EPT1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
|
Cocoba
Canada352 Posts
| ||
|
etofok
138 Posts
We starting losing chemistry of 'amazing game' and I hope Blizzard will do right decisions to make some changes. | ||
|
forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On June 27 2012 06:59 Cocoba wrote: The queen nerf is one of the most dramatic changes in a long time. It completely has given the zerg the advantage over terrans now. Zerg's can play super greedy and just force late game. However, that new marine maruader style that Demuslim was using against Ret looked pretty strong for Terrans so maybe it was a good thing as a new style came from this? Anything that makes Terran focus on bio in yet another matchup is bad for the game. I'm so sick of MMM, but it's like Blizzard is determined to make every Terran use it in every matchup. | ||
|
SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On June 20 2012 14:30 Eps wrote: The Terran race has used some of the most innovative and diverse strategies and openers. Reaper openers, nerfed. All sort of Marine-Aggro 2Rax builds, nerfed Rax Build time/Bunker Build Time/Stim Timing. Banshee openers -> Quicker Spore Root. Hellion BF Nerf. Now a Queen buff to deal with as well. And keep in mind, these are just the opening builds that were affected. This isn't even including the Siege Tank nerfs, Ghost nerf, Thor nerf. I have to say with all the "Let the metagame play out, they'll learn out to adapt". Terrans have adapted many times throughout most of the patches to changes (read: Nerfs). But once anything that is remotely even decent is found, it's nerfed into the ground. Well put. I'm not seeing a way out of this queen buff problem. Even pro's are candidly coming out saying this was unneeded and provides a level of imbalance (i.e. Morrow/Rain). I was dubious at first about this buff, so I gave it time before I said anything. But it is too easy for zerg to sit on 2-3 base massing queens and drones; especially with some of these new, zerg-favored maps (i.e. condemned, LOL, you're kidding right?) I think Blizzard just keeps nerfing terran until they're considered "underpowered." Well, congrats, I think you're there! If you look at the GSL these days, one would think helion opening was "boring," now look at the number of Protoss going 2-base all-in; that's real entertaining. And Terran has just evolved into CC first, but this can't come close to competing with a gasless zerg economy. Zerg is meant to mass expand - it has that power over all other races and if left alone, without harass, they will kill you. Now Protoss and Terran are relying on risky, typically all-in timings to beat their opponents. That's a real strong way to play... | ||
|
Starshaped
Sweden575 Posts
On June 27 2012 06:35 Meff wrote: I see two ways out of this situation, actually. 1) a T build gets developed that takes advantage of the lack of threats from Z in the early game. Everybody starts doing that, the metagame shifts, and Z eventually start cutting corners by getting less queens (because they don't give them an auto-win since aggression isn't that common anymore). At this point, pressure builds, threats and feints become viable again. 2) no such build gets discovered and Blizzard patches this up. Lack of threats from Z in the early game? Are you kidding me? | ||
|
Protosnake
France295 Posts
The ghost nerf was rushed. There were only a handful of lategame TvZs that went the mass ghost route, and zergs won half of them. The other half was won by pretty much MVP alone in situations where he was advantaged before even getting the ghosts. We never got to see zergs response to the mass ghost play and what it would lead to, No that wasnt a "handful" of lategame TvZ, that thing was everywhere on ladder, i played against that, and litteraly no matter how ahead I was, a million snipe was the solution to everything, the MVP game was just the highlight of it. Also, it wasnt really something that could have waited for the metagame to catch-up or something because unlike many other claim of imbalance you cant really tell zerg to "Make x unit/army comp" against ghost, because zerg had absolutely no anti-caster unit in their tech tree, like there would have never ever been any counter to that. I do aggree that snipe got "overnerfed" though, and that a snipe wont 1Shot a baneling anymore is pretty sad | ||
|
etofok
138 Posts
because unlike many other claim of imbalance you cant really tell zerg to "Make x unit/army comp" against ghost Ling-baneling will punish terran who has 25 ghosts and as oblivious super low tank count. Zergs had kept t3 production and died. | ||
|
Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
