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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 26 2012 23:55 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 23:00 BeeNu wrote: think you're playing ZvP backwards. It's Protoss that has to do damage to Zerg, and Zerg who have the near unbeatable late game army unless they make a mistake and throw 20 Broodlords into a Vortex. That's why half the PvZs you see are 2 base all-ins by the Protoss. That's funny. Last major tournament I watched (was MLG maybe? I dunno) every time I saw a Protoss win a macro game it was with a Mothership. Every. Single. Time. Also, the reason Protoss do 2base all-ins nearly every game isn't because they can't win a macro game, it's because 2base all-ins are easier and still incredibly effective. On June 26 2012 22:54 HeroMystic wrote:On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote:
PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess. I find this hillarious because Protoss players have been saying for a long time that they have to do damage vs Zerg because their lategame army is unbeatable without a Mothership. To a degree that is true as well, but it all depends on how the game plays out. At different points in the game each race has to be doing damage to the other race unless the other person is going for certain tech routes which allow you to completely sit back and defend. Zerg does have good strength in the mid-lateish game, but like, really late game Protoss are stronger for the most part simply due to the Mothership. Although, mass Ultra/Baneling/Infestor seems like it could be a really strong composition and I haven't played with that too much myself since most of my ZvP don't go that late, but idk how it fares yet. Are you watching the same ZvP matches that I am watching? There are so many maps in the map pool that straight up favor Zerg against Protoss that you see a lot of two base all-ins because of it. Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana (to a degree) tend to push Protoss into 2-base allin mode because of the difficulty in securing a third base (or in Ohana's case the rush distance is kind of short so immortal pushes work well). Also, you know why you see a Mothership in every late game PvZ? Because its the only way Protoss can win. Secondly, Protoss is NOT stronger in the late game due to the Mothership. When a single spell can make or break you in the deciding factor of the game....that my friend is not strength. PS: How many Ultralisks have you seen in PvZ?
So....once again I have someone trying to refute what I'm saying by repeating the same thing I'm saying but adding a little bit of opinionated flare, rofl I love this community.
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Here's a quote from the IPL beastyqt interview stating his views on terran balance. The last paragraph is particularly important to this discussion.
Beastyqt: Haha, I'm just saying what everyone is thinking but they are afraid to say it because of the feedback (hating) from the community. But I was raised to say what I think and be honest about it. Problems that I complained about 6 months ago with TvP and the problem with zealots and warpgate late game still exists, and as everyone knows terran had 3 top 4 finishers in last 10 tournaments and won 0.
After the recent patch Blizzard introduced new unit called Queendralisks which kills anything that terran has up to 10 minutes into game allowing zerg to get on 3 base and get 70-80 drones with no problem, which then allows zerg to get tier 3 units at 13-14 minute into game and most of the time terran is simply not being able to deal with it unless you manage to deal damage to zerg economy through defences of queendralisks. It's obviously possible for terran to win vs both P and Z, its just..really hard at this point.
What I would change is maybe give terran tier 3 units, nerf warpgate and make it only defensive ability so that protoss wouldnt be able to warp 30 zealots in middle of fights while attacking you and I would agree with new unit queendralisk staying in game as long as GGlord/ infestor composition would be nerfed.
