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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 27 2012 01:01 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 00:58 Dosey wrote:On June 27 2012 00:38 Assirra wrote:
So this went from queen to now just plain old zerg whine thread.
Sigh... Standard. Thread should have been closed 100 pages ago. I understand that they may have kept it around to keep the whiners attention here, but every thread has pretty much devolved to this so there is really no point in keeping the thread open... Why is there always someone saying a thread should be closed? Zerg is stupid right now of course people are going to complain in a thread asking if the last buffs were too much? What are you expecting exactly. No one is forcing you to read it.
We expect more from postings on TL. If we wanted constant balance whine we'd visit the Bnet forums more often. Also most of the comments have nothing to do with the queen buff but are rather gripes about zerg in general.
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On June 27 2012 01:01 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 00:58 Dosey wrote:On June 27 2012 00:38 Assirra wrote:
So this went from queen to now just plain old zerg whine thread.
Sigh... Standard. Thread should have been closed 100 pages ago. I understand that they may have kept it around to keep the whiners attention here, but every thread has pretty much devolved to this so there is really no point in keeping the thread open... Why is there always someone saying a thread should be closed? Zerg is stupid right now of course people are going to complain in a thread asking if the last buffs were too much? What are you expecting exactly. No one is forcing you to read it.
Too bad about every zerg being knocked into code B last night.
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On June 27 2012 00:49 Durp wrote:
I wonder what the effect off changing the cost of fungal to 100 energy would result in. Immediate ability to storm after warp in got amulet taken out because it was too powerful, and I'd love to see them tinker with this concept.
Part of the problem many terrans seem to be having is that their bio composition in the late game can't close out games (or even leads) because infestors can rally in and fungal bio units easily to shut down the left over units in a terran push.
If infestors had to wait a while before fungaling, much like protoss must wait and attack/defend around the 25 energy they need to amass on their HTs, I wonder if that would effect the late game enough to cause a difference.
This mechanism is already in place. Z must already spend 100/150 per infestor 50 seconds (plus travel time) before they want to throw a fungal. P must wait 5 seconds for warp-in, plus 40 seconds for the energy.
Not that you couldn't lengthen the time, mind. Let's see the likely results.
30 seconds after the pit ends, you can start infestor production to have the +25 energy from pathogen; 50 seconds to complete, then 40 to gain another 25 energy would mean getting the first fungal 120 seconds after infestation pit completion.
This seems too large of a time window, so it would expose Z to timing attacks; likely, they'd need to fill the gap with large amounts of banelings. This would definitely slow down a transition to hive tech. Nothing too dramatic in the current state of TvZ (though if T does figure out another standard opener, and I still firmly believe that the solution revolves around not tossing units at a wall of queens, things might change).
It wouldn't stop there, though, as it would be a huge nerf to the re-usability of infestors. Considering that they are casters without a secondary role (can't morph into archons, can't attack directly), this would risk turning them into sort-of-banelings. Not sure I'd be thrilled about this. Removing pathogen glands would probably be better.
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On June 27 2012 01:01 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 00:58 Dosey wrote:On June 27 2012 00:38 Assirra wrote:
So this went from queen to now just plain old zerg whine thread.
Sigh... Standard. Thread should have been closed 100 pages ago. I understand that they may have kept it around to keep the whiners attention here, but every thread has pretty much devolved to this so there is really no point in keeping the thread open... Why is there always someone saying a thread should be closed? Zerg is stupid right now of course people are going to complain in a thread asking if the last buffs were too much? What are you expecting exactly. No one is forcing you to read it.
All four zergs, including monster who is (was) on fire right now, just got eliminated from code A last night. It looks like terran is perfectly capable of winning against high level players.
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On June 27 2012 01:07 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:01 Neurosis wrote:On June 27 2012 00:58 Dosey wrote:On June 27 2012 00:38 Assirra wrote:
So this went from queen to now just plain old zerg whine thread.
Sigh... Standard. Thread should have been closed 100 pages ago. I understand that they may have kept it around to keep the whiners attention here, but every thread has pretty much devolved to this so there is really no point in keeping the thread open... Why is there always someone saying a thread should be closed? Zerg is stupid right now of course people are going to complain in a thread asking if the last buffs were too much? What are you expecting exactly. No one is forcing you to read it. We expect more from postings on TL. If we wanted constant balance whine we'd visit the Bnet forums more often. Also most of the comments have nothing to do with the queen buff but are rather gripes about zerg in general.
