure build. Not say it does, but let's suppose. Then that means that Zerg can basically play single player until, say, 10 minutes into the game. Due to the way that Larva Inject works, Zerg is going to be able to get more workers than any other race in this period of time pretty easily. What's more, expanding actually helps the Zerg production, unlike going, say, 3OC or Gate Nexus Nexus. This means that by the time everyone's economy kicks in, Zerg enjoys a rather healthy lead because they don't have as much production overhead. In a sense, expanding actually helps them to produce more in a very direct sense, and not just in the sense that it allows them to afford more units.
Even supposing that every race is on an even foot in the lategame, the fact that Zerg will out-produce other races in workers snowballs and allows them to get a super-early Hive that can't really be matched tech-wise by anyone else. It's not so much that Zerg's lategame is too strong, in this line of argument (though, personally, I'd argue that in many cases, Zerg's lategame is too strong) but that they can get there more quickly than anyone else if left unpressured.
That, in effect, is the extreme scenario that people are concerned with when it comes to talking about the Queen change. They feel that it is a step in the direction of this passive style of play which doesn't really suit any race except Zerg.
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On June 27 2012 02:04 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:53 GeNeSiDe wrote:On June 27 2012 01:42 Horseballs wrote:On June 27 2012 01:17 Chill wrote:
If your post isn't about Queens, don't post. The thing is that the new queen allows for zergs to be able to get what everyone else is complaining about. Before ghosts started getting used Blizzard even let out that they were "looking into infestor broodlord being too strong against terran," as nothing seemed to be working vs lategame zerg. Then people started getting lategame ghosts and had an answer for zerg T3. Then ghosts were nerfed and the order of the day was "don't let the zerg get to that point," and terran players adapted and used hellion openings to stay even with the zerg and hit a midgame timing with the idea of going into the lategame on relatively equal footing. Then the queen was buffed, and there is simply no way short of a ridiculous all in to "not let zerg get to that point." The queen buff made every single aspect of the ZvT matchup better from zerg. Creepspread makes ling/bane better. Early defense means more drones faster, and quicker tech to what terran has had trouble with for a while. To demand we only talk about the queen itself doesn't really make this discussion very helpful. Either we talk about reverting the change (which to me seems like the most reasonable option), in which case then only talking about the queen makes sense. Or we talk about what the problem assuming the change remains in place, in which case every single part of TvZ should be fair game to discuss, as every single part needs scrutinizing. QFT. The queen buff and strong nature of zerg late-game go hand in hand for above reasons. Give queens 50 starting energy but 3 ground range, keep ovie speed, that way zergs aren't helpless and blind, but neither are the terrans. We can sort out infestor/broodlord relationship later. I think queen maybe getting 4 range would be better than getting 50 queen energy. The reasoning for 3 range to 5 range from blizzard was because hellions could deny creep and prevent 3rd for a long time. So reverting back to 3 range would be redundant. The 5 range queen also totally change the metagame of ZvZ. Now all zergs go for 15/15 hatch first and we would see more macro-oriented play. As for 50 queen energy instead of 5 range( meaning only 3 range but have 50 energy), i got no idea about50 energy queen but you get to creep spread immediately and faster i guess? Not really sure about that But i rerember Grubby was saying something that 50 queen energy would rendered stargate play much much weaker in ZvP because of immediate tranfuse you can just build queen to respond to stargate play. Making queen start with 50 energy maybe affect the other match-ups when we only want it to affect only ZvT. So yeah i think 50 starting queen energy is a bad idea.
Or the queen could start at 50 and transfuse requires 75 energy. It would be a buff to creep and a nerf to transfuse. Maybe the max energy should also be increased.