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On June 27 2012 05:07 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 03:36 zhurai wrote:On June 27 2012 03:22 Meff wrote:On June 27 2012 01:14 bLo0d wrote:On June 26 2012 23:44 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 22:31 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:29 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 21:06 Snowbear wrote:On June 26 2012 19:57 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 19:03 moki wrote:
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So just like how speedlings works in the early/midgame? That does not sound very unfair. Well, there are some differences between T and Z that make this actually quite different from a speedling contain. Here are a few: 1) Z needs to be ahead in bases to survive. 2 base against 2 base is considered being at an advantage for T. Wrong wrong wrong: infestor + hive can trade cost efficient with terran, so 3 base vs 3 base is perfectly possible. Please play the game at high masters or above, so you understand it. Instead of trying to bringing things on a personal, condescending level, why don't you take a moment to elaborate on what you're saying? That way this forum and specifically this thread could be used to improve somebody's understanding of the game, which seems much more constructive. ('sides, you don't really need to be high masters to know that infestors + broods or ultras can be cost efficient vT, but that's another issue) Specifically, I don't quite get how hive tech and infestors are relevant when discussing the differences between two early-midgame situations (a speedling contain on 2 bases and a hellion contain on 2 bases). Could you elaborate? Saying that Z does fine on hive tech 3b vs 3b doesn't quite imply that it does the same on hatch/lair tech for 2b vs 2b. Ling infestor isn't hive tech and replaces the muta ling baneling composition, and it works fine against marine tank or any equivalent mech force with some roaches mixed in I guess as needed. The additional benefits of this is that it lets you get upgrades earlier, tech faster, survive on less bases and is a lot easier to control. Yeah, I'm familiar with infestor/ling. Problem is, unilke infestor + hive (for which I agree that you can be cost-effective), I'm quite skeptical about the cost-effectiveness of infestor+ling, pre patch, against a standard marine/tank/medivac mix. Specifically, refer to  DRG vs  TheStC, first game of season 2 of the 2012 GSL, RO32. Here's a link, it doesn't require a pass: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67112I don't think that it gets much more standard than this game: reactor hellion opener from T, Z reacts by building a spine at the front and a few queens, delaying the third which starts to get constructed right as T's third OC lands (so: Z is actually behind on bases, and so far there have been no significant mistakes from either player). Z opts for the aforementioned ling+infestor composition, gets attacked by a pre-ultralisk timing push with marine/tank/medivac, pulls a relatively good surround but proceeds to lose the engagement and the game as a result. Now, I do realize that one game is not conclusive evidence. However, I also claim that having one of the best progamers in the world lose to somebody who then gets kicked out at the RO16 with exactly the composition/gameplan that is supposed to be the only one that is cost-efficient against T before hive tech is at least good evidence that it is hard for Z to be cost efficient enough with it if their third comes that late due to a hellion contain. Which... is exactly my point. The consequences of a hellion contain on two bases are huge, those of a speedling contain on two bases are T laughing at the wasted larvae and getting a freewin. It didn't work for DRG because going infestor off 2 bases is just not good. The reason the majority of Zergs went mutas was because it wasn't as gas intensive and it allowed for harass/denial of a landed third from Terran while Zerg secures their own third. Infestor ling is so good now because 6 gases can be acquired easily and 3 bases can be droned quickly, so there is no gas starve waiting for your third base and there is no tech transition out of mutas. You can just go straight to hive. The difference of infestor ling pre patch and post patch is due to the easy 3rd base. Of course DRG would be behind this game, he doesn't counteract the map control of the hellions with the mapcontrol and harass of mutas. Mutas were what allowed Zergs to make up for early lost map control. Well, assuming that the spire timing would have been the same as the lair completion one, it would have been put down at about the time when T landed his CC. That gives a lot of time to set up defense, so my best guess is that mutas would be useless in this scenario. Besides, going muta would have delayed his infestors, and hive as a consequence... and I'm pretty much convinced that a bad fight for ling+infestor would be even worse for muta+ling+infestor. Ling/bling/muta has already been mentioned: it's viable if Z can get ahead in bases (as the new queen buff allows), but on equal bases with a delay in acquiring them, it's a sure loss. So, to sum it up: it looks to me that a hellion contain hurts Z far too much. Short of rushing to lair and spreading creep with overlords to give your queens and spines mobility (which I haven't calculated the timings of, it looks silly but it might have worked), I can't think of any way for pre-patch Z to get a third at a comparable time with T. If it's not range 5 queens, then it's something else - but Z desperately needs a way not to be set so far behind when pressured with four hellions. idk. maybe use your larvae for something other than drones? 3 roaches end up costing 500/75 and 4.75 larvae (assuming that you didn't want a warren anyway), as well as forcing you to get gas earlier. We're at about the level of three or four workers and the macro hatchery, all to be able to take a quicker third. I doubt that it ends up better than what DRG did.
nah these terran whiners know way more about ZvT than DRG.
