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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 27 2012 07:40 rogzardo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 07:34 Meff wrote:On June 27 2012 07:07 Starshaped wrote:On June 27 2012 06:35 Meff wrote:On June 27 2012 06:19 Dalavita wrote:
I don't think any of the terrans will switch to be honest. They'll keep grinding the game in the hopes of finding something new.
Regardless of what they'll find, if they'll discover some endgame composition that works against the endgame of the zerg or whatnot doesn't change the fact that Blizzard hamhandedly broke the earlygame of TvZ, a matchup that was considered balanced.
Edit: Statistics aside. The matchup is less fun than it was before. Who would want to turtle on their ass for 10+ minutes before anything happened? What is the point in those first ten minutes if nothing important happens...
If terrans discovered that turtling on 4 base until BC/Ravens was successful, the earlygame of TvZ would still be broken, regardless of statistical balance. I see two ways out of this situation, actually. 1) a T build gets developed that takes advantage of the lack of threats from Z in the early game. Everybody starts doing that, the metagame shifts, and Z eventually start cutting corners by getting less queens (because they don't give them an auto-win since aggression isn't that common anymore). At this point, pressure builds, threats and feints become viable again. 2) no such build gets discovered and Blizzard patches this up. Lack of threats from Z in the early game? Are you kidding me? Nope. I am, however, referring to a situation in which a gasless early third with mass queens for defense has been scouted. There might be some transition that I haven't considered/seen, but I would suspect that in such a situation Z is unable to move out with any significant early-game force. If you have never executed or tried to defend a roach/ling/bane all-in, I don't think you have any business posting here. If you have, then you should know they can be purdy effective.
Well, when I do decide to all-in, I normally do it out of two bases, without spending 600 extra minerals on queens that don't contribute to the attack, plus another 350 on a third hatch. And, for that matter, getting gas quite early. There might be a variation that I'm not aware of, though. Which one are you thinking of?
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On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones.
I did that in the last TvZ I played. Killed 12 drones, but I lost all of my hellions and thus all my map control as well. The zerg had gone for an early third and still managed to stop my following marine tank push at his natural with queens, lings and drones, that even though it did a lot of damage, still had me behind in army count, worker count and expansion count.
Losing all of your hellions for 10-15 ish drones isn't worth it if the zerg goes for that early of a third.
Footnote: My tank push was a full minute delayed, and I might have been able to hold it and won if I had brought some SCVs along and made bunkers as I normally do, but I did get 5+ overlords for free on my way there since they had a bad rally.
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On June 27 2012 07:48 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. I did that in the last TvZ I played. Killed 12 drones, but I lost all of my hellions and thus all my map control as well. The zerg had gone for an early third and still managed to stop my following marine tank push at his natural with queens, lings and drones, that even though it did a lot of damage, still had me behind in army count, worker count and expansion count. Losing all of your hellions for 10-15 ish drones isn't worth it if the zerg goes for that early of a third. Footnote: My tank push was a full minute delayed, and I might have been able to hold it and won if I had brought some SCVs along and made bunkers as I normally do, but I did get 5+ overlords for free on my way there since they had a bad rally.
So what your saying is, you want to kill zerg flat out with hellions in the first 5 minutes.
And people wonder why blizzard wants to buff zerg early game.
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On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones.
Most maps in the current map pool can be blocked off by 3-4 queens. However most people won't get 4 queens so you argument is still valid until you bring up the fact that by committing your hellions, if they do damage, than great, but 9 times out of 10 they'll get only a drone or two and that will leave the terran with absolutely no map control.
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On June 27 2012 07:49 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 07:48 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. I did that in the last TvZ I played. Killed 12 drones, but I lost all of my hellions and thus all my map control as well. The zerg had gone for an early third and still managed to stop my following marine tank push at his natural with queens, lings and drones, that even though it did a lot of damage, still had me behind in army count, worker count and expansion count. Losing all of your hellions for 10-15 ish drones isn't worth it if the zerg goes for that early of a third. Footnote: My tank push was a full minute delayed, and I might have been able to hold it and won if I had brought some SCVs along and made bunkers as I normally do, but I did get 5+ overlords for free on my way there since they had a bad rally. So what your saying is, you want to kill zerg flat out with hellions in the first 5 minutes. And people wonder why blizzard wants to buff zerg early game.
I'm saying it's not worth sacrificing your hellions to kill 10 drones.
You should have your eyes checked.