The reason people are talking about general Zerg problems is because there are Zerg players claiming that the Queen buff is necessary to get Zerg into a macro game, and that the other races don't really need to do damage to be on even footing. By showing that an untouched Zerg is virtually impossible to deal with, people are trying to show why the aforementioned argument is false.
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On June 26 2012 23:44 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 22:31 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:29 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 21:06 Snowbear wrote:On June 26 2012 19:57 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 19:03 moki wrote:On June 26 2012 18:28 Protosnake wrote:
It wasnt that "unbalanced" but it was pretty much a nobrainer, you could contain a Z on 2 base, deny creep, deny map control, get safe against any zergling aggression and could potentially end the game with a runby
So just like how speedlings works in the early/midgame? That does not sound very unfair. Well, there are some differences between T and Z that make this actually quite different from a speedling contain. Here are a few: 1) Z needs to be ahead in bases to survive. 2 base against 2 base is considered being at an advantage for T. Wrong wrong wrong: infestor + hive can trade cost efficient with terran, so 3 base vs 3 base is perfectly possible. Please play the game at high masters or above, so you understand it. Instead of trying to bringing things on a personal, condescending level, why don't you take a moment to elaborate on what you're saying? That way this forum and specifically this thread could be used to improve somebody's understanding of the game, which seems much more constructive. ('sides, you don't really need to be high masters to know that infestors + broods or ultras can be cost efficient vT, but that's another issue) Specifically, I don't quite get how hive tech and infestors are relevant when discussing the differences between two early-midgame situations (a speedling contain on 2 bases and a hellion contain on 2 bases). Could you elaborate? Saying that Z does fine on hive tech 3b vs 3b doesn't quite imply that it does the same on hatch/lair tech for 2b vs 2b. Ling infestor isn't hive tech and replaces the muta ling baneling composition, and it works fine against marine tank or any equivalent mech force with some roaches mixed in I guess as needed. The additional benefits of this is that it lets you get upgrades earlier, tech faster, survive on less bases and is a lot easier to control. Yeah, I'm familiar with infestor/ling. Problem is, unilke infestor + hive (for which I agree that you can be cost-effective), I'm quite skeptical about the cost-effectiveness of infestor+ling, pre patch, against a standard marine/tank/medivac mix. Specifically, refer to  DRG vs  TheStC, first game of season 2 of the 2012 GSL, RO32. Here's a link, it doesn't require a pass: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67112I don't think that it gets much more standard than this game: reactor hellion opener from T, Z reacts by building a spine at the front and a few queens, delaying the third which starts to get constructed right as T's third OC lands (so: Z is actually behind on bases, and so far there have been no significant mistakes from either player). Z opts for the aforementioned ling+infestor composition, gets attacked by a pre-ultralisk timing push with marine/tank/medivac, pulls a relatively good surround but proceeds to lose the engagement and the game as a result. Now, I do realize that one game is not conclusive evidence. However, I also claim that having one of the best progamers in the world lose to somebody who then gets kicked out at the RO16 with exactly the composition/gameplan that is supposed to be the only one that is cost-efficient against T before hive tech is at least good evidence that it is hard for Z to be cost efficient enough with it if their third comes that late due to a hellion contain. Which... is exactly my point. The consequences of a hellion contain on two bases are huge, those of a speedling contain on two bases are T laughing at the wasted larvae and getting a freewin.
It didn't work for DRG because going infestor off 2 bases is just not good. The reason the majority of Zergs went mutas was because it wasn't as gas intensive and it allowed for harass/denial of a landed third from Terran while Zerg secures their own third. Infestor ling is so good now because 6 gases can be acquired easily and 3 bases can be droned quickly, so there is no gas starve waiting for your third base and there is no tech transition out of mutas. You can just go straight to hive. The difference of infestor ling pre patch and post patch is due to the easy 3rd base. Of course DRG would be behind this game, he doesn't counteract the map control of the hellions with the mapcontrol and harass of mutas. Mutas were what allowed Zergs to make up for early lost map control.
