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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 27 2012 02:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 02:46 submarine wrote:On June 27 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2012 02:10 Toadvine wrote:On June 27 2012 01:54 archonOOid wrote:
I think it's a great change but it might have been too much of a buff to the queen's range. The problem before the patch was that zerg were very susceptible to certain all-ins and the patch fixed that brilliantly. The question now is whether the fun dynamic in zvt has gone and if terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. The zvt early game is less tense at the moment and i think that terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. Is "susceptible to all-ins" somehow a balance problem now? Every race should be susceptible to all-ins from other races, but standard play with good scouting should be safe against them. This is, for instance, currently the case in TvP for the most part; both sides can all-in at different stages of the game, and both can defend if they don't play greedy and scout the attack at a reasonable time. With the Queen buff, can Zerg even lose to Terran all-ins anymore? Why were Terran all-ins a problem before the buff, and doesn't the overlord speed buff fix this? I can respect the fact that the buff to Queens have taken some of the teeth out of hellions, but I don't think it made zerg immune every all in that terran has. The Queeen did not become some mythical super unit, or it would be giving protoss trouble as well. Queens are still terrible against straight up marines, having nearly 1/3 of the DPS to minerals spent. The upgrade may have messed up the current metagame with the hellion opener and some timings, but it did not make them immune to the threat of all-ins. On June 25 2012 16:58 submarine wrote:
To put an end to that stupid "tickle" argument once and for all:
QUEEN:
Attributes Biological, Psionic
Defense HP 175 Armor 1 (+1)
Ground Attack: 4(+1) (x2)
Ground DPS: 8(+2)
Air Attack: 9(+1)
Air DPS: 9(+1)
Range: 5 (ground), 7 (air)
Cooldown: 1 (air and ground)
Sight 9
Speed on Creep 2.5
ROACH:
Attributes Armored, Biological
Defense HP 145 Armor 1 (+1)
Ground Attack: 16(+2)
Ground DPS: 8(+1)
Range: 4
Cooldown: 2
Speed on Creep 2.92 (+0.975)
The queen has no Armor attribute! Thats huge! The queen has same DPS, more range and more health. The only disadvantages of queens compared to roaches as a fighting unit on creep are: They are a little bit slower, the attack is more affected by armor and they are a little big bigger. The last one can sometimes even be a advantage.(hello splash damage)
The range change made queens a very good early game fighting unit. Please stop to repeat this stupid "tickle" BS you heard on SOTG. Queens are quite good at fighting now, especially with transfuse. Am I allowed to post the stats a marine and say "Marines are better for the cost"? Also, the ticke argument is that the queen does very little damage per hit on hellion, rather than sustained damage over time. Stalkers(with 6 range) have the same issue, since the hellions is so fast and they can only get off one shot before the hellion is on the way to the mineral line.
Stalkers are more expensive than Queens and don't function as a macro mechanic. They're a sunk cost, plus Protoss players very rarely have 6 of them by the time Hellions would be out. Queens also do more DPS than Stalkers and are Psionic.
Hellions only need to be tickled to die when they're denying creep.
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WOW, this thread is still going. Queens are OP but not 120 page thread OP. People should spend more time playing the game and figuring out new builds opposed to complaining on this thread.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 27 2012 03:06 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
WOW, this thread is still going. Queens are OP but not 120 page thread OP. People should spend more time playing the game and figuring out new builds opposed to complaining on this thread.
If only people would actualy listen to this, the terrans in code A did.
Agree 100%
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Talking about the queens, it seems that many people don't get why terrans are whining about them. The fundamental problem is that now zerg doesn't have to "fear" any early game attack because 4 queens are a perfect shield against any kind of current form of pressure ( not all-ins ofc ). This directly change all the early game taking away the choice of building drones or unit which directly change the flow of the game since zerg can get their tech up and running with a lot of free bases and minimal ( if any at all ) losses.
