This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
On June 26 2012 22:55 GeNeSiDe wrote: The great problem is that this symmetry of options means the infestor does every job you could need from a standing army in the most cost-efficient manner, to the point that a Code B no-namer can turn up in GSTL and Code A, smash 3 different races with the same strategy, including one of the better TvZ players out there ATM, when it was clear throughout the Bomber V Freaky that Bomber was the superior player and should be in the ascendency, not fighting teeth and nails to get through.
Smash 3 different races = beating mia, avange and pet, and take a game off bomber (where you can't say bomber played that well). As far as Bomber goes, why is he suddently "one of the better TvZ player out there" ? Look at his TLDP, he hasn't been strong against zerg for a while, as far as TvZ goes he's just an avergage GSL terran...
think you're playing ZvP backwards. It's Protoss that has to do damage to Zerg, and Zerg who have the near unbeatable late game army unless they make a mistake and throw 20 Broodlords into a Vortex. That's why half the PvZs you see are 2 base all-ins by the Protoss.
That's funny. Last major tournament I watched (was MLG maybe? I dunno) every time I saw a Protoss win a macro game it was with a Mothership. Every. Single. Time.
That's the point. The Protoss complaint is that they need to hit a good Vortex to win the late game battle because there is no other counter to Broodlord/Infestor, and that hitting a good Vortex relies on the Zerg making a huge mistake.
This is all off-topic though, so you should make your own thread about it if you want to discuss it. Spoiler: nobody agrees with you.
I'm curious why you go out of your way to be rude with that whole "spoiler nobody agrees with u lolol" even though...the rest of your post you entirely agree with me...rofl. Mothership is OP in late game, but without it Infestor/BL is op, it's not a new concept and it's entirely true, and I'm pretty sure pretty much everyone would agree with me so don't be such a prick maybe. The reason Protoss has to do damage is because Brood/Festor is so strong, and the reason Zerg has to do damage is because the Mothership is also incredibly strong. What a novel concept!
On June 26 2012 21:50 avc wrote: It doesn't surprise me that some truly silly Terran players are already moaning about Infestors in this thread, you'll just end up getting it locked by dragging it off topic. You've already been warned over the whining, drop it already.
If you genuinely believe that the Bomber vs. Freaky game means that Infestors counter everything and are unstoppable then no wonder you're complaining about Queens.
It's not whining, what we saw was the actual result of all this zerg theorycrafting on how to beat zerg late game and it couldn't even win against ONE of the three components it was supposed to be victorious against!
Fortunately we did see some good pure bio timings designed to crush zerg early game so we don't have to play the ludicrous late game TvZ anymore, but still. Come on. That was utterly stupid and proves virtually everything we've been saying about lategame TvZ.
Bomber played it terribly, he should have won game 2 comfortably.
He made many mistakes and refused to build a single Ghosts in the face of an exclusively caster army.
You know if I try to break down a supply depot wall with only lings and they all die to marines, it doesn't mean supply depots are OP, it means I didn't use the right strategy.
Some of you people will whine at literally anything.
I literally do not get how people think ghost is an answer. Show me a replay where ghosts work vs infestors. The only way this works is when your doing a timing push, and your opponent is banking on a minimal number of infestors to make his 2-2 cracklings efficient enough to roll over you, and you get off those money EMP's and roflstomp him.
Vs 30-40 infestors, again....chain fungal..... you can maybe EMP the lead infestors but your losing your ghosts, again the zerg is trading energy for units......it seems very simple to me.
If you want to nerf fungal, so be it, but arguing against spells that do damage encompasses a lot more than just fungal.
How good do you reckon mass HT with no support is? Or mass Sentry? They're pretty awful against pretty much any normal unit composition. Which makes a lot of sense, because they're meant to be support units, and not the core of your army. Mass Ghost was actually pretty decent, which is one of the reasons Ghosts got nerfed. Mass Raven is similarly awful.
Ok, so you just want spellcasters to not be able to be massed. Fine. It's just your last post made a point of saying "again the zerg is trading energy for units" with no qualifier. Guess that was just rhetoric huh?