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On June 27 2012 02:16 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 02:04 FakeDeath wrote:On June 27 2012 01:53 GeNeSiDe wrote:On June 27 2012 01:42 Horseballs wrote:On June 27 2012 01:17 Chill wrote:
If your post isn't about Queens, don't post. The thing is that the new queen allows for zergs to be able to get what everyone else is complaining about. Before ghosts started getting used Blizzard even let out that they were "looking into infestor broodlord being too strong against terran," as nothing seemed to be working vs lategame zerg. Then people started getting lategame ghosts and had an answer for zerg T3. Then ghosts were nerfed and the order of the day was "don't let the zerg get to that point," and terran players adapted and used hellion openings to stay even with the zerg and hit a midgame timing with the idea of going into the lategame on relatively equal footing. Then the queen was buffed, and there is simply no way short of a ridiculous all in to "not let zerg get to that point." The queen buff made every single aspect of the ZvT matchup better from zerg. Creepspread makes ling/bane better. Early defense means more drones faster, and quicker tech to what terran has had trouble with for a while. To demand we only talk about the queen itself doesn't really make this discussion very helpful. Either we talk about reverting the change (which to me seems like the most reasonable option), in which case then only talking about the queen makes sense. Or we talk about what the problem assuming the change remains in place, in which case every single part of TvZ should be fair game to discuss, as every single part needs scrutinizing. QFT. The queen buff and strong nature of zerg late-game go hand in hand for above reasons. Give queens 50 starting energy but 3 ground range, keep ovie speed, that way zergs aren't helpless and blind, but neither are the terrans. We can sort out infestor/broodlord relationship later. I think queen maybe getting 4 range would be better than getting 50 queen energy. The reasoning for 3 range to 5 range from blizzard was because hellions could deny creep and prevent 3rd for a long time. So reverting back to 3 range would be redundant. The 5 range queen also totally change the metagame of ZvZ. Now all zergs go for 15/15 hatch first and we would see more macro-oriented play. As for 50 queen energy instead of 5 range( meaning only 3 range but have 50 energy), i got no idea about50 energy queen but you get to creep spread immediately and faster i guess? Not really sure about that But i rerember Grubby was saying something that 50 queen energy would rendered stargate play much much weaker in ZvP because of immediate tranfuse you can just build queen to respond to stargate play. Making queen start with 50 energy maybe affect the other match-ups when we only want it to affect only ZvT. So yeah i think 50 starting queen energy is a bad idea. Or the queen could start at 50 and transfuse requires 75 energy. It would be a buff to creep and a nerf to transfuse. Maybe the max energy should also be increased.
I don't think creep really needs, or has ever needed, a buff.
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On June 27 2012 02:10 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:54 archonOOid wrote:
I think it's a great change but it might have been too much of a buff to the queen's range. The problem before the patch was that zerg were very susceptible to certain all-ins and the patch fixed that brilliantly. The question now is whether the fun dynamic in zvt has gone and if terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. The zvt early game is less tense at the moment and i think that terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. Is "susceptible to all-ins" somehow a balance problem now? Every race should be susceptible to all-ins from other races, but standard play with good scouting should be safe against them. This is, for instance, currently the case in TvP for the most part; both sides can all-in at different stages of the game, and both can defend if they don't play greedy and scout the attack at a reasonable time. With the Queen buff, can Zerg even lose to Terran all-ins anymore? Why were Terran all-ins a problem before the buff, and doesn't the overlord speed buff fix this?
I can respect the fact that the buff to Queens have taken some of the teeth out of hellions, but I don't think it made zerg immune every all in that terran has. The Queeen did not become some mythical super unit, or it would be giving protoss trouble as well. Queens are still terrible against straight up marines, having nearly 1/3 of the DPS to minerals spent. The upgrade may have messed up the current metagame with the hellion opener and some timings, but it did not make them immune to the threat of all-ins.
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On June 27 2012 01:17 Chill wrote:
If your post isn't about Queens, don't post.
The nature of how queens work now will naturally bleed into other balance whine. You will of course see people start complaining more about "infestors OP" because its now basically a free ride to get them (whilst being as greedy as possible).
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On June 27 2012 02:13 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:16 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 01:11 Shiori wrote:
By showing that an untouched Zerg is virtually impossible to deal with, people are trying to show why the aforementioned argument is false. No one has shown this. Stop arguing in absolutes based on nothing at all. Think about it. Let's suppose that the new Queen change made Zerg literally invulnerable to every conceivable non-blind pressure build. Not say it does, but let's suppose. Then that means that Zerg can basically play single player until, say, 10 minutes into the game. Due to the way that Larva Inject works, Zerg is going to be able to get more workers than any other race in this period of time pretty easily. What's more, expanding actually helps the Zerg production, unlike going, say, 3OC or Gate Nexus Nexus. This means that by the time everyone's economy kicks in, Zerg enjoys a rather healthy lead because they don't have as much production overhead. In a sense, expanding actually helps them to produce more in a very direct sense, and not just in the sense that it allows them to afford more units. Even supposing that every race is on an even foot in the lategame, the fact that Zerg will out-produce other races in workers snowballs and allows them to get a super-early Hive that can't really be matched tech-wise by anyone else. It's not so much that Zerg's lategame is too strong, in this line of argument (though, personally, I'd argue that in many cases, Zerg's lategame is too strong) but that they can get there more quickly than anyone else if left unpressured.That, in effect, is the extreme scenario that people are concerned with when it comes to talking about the Queen change. They feel that it is a step in the direction of this passive style of play which doesn't really suit any race except Zerg.