On June 27 2012 02:34 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 02:10 Toadvine wrote:On June 27 2012 01:54 archonOOid wrote:
I think it's a great change but it might have been too much of a buff to the queen's range. The problem before the patch was that zerg were very susceptible to certain all-ins and the patch fixed that brilliantly. The question now is whether the fun dynamic in zvt has gone and if terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. The zvt early game is less tense at the moment and i think that terrans can play a straight up macro game vs zerg. Is "susceptible to all-ins" somehow a balance problem now? Every race should be susceptible to all-ins from other races, but standard play with good scouting should be safe against them. This is, for instance, currently the case in TvP for the most part; both sides can all-in at different stages of the game, and both can defend if they don't play greedy and scout the attack at a reasonable time. With the Queen buff, can Zerg even lose to Terran all-ins anymore? Why were Terran all-ins a problem before the buff, and doesn't the overlord speed buff fix this? Watch any ZvT game pre-patch. Terrans completely denies the Zerg scouting with a small number of hellions because they can kite all early Zerg units all day long. Zergs didn't have good scouting. People like DRG were just playing a safe modified spanishiwa style against Terrans.
This doesnt make any sense. It wasn't he hellions fault if you couldn't scout. Let's say that there were no hellions then your scout would have been killed by the rines in the bunker or he would have been denied by the terran wall. NO SCOUT.
The way to scout with zerg is via overlords and afaik hellions don't shoot up. Also what all-ins do you expect after you see 4/6 hellions ? The only decent one that comes to my mind is the hellion marauder all-in which is not that hard to defend.
On June 27 2012 03:09 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 03:06 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
WOW, this thread is still going. Queens are OP but not 120 page thread OP. People should spend more time playing the game and figuring out new builds opposed to complaining on this thread. If only people would actualy listen to this, the terrans in code A did. Agree 100%
I bet you guys have really short memories about how long zergs whining threads were  .
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On June 27 2012 01:14 bLo0d wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 23:44 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 22:31 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:29 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 21:06 Snowbear wrote:On June 26 2012 19:57 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 19:03 moki wrote:On June 26 2012 18:28 Protosnake wrote:
It wasnt that "unbalanced" but it was pretty much a nobrainer, you could contain a Z on 2 base, deny creep, deny map control, get safe against any zergling aggression and could potentially end the game with a runby
So just like how speedlings works in the early/midgame? That does not sound very unfair. Well, there are some differences between T and Z that make this actually quite different from a speedling contain. Here are a few: 1) Z needs to be ahead in bases to survive. 2 base against 2 base is considered being at an advantage for T. Wrong wrong wrong: infestor + hive can trade cost efficient with terran, so 3 base vs 3 base is perfectly possible. Please play the game at high masters or above, so you understand it. Instead of trying to bringing things on a personal, condescending level, why don't you take a moment to elaborate on what you're saying? That way this forum and specifically this thread could be used to improve somebody's understanding of the game, which seems much more constructive. ('sides, you don't really need to be high masters to know that infestors + broods or ultras can be cost efficient vT, but that's another issue) Specifically, I don't quite get how hive tech and infestors are relevant when discussing the differences between two early-midgame situations (a speedling contain on 2 bases and a hellion contain on 2 bases). Could you elaborate? Saying that Z does fine on hive tech 3b vs 3b doesn't quite imply that it does the same on hatch/lair tech for 2b vs 2b. Ling infestor isn't hive tech and replaces the muta ling baneling composition, and it works fine against marine tank or any equivalent mech force with some roaches mixed in I guess as needed. The additional benefits of this is that it lets you get upgrades earlier, tech faster, survive on less bases and is a lot easier to control. Yeah, I'm familiar with infestor/ling. Problem is, unilke infestor + hive (for which I agree that you can be cost-effective), I'm quite skeptical about the cost-effectiveness of infestor+ling, pre patch, against a standard marine/tank/medivac mix. Specifically, refer to  DRG vs  TheStC, first game of season 2 of the 2012 GSL, RO32. Here's a link, it doesn't require a pass: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67112I don't think that it gets much more standard than this game: reactor hellion opener from T, Z reacts by building a spine at the front and a few queens, delaying the third which starts to get constructed right as T's third OC lands (so: Z is actually behind on bases, and so far there have been no significant mistakes from either player). Z opts for the aforementioned ling+infestor composition, gets attacked by a pre-ultralisk timing push with marine/tank/medivac, pulls a relatively good surround but proceeds to lose the engagement and the game as a result. Now, I do realize that one game is not conclusive evidence. However, I also claim that having one of the best progamers in the world lose to somebody who then gets kicked out at the RO16 with exactly the composition/gameplan that is supposed to be the only one that is cost-efficient against T before hive tech is at least good evidence that it is hard for Z to be cost efficient enough with it if their third comes that late due to a hellion contain. Which... is exactly my point. The consequences of a hellion contain on two bases are huge, those of a speedling contain on two bases are T laughing at the wasted larvae and getting a freewin. It didn't work for DRG because going infestor off 2 bases is just not good. The reason the majority of Zergs went mutas was because it wasn't as gas intensive and it allowed for harass/denial of a landed third from Terran while Zerg secures their own third. Infestor ling is so good now because 6 gases can be acquired easily and 3 bases can be droned quickly, so there is no gas starve waiting for your third base and there is no tech transition out of mutas. You can just go straight to hive. The difference of infestor ling pre patch and post patch is due to the easy 3rd base. Of course DRG would be behind this game, he doesn't counteract the map control of the hellions with the mapcontrol and harass of mutas. Mutas were what allowed Zergs to make up for early lost map control.
