EPTI mean, a very few actually make an effort in their posts with abit of reasoning and logic to it but most of it is just trash T.T
1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
I mean, a very few actually make an effort in their posts with abit of reasoning and logic to it but most of it is just trash T.T | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
 Although I do want to see + Show Spoiler + 3-3 BCs in action. Bomber vs Freaky or more than just that one? | ||
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Thrillz
4313 Posts
On June 26 2012 21:38 Reaps wrote: + Show Spoiler + So bomber wins with mech making every terran to go through this GSL. Even taking out zergs like monster. Of course won't stop the whining in this thread though  Well duh..Bomber, Jjakji..etc were the players that were pretty favored to win... | ||
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Asukurra
United Kingdom50 Posts
On June 26 2012 21:46 GeNeSiDe wrote: Open my spoiler tag where I disprove your "theory" and you'll understand why I want to QQ right now. Installing WC3FT as we speak, since I know everyone is gonna do Freaky style on ladder now. [spoiler]basically, bomber first went for HSM to kill the infestors off, but only managed to get 1 multi-kill, got his ravens fungalled out of HSM range, they died. Then he build up 3-3 BC viking off 5 base vs a 5 base zerg going mass festors , trading his MM forces to free supply/kill festors/bases. Finally, when he had like 12 BCS, 3-4 ravens and some supporting stuff, he rolled through Freaky's entire map position,killing off 5 bases including his main/tech. Freaky setup a expansion in the bottom right, and send his infestors out to spam fungal/IT on the BC's and to slow them down...it worked, eventually he neuralled the last 3-4 BCs, pulled them over a swarm of IT, and focused them down. At this point bomber had 3 mining bases vs freaky's 1 hatch with no tech. However Freaky slowly choked out bomber by fungalling SCV's/mules, dropping IT's everywhere. Bomber rebuild huge MM forces but everytime he attacked the zergs position, the fungals/IT stopped him dead. He tried to go back to ravens, those got owned too. Finally Bomber was just out of options because 30-40 infestors meant he litertally could just mass spellcast to defend and to choke out Bomber. And again, GHOSTS GET OWNS BY INFESTORS. FUNGAL REVEALS. YOU TRADE FUNGAL ENERGY FOR ACTUAL UNITS WHICH IS THE PROBLEM WITH FESTORS, THEY CAN TRADE TOO COST EFFICIENTLY VS EVERYTHING! If he went into 1 base and all that jazz, tanks is the solution, sounds like Bomber had a army of some description and Freaky had only festors, tank contain the last base and put some Turrets down for detection to stop burrow 'spawn army' and wait him out, problem solved? i mis understood i thought Freaky had just a very festor heavy army, didnt realise it was a last base thing with only festors left | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
On June 26 2012 21:56 Dalavita wrote: For a second I thought I was in the live report thread. Don't spoil the GSL for me guys. I haven't had time to watch it yet Although I do want to see + Show Spoiler + 3-3 BCs in action. Bomber vs Freaky or more than just that one? 3-3 BCs. Game 2. Game 1 was good to watch for old fashioned Bomber style macro. Game 3 if you want to restore your faith in humanity. | ||
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avc
121 Posts
On June 26 2012 21:54 Evangelist wrote: It's not whining, what we saw was the actual result of all this zerg theorycrafting on how to beat zerg late game and it couldn't even win against ONE of the three components it was supposed to be victorious against! Fortunately we did see some good pure bio timings designed to crush zerg early game so we don't have to play the ludicrous late game TvZ anymore, but still. Come on. That was utterly stupid and proves virtually everything we've been saying about lategame TvZ. Bomber played it terribly, he should have won game 2 comfortably. He made many mistakes and refused to build a single Ghosts in the face of an exclusively caster army. You know if I try to break down a supply depot wall with only lings and they all die to marines, it doesn't mean supply depots are OP, it means I didn't use the right strategy. Some of you people will whine at literally anything. | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On June 26 2012 21:54 Toadvine wrote: And Infestors basically counter any and all air play in every matchup (save for Broodlords, and maybe, kinda, Carriers). How is that any better for the game than what Ghosts used to do? Massing spellcasters should not be any good, period. I understand that the Infestor is kind of a midgame crutch for the Zerg race, so that they can survive to Hive tech in decent shape, but this is simply not good design, and makes for crappy gameplay. Stop