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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 27 2012 08:17 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:14 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 08:02 SirPinky wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues. I still don't understand why you think it's ok to be able to drive into your opponents base and potentially kill him outright for the cost of 400 minerals. Forgive Zerg players for thinking they should be able to at least do a bit of damage to the four ultra fast aoe damage units which are roasting their precious drones. Are you really that delusional that you find it unjust that Zerg can actually now do some damage to Hellions in the event of a run by? It's not like the Queens which are at the perimeter of the Zerg territory are capable of keeping up with Hellions that drive past them. Unless you drive yourself into a choke and get blocked off by some slow lings or drones, you're highly likely to kill enough Drones that the Hellions have paid for themselves. People are still completely hung up on the Queen range being responsible for all of this when there's a whole lot more at work. Letting hellions get into your main is a fuckup on the level of having your supply depots lowered when speedlings run into your main. It wasn't hard to block your ramp off with queens and walloff with evo chambers and one spine crawler previously, and if done correctly, it did stop hellions effectively.
And yet zergs still died quite a bit, i remember Nestea dieing through it back in previous season GSL.
But hey, i guess he is just an idiot right.
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The problem never seemed to be queens but how much larva the inject gave them that allows them to race to 200/200 so fast or to recoup on lost drones in a half-minute. The whole problem with inject is magnified by increase in queen efficacy vs hellions and even Zealots to an extent. I know this isn't pvz but same concept applies, the slowdown to Zerg caused by P investing in zealots is drastically different than it used to be because these confrontations occur early enough in the game that they're only between small numbers of these units. A range increase by 2 to a single unit usually seen in a scenario where 3 of these units typically take on 3-4 other units is a huge change.
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On June 27 2012 08:19 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:17 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 08:14 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 08:02 SirPinky wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues. I still don't understand why you think it's ok to be able to drive into your opponents base and potentially kill him outright for the cost of 400 minerals. Forgive Zerg players for thinking they should be able to at least do a bit of damage to the four ultra fast aoe damage units which are roasting their precious drones. Are you really that delusional that you find it unjust that Zerg can actually now do some damage to Hellions in the event of a run by? It's not like the Queens which are at the perimeter of the Zerg territory are capable of keeping up with Hellions that drive past them. Unless you drive yourself into a choke and get blocked off by some slow lings or drones, you're highly likely to kill enough Drones that the Hellions have paid for themselves. People are still completely hung up on the Queen range being responsible for all of this when there's a whole lot more at work. Letting hellions get into your main is a fuckup on the level of having your supply depots lowered when speedlings run into your main. It wasn't hard to block your ramp off with queens and walloff with evo chambers and one spine crawler previously, and if done correctly, it did stop hellions effectively. And yet zergs still died quite a bit, i remember Nestea dieing through it back in previous season GSL. But hey, i guess he is just an idiot right.
I've seen MVP die to earlygame speedling rushes because he has his supply depots lowered. This probably happens to MVP more than any other player in fact, lol. I don't consider him an idiot or bad for it, nor do I want speedlings nerfed or supply depots buffed for it. A mistake is a mistake. Something the player can fix without having Blizzard babysit him.
Edit: In fact, I'm sure if you think about it you can recall several times where speedlings got into the terrans main/production because he fucked up and supply depots were lowered at that instant. Speedlings in your main that early on is just as game ending as hellions. Would you want the game to be changed because of mistakes like that? If the queen change was because hellions could potentially end the game if the zerg wasn't blocking his ramp properly, it makes the patch even more retarded than I previously thought.
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On June 27 2012 08:09 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:08 SirPinky wrote:On June 27 2012 08:01 Reaps wrote:
Pointless arguement really, you have valid points and so do i, it really could go on forever.
This whole thread is pointless though IMO. Told myself to not get involved, my bad. If this thread was pointless, I think it would be closed by now. You don't see a problem with a nearly 75% w/l rate for tvz in gstl? I think you should have stopped before you comment on the veracity of the thread. Yeah just like 100% win rate for terrans in the GSL this morning. But carry on.