Well, assuming that the spire timing would have been the same as the lair completion one, it would have been put down at about the time when T landed his CC. That gives a lot of time to set up defense, so my best guess is that mutas would be useless in this scenario.
Besides, going muta would have delayed his infestors, and hive as a consequence... and I'm pretty much convinced that a bad fight for ling+infestor would be even worse for muta+ling+infestor. Ling/bling/muta has already been mentioned: it's viable if Z can get ahead in bases (as the new queen buff allows), but on equal bases with a delay in acquiring them, it's a sure loss.
So, to sum it up: it looks to me that a hellion contain hurts Z far too much. Short of rushing to lair and spreading creep with overlords to give your queens and spines mobility (which I haven't calculated the timings of, it looks silly but it might have worked), I can't think of any way for pre-patch Z to get a third at a comparable time with T. If it's not range 5 queens, then it's something else - but Z desperately needs a way not to be set so far behind when pressured with four hellions.
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On June 27 2012 03:06 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
WOW, this thread is still going. Queens are OP but not 120 page thread OP. People should spend more time playing the game and figuring out new builds opposed to complaining on this thread.
This is no longer about queens, just look at a couple of the last pages.
Thread should be renamed to "general zerg whine thread".
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On June 27 2012 03:22 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:14 bLo0d wrote:On June 26 2012 23:44 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 22:31 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:29 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 21:06 Snowbear wrote:On June 26 2012 19:57 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 19:03 moki wrote:On June 26 2012 18:28 Protosnake wrote:
It wasnt that "unbalanced" but it was pretty much a nobrainer, you could contain a Z on 2 base, deny creep, deny map control, get safe against any zergling aggression and could potentially end the game with a runby
So just like how speedlings works in the early/midgame? That does not sound very unfair. Well, there are some differences between T and Z that make this actually quite different from a speedling contain. Here are a few: 1) Z needs to be ahead in bases to survive. 2 base against 2 base is considered being at an advantage for T. Wrong wrong wrong: infestor + hive can trade cost efficient with terran, so 3 base vs 3 base is perfectly possible. Please play the game at high masters or above, so you understand it. Instead of trying to bringing things on a personal, condescending level, why don't you take a moment to elaborate on what you're saying? That way this forum and specifically this thread could be used to improve somebody's understanding of the game, which seems much more constructive. ('sides, you don't really need to be high masters to know that infestors + broods or ultras can be cost efficient vT, but that's another issue) Specifically, I don't quite get how hive tech and infestors are relevant when discussing the differences between two early-midgame situations (a speedling contain on 2 bases and a hellion contain on 2 bases). Could you elaborate? Saying that Z does fine on hive tech 3b vs 3b doesn't quite imply that it does the same on hatch/lair tech for 2b vs 2b. Ling infestor isn't hive tech and replaces the muta ling baneling composition, and it works fine against marine tank or any equivalent mech force with some roaches mixed in I guess as needed. The additional benefits of this is that it lets you get upgrades earlier, tech faster, survive on less bases and is a lot easier to control. Yeah, I'm familiar with infestor/ling. Problem is, unilke infestor + hive (for which I agree that you can be cost-effective), I'm quite skeptical about the cost-effectiveness of infestor+ling, pre patch, against a standard marine/tank/medivac mix. Specifically, refer to DRG vs TheStC, first game of season 2 of the 2012 GSL, RO32. Here's a link, it doesn't require a pass: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67112I don't think that it gets much more standard than this game: reactor hellion opener from T, Z reacts by building a spine at the front and a few queens, delaying the third which starts to get constructed right as T's third OC lands (so: Z is actually behind on bases, and so far there have been no significant mistakes from either player). Z opts for the aforementioned ling+infestor composition, gets attacked by a pre-ultralisk timing push with marine/tank/medivac, pulls a relatively good surround but proceeds to lose the engagement and the game as a result. Now, I do realize that