I wouldn't know, since it wasn't my post.
But yeah, I don't like Infestors because they're such a no-brainer unit - good against everything; and because Fungal shuts down too many strategic options for all the races. Mutas or Phoenix or Banshees shouldn't just instantly become useless the moment Infestors enter the game.
Is TvZ very difficult? A: If both sides play defensively then it's very hard, but terran does have a few strategies to use, so there needs to be further observation. But the queen's range is 5, this is totally unacceptable. If this was changed the there could be a fair fight
On June 26 2012 21:50 avc wrote: It doesn't surprise me that some truly silly Terran players are already moaning about Infestors in this thread, you'll just end up getting it locked by dragging it off topic. You've already been warned over the whining, drop it already.
If you genuinely believe that the Bomber vs. Freaky game means that Infestors counter everything and are unstoppable then no wonder you're complaining about Queens.
It's not whining, what we saw was the actual result of all this zerg theorycrafting on how to beat zerg late game and it couldn't even win against ONE of the three components it was supposed to be victorious against!
Fortunately we did see some good pure bio timings designed to crush zerg early game so we don't have to play the ludicrous late game TvZ anymore, but still. Come on. That was utterly stupid and proves virtually everything we've been saying about lategame TvZ.
Bomber played it terribly, he should have won game 2 comfortably.
He made many mistakes and refused to build a single Ghosts in the face of an exclusively caster army.
You know if I try to break down a supply depot wall with only lings and they all die to marines, it doesn't mean supply depots are OP, it means I didn't use the right strategy.
Some of you people will whine at literally anything.
I literally do not get how people think ghost is an answer. Show me a replay where ghosts work vs infestors. The only way this works is when your doing a timing push, and your opponent is banking on a minimal number of infestors to make his 2-2 cracklings efficient enough to roll over you, and you get off those money EMP's and roflstomp him.
Vs 30-40 infestors, again....chain fungal..... you can maybe EMP the lead infestors but your losing your ghosts, again the zerg is trading energy for units......it seems very simple to me.
If you want to nerf fungal, so be it, but arguing against spells that do damage encompasses a lot more than just fungal.
How good do you reckon mass HT with no support is? Or mass Sentry? They're pretty awful against pretty much any normal unit composition. Which makes a lot of sense, because they're meant to be support units, and not the core of your army. Mass Ghost was actually pretty decent, which is one of the reasons Ghosts got nerfed. Mass Raven is similarly awful.
Ok, so you just want spellcasters to not be able to be massed. Fine. It's just your last post made a point of saying "again the zerg is trading energy for units" with no qualifier. Guess that was just rhetoric huh?
I wouldn't know, since it wasn't my post.
But yeah, I don't like Infestors because they're such a no-brainer unit - good against everything; and because Fungal shuts down too many strategic options for all the races. Mutas or Phoenix or Banshees shouldn't just instantly become useless the moment Infestors enter the game.
To be fair, high templar are good against anything terran has too.
It wasnt that "unbalanced" but it was pretty much a nobrainer, you could contain a Z on 2 base, deny creep, deny map control, get safe against any zergling aggression and could potentially end the game with a runby
So just like how speedlings works in the early/midgame? That does not sound very unfair.
Well, there are some differences between T and Z that make this actually quite different from a speedling contain. Here are a few:
1) Z needs to be ahead in bases to survive. 2 base against 2 base is considered being at an advantage for T.
Wrong wrong wrong: infestor + hive can trade cost efficient with terran, so 3 base vs 3 base is perfectly possible. Please play the game at high masters or above, so you understand it.
Instead of trying to bringing things on a personal, condescending level, why don't you take a moment to elaborate on what you're saying? That way this forum and specifically this thread could be used to improve somebody's understanding of the game, which seems much more constructive. ('sides, you don't really need to be high masters to know that infestors + broods or ultras can be cost efficient vT, but that's another issue)
Specifically, I don't quite get how hive tech and infestors are relevant when discussing the differences between two early-midgame situations (a speedling contain on 2 bases and a hellion contain on 2 bases). Could you elaborate? Saying that Z does fine on hive tech 3b vs 3b doesn't quite imply that it does the same on hatch/lair tech for 2b vs 2b.