this is what zerg players have been complaining about for Protoss for a loooong time. with wall-ins and forcefields, a zerg really cant pressure a FFE protoss and is reduced to passive play and making as many drones as possible w/o dieing. i'd say passive play fits protoss rather well since all you need to be on is 3 bases.
i would say that the 5 range queen is definately a bad design because it results in passive play and less pressure options but it isnt necessarily unbalanced. there are many bad design aspects of the other races and just the game in general that this is just another symptom of how sc2 is. maybe this bad design is needed to keep the game balanced i dont know. before the buff, zerg seemed too weak but now zerg seems too safe and play has become more passive/boring. maybe the whole game needs to be redesigned and hopefully HOTS does this.
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On June 27 2012 02:10 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:54 archonOOid wrote:
I think it's a great change but it might have been too much of a buff to the queen's range. The problem before the patch was that zerg were very susceptible to certain all-ins and the patch fixed that brilliantly. The question now is whether the fun dynamic in zvt has gone and if terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. The zvt early game is less tense at the moment and i think that terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. Is "susceptible to all-ins" somehow a balance problem now? Every race should be susceptible to all-ins from other races, but standard play with good scouting should be safe against them. This is, for instance, currently the case in TvP for the most part; both sides can all-in at different stages of the game, and both can defend if they don't play greedy and scout the attack at a reasonable time. With the Queen buff, can Zerg even lose to Terran all-ins anymore? Why were Terran all-ins a problem before the buff, and doesn't the overlord speed buff fix this?
Watch any ZvT game pre-patch. Terrans completely denies the Zerg scouting with a small number of hellions because they can kite all early Zerg units all day long. Zergs didn't have good scouting. People like DRG were just playing a safe modified spanishiwa style against Terrans.
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On June 27 2012 02:33 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 02:13 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2012 01:16 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 01:11 Shiori wrote:
By showing that an untouched Zerg is virtually impossible to deal with, people are trying to show why the aforementioned argument is false. No one has shown this. Stop arguing in absolutes based on nothing at all. Think about it. Let's suppose that the new Queen change made Zerg literally invulnerable to every conceivable non-blind pressure build. Not say it does, but let's suppose. Then that means that Zerg can basically play single player until, say, 10 minutes into the game. Due to the way that Larva Inject works, Zerg is going to be able to get more workers than any other race in this period of time pretty easily. What's more, expanding actually helps the Zerg production, unlike going, say, 3OC or Gate Nexus Nexus. This means that by the time everyone's economy kicks in, Zerg enjoys a rather healthy lead because they don't have as much production overhead. In a sense, expanding actually helps them to produce more in a very direct sense, and not just in the sense that it allows them to afford more units. Even supposing that every race is on an even foot in the lategame, the fact that Zerg will out-produce other races in workers snowballs and allows them to get a super-early Hive that can't really be matched tech-wise by anyone else. It's not so much that Zerg's lategame is too strong, in this line of argument (though, personally, I'd argue that in many cases, Zerg's lategame is too strong) but that they can get there more quickly than anyone else if left unpressured.That, in effect, is the extreme scenario that people are concerned with when it comes to talking about the Queen change. They feel that it is a step in the direction of this passive style of play which doesn't really suit any race except Zerg. this is what zerg players have been complaining about for Protoss for a loooong time. with wall-ins and forcefields, a zerg really cant pressure a FFE protoss and is reduced to passive play and making as many drones as possible w/o dieing. i'd say passive play fits protoss rather well since all you need to be on is 3 bases. i would say that the 5 range queen is definately a bad design because it results in passive play and less pressure options but it isnt necessarily unbalanced. there are many bad design aspects of the other races and just the game in general that this is just another symptom of how sc2 is. maybe this bad design is needed to keep the game balanced i dont know. before the buff, zerg seemed too weak but now zerg seems too safe and play has become more passive/boring. maybe the whole game needs to be redesigned and hopefully HOTS does this.