fungal from hitting air and buff traditional Zerg anti-air options in HotS, imo. Well, they'll need to nerf something anyway. since current Infestors combined with all the new stuff Zerg gets in HotS will definitely not make for a balanced game. For the record, I mostly ladder as Protoss, and a bit as Zerg, so I don't have any stake in the TvZ feud. Firstly,Freaky is known for ONLY GOING MASS INFESTORs. Bomber should have won that game but he bungled that. Freaky will finally realize that mass infestor is not the way to go and make other units other than the infestor. Mass infestor without support sucks.Period. Stop fungal from hitting air?Blizzard done that before. Guess what? ZvZ became broken because there was nothing to stop muta play. Wow we haven't even reached the beta yet and we have people bitching about the balance in HotS./facepalm | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [From LR Thread] + On June 26 2012 21:15 HeroMystic wrote: I should also say those Ravens weren't cost-efficient at all. We've all been saying Ravens are terrible lategame, and Freaky showed why (splitting units). Maybe this'll get everyone to shut up about Ravens being the savior of Terran lategame. That said, I do agree Bomber should've made Ghosts. They're a far better unit vs Infestors. But that doesn't excuse the fact that Zerg can make 40+ Infestors and counter everything in the game. At that point not even Ghosts would've saved Bomber. | ||
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GeNeSiDe
United Kingdom354 Posts
On June 26 2012 21:59 avc wrote: Bomber played it terribly, he should have won game 2 comfortably. He made many mistakes and refused to build a single Ghosts in the face of an exclusively caster army. You know if I try to break down a supply depot wall with only lings and they all die to marines, it doesn't mean supply depots are OP, it means I didn't use the right strategy. Some of you people will whine at literally anything. I literally do not get how people think ghost is an answer. Show me a replay where ghosts work vs infestors. The only way this works is when your doing a timing push, and your opponent is banking on a minimal number of infestors to make his 2-2 cracklings efficient enough to roll over you, and you get off those money EMP's and roflstomp him. Vs 30-40 infestors, again....chain fungal..... you can maybe EMP the lead infestors but your losing your ghosts, again the zerg is trading energy for units......it seems very simple to me. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
This also doesn't take into account the need for pitch perfect micro to make it work, basically have all ghosts spread so only one gets fungaled at a time, the need to snipe overseers effectively, and the need to avoid all the infested terrans. Whoever things just "mass ghosts and win" is kidding himself, even if you mass ghosts its still all comes down to control. The best thing I think Bomber could have done in that situation is mass siege tanks, surround Freaky's base from all angles, position ravens evenly for detection so nothing can go out, position vikings as well, then mine out the map and crush Freaky by slow pushing with tanks. The problem is, he'd have needed at least 10 tanks to start up that kind of position given how many infestors Freaky already had. | ||
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avc
121 Posts
On June 26 2012 22:03 GeNeSiDe wrote: I literally do not get how people think ghost is an answer. Show me a replay where ghosts work vs infestors. The only way this works is when your doing a timing push, and your opponent is banking on a minimal number of infestors to make his 2-2 cracklings efficient enough to roll over you, and you get off those money EMP's and roflstomp him. Vs 30-40 infestors, again....chain fungal..... you can maybe EMP the lead infestors but your losing your ghosts, again the zerg is trading energy for units......it seems very simple to me. He didn't magically have 30-40 Infestors instantly. When Bomber pushed with his BC's Freaky had around 15. He was rapidly building more, but why wouldn't he, he's known for that style and there was no other option available to him. He couldn't go air, his air units were poorly upgraded and there were a bunch of Raven's flying around. Had Bomber thrown in some Ghosts with his BC push, he'd have dramatically reduced the effectiveness of the Infestors. Some of you seem to act like no unit is worth building unless it completely dominates and kills everything it's supposed to counter. Sometimes the threat of a unit is enough to change the dynamic of a game, particularly a caster unit. Ghosts being present means Overseers have to be used, this is an additional gas tax on the Zerg and is another unit they have to babysit and bring with their army. It also means you now have to split your Infestors and be much more