On June 27 2012 07:42 Cocoba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 07:05 forsooth wrote:On June 27 2012 06:59 Cocoba wrote:
The queen nerf is one of the most dramatic changes in a long time. It completely has given the zerg the advantage over terrans now. Zerg's can play super greedy and just force late game. However, that new marine maruader style that Demuslim was using against Ret looked pretty strong for Terrans so maybe it was a good thing as a new style came from this? Anything that makes Terran focus on bio in yet another matchup is bad for the game. I'm so sick of MMM, but it's like Blizzard is determined to make every Terran use it in every matchup. Well with what they have released for HoTS, I think it's gonna make you a very happy panda.
They're making terran mech into the definition of an A-move race, potentially ruining the awesomeness that is current TvT in the process, while adding tank raping units like the viper and adding burrow charge to ultralisks, making tanks weaker than ever. I don't see HotS being the saving grace for terrans. In fact, I'd probably switch to zerg in HotS if I didn't love what terran used to be about. In all likeliness I'll probably stop playing tho.
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On June 27 2012 07:52 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 07:49 Reaps wrote:On June 27 2012 07:48 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. I did that in the last TvZ I played. Killed 12 drones, but I lost all of my hellions and thus all my map control as well. The zerg had gone for an early third and still managed to stop my following marine tank push at his natural with queens, lings and drones, that even though it did a lot of damage, still had me behind in army count, worker count and expansion count. Losing all of your hellions for 10-15 ish drones isn't worth it if the zerg goes for that early of a third. Footnote: My tank push was a full minute delayed, and I might have been able to hold it and won if I had brought some SCVs along and made bunkers as I normally do, but I did get 5+ overlords for free on my way there since they had a bad rally. So what your saying is, you want to kill zerg flat out with hellions in the first 5 minutes. And people wonder why blizzard wants to buff zerg early game. I'm saying it's not worth sacrificing your hellions to kill 10 drones. You should have your eyes checked.
Killing more then 10-15 drones (like you said) will just simply cripple the zerg to much they will just die, its basicly half of their worker's at that stage.
My eyes are fine, your number's are not however. 10 drones is not a bad trade off depending how many hellions you use.
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On June 27 2012 07:55 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 07:52 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 07:49 Reaps wrote:On June 27 2012 07:48 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. I did that in the last TvZ I played. Killed 12 drones, but I lost all of my hellions and thus all my map control as well. The zerg had gone for an early third and still managed to stop my following marine tank push at his natural with queens, lings and drones, that even though it did a lot of damage, still had me behind in army count, worker count and expansion count. Losing all of your hellions for 10-15 ish drones isn't worth it if the zerg goes for that early of a third. Footnote: My tank push was a full minute delayed, and I might have been able to hold it and won if I had brought some SCVs along and made bunkers as I normally do, but I did get 5+ overlords for free on my way there since they had a bad rally. So what your saying is, you want to kill zerg flat out with hellions in the first 5 minutes. And people wonder why blizzard wants to buff zerg early game. I'm saying it's not worth sacrificing your hellions to kill 10 drones. You should have your eyes checked. Killing more then 10-15 drones (like you said) will just simply cripple the zerg to much they will just die, its basicly half of their worker's at that stage. My eyes are fine, your number's are not however. 10 drones is not a bad trade off depending how many hellions you use.
Ten drones for four hellions and the complete lack of map control is an awul trade, and I would never do if I knew that I'd lose my hellions. The only time it'll cripple a zerg on 3 base is if you did a perfect followup push that aimed to kill them before they could recover (i.e within 1-2 minutes of the drone roasting).
Also, I still don't see how I'm saying that I want to kill the zerg flat out with hellions in the first 5 minutes.
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Pointless arguement really, you have valid points and so do i, it really could go on forever.
This whole thread is pointless though IMO. Told myself to not get involved, my bad.
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On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones.
LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues.
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On June 27 2012 08:00 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 07:55 Reaps wrote:On June 27 2012 07:52 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 07:49 Reaps wrote:On June 27 2012 07:48 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. I did that in the last TvZ I played. Killed 12 drones, but I lost all of my hellions and thus all my map control as well. The zerg had gone for an early third and still managed to stop my following marine tank push at his natural with queens, lings and drones, that even though it did a lot of damage, still had me behind in army count, worker count and expansion count. Losing all of your hellions for 10-15 ish drones isn't worth it if the zerg goes for that early of a third. Footnote: My tank push was a full minute delayed, and I might have been able to hold it and won if I had brought some SCVs along and made bunkers as I normally do, but I did get 5+ overlords for free on my way there since they had a bad rally. So what your saying is, you want to kill zerg flat out with hellions in the first 5 minutes. And people wonder why blizzard wants to buff zerg early game. I'm saying it's not worth sacrificing your hellions to kill 10 drones. You should have your eyes checked. Killing more then 10-15 drones (like you said) will just simply cripple the zerg to much they will just die, its basicly half of their worker's at that stage. My eyes are fine, your number's are not however. 10 drones is not a bad trade off depending how many hellions you use. Also, I still don't see how I'm saying that I want to kill the zerg flat out with hellions in the first 5 minutes.