ZvP was like that. But then Stephano showed us we could build a ton of roaches and flat out kill a lot of things protoss were doing at the time. TvZ may work out the same way. 4 and 6 queen builds have their own vulnerabilities. Terrans will eventually figure out what those are and start exploiting them.
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On June 27 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 02:10 Toadvine wrote:On June 27 2012 01:54 archonOOid wrote:
I think it's a great change but it might have been too much of a buff to the queen's range. The problem before the patch was that zerg were very susceptible to certain all-ins and the patch fixed that brilliantly. The question now is whether the fun dynamic in zvt has gone and if terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. The zvt early game is less tense at the moment and i think that terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. Is "susceptible to all-ins" somehow a balance problem now? Every race should be susceptible to all-ins from other races, but standard play with good scouting should be safe against them. This is, for instance, currently the case in TvP for the most part; both sides can all-in at different stages of the game, and both can defend if they don't play greedy and scout the attack at a reasonable time. With the Queen buff, can Zerg even lose to Terran all-ins anymore? Why were Terran all-ins a problem before the buff, and doesn't the overlord speed buff fix this? I can respect the fact that the buff to Queens have taken some of the teeth out of hellions, but I don't think it made zerg immune every all in that terran has. The Queeen did not become some mythical super unit, or it would be giving protoss trouble as well. Queens are still terrible against straight up marines, having nearly 1/3 of the DPS to minerals spent. The upgrade may have messed up the current metagame with the hellion opener and some timings, but it did not make them immune to the threat of all-ins.
On June 25 2012 16:58 submarine wrote:
To put an end to that stupid "tickle" argument once and for all:
QUEEN:
Attributes Biological, Psionic
Defense HP 175 Armor 1 (+1)
Ground Attack: 4(+1) (x2)
Ground DPS: 8(+2)
Air Attack: 9(+1)
Air DPS: 9(+1)
Range: 5 (ground), 7 (air)
Cooldown: 1 (air and ground)
Sight 9
Speed on Creep 2.5
ROACH:
Attributes Armored, Biological
Defense HP 145 Armor 1 (+1)
Ground Attack: 16(+2)
Ground DPS: 8(+1)
Range: 4
Cooldown: 2
Speed on Creep 2.92 (+0.975)
The queen has no Armor attribute! Thats huge! The queen has same DPS, more range and more health. The only disadvantages of queens compared to roaches as a fighting unit on creep are: They are a little bit slower, the attack is more affected by armor and they are a little big bigger. The last one can sometimes even be a advantage.(hello splash damage)
The range change made queens a very good early game fighting unit. Please stop to repeat this stupid "tickle" BS you heard on SOTG.
Queens are quite good at fighting now, especially with transfuse.
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On June 27 2012 02:34 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 02:10 Toadvine wrote:On June 27 2012 01:54 archonOOid wrote:
I think it's a great change but it might have been too much of a buff to the queen's range. The problem before the patch was that zerg were very susceptible to certain all-ins and the patch fixed that brilliantly. The question now is whether the fun dynamic in zvt has gone and if terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. The zvt early game is less tense at the moment and i think that terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. Is "susceptible to all-ins" somehow a balance problem now? Every race should be susceptible to all-ins from other races, but standard play with good scouting should be safe against them. This is, for instance, currently the case in TvP for the most part; both sides can all-in at different stages of the game, and both can defend if they don't play greedy and scout the attack at a reasonable time. With the Queen buff, can Zerg even lose to Terran all-ins anymore? Why were Terran all-ins a problem before the buff, and doesn't the overlord speed buff fix this? Watch any ZvT game pre-patch. Terrans completely denies the Zerg scouting with a small number of hellions because they can kite all early Zerg units all day long. Zergs didn't have good scouting. People like DRG were just playing a safe modified spanishiwa style against Terrans.
I play Protoss, and after the Queen change, I literally cannot scout Zerg in the early game. The best I can do is figuring out whether they've taken a third base. Beyond that, I need to spend gas on scouting (hallucination, Robo or a Stargate); without that, there's no way for me to know even the most basic info, like their gas timings. Not to speak of possible Spire tech, whether they're getting roach upgrades or a baneling nest, and so forth. So pardon me for being unimpressed with your scouting woes.