GSTL stats arent as relevant as u think because its a bo1. remember when zerg was rarely even used in GSTL because they were so weak?
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On June 27 2012 08:17 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:14 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 08:02 SirPinky wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues. I still don't understand why you think it's ok to be able to drive into your opponents base and potentially kill him outright for the cost of 400 minerals. Forgive Zerg players for thinking they should be able to at least do a bit of damage to the four ultra fast aoe damage units which are roasting their precious drones. Are you really that delusional that you find it unjust that Zerg can actually now do some damage to Hellions in the event of a run by? It's not like the Queens which are at the perimeter of the Zerg territory are capable of keeping up with Hellions that drive past them. Unless you drive yourself into a choke and get blocked off by some slow lings or drones, you're highly likely to kill enough Drones that the Hellions have paid for themselves. People are still completely hung up on the Queen range being responsible for all of this when there's a whole lot more at work. Letting hellions get into your main is a fuckup on the level of having your supply depots lowered when speedlings run into your main. It wasn't hard to block your ramp off with queens and walloff with evo chambers and one spine crawler previously, and if done correctly, it did stop hellions effectively.
I completely agree with you. I'm a former 5 consecutive season GM. And I think the people that are presenting this "helion run-by trade-off" arguement are either low masters or less. Which, one of the rules of TL, is not to present information if you are not completely experienced in the subject matter. Please post replays of pros doing the helion run-by in this recent patch. The only thing they are good for now are timing pushes and maybe queen harass, unless the zerg goes mass queens (which they commonly do now).
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On June 27 2012 08:24 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:09 Reaps wrote:On June 27 2012 08:08 SirPinky wrote:On June 27 2012 08:01 Reaps wrote:
Pointless arguement really, you have valid points and so do i, it really could go on forever.
This whole thread is pointless though IMO. Told myself to not get involved, my bad. If this thread was pointless, I think it would be closed by now. You don't see a problem with a nearly 75% w/l rate for tvz in gstl? I think you should have stopped before you comment on the veracity of the thread. Yeah just like 100% win rate for terrans in the GSL this morning. But carry on. GSTL stats arent as relevant as u think because its a bo1. remember when zerg was rarely even used in GSTL because they were so weak?
I said GSL unless you are refering to the other guy
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Ok.
I have an idea for a change that I think would really fix the terran late game.
Buff nukes.
Make nukes a more castable spell. Lower energy cross, lower AOE area, lower damage.
Please give this idea a chance in terms of how it would affect the match-ups. I think this would be a cool change, and not just because it would be a buff (you could adjust values).
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On June 27 2012 08:10 SirPinky wrote:
Obviously you dont play terran. Did you miss the part where you have to stop to shoot? I didnt know there were such things as helion drive-bys.
With all due respect, I think he missed the part where Hellions have to suicide themselves.
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On June 27 2012 08:27 Orbifold wrote:
Ok.
I have an idea for a change that I think would really fix the terran late game.
Buff nukes.
Make nukes a more castable spell. Lower energy cross, lower AOE area, lower damage.
Please give this idea a chance in terms of how it would affect the match-ups. I think this would be a cool change, and not just because it would be a buff (you could adjust values).
Or just go queen range to 4 instead of 5, and reach a middle ground on snipe damage against no psionic, to the middle of what it is, and what it was. Make ghosts the viable late game solution in TvZ. But not that you need only 8-10, make it so we need 15 or so to be effective -- along with vikings, marines, marauders, medics, thors. Tanks get ass raped late game by broods and ultras.
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On June 27 2012 08:27 Orbifold wrote:
Ok.
I have an idea for a change that I think would really fix the terran late game.
Buff nukes.
Make nukes a more castable spell. Lower energy cross, lower AOE area, lower damage.
Please give this idea a chance in terms of how it would affect the match-ups. I think this would be a cool change, and not just because it would be a buff (you could adjust values).