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On June 27 2012 01:07 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:01 Neurosis wrote:On June 27 2012 00:58 Dosey wrote:On June 27 2012 00:38 Assirra wrote:
So this went from queen to now just plain old zerg whine thread.
Sigh... Standard. Thread should have been closed 100 pages ago. I understand that they may have kept it around to keep the whiners attention here, but every thread has pretty much devolved to this so there is really no point in keeping the thread open... Why is there always someone saying a thread should be closed? Zerg is stupid right now of course people are going to complain in a thread asking if the last buffs were too much? What are you expecting exactly. No one is forcing you to read it. We expect more from postings on TL. If we wanted constant balance whine we'd visit the Bnet forums more often. Also most of the comments have nothing to do with the queen buff but are rather gripes about zerg in general.
My favorite recent tidbit to this thread was about 6 pages ago, someone asked "How did zergs feel about the matchup pre-patch? Because I personally loved it because I had map control, denied creep, and could do anything I wanted while also threatening to crush you with a 2 base timing!" Of course it was rhetorical, I'm assuming, because someone replied exactly how every Zerg felt (paraphrasing - "Helpless & Blind") and it was completely ignored as the balance whine continued. Then Freakys infestors were brought up and the discussion devolved even further.
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On June 27 2012 01:11 Shiori wrote:
By showing that an untouched Zerg is virtually impossible to deal with, people are trying to show why the aforementioned argument is false.
No one has shown this. Stop arguing in absolutes based on nothing at all.
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Calgary25981 Posts
If your post isn't about Queens, don't post.
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On June 27 2012 01:07 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:01 Neurosis wrote:On June 27 2012 00:58 Dosey wrote:On June 27 2012 00:38 Assirra wrote:
So this went from queen to now just plain old zerg whine thread.
Sigh... Standard. Thread should have been closed 100 pages ago. I understand that they may have kept it around to keep the whiners attention here, but every thread has pretty much devolved to this so there is really no point in keeping the thread open... Why is there always someone saying a thread should be closed? Zerg is stupid right now of course people are going to complain in a thread asking if the last buffs were too much? What are you expecting exactly. No one is forcing you to read it. Too bad about every zerg being knocked into code B last night.
Kind of throws a wrench into the idea that the Terran from Code S who are now in Code A were only there cause of their race. If you think players like MMA, Bomber, and Jjakji did not honestly deserve to advance over their zerg counter-parts; then there are bigger problems than balance afoot. It honestly looks like there are more talented terran than any other race at the moment. I don't foresee Terran winning Code S any time soon because of imbalance being such a big deal when skill levels of players are much closer. We shall see, but when 7 terran get into the Ro16; there is a bigger reasoning for certain groups having impossible situations where a terran could not help but advance due to numbers and weak play from one player. If you watched the final group of Code S; Taeja and Ryung looked like the dominant players, while Leenock looked just terrible.
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On June 27 2012 01:21 SnowFox2ne1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:07 the`postman wrote:On June 27 2012 01:01 Neurosis wrote:On June 27 2012 00:58 Dosey wrote:On June 27 2012 00:38 Assirra wrote:
So this went from queen to now just plain old zerg whine thread.
Sigh... Standard. Thread should have been closed 100 pages ago. I understand that they may have kept it around to keep the whiners attention here, but every thread has pretty much devolved to this so there is really no point in keeping the thread open... Why is there always someone saying a thread should be closed? Zerg is stupid right now of course people are going to complain in a thread asking if the last buffs were too much? What are you expecting exactly. No one is forcing you to read it. Too bad about every zerg being knocked into code B last night. Kind of throws a wrench into the idea that the Terran from Code S who are now in Code A were only there cause of their race. If you think players like MMA, Bomber, and Jjakji did not honestly deserve to advance over their zerg counter-parts; then there are bigger problems than balance afoot. It honestly looks like there are more talented terran than any other race at the moment. I don't foresee Terran winning Code S any time soon because of imbalance being such a big deal when skill levels of players are much closer. We shall see, but when 7 terran get into the Ro16; there is a bigger reasoning for certain groups having impossible situations where a terran could not help but advance due to numbers and weak play from one player. If you watched the final group of Code S; Taeja and Ryung looked like the dominant players, while Leenock looked just terrible.