In any case, isn't it possible to see stuff with speedier Overlords now? What kind of all-ins are Zergs afraid of anyway? Hellion/Marauder is the only one I recall seeing in high level games.
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I think ovie speed would have done the trick of holding all-ins wihtout the queen range no? I mean on most maps that ovie is over your base before your rax is done, and with added speed, the sac usually sees your entire base. IMO if you cant learn to build a ton of units after scouting an all-in, this isnt the game for you.
To be honest though, the biggest change this has made for me is that I just eco 2rax every game, pressure with marines as long as i can, and go into a 4rax stim timing with a few helions to kill the third base. If zergs would rather get bunker rushed than to have to outmicro helions, fine by me....
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On June 27 2012 02:33 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 02:13 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2012 01:16 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 01:11 Shiori wrote:
By showing that an untouched Zerg is virtually impossible to deal with, people are trying to show why the aforementioned argument is false. No one has shown this. Stop arguing in absolutes based on nothing at all. Think about it. Let's suppose that the new Queen change made Zerg literally invulnerable to every conceivable non-blind pressure build. Not say it does, but let's suppose. Then that means that Zerg can basically play single player until, say, 10 minutes into the game. Due to the way that Larva Inject works, Zerg is going to be able to get more workers than any other race in this period of time pretty easily. What's more, expanding actually helps the Zerg production, unlike going, say, 3OC or Gate Nexus Nexus. This means that by the time everyone's economy kicks in, Zerg enjoys a rather healthy lead because they don't have as much production overhead. In a sense, expanding actually helps them to produce more in a very direct sense, and not just in the sense that it allows them to afford more units. Even supposing that every race is on an even foot in the lategame, the fact that Zerg will out-produce other races in workers snowballs and allows them to get a super-early Hive that can't really be matched tech-wise by anyone else. It's not so much that Zerg's lategame is too strong, in this line of argument (though, personally, I'd argue that in many cases, Zerg's lategame is too strong) but that they can get there more quickly than anyone else if left unpressured.That, in effect, is the extreme scenario that people are concerned with when it comes to talking about the Queen change. They feel that it is a step in the direction of this passive style of play which doesn't really suit any race except Zerg. this is what zerg players have been complaining about for Protoss for a loooong time. with wall-ins and forcefields, a zerg really cant pressure a FFE protoss and is reduced to passive play and making as many drones as possible w/o dieing. i'd say passive play fits protoss rather well since all you need to be on is 3 bases. i would say that the 5 range queen is definately a bad design because it results in passive play and less pressure options but it isnt necessarily unbalanced. there are many bad design aspects of the other races and just the game in general that this is just another symptom of how sc2 is. maybe this bad design is needed to keep the game balanced i dont know. before the buff, zerg seemed too weak but now zerg seems too safe and play has become more passive/boring. maybe the whole game needs to be redesigned and hopefully HOTS does this.
The difference is that Zergs realized that they can just take a fast third and tech to Infestor/BL if the Protoss isn't 2base all-inning. Infestor/BL is extremely powerful against every Protoss composition, so the concerns from a year ago about the Protoss deathball aren't really a problem in PvZ anymore. That's the reason that PvZ has evolved, not the Stephano style.
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All I know is, since the patch I've still had some insanely simple outright wins by just suiciding a few hellions and roasting drones. So I for one think queens are fine.
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Messed around with shield timings a bit more. Realised that it only worked for bomber in his game because the zerg couldn't (or didn't) get creep to his 3rd base in time so he couldn't get his queens on it. The 3rd on whirlwind is a bit further away then other maps so this is a safe bet. If a zerg sees you moving out with his timing and has creeped to his 3rd and is smart enough to keep a transfuse or three safe then he won't lose anything and deflect it with only queens, literally nothing else.
Fuck queens T_T. Stupid unit.