Doesn't "buff" usually mean make stronger, and "nerf" mean make weaker?
Also, by "energy cross" do you mean cooldown?
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On June 27 2012 08:21 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:19 Assirra wrote:On June 27 2012 08:17 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 08:14 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 08:02 SirPinky wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues. I still don't understand why you think it's ok to be able to drive into your opponents base and potentially kill him outright for the cost of 400 minerals. Forgive Zerg players for thinking they should be able to at least do a bit of damage to the four ultra fast aoe damage units which are roasting their precious drones. Are you really that delusional that you find it unjust that Zerg can actually now do some damage to Hellions in the event of a run by? It's not like the Queens which are at the perimeter of the Zerg territory are capable of keeping up with Hellions that drive past them. Unless you drive yourself into a choke and get blocked off by some slow lings or drones, you're highly likely to kill enough Drones that the Hellions have paid for themselves. People are still completely hung up on the Queen range being responsible for all of this when there's a whole lot more at work. Letting hellions get into your main is a fuckup on the level of having your supply depots lowered when speedlings run into your main. It wasn't hard to block your ramp off with queens and walloff with evo chambers and one spine crawler previously, and if done correctly, it did stop hellions effectively. And yet zergs still died quite a bit, i remember Nestea dieing through it back in previous season GSL. But hey, i guess he is just an idiot right. I've seen MVP die to earlygame speedling rushes because he has his supply depots lowered. This probably happens to MVP more than any other player in fact, lol. I don't consider him an idiot or bad for it, nor do I want speedlings nerfed or supply depots buffed for it. A mistake is a mistake. Something the player can fix without having Blizzard babysit him. Edit: In fact, I'm sure if you think about it you can recall several times where speedlings got into the terrans main/production because he fucked up and supply depots were lowered at that instant. Speedlings in your main that early on is just as game ending as hellions. Would you want the game to be changed because of mistakes like that? If the queen change was because hellions could potentially end the game if the zerg wasn't blocking his ramp properly, it makes the patch even more retarded than I previously thought.
Just wanted to add that sometimes it is not blatantly forgetting it, but keeping it in mind, microing your units to their fullest intent, and when you try to raise the depots, you notice your units standing on top of it. <.<
Anyways, some european progamer (sry, forgot who) claimed on TL that if Terran will now consistently loose against Zergs and won't find a solution in near or middle future, then it is not a sign that the queen is imba. The queen change mainly affects the early game, maybe the late game due to the creep spread, however I think a zerg might be able to defend his tumors with a handfull of roaches without great cost. What has to be looked at then is the late game.
It cannot be that a matchup relies on mistakes of one player (like hellion runbys which happened far too often), so that it becomes balanced statistically. Demuslim brought it to the point when he said that a matchup might be slightly favoured to one race in the early game, but then it should be slightly favoured to the other race in the mid game and both should be even in the late game.
Anyways, winrates right now are not really good for terrans, but I would still wait to see what might come out of it. Only one month is not enough to draw conclusions.
On June 27 2012 08:33 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:27 Orbifold wrote:
Ok.
I have an idea for a change that I think would really fix the terran late game.
Buff nukes.
Make nukes a more castable spell. Lower energy cross, lower AOE area, lower damage.
Please give this idea a chance in terms of how it would affect the match-ups. I think this would be a cool change, and not just because it would be a buff (you could adjust values). Or just go queen range to 4 instead of 5, and reach a middle ground on snipe damage against no psionic, to the middle of what it is, and what it was. Make ghosts the viable late game solution in TvZ. But not that you need only 8-10, make it so we need 15 or so to be effective -- along with vikings, marines, marauders, medics, thors. Tanks get ass raped late game by broods and ultras.
If I may be off-topic for a while, the hardest victim to stomach in the ghost nerf was definitely the loss of ghost openers in TvT... 
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Every argument about how T's are whiners usually ends with a whine about how Z was SO UP for so long...what a joke.
The game was a month old and had the majority of terran players.