one game is not conclusive evidence. However, I also claim that having one of the best progamers in the world lose to somebody who then gets kicked out at the RO16 with exactly the composition/gameplan that is supposed to be the only one that is cost-efficient against T before hive tech is at least good evidence that it is hard for Z to be cost efficient enough with it if their third comes that late due to a hellion contain. Which... is exactly my point. The consequences of a hellion contain on two bases are huge, those of a speedling contain on two bases are T laughing at the wasted larvae and getting a freewin. It didn't work for DRG because going infestor off 2 bases is just not good. The reason the majority of Zergs went mutas was because it wasn't as gas intensive and it allowed for harass/denial of a landed third from Terran while Zerg secures their own third. Infestor ling is so good now because 6 gases can be acquired easily and 3 bases can be droned quickly, so there is no gas starve waiting for your third base and there is no tech transition out of mutas. You can just go straight to hive. The difference of infestor ling pre patch and post patch is due to the easy 3rd base. Of course DRG would be behind this game, he doesn't counteract the map control of the hellions with the mapcontrol and harass of mutas. Mutas were what allowed Zergs to make up for early lost map control. Well, assuming that the spire timing would have been the same as the lair completion one, it would have been put down at about the time when T landed his CC. That gives a lot of time to set up defense, so my best guess is that mutas would be useless in this scenario. Besides, going muta would have delayed his infestors, and hive as a consequence... and I'm pretty much convinced that a bad fight for ling+infestor would be even worse for muta+ling+infestor. Ling/bling/muta has already been mentioned: it's viable if Z can get ahead in bases (as the new queen buff allows), but on equal bases with a delay in acquiring them, it's a sure loss. So, to sum it up: it looks to me that a hellion contain hurts Z far too much. Short of rushing to lair and spreading creep with overlords to give your queens and spines mobility (which I haven't calculated the timings of, it looks silly but it might have worked), I can't think of any way for pre-patch Z to get a third at a comparable time with T. If it's not range 5 queens, then it's something else - but Z desperately needs a way not to be set so far behind when pressured with four hellions.
Make 3 roaches ?
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On June 27 2012 03:22 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:14 bLo0d wrote:On June 26 2012 23:44 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 22:31 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:29 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 21:06 Snowbear wrote:On June 26 2012 19:57 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 19:03 moki wrote:On June 26 2012 18:28 Protosnake wrote:
It wasnt that "unbalanced" but it was pretty much a nobrainer, you could contain a Z on 2 base, deny creep, deny map control, get safe against any zergling aggression and could potentially end the game with a runby
So just like how speedlings works in the early/midgame? That does not sound very unfair. Well, there are some differences between T and Z that make this actually quite different from a speedling contain. Here are a few: 1) Z needs to be ahead in bases to survive. 2 base against 2 base is considered being at an advantage for T. Wrong wrong wrong: infestor + hive can trade cost efficient with terran, so 3 base vs 3 base is perfectly possible. Please play the game at high masters or above, so you understand it. Instead of trying to bringing things on a personal, condescending level, why don't you take a moment to elaborate on what you're saying? That way this forum and specifically this thread could be used to improve somebody's understanding of the game, which seems much more constructive. ('sides, you don't really need to be high masters to know that infestors + broods or ultras can be cost efficient vT, but that's another issue) Specifically, I don't quite get how hive tech and infestors are relevant when discussing the differences between two early-midgame situations (a speedling contain on 2 bases and a hellion contain on 2 bases). Could you elaborate? Saying that Z does fine on hive tech 3b vs 3b doesn't quite imply that it does the same on hatch/lair tech for 2b vs 2b. Ling infestor isn't hive tech and replaces the muta ling baneling composition, and it works fine against marine tank or any equivalent mech force with some roaches mixed in I guess as needed. The additional benefits of this is that it lets you get upgrades earlier, tech faster, survive on less bases and is a lot easier to control. Yeah, I'm familiar with infestor/ling. Problem