Ling infestor isn't hive tech and replaces the muta ling baneling composition, and it works fine against marine tank or any equivalent mech force with some roaches mixed in I guess as needed. The additional benefits of this is that it lets you get upgrades earlier, tech faster, survive on less bases and is a lot easier to control.
Yeah, I'm familiar with infestor/ling. Problem is, unilke infestor + hive (for which I agree that you can be cost-effective), I'm quite skeptical about the cost-effectiveness of infestor+ling, pre patch, against a standard marine/tank/medivac mix.
I don't think that it gets much more standard than this game: reactor hellion opener from T, Z reacts by building a spine at the front and a few queens, delaying the third which starts to get constructed right as T's third OC lands (so: Z is actually behind on bases, and so far there have been no significant mistakes from either player). Z opts for the aforementioned ling+infestor composition, gets attacked by a pre-ultralisk timing push with marine/tank/medivac, pulls a relatively good surround but proceeds to lose the engagement and the game as a result.
Now, I do realize that one game is not conclusive evidence. However, I also claim that having one of the best progamers in the world lose to somebody who then gets kicked out at the RO16 with exactly the composition/gameplan that is supposed to be the only one that is cost-efficient against T before hive tech is at least good evidence that it is hard for Z to be cost efficient enough with it if their third comes that late due to a hellion contain. Which... is exactly my point. The consequences of a hellion contain on two bases are huge, those of a speedling contain on two bases are T laughing at the wasted larvae and getting a freewin.
think you're playing ZvP backwards. It's Protoss that has to do damage to Zerg, and Zerg who have the near unbeatable late game army unless they make a mistake and throw 20 Broodlords into a Vortex. That's why half the PvZs you see are 2 base all-ins by the Protoss.
That's funny. Last major tournament I watched (was MLG maybe? I dunno) every time I saw a Protoss win a macro game it was with a Mothership. Every. Single. Time. Also, the reason Protoss do 2base all-ins nearly every game isn't because they can't win a macro game, it's because 2base all-ins are easier and still incredibly effective.
On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote: PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess.
I find this hillarious because Protoss players have been saying for a long time that they have to do damage vs Zerg because their lategame army is unbeatable without a Mothership.
To a degree that is true as well, but it all depends on how the game plays out. At different points in the game each race has to be doing damage to the other race unless the other person is going for certain tech routes which allow you to completely sit back and defend. Zerg does have good strength in the mid-lateish game, but like, really late game Protoss are stronger for the most part simply due to the Mothership. Although, mass Ultra/Baneling/Infestor seems like it could be a really strong composition and I haven't played with that too much myself since most of my ZvP don't go that late, but idk how it fares yet.
Are you watching the same ZvP matches that I am watching? There are so many maps in the map pool that straight up favor Zerg against Protoss that you see a lot of two base all-ins because of it. Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana (to a degree) tend to push Protoss into 2-base allin mode because of the difficulty in securing a third base (or in Ohana's case the rush distance is kind of short so immortal pushes work well). Also, you know why you see a Mothership in every late game PvZ? Because its the only way Protoss can win.
Secondly, Protoss is NOT stronger in the late game due to the Mothership. When a single spell can make or break you in the deciding factor of the game....that my friend is not strength.
On June 26 2012 21:50 avc wrote: It doesn't surprise me that some truly silly Terran players are already moaning about Infestors in this thread, you'll just end up getting it locked by dragging it off topic. You've already been warned over the whining, drop it already.
If you genuinely believe that the Bomber vs. Freaky game means that Infestors counter everything and are unstoppable then no wonder you're complaining about Queens.
It's not whining, what we saw was the actual result of all this zerg theorycrafting on how to beat zerg late game and it couldn't even win against ONE of the three components it was supposed to be victorious against!