It's a whole different ballgame now, SC2 is fairly "figured out" at this point.
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On June 27 2012 05:38 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote:
Having said all that, I think sure, Queens are a lot stronger now and Overlord speed is great, but c'mon Terrans stop crying a bit. Yeah we get it, you feel like the red-haired step child and want a buff, but just suck it up and find a way to deal with it in the meantime. Every race has periods were they get stomped on for a while due to this or that, just try not to cry so damn much christ it's embarrasing.
Actually, back in the day most Terrans would mock me or tell me to stfu when I was pissed about bad Zerg maps like Lost Temple and most of the Terrans would just act like cocky assholes, so really I don't have much sympathy, karma is a bitch.
PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess. A couple of pointers. 1. The terrans who told you to stop crying back in the day had a point for these reasons. The game was still new and undeveloped enough that anything could happen, and literally no one knew what the future entailed. It was pretty much accepted that the game was in its infancy and that Blizzard would eventually make it better where it was needed. 2. The terrans crying now do it because Blizzard actually made the matchup worse, in every single way. I don't care about statistical balance or if the GSL has 30 terrans, protosses or zergs, as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular. 3. There is a difference in POVs between the terrans who currently struggle and the zergs who struggled back then. Zergs back then KNEW that as long as they could deal with the earlygame shit terrans could throw at them, they could get into a good mid and lategame. Terrans don't have that. It's in the zergs advantage the entire way right now because of the queen buff. You need to play your absolute best and hope that the opponent doesn't play his absolute best. I could consider BC/Raven compositions to be terrans endgame and something for them to look forward to, but it's still too early for that.
Alright, it's counterpoint time.
1. Sure you can say that, but relatively speaking the game is still very very young, we have 2 more expansions on the way and nothing has changed in regards to the whole "anything can happen" approach. Nobody knows what the future will ential and the game is still in it's infancy and Blizzard will still improve the game as is needed.
2. So basically with this point, all balance and statistics aside your entire argument is that the matchup isn't fun for you. Well then, my counterpoint is that I wholly enjoy the matchup even if Terrans think it's imbalanced. So, your opinion that the matchup is NOT fun is basically cancelled out with my opinion that the matchup IS fun. Of course, ultimately simply little opinions like this mean basically nothing in the first place but I'm humoring you.
3. My counterpoint here is that I don't think your statement is true at all. Zergs back in the day had no such assurance that they would have some sort of advantage in the mid-late game at all. It was really more of a mindset of "Oh gee I hope I can make it to the lategame where I have a fighting chance to win rather than just get completely raped like I do in the early game."
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On June 27 2012 07:43 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote + The two balance whines are very different. When Zergs started, they failed to learn to adapt and instead opted for hand-outs from Blizzard. It amazes me when perfectly nice people - who would never normally dream of deploying racial slurs or misogynistic comments - make such bigoted statements without batting an eyelid. Please, think before you attribute blanket stupidity and a lack of moral fibre to an entire group based on their arbitrary choice of RTS race. Perhaps if you'd actually been one of those Zergs, trying to adapt, you'd appreciate what a sparse and oddly-shaped toolbox we were handed to begin with, and what an uphill struggle it was to try and make those tools cope with each new build that emerged from behind the Terran fortifications. It bears saying again: go look through the strategy forum and you'll see that virtually all TvZ and ZvT guides or discussions concerned Terran builds.
yes, and I should say I was Z for the first year (note: I didn't switch because of ZvT/TvZ)
and I should say equally bad statements are said by people on the "other" side (by zergs saying really really stupid comments like "it's our turn to be OP" or something in this type of game anyways)
2. So basically with this point, all balance and statistics aside your entire argument is that the matchup isn't fun for you. Well then, my counterpoint is that I wholly enjoy the matchup even if Terrans think it's imbalanced. So, your opinion that the matchup is NOT fun is basically cancelled out with my opinion that the matchup IS fun. Of course, ultimately simply little opinions like this mean basically nothing in the first place but I'm humoring you.
the ZvT/TvZ matchup is so boring to watch. Soooooooooooo boring to watch, about as boring as watching PvZ/ZvP.