is, unilke infestor + hive (for which I agree that you can be cost-effective), I'm quite skeptical about the cost-effectiveness of infestor+ling, pre patch, against a standard marine/tank/medivac mix. Specifically, refer to DRG vs TheStC, first game of season 2 of the 2012 GSL, RO32. Here's a link, it doesn't require a pass: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67112I don't think that it gets much more standard than this game: reactor hellion opener from T, Z reacts by building a spine at the front and a few queens, delaying the third which starts to get constructed right as T's third OC lands (so: Z is actually behind on bases, and so far there have been no significant mistakes from either player). Z opts for the aforementioned ling+infestor composition, gets attacked by a pre-ultralisk timing push with marine/tank/medivac, pulls a relatively good surround but proceeds to lose the engagement and the game as a result. Now, I do realize that one game is not conclusive evidence. However, I also claim that having one of the best progamers in the world lose to somebody who then gets kicked out at the RO16 with exactly the composition/gameplan that is supposed to be the only one that is cost-efficient against T before hive tech is at least good evidence that it is hard for Z to be cost efficient enough with it if their third comes that late due to a hellion contain. Which... is exactly my point. The consequences of a hellion contain on two bases are huge, those of a speedling contain on two bases are T laughing at the wasted larvae and getting a freewin. It didn't work for DRG because going infestor off 2 bases is just not good. The reason the majority of Zergs went mutas was because it wasn't as gas intensive and it allowed for harass/denial of a landed third from Terran while Zerg secures their own third. Infestor ling is so good now because 6 gases can be acquired easily and 3 bases can be droned quickly, so there is no gas starve waiting for your third base and there is no tech transition out of mutas. You can just go straight to hive. The difference of infestor ling pre patch and post patch is due to the easy 3rd base. Of course DRG would be behind this game, he doesn't counteract the map control of the hellions with the mapcontrol and harass of mutas. Mutas were what allowed Zergs to make up for early lost map control. Well, assuming that the spire timing would have been the same as the lair completion one, it would have been put down at about the time when T landed his CC. That gives a lot of time to set up defense, so my best guess is that mutas would be useless in this scenario. Besides, going muta would have delayed his infestors, and hive as a consequence... and I'm pretty much convinced that a bad fight for ling+infestor would be even worse for muta+ling+infestor. Ling/bling/muta has already been mentioned: it's viable if Z can get ahead in bases (as the new queen buff allows), but on equal bases with a delay in acquiring them, it's a sure loss. So, to sum it up: it looks to me that a hellion contain hurts Z far too much. Short of rushing to lair and spreading creep with overlords to give your queens and spines mobility (which I haven't calculated the timings of, it looks silly but it might have worked), I can't think of any way for pre-patch Z to get a third at a comparable time with T. If it's not range 5 queens, then it's something else - but Z desperately needs a way not to be set so far behind when pressured with four hellions.
idk. maybe use your larvae for something other than drones?
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As pointed out by other responses already, Queen buff is what triggered the current state of TvZ but is not the underlying cause, it just allows Zergs to reach their extremely strong lategame way too easily.
TvZ prepatch was the best matchup in the game because terran had the pressure on it's shoulders and had to make things happen, creating non stop midgame action all over the map, which was fun to watch and to play. Now because of the queen buff the midgame just doesnt even happen since it allows Zergs to skip directly from early game (queen/spines/drones) to lategame (brood/infestors).
This should be looked at (and not only in TvZ, ZvP is just as bad), players can reach max supply and lategame tech way too fast, and eliminating midgame is not fun, since it creates boring turtle to max games. It creates balance issues because terran lategame is a bit weak, but the mechanic is bad from the start, even if TvZ lategame was balanced.
Another thing that could be interesting was something that Blizz already tested. On the PTR of the fungal buff patch, fungal growth was a projectile based spell for a while. Bring back this mechanic and make it so PDD blocks fungal growth. It would allow players to actually micro against fungal, and would make ravens lategame way more interesting.