Fortunately we did see some good pure bio timings designed to crush zerg early game so we don't have to play the ludicrous late game TvZ anymore, but still. Come on. That was utterly stupid and proves virtually everything we've been saying about lategame TvZ.
Bomber played it terribly, he should have won game 2 comfortably.
He made many mistakes and refused to build a single Ghosts in the face of an exclusively caster army.
You know if I try to break down a supply depot wall with only lings and they all die to marines, it doesn't mean supply depots are OP, it means I didn't use the right strategy.
Some of you people will whine at literally anything.
I literally do not get how people think ghost is an answer. Show me a replay where ghosts work vs infestors. The only way this works is when your doing a timing push, and your opponent is banking on a minimal number of infestors to make his 2-2 cracklings efficient enough to roll over you, and you get off those money EMP's and roflstomp him.
Vs 30-40 infestors, again....chain fungal..... you can maybe EMP the lead infestors but your losing your ghosts, again the zerg is trading energy for units......it seems very simple to me.
If you want to nerf fungal, so be it, but arguing against spells that do damage encompasses a lot more than just fungal.
How good do you reckon mass HT with no support is? Or mass Sentry? They're pretty awful against pretty much any normal unit composition. Which makes a lot of sense, because they're meant to be support units, and not the core of your army. Mass Ghost was actually pretty decent, which is one of the reasons Ghosts got nerfed. Mass Raven is similarly awful.
Ok, so you just want spellcasters to not be able to be massed. Fine. It's just your last post made a point of saying "again the zerg is trading energy for units" with no qualifier. Guess that was just rhetoric huh?
I wouldn't know, since it wasn't my post.
But yeah, I don't like Infestors because they're such a no-brainer unit - good against everything; and because Fungal shuts down too many strategic options for all the races. Mutas or Phoenix or Banshees shouldn't just instantly become useless the moment Infestors enter the game.
To be fair, high templar are good against anything terran has too.
That makes 2 casters we hate playing against.
They're not good against Tanks, and wouldn't be good against Thors or BCs if Blizzard finally got off their asses and made massive units immune to feedback. Also, High Templar are much less robust than Infestors and can be microed around in many situations. They're a "good to have a few in your army" unit, which is what casters should be. I actually think HT would be the best example of a well-conceived caster unit, if not for the fact that so many Terran units have energy for no good reason.
The difference between HT and infestor is that HT cant burrow and are slow as hell, and also the micro factor of avoiding storm/ getting out of it is much different. TBH I think if fungal damage remained the same but the stun was reduced to 50% movement speed or something of that sort it would be ok.
On the bright side, I won my first late-game TvZ in about 3 weeks, here's the rep, BC transitions FTW, cheers bomber. http://drop.sc/208272
I wonder what the effect off changing the cost of fungal to 100 energy would result in. Immediate ability to storm after warp in got amulet taken out because it was too powerful, and I'd love to see them tinker with this concept.
Part of the problem many terrans seem to be having is that their bio composition in the late game can't close out games (or even leads) because infestors can rally in and fungal bio units easily to shut down the left over units in a terran push.
If infestors had to wait a while before fungaling, much like protoss must wait and attack/defend around the 25 energy they need to amass on their HTs, I wonder if that would effect the late game enough to cause a difference.
I recognize the queen effects the early game, but it seems the real problem is rooted in the ability to win engagements when terrans fight with maxed armies- which is where the problem is most evident imo. In addition, I really don't think that would have too much of an effect on ZvP.
edit; I don't think the problem is actually in the Queen buff, but rather terrans ability to punish zergs that utilize multiple queens to rush to late game compositions- which terrans are having tons of trouble with
Righr now Terrans seem a bit lost on what to do, but it's still too early to make any determination about the queesn buff. Give it time. It's too early to say Terrans have no other recourse as well. All those smart Terrans in Korea are working hard to solve the problem. My guess is they figure something out.
think you're playing ZvP backwards. It's Protoss that has to do damage to Zerg, and Zerg who have the near unbeatable late game army unless they make a mistake and throw 20 Broodlords into a Vortex. That's why half the PvZs you see are 2 base all-ins by the Protoss.