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On June 27 2012 08:21 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:19 Assirra wrote:On June 27 2012 08:17 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 08:14 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 08:02 SirPinky wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues. I still don't understand why you think it's ok to be able to drive into your opponents base and potentially kill him outright for the cost of 400 minerals. Forgive Zerg players for thinking they should be able to at least do a bit of damage to the four ultra fast aoe damage units which are roasting their precious drones. Are you really that delusional that you find it unjust that Zerg can actually now do some damage to Hellions in the event of a run by? It's not like the Queens which are at the perimeter of the Zerg territory are capable of keeping up with Hellions that drive past them. Unless you drive yourself into a choke and get blocked off by some slow lings or drones, you're highly likely to kill enough Drones that the Hellions have paid for themselves. People are still completely hung up on the Queen range being responsible for all of this when there's a whole lot more at work. Letting hellions get into your main is a fuckup on the level of having your supply depots lowered when speedlings run into your main. It wasn't hard to block your ramp off with queens and walloff with evo chambers and one spine crawler previously, and if done correctly, it did stop hellions effectively. And yet zergs still died quite a bit, i remember Nestea dieing through it back in previous season GSL. But hey, i guess he is just an idiot right. I've seen MVP die to earlygame speedling rushes because he has his supply depots lowered. This probably happens to MVP more than any other player in fact, lol. I don't consider him an idiot or bad for it, nor do I want speedlings nerfed or supply depots buffed for it. A mistake is a mistake. Something the player can fix without having Blizzard babysit him. Edit: In fact, I'm sure if you think about it you can recall several times where speedlings got into the terrans main/production because he fucked up and supply depots were lowered at that instant. Speedlings in your main that early on is just as game ending as hellions. Would you want the game to be changed because of mistakes like that? If the queen change was because hellions could potentially end the game if the zerg wasn't blocking his ramp properly, it makes the patch even more retarded than I previously thought.
You know, back in the days of 1 gate expanding in PvZ on bad maps, I used to regularly lose games because I'd look away from my natural to build a pylon, and 20 speedlings would run into my Sentries, thus ending the game on the spot. Until I'd finished my simcity, I'd have to be ready to react instantly; and it wasn't just me, cause high-level players would also lose like that occasionally. And you know what? Nobody complained.
On a similar note, during the blue flame hellion craze of spring 2011, when TvT was basically mech vs mech almost every game, you'd instantly see Terrans start to simcity their mains, naturals, thirds, walling off mineral lines and shit. And when Terrans would open reactor Hellion against Protoss on TDA, how often would you see hellions simply driving into the natural uncontested?
I just don't get what is so difficult about building a wall with a spinecrawler behind it and sticking a Queen into the gap. Sure, sometimes you'll see players fuck up and lose the game (Morrow at DHS stands out as a particularly painful example). But it's all preventable with a bare minimum of effort. Seriously, stop whining about hellion runbys.
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On June 27 2012 08:51 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 05:38 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote:
Having said all that, I think sure, Queens are a lot stronger now and Overlord speed is great, but c'mon Terrans stop crying a bit. Yeah we get it, you feel like the red-haired step child and want a buff, but just suck it up and find a way to deal with it in the meantime. Every race has periods were they get stomped on for a while due to this or that, just try not to cry so damn much christ it's embarrasing.
Actually, back in the day most Terrans would mock me or tell me to stfu when I was pissed about bad Zerg maps like Lost Temple and most of the Terrans would just act like cocky assholes, so really I don't have much sympathy, karma is a bitch.
PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess. A couple of pointers. 1. The terrans who told you to stop crying back in the day had a point for these reasons. The game was still new and undeveloped enough that anything could happen, and literally no one knew what the future entailed. It was pretty much accepted that the game was in its infancy and that Blizzard would eventually make it better where it was needed. 2. The terrans crying now do it because Blizzard actually made the matchup worse, in every single way. I don't care about statistical balance or if the GSL has 30 terrans, protosses or zergs, as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular. 3. There is a difference in POVs between the terrans who currently struggle and the zergs who struggled back then. Zergs back then KNEW that as long as they could deal with the earlygame shit terrans could throw at them, they could get into a good mid and lategame. Terrans don't have that. It's in the zergs advantage the entire way right now because of the queen buff. You need to play your absolute best and hope that the opponent doesn't play his absolute best. I could consider BC/Raven compositions to be terrans endgame and something for them to look forward to, but it's still too early for that. Alright, it's counterpoint time. 1. Sure you can say that, but relatively speaking the game is still very very young, we have 2 more expansions on the way and nothing has changed in regards to the whole "anything can happen" approach. Nobody knows what the future will ential and the game is still in it's infancy and Blizzard will still improve the game as is needed. 2. So basically with this point, all balance and statistics aside your entire argument is that the matchup isn't fun for you. Well then, my counterpoint is that I wholly enjoy the matchup even if Terrans think it's imbalanced. So, your opinion that the matchup is NOT fun is basically cancelled out with my opinion that the matchup IS fun. Of course, ultimately simply little opinions like this mean basically nothing in the first place but I'm humoring you. 3. My counterpoint here is that I don't think your statement is true at all. Zergs back in the day had no such assurance that they would have some sort of advantage in the mid-late game at all. It was really more of a mindset of "Oh gee I hope I can make it to the lategame where I have a fighting chance to win rather than just get completely raped like I do in the early game."
1. only applies when the expansion is already here. Until then, it's a no point. SC2 might have new ideas coming in, but the scene is established, the best players are established and the metagame is established, and we can use history and experience to be able to analyze current situations and changes better. Back then none of these factors were present.
2. I'm sure you enjoy the matchup, and I might as well if I played zerg. However I don't think it's unfair to say that the matchup is worse off because of the change, and considering what we gained with the change (zergs have to try less hard to defend against hellions I guess?) to a previously balanced matchup and what we had to give up to get it. I didn't mind all the trillion bunker nerfs that terrans got even though Blizzard might have gone overboard in combination with larger maps, because they made the matchup better overall. This change? No positive change whatsoever. I don't think I'm the only one feeling this way, since there hasn't been this much of an uproar over a change since ever, and the uproar is cross race.
3. Whether it was wrong or not, it was generally considered that zergs had the super lategame going for them even back then due to the larva mechanics. They did have something to look forward too when they worked at surviving. At the moment as a terran, your thought process is basically "oh, I didn't cripple him the first ten minutes, it's time to slowly die unless he goes full retard."
On June 27 2012 08:56 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:21 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 08:19 Assirra wrote:On June 27 2012 08:17 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 08:14 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 08:02 SirPinky wrote:On June 27 2012 07:42 Reaps wrote:
You know guys, you can always run past the queens with your hellions and roast some drones. LOL you kidding me...Lets see... roast maybe 5-6 drones max (with maybe 4 helions) from a gassless zerg with 4-5 queens, Not only is that completely cost inefficient but now you lost all map control, creep spread removal, and zergs ability to take a fast 3rd and drone like crazy (but it seems they do this anyway regardless of run-bys thanks to the buff). Maybe you missed the part queens have 5 range, which makes it impossible for helions not to take some level of damage. Any "drone roasts" are a mineral-wasting suicide mission by Terran unless your play on the diamond or lower leagues. I still don't understand why you think it's ok to be able to drive into your opponents base and potentially kill him outright for the cost of 400 minerals. Forgive Zerg players for thinking they should be able to at least do a bit of damage to the four ultra fast aoe damage units