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On June 27 2012 03:36 BobMcJohnson wrote:
As pointed out by other responses already, Queen buff is what triggered the current state of TvZ but is not the underlying cause, it just allows Zergs to reach their extremely strong lategame way too easily.
TvZ prepatch was the best matchup in the game because terran had the pressure on it's shoulders and had to make things happen, creating non stop midgame action all over the map, which was fun to watch and to play. Now because of the queen buff the midgame just doesnt even happen since it allows Zergs to skip directly from early game (queen/spines/drones) to lategame (brood/infestors).
This should be looked at (and not only in TvZ, ZvP is just as bad), players can reach max supply and lategame tech way too fast, and eliminating midgame is not fun, since it creates boring turtle to max games. It creates balance issues because terran lategame is a bit weak, but the mechanic is bad from the start, even if TvZ lategame was balanced.
Another thing that could be interesting was something that Blizz already tested. On the PTR of the fungal buff patch, fungal growth was a projectile based spell for a while. Bring back this mechanic and make it so PDD blocks fungal growth. It would allow players to actually micro against fungal, and would make ravens lategame way more interesting.
I actually REALLY like that suggestion, it would make raven based builds a bit stronger, as ATM they are quite useless aside from gimmicky play. In fact, the ease of which players deal with HSM makes me worry about the 10 second countdown on widow mines but thats another story.
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On June 27 2012 01:30 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:21 SnowFox2ne1 wrote:On June 27 2012 01:07 the`postman wrote:On June 27 2012 01:01 Neurosis wrote:On June 27 2012 00:58 Dosey wrote:On June 27 2012 00:38 Assirra wrote:
So this went from queen to now just plain old zerg whine thread.
Sigh... Standard. Thread should have been closed 100 pages ago. I understand that they may have kept it around to keep the whiners attention here, but every thread has pretty much devolved to this so there is really no point in keeping the thread open... Why is there always someone saying a thread should be closed? Zerg is stupid right now of course people are going to complain in a thread asking if the last buffs were too much? What are you expecting exactly. No one is forcing you to read it. Too bad about every zerg being knocked into code B last night. Kind of throws a wrench into the idea that the Terran from Code S who are now in Code A were only there cause of their race. If you think players like MMA, Bomber, and Jjakji did not honestly deserve to advance over their zerg counter-parts; then there are bigger problems than balance afoot. It honestly looks like there are more talented terran than any other race at the moment. I don't foresee Terran winning Code S any time soon because of imbalance being such a big deal when skill levels of players are much closer. We shall see, but when 7 terran get into the Ro16; there is a bigger reasoning for certain groups having impossible situations where a terran could not help but advance due to numbers and weak play from one player. If you watched the final group of Code S; Taeja and Ryung looked like the dominant players, while Leenock looked just terrible. A terran literally won code S last season... I'm glad we are back to the part of the balance discussion where all Terran are just better players than everyone else, although you'd think with Zerg being so overpowered in ZvT they'd be able to beat these better players.
Sorry but, that was pre-patch. This is a thread about post patch. You think Freaky is better than Bomber? They have adapted, but they didn't do the 6 queen opener that much. Players like Leenock did a random roach all-in that ended up being useless. Being behind the meta-game or not being as good will cause any race to lose no matter how much better they are.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
PDD blocks Fungal Growth?
Are you nuts?
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On June 27 2012 03:41 ysnake wrote:
PDD blocks Fungal Growth?
Are you nuts?
For Wings of Liberty I agree. But with the tools that Zerg are getting in HotS...hell why not? Gotta give us something late game. Raven viking might be a little good. but Hydras will be a unit...
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On June 27 2012 03:41 ysnake wrote:
PDD blocks Fungal Growth?
Are you nuts?
re read his post again
he's saying it *should* (because in a patch it was proposed to make fungal growth a projectile) not that it *is*
(also, I should say that it'll probably make ravens maybe used more? /shrug)
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so you suggest 1 raven with 2 PDDs should block 40 fungals. ROFL.
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On June 27 2012 03:48 Decendos wrote:
so you suggest 1 raven with 2 PDDs should block 40 fungals. ROFL.
Obviously you would have to tweak the numbers.
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On June 27 2012 03:48 Decendos wrote:
so you suggest 1 raven with 2 PDDs should block 40 fungals. ROFL.