Because you said its not worth it if you dont kill more then 15 drones, that kind of imply's you mean around 20+, and if you kill 20 drones or more, its obvious the game will almost be over.
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On June 27 2012 08:04 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:00 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 07:55 Reaps wrote:On June 27 2012 07:52 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 07:49 Reaps wrote:On June 27 2012 07:48 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. I did that in the last TvZ I played. Killed 12 drones, but I lost all of my hellions and thus all my map control as well. The zerg had gone for an early third and still managed to stop my following marine tank push at his natural with queens, lings and drones, that even though it did a lot of damage, still had me behind in army count, worker count and expansion count. Losing all of your hellions for 10-15 ish drones isn't worth it if the zerg goes for that early of a third. Footnote: My tank push was a full minute delayed, and I might have been able to hold it and won if I had brought some SCVs along and made bunkers as I normally do, but I did get 5+ overlords for free on my way there since they had a bad rally. So what your saying is, you want to kill zerg flat out with hellions in the first 5 minutes. And people wonder why blizzard wants to buff zerg early game. I'm saying it's not worth sacrificing your hellions to kill 10 drones. You should have your eyes checked. Killing more then 10-15 drones (like you said) will just simply cripple the zerg to much they will just die, its basicly half of their worker's at that stage. My eyes are fine, your number's are not however. 10 drones is not a bad trade off depending how many hellions you use. Also, I still don't see how I'm saying that I want to kill the zerg flat out with hellions in the first 5 minutes. Because you said its not worth it if you dont kill more then 15 drones, that kind of imply's you mean around 20+, and if you kill 20 drones or more, its obvious the game will almost be over.
So if I say that it's not worth sacrificing your hellions unless you kill 20+ drones it means that I want to end the game in 5 minutes?
+ Show Spoiler +What I'm actually saying is that it's not worth sacrificing your hellions.
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On June 27 2012 08:02 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues.
Hellions move faster then queens, even on creep, maybe you should use the speed instead of giving up and come whining on forum about it.
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On June 27 2012 08:01 Reaps wrote:
Pointless arguement really, you have valid points and so do i, it really could go on forever.
This whole thread is pointless though IMO. Told myself to not get involved, my bad.
If this thread was pointless, I think it would be closed by now. You don't see a problem with a nearly 75% w/l rate for tvz in gstl? I think you should have stopped before you comment on the veracity of the thread.
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On June 27 2012 08:08 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:01 Reaps wrote:
Pointless arguement really, you have valid points and so do i, it really could go on forever.
This whole thread is pointless though IMO. Told myself to not get involved, my bad. If this thread was pointless, I think it would be closed by now. You don't see a problem with a nearly 75% w/l rate for tvz in gstl? I think you should have stopped before you comment on the veracity of the thread.
Yeah just like 100% win rate for terrans in the GSL this morning.
But carry on.
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On June 27 2012 08:06 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:02 SirPinky wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues. Hellions move faster then queens, even on creep, maybe you should use the speed instead of giving up and come whining on forum about it.
Obviously you dont play terran. Did you miss the part where you have to stop to shoot? I didnt know there were such things as helion drive-bys.
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On June 27 2012 07:42 Cocoba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 07:05 forsooth wrote:On June 27 2012 06:59 Cocoba wrote:
The queen nerf is one of the most dramatic changes in a long time. It completely has given the zerg the advantage over terrans now. Zerg's can play super greedy and just force late game. However, that new marine maruader style that Demuslim was using against Ret looked pretty strong for Terrans so maybe it was a good thing as a new style came from this? Anything that makes Terran focus on bio in yet another matchup is bad for the game. I'm so sick of MMM, but it's like Blizzard is determined to make every Terran use it in every matchup. Well with what they have released for HoTS, I think it's gonna make you a very happy panda.
Yeah, I played quite a lot of HotS at MLG and thoroughly enjoyed crushing one of my friends who plays Protoss with mech three consecutive games.
As for queens, right now TvPish bio pressure seems to be the only reasonable means of bullying them around a bit, which is annoying. It's pretty uncool how much investment into non-economy stuff you have to make in order to just keep the map from turning purple these days, let alone stop the droning. Turbolords have helped scouting immensely, let's revert the queen change and see where things go now that Zerg can see what Terran is up to more easily.