A terran literally won code S last season... I'm glad we are back to the part of the balance discussion where all Terran are just better players than everyone else, although you'd think with Zerg being so overpowered in ZvT they'd be able to beat these better players.
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Diamond Terran here,
The thing I don't like about SC2 is how counter-build, counter-comp specific the game is. In the recent interview some BW pros they all said something along the lines of "units and builds counter each other more than in BW, which makes it hard to have comebacks". I like to see changes that introduce more standard, safe builds.
While the queen range counters a lot of what the Terran can do early game, I think this is good as it exposes the weaknesses of Terran in the late game, which will hopefully be addressed; either through patches or evolution of game play.
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On June 27 2012 01:17 Chill wrote:
If your post isn't about Queens, don't post.
The thing is that the new queen allows for zergs to be able to get what everyone else is complaining about. Before ghosts started getting used Blizzard even let out that they were "looking into infestor broodlord being too strong against terran," as nothing seemed to be working vs lategame zerg. Then people started getting lategame ghosts and had an answer for zerg T3. Then ghosts were nerfed and the order of the day was "don't let the zerg get to that point," and terran players adapted and used hellion openings to stay even with the zerg and hit a midgame timing with the idea of going into the lategame on relatively equal footing. Then the queen was buffed, and there is simply no way short of a ridiculous all in to "not let zerg get to that point."
The queen buff made every single aspect of the ZvT matchup better from zerg. Creepspread makes ling/bane better. Early defense means more drones faster, and quicker tech to what terran has had trouble with for a while. To demand we only talk about the queen itself doesn't really make this discussion very helpful. Either we talk about reverting the change (which to me seems like the most reasonable option), in which case then only talking about the queen makes sense. Or we talk about what the problem assuming the change remains in place, in which case every single part of TvZ should be fair game to discuss, as every single part needs scrutinizing.
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diamond random here
the main reason i don't like the queen buff in tvz is that it completely kills reaper openings from the matchup (and i liked to tinker around with them quite a bit)
it kinda kills the "every action requires an appropriate reaction" which should be what winning in a strategy game is about
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Calgary25981 Posts
On June 27 2012 01:42 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:17 Chill wrote:
If your post isn't about Queens, don't post. The thing is that the new queen allows for zergs to be able to get what everyone else is complaining about. Before ghosts started getting used Blizzard even let out that they were "looking into infestor broodlord being too strong against terran," as nothing seemed to be working vs lategame zerg. Then people started getting lategame ghosts and had an answer for zerg T3. Then ghosts were nerfed and the order of the day was "don't let the zerg get to that point," and terran players adapted and used hellion openings to stay even with the zerg and hit a midgame timing with the idea of going into the lategame on relatively equal footing. Then the queen was buffed, and there is simply no way short of a ridiculous all in to "not let zerg get to that point." The queen buff made every single aspect of the ZvT matchup better from zerg. Creepspread makes ling/bane better. Early defense means more drones faster, and quicker tech to what terran has had trouble with for a while. To demand we only talk about the queen itself doesn't really make this discussion very helpful. Either we talk about reverting the change (which to me seems like the most reasonable option), in which case then only talking about the queen makes sense. Or we talk about what the problem assuming the change remains in place, in which case every single part of TvZ should be fair game to discuss, as every single part needs scrutinizing.
That's fair. Just make sure you reference that in your post please.
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On June 27 2012 01:42 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:17 Chill wrote:
If your post isn't about Queens, don't post. The thing is that the new queen allows for zergs to be able to get what everyone else is complaining about. Before ghosts started getting used Blizzard even let out that they were "looking into infestor broodlord being too strong against terran," as nothing seemed to be working vs lategame zerg. Then people started getting lategame ghosts and had an answer for zerg T3. Then ghosts were nerfed and the order of the day was "don't let the zerg get to that point," and terran players adapted and used hellion openings to stay even with the zerg and hit a midgame timing with the idea of going into the lategame on relatively equal footing. Then the queen was buffed, and there is simply no way short of a ridiculous all in to "not let zerg get to that point." The queen buff made every single aspect of the ZvT matchup better from zerg. Creepspread makes ling/bane better. Early defense means more drones faster, and quicker tech to what terran has had trouble with for a while. To demand we only talk about the queen itself doesn't really make this discussion very helpful. Either we talk about reverting the change (which to me seems like the most reasonable option), in which case then only talking about the queen makes sense. Or we talk about what the problem assuming the change remains in place, in which case every single part of TvZ should be fair game to discuss, as every single part needs scrutinizing.