Make 1 PDD block 2 fungals, why cant you balance it like that?
Also if the fungal was a projectile, it is avoidable. It wouldnt be easy, but that split second of "oh shit, Im about to die, retreat!" could make a huge difference.
If Z late-game wasnt so powerful, queen buff would not be a huge deal, as you could just play a straight up macro game on even footing and not be a 15 mintue ticking time bomb.
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On June 27 2012 02:13 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:16 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 01:11 Shiori wrote:
By showing that an untouched Zerg is virtually impossible to deal with, people are trying to show why the aforementioned argument is false. No one has shown this. Stop arguing in absolutes based on nothing at all. Think about it. Let's suppose that the new Queen change made Zerg literally invulnerable to every conceivable non-blind pressure build. Not say it does, but let's suppose. Then that means that Zerg can basically play single player until, say, 10 minutes into the game. Due to the way that Larva Inject works, Zerg is going to be able to get more workers than any other race in this period of time pretty easily. What's more, expanding actually helps the Zerg production, unlike going, say, 3OC or Gate Nexus Nexus. This means that by the time everyone's economy kicks in, Zerg enjoys a rather healthy lead because they don't have as much production overhead. In a sense, expanding actually helps them to produce more in a very direct sense, and not just in the sense that it allows them to afford more units. Even supposing that every race is on an even foot in the lategame, the fact that Zerg will out-produce other races in workers snowballs and allows them to get a super-early Hive that can't really be matched tech-wise by anyone else. It's not so much that Zerg's lategame is too strong, in this line of argument (though, personally, I'd argue that in many cases, Zerg's lategame is too strong) but that they can get there more quickly than anyone else if left unpressured.That, in effect, is the extreme scenario that people are concerned with when it comes to talking about the Queen change. They feel that it is a step in the direction of this passive style of play which doesn't really suit any race except Zerg.
Actually, I have two objections.
One is that Z might not have large production overheads but they do have to pay for the extra queens. Two hatcheries, a spawning pool and six queens equal 1850 minerals, which is the same cost as two command centers and seven barracks (note: I'm talking about command centers and not OCs because the morphing cost for OCs is essentially an investment in workers, assuming that you do use the energy for MULEs and not scans). Equivalently, for two nexi and seven gateways - though we're not talking about P.
The second objection is that we've actually seen entirely passive styles in the past; eventually, they were all figured out. There was a time when all the P rage was turtling on two bases and getting a colossus/stalker/void ray deathball and two-bases timing pushes with +2 mech have had a place in the history of the game. It's not just a zerg thing.
Well, there would be a third objection that is, "Actually, six queens don't make Z invulnerable to every possible form of pressure up to hive tech so the whole argument is a dead end", but that is sort of a given. If you ask me, right now the trouble in TvZ stems from Z being able to get a quicker third, therefore having wriggle room to make choices in the midgame, and from T sticking to ineffective pressure. Until the latter changes and people develop midgame aggression that is stronger (thanks to having diverted resources away from early game pressure), it will be impossible to see if the options that Z has are too strong. See objection 1 to see the sort of structures that T could likely build to stage midgame aggression if they didn't concentrate on early, ineffective troops.
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Lol stupid patch. My friend that is zerg and me being Terran exchanged games evenly before this patch. We are both 800+ masters. After the patch, he says he barely has to try against all terrans on ladder. GJ zergs.