vigilant for a sneaky Ghost walking around ready to deploy an Emp. None of us are saying Ghosts will automatically kill 30 Infestors instantly, we're saying they are a great anti caster unit, this is basically their main role in the game and they should be used. To completely ignore them when faced with a mass of caster units is very silly indeed. As for people trying to use that silly game as justification for Ravens being useless late game. Bomber used them incredibly badly. He forgot an upgrade, he bunched them up repeatedly (despite knowing the opponent has mass Infestor), he pushed forward with them bunched up on half (and less) hp instead of repairing them and during the Ling/Baneling push he deployed far too many Auto Turrets which ended up just being a waste of important energy. The mere fact there were so many Ravens on the map completely deterred Freaky from going for Corruptors to counter the Battlecruisers. It also pushed him well away from going for Broodlords as well, which meant he was essentially only going to be building Infestors. SC2 is about more than just building the counter to Unit A and a-moving it to victory. Oh and I didn't even mention the incredible potential for Nukes in a late game situation like that against Zerg. | ||
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Thrillz
4313 Posts
And no, other races need to stop telling Terran to use Ravens. There are so many reasons why Ravens at the moment are not prevalent that have been explained a million times. They are just not worth it and difficult to pull off. | ||
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drumsolo86
Singapore7 Posts
The ghost can render the infestor useless or dead in 1-on-1 situation. Even in PvTs, ghosts in numbers have proven to be really powerful and standing up to High Templars which can take out ghosts or render them useless in a mass situation, before you say ghosts themselves on their own cannot handle mass infestors, please think carefully. The situation is like avc said. Infestors are best fought with ghosts, but not many people do that, does that mean it cant work? No. On top of that, Bomber didn't build 1 single ghost at all (really surprising when he was trying out all the new strats in the book, 3/3 Bcs and sky-terran builds). Furthermore, Bomber is the few Terrans I really support. Back on track to the topic started, enough infestor shenanigans please. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On June 26 2012 22:01 FakeDeath wrote: Firstly,Freaky is known for ONLY GOING MASS INFESTORs. Bomber should have won that game but he bungled that. Freaky will finally realize that mass infestor is not the way to go and make other units other than the infestor. Mass infestor without support sucks.Period. Stop fungal from hitting air?Blizzard done that before. Guess what? ZvZ became broken because there was nothing to stop muta play. Wow we haven't even reached the beta yet and we have people bitching about the balance in HotS./facepalm Sigh, even if I specifically say I'm not asking for balance changes, but for a redesign of some things in HotS, I still get these DON'T NERF ME BRO" replies. Is it really impossible to consider the good of the entire game, as opposed to lashing out because there's a remote possibility that you may lose some ladder points while adjusting to a different playstyle? If it were up to me, Forcefield, Fungal, Concussive Shell, Colossi, Warpgates, and a bunch of other stuff would also get the boot. I just think it's more plausible to change Fungal and make it up in other areas, than to touch stuff like FF which would require a total redesign of the Protoss race. | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On June 26 2012 21:06 Snowbear wrote: Wrong wrong wrong: infestor + hive can trade cost efficient with terran, so 3 base vs 3 base is perfectly possible. Please play the game at high masters or above, so you understand it. Instead of trying to bringing things on a personal, condescending level, why don't you take a moment to elaborate on what you're saying? That way this forum and specifically this thread could be used to improve somebody's understanding of the game, which seems much more constructive. ('sides, you don't really need to be high masters to know that infestors + broods or ultras can be cost efficient vT, but that's another issue) Specifically, I don't quite get how hive tech and infestors are relevant when discussing the differences between two early-midgame situations (a speedling contain on 2 bases and a hellion contain on 2 bases). Could you elaborate? Saying that Z does fine on hive tech 3b vs 3b doesn't quite imply that it does the same on hatch/lair tech for 2b vs 2b. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
Less Qq plzkthxbi | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
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