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On June 27 2012 08:10 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:06 Reaps wrote:On June 27 2012 08:02 SirPinky wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues. Hellions move faster then queens, even on creep, maybe you should use the speed instead of giving up and come whining on forum about it. Obviously you dont play terran. Did you miss the part where you have to stop to shoot? I didnt know there were such things as helion drive-bys.
Yes hence why you go behind the mineral line and other places where the queens are not.
Jeez geuss i need to dumb myself down as much as possible for you. Disapointed in myself for getting into pointless arguements with whiners, just cant win!
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On June 27 2012 08:02 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues.
I still don't understand why you think it's ok to be able to drive into your opponents base and potentially kill him outright for the cost of 400 minerals.
Forgive Zerg players for thinking they should be able to at least do a bit of damage to the four ultra fast aoe damage units which are roasting their precious drones.
Are you really that delusional that you find it unjust that Zerg can actually now do some damage to Hellions in the event of a run by?
It's not like the Queens which are at the perimeter of the Zerg territory are capable of keeping up with Hellions that drive past them. Unless you drive yourself into a choke and get blocked off by some slow lings or drones, you're highly likely to kill enough Drones that the Hellions have paid for themselves.
People are still completely hung up on the Queen range being responsible for all of this when there's a whole lot more at work.
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On June 27 2012 08:14 avc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:02 SirPinky wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues. I still don't understand why you think it's ok to be able to drive into your opponents base and potentially kill him outright for the cost of 400 minerals. Forgive Zerg players for thinking they should be able to at least do a bit of damage to the four ultra fast aoe damage units which are roasting their precious drones. Are you really that delusional that you find it unjust that Zerg can actually now do some damage to Hellions in the event of a run by? It's not like the Queens which are at the perimeter of the Zerg territory are capable of keeping up with Hellions that drive past them. Unless you drive yourself into a choke and get blocked off by some slow lings or drones, you're highly likely to kill enough Drones that the Hellions have paid for themselves. People are still completely hung up on the Queen range being responsible for all of this when there's a whole lot more at work.
Letting hellions get into your main is a fuckup on the level of having your supply depots lowered when speedlings run into your main. It wasn't hard to block your ramp off with queens and walloff with evo chambers and one spine crawler previously, and if done correctly, it did stop hellions effectively.
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On June 27 2012 07:43 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote + The two balance whines are very different. When Zergs started, they failed to learn to adapt and instead opted for hand-outs from Blizzard. It amazes me when perfectly nice people - who would never normally dream of deploying racial slurs or misogynistic comments - make such bigoted statements without batting an eyelid. Please, think before you attribute blanket stupidity and a lack of moral fibre to an entire group based on their arbitrary choice of RTS race. Perhaps if you'd actually been one of those Zergs, trying to adapt, you'd appreciate what a sparse and oddly-shaped toolbox we were handed to begin with, and what an uphill struggle it was to try and make those tools cope with each new build that emerged from behind the Terran fortifications. It bears saying again: go look through the strategy forum and you'll see that virtually all TvZ and ZvT guides or discussions concerned Terran builds.
agree. any lack of adaptation from the zerg was due to bad design from blizzard.
tell me how you adapt to the following imbalances as a zerg player:
1. 2 rax pressure or 4 gate off close spawns on LT, DQ, Meta, Steppes
2. marine tank push off close spawns with tanks on high ground off meta or gold base area for LT
3. tank drop over natural cliff on LT
4. reaper, tank, vikings over natural cliff on kulas ravine
5. planetary at gold on xel naga caverns
u cant even compare the level of imbalances zergs have had to put up with in the past. and wasnt there barely any zergs in last season GSL prepatch? and now the racial balance for this season's ro16 looks pretty good and still terran favored. but then terran players' reason is that's only because all the zerg players fell out of code S. umm then does that mean zerg needed a buff or they just all sucked?
prepatch, it was TvZ favored and now postpatch it's ZvT favored (although maybe a bit more). these are one of the few instances where it's ever been ZvT favored so just deal with it. for now zerg players will enjoy the racial imbalance and all your tears lol. its so amusing watching all the terran players complain and predict in GSL that all zergs advance etc. yes, its imbalanced but the better player will still always win ie. fruitdealer in GSL Open 1. I'll enjoy watching symbol trash everyone and watch all the terran tears. protoss will probably jump on the Zerg OP bandwagon with terrans even though P>Z right now due to 2 base pushes being OP.
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