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On June 27 2012 02:46 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2012 02:10 Toadvine wrote:On June 27 2012 01:54 archonOOid wrote:
I think it's a great change but it might have been too much of a buff to the queen's range. The problem before the patch was that zerg were very susceptible to certain all-ins and the patch fixed that brilliantly. The question now is whether the fun dynamic in zvt has gone and if terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. The zvt early game is less tense at the moment and i think that terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. Is "susceptible to all-ins" somehow a balance problem now? Every race should be susceptible to all-ins from other races, but standard play with good scouting should be safe against them. This is, for instance, currently the case in TvP for the most part; both sides can all-in at different stages of the game, and both can defend if they don't play greedy and scout the attack at a reasonable time. With the Queen buff, can Zerg even lose to Terran all-ins anymore? Why were Terran all-ins a problem before the buff, and doesn't the overlord speed buff fix this? I can respect the fact that the buff to Queens have taken some of the teeth out of hellions, but I don't think it made zerg immune every all in that terran has. The Queeen did not become some mythical super unit, or it would be giving protoss trouble as well. Queens are still terrible against straight up marines, having nearly 1/3 of the DPS to minerals spent. The upgrade may have messed up the current metagame with the hellion opener and some timings, but it did not make them immune to the threat of all-ins. Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 16:58 submarine wrote:
To put an end to that stupid "tickle" argument once and for all:
QUEEN:
Attributes Biological, Psionic
Defense HP 175 Armor 1 (+1)
Ground Attack: 4(+1) (x2)
Ground DPS: 8(+2)
Air Attack: 9(+1)
Air DPS: 9(+1)
Range: 5 (ground), 7 (air)
Cooldown: 1 (air and ground)
Sight 9
Speed on Creep 2.5
ROACH:
Attributes Armored, Biological
Defense HP 145 Armor 1 (+1)
Ground Attack: 16(+2)
Ground DPS: 8(+1)
Range: 4
Cooldown: 2
Speed on Creep 2.92 (+0.975)
The queen has no Armor attribute! Thats huge! The queen has same DPS, more range and more health. The only disadvantages of queens compared to roaches as a fighting unit on creep are: They are a little bit slower, the attack is more affected by armor and they are a little big bigger. The last one can sometimes even be a advantage.(hello splash damage)
The range change made queens a very good early game fighting unit. Please stop to repeat this stupid "tickle" BS you heard on SOTG. Queens are quite good at fighting now, especially with transfuse.
Am I allowed to post the stats a marine and say "Marines are better for the cost"? Also, the ticke argument is that the queen does very little damage per hit on hellion, rather than sustained damage over time. Stalkers(with 6 range) have the same issue, since the hellions is so fast and they can only get off one shot before the hellion is on the way to the mineral line.
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If queens had 0 armor (as you'd expect from an early game caster designed to stay at home and maintain the base) then they wouldn't be so incredibly hard to deal with using marines or even hellions.
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The issue for all terrans right now I feel is the way the queen buff has affected the larvae economy of zerg.
My problem with the queen buff is that it has led me to all in almost 100% of my t v z games recently. Immediately post patch my win rate vs zerg plummeted to 10% or less for a period of a few weeks, I play a macro style, and would traditionally do 1 rax fe into hellions or banshees to harass the zerg till i could get up to three base and mech. Harass with small groups of units around the edge of the creep till they had speed, etc.
With the queen buff now, hellions and banshees are not particularly viable options for harassment, not because they can't do damage still (although they do less damage now because queens are great against both) but that they don't force larvae to be used for units to counter the pressure. Even small groups of marines don't force lings or banes if they are faced with 4 queens that have transfuse. This allows the zerg to focus ALL of their money on production/economy and tech, which the increase in queens just magnifies as they are vital production amplifiers. Allows them to get to the late game earlier...yada yada.
I've since shifted my style to a more all in based style and seen my win rate normalize somewhat, probably 30-35% or so against zerg now, but I do feel, a month later that the buff was too much. It forces the terran into a high risk low reward play style I feel, and it's a matter of what the 5 range counters effectively now and how it changes the entirety of the larva economy with good zergs that makes it OP. Terran can still win the match up, but we sort of have to timing attack early instead of harass and macro, and forced timing attacks at hatch and lair tech necessitate an element of risk in Terran play that I don't love. If we get that push wiped, we lose in a few minutes to whatever hive tech they choose to wax us with at 15 min or so.
The creep spread is awful, but it's not as big a deal as the larva imo. It does provide more advance notification of pushes etc, but terrans can keep the creep back still with scans, ravens, etc so that we can take a 4th in a macro game, but the macro vs. macro style is somewhat broken (even with harass, i understand under no model of the mu are we saying leave the zerg completely unmolested).
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EPT