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On June 27 2012 03:36 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 03:22 Meff wrote:On June 27 2012 01:14 bLo0d wrote:On June 26 2012 23:44 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 22:31 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:29 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 21:06 Snowbear wrote:On June 26 2012 19:57 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 19:03 moki wrote:On June 26 2012 18:28 Protosnake wrote:
It wasnt that "unbalanced" but it was pretty much a nobrainer, you could contain a Z on 2 base, deny creep, deny map control, get safe against any zergling aggression and could potentially end the game with a runby
So just like how speedlings works in the early/midgame? That does not sound very unfair. Well, there are some differences between T and Z that make this actually quite different from a speedling contain. Here are a few: 1) Z needs to be ahead in bases to survive. 2 base against 2 base is considered being at an advantage for T. Wrong wrong wrong: infestor + hive can trade cost efficient with terran, so 3 base vs 3 base is perfectly possible. Please play the game at high masters or above, so you understand it. Instead of trying to bringing things on a personal, condescending level, why don't you take a moment to elaborate on what you're saying? That way this forum and specifically this thread could be used to improve somebody's understanding of the game, which seems much more constructive. ('sides, you don't really need to be high masters to know that infestors + broods or ultras can be cost efficient vT, but that's another issue) Specifically, I don't quite get how hive tech and infestors are relevant when discussing the differences between two early-midgame situations (a speedling contain on 2 bases and a hellion contain on 2 bases). Could you elaborate? Saying that Z does fine on hive tech 3b vs 3b doesn't quite imply that it does the same on hatch/lair tech for 2b vs 2b. Ling infestor isn't hive tech and replaces the muta ling baneling composition, and it works fine against marine tank or any equivalent mech force with some roaches mixed in I guess as needed. The additional benefits of this is that it lets you get upgrades earlier, tech faster, survive on less bases and is a lot easier to control. Yeah, I'm familiar with infestor/ling. Problem is, unilke infestor + hive (for which I agree that you can be cost-effective), I'm quite skeptical about the cost-effectiveness of infestor+ling, pre patch, against a standard marine/tank/medivac mix. Specifically, refer to DRG vs TheStC, first game of season 2 of the 2012 GSL, RO32. Here's a link, it doesn't require a pass: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67112I don't think that it gets much more standard than this game: reactor hellion opener from T, Z reacts by building a spine at the front and a few queens, delaying the third which starts to get constructed right as T's third OC lands (so: Z is actually behind on bases, and so far there have been no significant mistakes from either player). Z opts for the aforementioned ling+infestor composition, gets attacked by a pre-ultralisk timing push with marine/tank/medivac, pulls a relatively good surround but proceeds to lose the engagement and the game as a result. Now, I do realize that one game is not conclusive evidence. However, I also claim that having one of the best progamers in the world lose to somebody who then gets kicked out at the RO16 with exactly the composition/gameplan that is supposed to be the only one that is cost-efficient against T before hive tech is at least good evidence that it is hard for Z to be cost efficient enough with it if their third comes that late due to a hellion contain. Which... is exactly my point. The consequences of a hellion contain on two bases are huge, those of a speedling contain on two bases are T laughing at the wasted larvae and getting a freewin. It didn't work for DRG because going infestor off 2 bases is just not good. The reason the majority of Zergs went mutas was because it wasn't as gas intensive and it allowed for harass/denial of a landed third from Terran while Zerg secures their own third. Infestor ling is so good now because 6 gases can be acquired easily and 3 bases can be droned quickly, so there is no gas starve waiting for your third base and there is no tech transition out of mutas. You can just go straight to hive. The difference of infestor ling pre patch and post patch is due to the easy 3rd base. Of course DRG would be behind this game, he doesn't counteract the map control of the hellions with the mapcontrol and harass of mutas. Mutas were what allowed Zergs to make up for early lost map control. Well, assuming that the spire timing would have been the same as the lair completion one, it would have been put down at about the time when T landed his CC. That gives a lot of time to set up defense, so my best guess is that mutas would be useless in this scenario. Besides, going muta would have delayed his infestors, and hive as a consequence... and I'm pretty much convinced that a bad fight for ling+infestor would be even worse for muta+ling+infestor. Ling/bling/muta has already been mentioned: it's viable if Z can get ahead in bases (as the new queen buff allows), but on equal bases with a delay in acquiring them, it's a sure loss. So, to sum it up: it looks to me that a hellion contain hurts Z far too much. Short of rushing to lair and spreading creep with overlords to give your queens and spines mobility (which I haven't calculated the timings of, it looks silly but it might have worked), I can't think of any way for pre-patch Z to get a third at a comparable time with T. If it's not range 5 queens, then it's something else - but Z desperately needs a way not to be set so far behind when pressured with four hellions. idk. maybe use your larvae for something other than drones?
On June 27 2012 03:28 Picklebread wrote:
Make 3 roaches ?
3 roaches end up costing 500/75 and 4.75 larvae (assuming that you didn't want a warren anyway), as well as forcing you to get gas earlier. We're at about the level of three or four workers and the macro hatchery, all to be able to take a quicker third. I doubt that it ends up better than what DRG did.
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EPT