On June 26 2012 19:07 Charon1979 wrote: From my (biased) pov, it was not fun. You feel helpless, constantly under attack, you always double check you queen position because 1 hair thin missplacement on the ramp means: roastinggggggggg timeeeeeee You cant move out and you are completely blind unless you get roaches or mass Speedlings. Your creep ends at your base. Your overlord gets shot by 1 Marine (2 are enough to cover nearly all possible angles on most maps). You feel terribly behind. Did he expand? Did he even double expand? Is he still one base? Is there a Banshee follow up (delaying my third even longer as there is no creep)? Is he going Mech? Is it just 4 Hellions or does he follow up mass hellions? Hellion Marauder? WTF hellion drop in my mainbase? The overlord speed buff was a nessesarity, not because of "I cant see his base" but because of "lol i dont even get near his base before getting killed" The overlord speed buff was hardly necessary. Good play has shown that it's never been that way either. I don't want to imply that you're a low level player (I am as well) but all of those statements are pretty based more in your own skill than the metagame. But when it comes to earlygame, you SHOULD feel threatened. That's the only card terrans can play. Once you survive our initial ten minutes of harassment, the game should be yours if you haven't lost too much. That's how the game worked, and even if it was bland, it was balanced. Terran worked harder, but was capable of truly getting ahead. Nowadays, not only is it microscopically easy to flip-flop your lead due to one bad fungal or baneling (trust me, marine splitting is a hundred times harder than baneling control) but it's almost impossible to get that lead in the first place. We can't react fast enough to punish a defensive zerg. We expand? we're stuck with no production capacity for a minute or two while zerg has all the time in the world to expand himself or put tons of pressure back on us due to the nature of larva. I was a brood war zerg, the only reason I switched to T was the roach being the most boring unit in the game, but I'm getting mighty tired of having to work three times harder than my opponents. My friend is high masters (he beats pros from time to time in legit games) and not having played zerg once, took a zerg smurf account from zero to masters in ONE DAY. He then made a new account and did terran again, and it took him almost a week to get to where his zerg point was... | ||
|
chaosftw
24 Posts
| ||
|
zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On June 27 2012 05:38 Dalavita wrote: A couple of pointers. 1. The terrans who told you to stop crying back in the day had a point for these reasons. The game was still new and undeveloped enough that anything could happen, and literally no one knew what the future entailed. It was pretty much accepted that the game was in its infancy and that Blizzard would eventually make it better where it was needed. 2. The terrans crying now do it because Blizzard actually made the matchup worse, in every single way. I don't care about statistical balance or if the GSL has 30 terrans, protosses or zergs, as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular. About #2 I have to also say the matchup is really reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally boring to watch now as a spectator too. | ||
|
Shadow_Dog
Canada427 Posts
On June 27 2012 06:59 Cocoba wrote: The queen nerf is one of the most dramatic changes in a long time. It completely has given the zerg the advantage over terrans now. Zerg's can play super greedy and just force late game. However, that new marine maruader style that Demuslim was using against Ret looked pretty strong for Terrans so maybe it was a good thing as a new style came from this? How would Zs able to do that? | ||
|
Meff
Italy287 Posts
On June 27 2012 07:07 Starshaped wrote: Lack of threats from Z in the early game? Are you kidding me? Nope. I am, however, referring to a situation in which a gasless early third with mass queens for defense has been scouted. There might be some transition that I haven't considered/seen, but I would suspect that in such a situation Z is unable to move out with any significant early-game force. | ||
|
ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On June 27 2012 07:34 Meff wrote: Nope. I am, however, referring to a situation in which a gasless early third with mass queens for defense has been scouted. There might be some transition that I haven't considered/seen, but I would suspect that in such a situation Z is unable to move out with any significant early-game force. You realize that with 3 hatch Zerg can pop down a Warren and produce 30 roach in 90 seconds right? So if you don't have a good sized standing army, Zerg sees it and pop down a Roach Warren, you are dead even if you see the second it starts building. | ||
|
Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On June 27 2012 07:08 Protosnake wrote: No that wasnt a "handful" of lategame TvZ, that thing was everywhere on ladder, i played against that, and litteraly no matter how ahead I was, a million snipe was the solution to everything, the MVP game was just the highlight of it. Also, it wasnt really something that could have waited for the metagame to catch-up or something because unlike many other claim of imbalance you cant really tell zerg to "Make x unit/army comp" against ghost, because zerg had absolutely no anti-caster unit in their tech tree, like there would have never ever been any counter to that. I do aggree that snipe got "overnerfed" though, and that a snipe wont 1Shot a baneling anymore is pretty sad There were a handful of broadcasted TvZs played that included mass ghosts at the top level. I don't have much interest in how it was used in ladder since ladder is a subjective experience and it was at the beginning of the snipe era which naturally meant that your average zerg didn't know how to respond to it since there wasn't a clear cut way that the top zergs would respond yet due to an undeveloped response in the current metagame. Also, the counter word is shitty too begin with. In TvZ mech banelings have been used to kill thor clumps but you wouldn't call banelings an Thor counter would you? Until it gets found out about, people won't know about it. Another example is mutalisk magic boxing against thors. Before people found out about that you wouldn't say anything about mutas and thor counters. There was good potential in banelings/lings vs ghosts for starters, and people never got time to experiment with things against it, but I'll let it remain unsaid. The patch is done and snipe is gone. It's pointless to theorycraft about something that Blizzard has killed off. On June 27 2012 07:20 chaosftw wrote: yay now i can actually hit a hellion as it kills all my drones! Intelligent positioning and moving of your units to zone out faster units? Nah, why do that. Just let Blizzard fix it for you! | ||
|
rogzardo
610 Posts
On June 27 2012 07:34 Meff wrote: Nope. I am, however, referring to a situation in which a gasless early third with mass queens for defense has been scouted. There might be some transition that I haven't considered/seen, but I would suspect that in such a situation Z is unable to move out with any significant early-game force. If you have never executed or tried to defend a roach/ling/bane all-in, I don't think you have any business posting here. If you have, then you should know they can be purdy effective. | ||
|
Cocoba
Canada352 Posts
I meant that early game to mid game pushes aren't that viable for terran anymore as ALL larvae production is towards drones (and OLs). Early game pushes with hellions and marines aren't that viable as 4-5 queens will stomp it. Zerg will be able to drone up super heavily and hit a nice drone count and than can crush any mid game pushes. Terrans have builds for mid game pushes that still might work but just not as well as they use to. Demuslim was talking about this on his stream yesterday as well so if you have the time you can check that out. Overall, the zerg just ends up being less suseptiable to early game shenanigans. | ||
|
Meff
Italy287 Posts
On June 27 2012 06:37 GeNeSiDe wrote: The problem is 1. is already common, but gets countered so hard by roach bane busts, which are very hard to stop. Investing in 4 queens helps out an early all in anyways(you can spread creep while injecting non-stop) Okay, this interests me. Do you know what the timing is for when Z needs to make a choice between gearing up for passive, economical play or for an all-in? Alternatively, if you know of a game where an aggressive switch was performed, I can check the timing myself. I want to figure out how much T actually has to commit to defense if they decide to go greedy. | ||
|
Cocoba
Canada352 Posts
On June 27 2012 07:05 forsooth wrote: Anything that makes Terran focus on bio in yet another matchup is bad for the game. I'm so sick of MMM, but it's like Blizzard is determined to make every Terran use it in every matchup. Well with what they have released for HoTS, I think it's gonna make you a very happy panda. | ||
|
Reaps
United Kingdom1280 Posts
| ||
|
Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
The two balance whines are very different. When Zergs started, they failed to learn to adapt and instead opted for hand-outs from Blizzard. It amazes me when perfectly nice people - who would never normally dream of deploying racial slurs or misogynistic comments - make such bigoted statements without batting an eyelid. Please, think before you attribute blanket stupidity and a lack of moral fibre to an entire group based on their arbitrary choice of RTS race. Perhaps if you'd actually been one of those Zergs, trying to adapt, you'd appreciate what a sparse and oddly-shaped toolbox we were handed to begin with, and what an uphill struggle it was to try and make those tools cope with each new build that emerged from behind the Terran fortifications. It bears saying again: go look through the strategy forum and you'll see that virtually all TvZ and ZvT guides or discussions concerned Terran builds. | ||
| ||