which are roasting their precious drones. Are you really that delusional that you find it unjust that Zerg can actually now do some damage to Hellions in the event of a run by? It's not like the Queens which are at the perimeter of the Zerg territory are capable of keeping up with Hellions that drive past them. Unless you drive yourself into a choke and get blocked off by some slow lings or drones, you're highly likely to kill enough Drones that the Hellions have paid for themselves. People are still completely hung up on the Queen range being responsible for all of this when there's a whole lot more at work. Letting hellions get into your main is a fuckup on the level of having your supply depots lowered when speedlings run into your main. It wasn't hard to block your ramp off with queens and walloff with evo chambers and one spine crawler previously, and if done correctly, it did stop hellions effectively. And yet zergs still died quite a bit, i remember Nestea dieing through it back in previous season GSL. But hey, i guess he is just an idiot right. I've seen MVP die to earlygame speedling rushes because he has his supply depots lowered. This probably happens to MVP more than any other player in fact, lol. I don't consider him an idiot or bad for it, nor do I want speedlings nerfed or supply depots buffed for it. A mistake is a mistake. Something the player can fix without having Blizzard babysit him. Edit: In fact, I'm sure if you think about it you can recall several times where speedlings got into the terrans main/production because he fucked up and supply depots were lowered at that instant. Speedlings in your main that early on is just as game ending as hellions. Would you want the game to be changed because of mistakes like that? If the queen change was because hellions could potentially end the game if the zerg wasn't blocking his ramp properly, it makes the patch even more retarded than I previously thought. You know, back in the days of 1 gate expanding in PvZ on bad maps, I used to regularly lose games because I'd look away from my natural to build a pylon, and 20 speedlings would run into my Sentries, thus ending the game on the spot. Until I'd finished my simcity, I'd have to be ready to react instantly; and it wasn't just me, cause high-level players would also lose like that occasionally. And you know what? Nobody complained. On a similar note, during the blue flame hellion craze of spring 2011, when TvT was basically mech vs mech almost every game, you'd instantly see Terrans start to simcity their mains, naturals, thirds, walling off mineral lines and shit. And when Terrans would open reactor Hellion against Protoss on TDA, how often would you see hellions simply driving into the natural uncontested? I just don't get what is so difficult about building a wall with a spinecrawler behind it and sticking a Queen into the gap. Sure, sometimes you'll see players fuck up and lose the game (Morrow at DHS stands out as a particularly painful example). But it's all preventable with a bare minimum of effort. Seriously, stop whining about hellion runbys.
Pretty much. If the queen buff was purely for the sake of helping out against hellions potentially getting into your main because you fucked up a walloff, it'd be pretty much the same level of a stupid change as to make force fields bigger because protosses missclicked a force field at their ramp at a crucial timing. It's a change that has massive changes past it's purpose, and dramatically changes the entire matchup, just like larger force fields would.
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On June 27 2012 08:27 Orbifold wrote:
Ok.
I have an idea for a change that I think would really fix the terran late game.
Buff nukes.
Make nukes a more castable spell. Lower energy cross, lower AOE area, lower damage.
Please give this idea a chance in terms of how it would affect the match-ups. I think this would be a cool change, and not just because it would be a buff (you could adjust values).
That might be an interesting idea for HotS, maybe the Ghost Academy could switch out the tactical nuke for something like 2-4 smaller missiles with a shorter land time and lower damage, that way it would be less of an all-or nothing kind of thing. I know that lategame mass nukes are decently hard to avoid consistenly, but that idea might be a little more interesting. They would still stack with multiple ghosts, of course, so there's that. Not solving a balance issue, it just sounds more fun.
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I think it would be good to let this thread run a few more days to let people tie off loose ends, but that this thread should be closed before too long.
It's not a matter of this thread being 123 pages. It's because through this thread, the OP subject has been well and thoroughly covered with legitimate and extensive explanations made by both sides. There's not too much left to be said that hasn't already been said.
People are starting to repeat themselves, and I think there is little of value in going back over the same territory that has already been so well covered. There's not much more than argument and disagreement left (as opposed to bringing up new points for consideration in a peaceful manner.)