QFT. The queen buff and strong nature of zerg late-game go hand in hand for above reasons. Give queens 50 starting energy but 3 ground range, keep ovie speed, that way zergs aren't helpless and blind, but neither are the terrans. We can sort out infestor/broodlord relationship later.
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I think it's a great change but it might have been too much of a buff to the queen's range. The problem before the patch was that zerg were very susceptible to certain all-ins and the patch fixed that brilliantly. The question now is whether the fun dynamic in zvt has gone and if terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. The zvt early game is less tense at the moment and i think that terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg.
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On June 27 2012 01:53 GeNeSiDe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:42 Horseballs wrote:On June 27 2012 01:17 Chill wrote:
If your post isn't about Queens, don't post. The thing is that the new queen allows for zergs to be able to get what everyone else is complaining about. Before ghosts started getting used Blizzard even let out that they were "looking into infestor broodlord being too strong against terran," as nothing seemed to be working vs lategame zerg. Then people started getting lategame ghosts and had an answer for zerg T3. Then ghosts were nerfed and the order of the day was "don't let the zerg get to that point," and terran players adapted and used hellion openings to stay even with the zerg and hit a midgame timing with the idea of going into the lategame on relatively equal footing. Then the queen was buffed, and there is simply no way short of a ridiculous all in to "not let zerg get to that point." The queen buff made every single aspect of the ZvT matchup better from zerg. Creepspread makes ling/bane better. Early defense means more drones faster, and quicker tech to what terran has had trouble with for a while. To demand we only talk about the queen itself doesn't really make this discussion very helpful. Either we talk about reverting the change (which to me seems like the most reasonable option), in which case then only talking about the queen makes sense. Or we talk about what the problem assuming the change remains in place, in which case every single part of TvZ should be fair game to discuss, as every single part needs scrutinizing. QFT. The queen buff and strong nature of zerg late-game go hand in hand for above reasons. Give queens 50 starting energy but 3 ground range, keep ovie speed, that way zergs aren't helpless and blind, but neither are the terrans. We can sort out infestor/broodlord relationship later.
I think queen maybe getting 4 range would be better than getting 50 queen energy.
The reasoning for 3 range to 5 range from blizzard was because hellions could deny creep and prevent 3rd for a long time.
So reverting back to 3 range would be redundant.
The 5 range queen also totally change the metagame of ZvZ. Now all zergs go for 15/15 hatch first and we would see more macro-oriented play.
As for 50 queen energy instead of 5 range( meaning only 3 range but have 50 energy), i got no idea about50 energy queen but you get to creep spread immediately and faster i guess? Not really sure about that
But i rerember Grubby was saying something that 50 queen energy would rendered stargate play much much weaker in ZvP because of immediate tranfuse you can just build queen to respond to stargate play.
Making queen start with 50 energy maybe affect the other match-ups when we only want it to affect only ZvT.
So yeah i think 50 starting queen energy is a bad idea.
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I don't really think the queen buff was necessary. Competent Zerg players were able to deal with hellion harass effectively enough with three range on their queens; five range simply allows Zerg players to build nothing besides queens to hold off effectively all forms of harass (marines/hellions/banshees). Given that the Overlord speed buff was granted to help Zerg scout what kind of harass/gameplay the Terran is doing in the first place, giving Zerg a catch-all solution to Terran harass seems a bit overkill.
As for the discussion of pros/Code S/A/etc.; it's very hard to say whether or not Terran players held dominance because of imbalances or whether or not they were simply the better players at the time. I'd like to think that currently the metagame simply favors Zerg (as opposed to favoring Terran a few seasons back), because the strategies players are using simply tend to result in Zerg wins. Hopefully Terran will find something out soon.
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I don't think 1 month is enough to tell anything. Right now everyone is too emotional.
You have players who have been playing a race that has had at least a slight in-built advantage against the other two races right from the game's release two years ago up until 2 months ago. It's like raising your child on candy and then all of a sudden asking them to add in some vegetables. It's not gonna be pretty at first.
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