That's funny. Last major tournament I watched (was MLG maybe? I dunno) every time I saw a Protoss win a macro game it was with a Mothership. Every. Single. Time. Also, the reason Protoss do 2base all-ins nearly every game isn't because they can't win a macro game, it's because 2base all-ins are easier and still incredibly effective.
On June 26 2012 22:54 HeroMystic wrote:
On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote: PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess.
I find this hillarious because Protoss players have been saying for a long time that they have to do damage vs Zerg because their lategame army is unbeatable without a Mothership.
To a degree that is true as well, but it all depends on how the game plays out. At different points in the game each race has to be doing damage to the other race unless the other person is going for certain tech routes which allow you to completely sit back and defend. Zerg does have good strength in the mid-lateish game, but like, really late game Protoss are stronger for the most part simply due to the Mothership. Although, mass Ultra/Baneling/Infestor seems like it could be a really strong composition and I haven't played with that too much myself since most of my ZvP don't go that late, but idk how it fares yet.
Are you watching the same ZvP matches that I am watching? There are so many maps in the map pool that straight up favor Zerg against Protoss that you see a lot of two base all-ins because of it. Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana (to a degree) tend to push Protoss into 2-base allin mode because of the difficulty in securing a third base (or in Ohana's case the rush distance is kind of short so immortal pushes work well). Also, you know why you see a Mothership in every late game PvZ? Because its the only way Protoss can win.
Secondly, Protoss is NOT stronger in the late game due to the Mothership. When a single spell can make or break you in the deciding factor of the game....that my friend is not strength.
PS: How many Ultralisks have you seen in PvZ?
Quite a bit and especially how Symbol rolled over Parting with Ultras+Banes+ Infestor Support twice in Code S Round of 32.
On June 27 2012 00:38 Assirra wrote: So this went from queen to now just plain old zerg whine thread. Sigh...
Standard.
Thread should have been closed 100 pages ago. I understand that they may have kept it around to keep the whiners attention here, but every thread has pretty much devolved to this so there is really no point in keeping the thread open...
On June 27 2012 00:59 Doodsmack wrote: Lol @ Bomber owning everyone in this thread who complained that mass infestor is OP after watching his game vs freaky. Maybe smarten up a bit before vomiting out sweeping balance complaints in response to pro games.
Yeah I thought that was funny too. Thread: INFESTORS OP! He didn't make ghosts because they suck! Bomber: I lost because I didn't make ghosts.
Lol @ Bomber owning everyone in this thread who complained that mass infestor is OP after watching his game vs freaky. Maybe smarten up a bit before vomiting out sweeping balance complaints in response to pro games.
On June 27 2012 00:38 Assirra wrote: So this went from queen to now just plain old zerg whine thread. Sigh...
Standard.
Thread should have been closed 100 pages ago. I understand that they may have kept it around to keep the whiners attention here, but every thread has pretty much devolved to this so there is really no point in keeping the thread open...
Why is there always someone saying a thread should be closed? Zerg is stupid right now of course people are going to complain in a thread asking if the last buffs were too much? What are you expecting exactly. No one is forcing you to read it.
On June 27 2012 00:38 Assirra wrote: So this went from queen to now just plain old zerg whine thread. Sigh...
Standard.
Thread should have been closed 100 pages ago. I understand that they may have kept it around to keep the whiners attention here, but every thread has pretty much devolved to this so there is really no point in keeping the thread open...
Why is there always someone saying a thread should be closed? Zerg is stupid right now of course people are going to complain in a thread asking if the last buffs were too much? What are you expecting exactly. No one is forcing you to read it.
We are supposed to discussed whether or not Queen is strong in ZvT. But now it just devolves into a series of whining and complaining without any legit based discussion and now even going into mass infestors is OP which is ridiculous. I have seen a couple of guys posting some sensible legit post on the current state of queen in ZvT but mostly people are just whining about the current balance of ZvT.
EPT