There's some posters that insist on ignoring what others have written - but then, that's always going to be the case on any forum. Those posters' concerns will never be resolved, so may as well leave it.
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1. only applies when the expansion is already here. Until then, it's a no point. SC2 might have new ideas coming in, but the scene is established, the best players are established and the metagame is established, and we can use history and experience to be able to analyze current situations and changes better. Back then none of these factors were present.
2. I'm sure you enjoy the matchup, and I might as well if I played zerg. However I don't think it's unfair to say that the matchup is worse off because of the change, and considering what we gained with the change (zergs have to try less hard to defend against hellions I guess?) to a previously balanced matchup and what we had to give up to get it. I didn't mind all the trillion bunker nerfs that terrans got even though Blizzard might have gone overboard in combination with larger maps, because they made the matchup better overall. This change? No positive change whatsoever. I don't think I'm the only one feeling this way, since there hasn't been this much of an uproar over a change since ever, and the uproar is cross race.
3. Whether it was wrong or not, it was generally considered that zergs had the super lategame going for them even back then due to the larva mechanics. They did have something to look forward too when they worked at surviving. At the moment as a terran, your thought process is basically "oh, I didn't cripple him the first ten minutes, it's time to slowly die unless he goes full retard."
1. This makes no sense to me. That's like saying in the early days that we can't hope for new improvements until they actually release them? Lol. We already know 2 expansions are coming out, simple as that. You know 100% that there will be massive metagame shifts and unit composition changes, what is there to argue? My point is that it's NOT THAT BAD. Now you just enter into mid and lategame without easily being able to gain an advantage unless you do something clever, you can't simply do the exact same cookie-cutter build every game and have a very high chance of crippling your opponent...back in the early days Zergs had to worry about simply dying in the first 10 minutes of every single game...just let that sink in for a moment as you reflect upon how bad you guys have it now, lawl. Also, I'm still not convinced that Terrans simply don't require more build changes and strategy improvement, Terrans have been crying about this change since the day it came out and I really think that 90% of the people complaining have done hardly a thing to try and change their own play up in compensation. The only reason you see a difference between Terran complaints now and past Zerg complaints is because you are very, very biased.
2. Maybe you think there is no positives but I see plenty. For one, Zergs typically aren't dying nearly as often because one of their Queens was out of position by a quarter of an inch allowing Hellions to run by a gap the Zerg thought was covered. Secondly, ZvZ is greatly improved and a hell of a lot more fun now as well.
3. Actually Zergs still died all the time in the super late game vs Protoss and Terrans...so, your opinion is simply that, your opinion. Also, you seem to still think that Zerg has an advantage over Zerg in the late game but I really doubt that, Terrans can play late game just fine if they utilize their units properly and play it out right. I still almost never see Terrans build Ghosts, yet the few that do always make me happy to play against because their late game is 3x as hard to fight as a scrub Terran who refuses to build them even once.
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I have thought about this quite alot since i play terran, and i don't see a problem with the game being pushed towards more macro heavy styles in tvz with the zerg being able to take quick thirds. HOWEVER there is some things that terran cannot do at this time in the game, that dosen't allow terran to be playing on an equal foot against zerg in macro games.
- Every kind of 2 base pressure from terran the zerg can deal with, and still being able to take that early third. However terran cannot take an early third like zerg, and surrive a 2 base attack from the zerg.
- broodlord infestor corrupter makes the lategame heavily zerg favored since fungal growth make viking corrupter battles zerg favored, and the zerg can out produce the terran on air unless he commits ALOT of resources to starports while the zerg just makes air units out of hatcheries.
I really think they should buff thors air attack to do more damage against nonlight units so mech has an answer consisting of thor viking to be on a bit more equal footing with the z.
I also think they should reconsider the nerf on the ghosts snipe ability, so that will become a viable counter to hive tech again for bio type play.
And then again nerfing any type of 2 base pressure builds zerg can do, so terran can take a quick third without it being a coinflip.
just my opinion on how to fix tvz right now.
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EPT