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On June 27 2012 05:29 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 05:07 Meff wrote:On June 27 2012 03:36 zhurai wrote:On June 27 2012 03:22 Meff wrote:On June 27 2012 01:14 bLo0d wrote:On June 26 2012 23:44 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 22:31 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:29 Meff wrote:On June 26 2012 21:06 Snowbear wrote:On June 26 2012 19:57 Meff wrote:
[quote]
Well, there are some differences between T and Z that make this actually quite different from a speedling contain. Here are a few:
1) Z needs to be ahead in bases to survive. 2 base against 2 base is considered being at an advantage for T. Wrong wrong wrong: infestor + hive can trade cost efficient with terran, so 3 base vs 3 base is perfectly possible. Please play the game at high masters or above, so you understand it. Instead of trying to bringing things on a personal, condescending level, why don't you take a moment to elaborate on what you're saying? That way this forum and specifically this thread could be used to improve somebody's understanding of the game, which seems much more constructive. ('sides, you don't really need to be high masters to know that infestors + broods or ultras can be cost efficient vT, but that's another issue) Specifically, I don't quite get how hive tech and infestors are relevant when discussing the differences between two early-midgame situations (a speedling contain on 2 bases and a hellion contain on 2 bases). Could you elaborate? Saying that Z does fine on hive tech 3b vs 3b doesn't quite imply that it does the same on hatch/lair tech for 2b vs 2b. Ling infestor isn't hive tech and replaces the muta ling baneling composition, and it works fine against marine tank or any equivalent mech force with some roaches mixed in I guess as needed. The additional benefits of this is that it lets you get upgrades earlier, tech faster, survive on less bases and is a lot easier to control. Yeah, I'm familiar with infestor/ling. Problem is, unilke infestor + hive (for which I agree that you can be cost-effective), I'm quite skeptical about the cost-effectiveness of infestor+ling, pre patch, against a standard marine/tank/medivac mix. Specifically, refer to DRG vs TheStC, first game of season 2 of the 2012 GSL, RO32. Here's a link, it doesn't require a pass: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67112I don't think that it gets much more standard than this game: reactor hellion opener from T, Z reacts by building a spine at the front and a few queens, delaying the third which starts to get constructed right as T's third OC lands (so: Z is actually behind on bases, and so far there have been no significant mistakes from either player). Z opts for the aforementioned ling+infestor composition, gets attacked by a pre-ultralisk timing push with marine/tank/medivac, pulls a relatively good surround but proceeds to lose the engagement and the game as a result. Now, I do realize that one game is not conclusive evidence. However, I also claim that having one of the best progamers in the world lose to somebody who then gets kicked out at the RO16 with exactly the composition/gameplan that is supposed to be the only one that is cost-efficient against T before hive tech is at least good evidence that it is hard for Z to be cost efficient enough with it if their third comes that late due to a hellion contain. Which... is exactly my point. The consequences of a hellion contain on two bases are huge, those of a speedling contain on two bases are T laughing at the wasted larvae and getting a freewin. It didn't work for DRG because going infestor off 2 bases is just not good. The reason the majority of Zergs went mutas was because it wasn't as gas intensive and it allowed for harass/denial of a landed third from Terran while Zerg secures their own third. Infestor ling is so good now because 6 gases can be acquired easily and 3 bases can be droned quickly, so there is no gas starve waiting for your third base and there is no tech transition out of mutas. You can just go straight to hive. The difference of infestor ling pre patch and post patch is due to the easy 3rd base. Of course DRG would be behind this game, he doesn't counteract the map control of the hellions with the mapcontrol and harass of mutas. Mutas were what allowed Zergs to make up for early lost map control. Well, assuming that the spire timing would have been the same as the lair completion one, it would have been put down at about the time when T landed his CC. That gives a lot of time to set up defense, so my best guess is that mutas would be useless in this scenario. Besides, going muta would have delayed his infestors, and hive as a consequence... and I'm pretty much convinced that a bad fight for ling+infestor would be even worse for muta+ling+infestor. Ling/bling/muta has already been mentioned: it's viable if Z can get ahead in bases (as the new queen buff allows), but on equal bases with a delay in acquiring them, it's a sure loss. So, to sum it up: it looks to me that a hellion contain hurts Z far too much. Short of rushing to lair and spreading creep with overlords to give your queens and spines mobility (which I haven't calculated the timings of, it looks silly but it might have worked), I can't think of any way for pre-patch Z to get a third at a comparable time with T. If it's not range 5 queens, then it's something else - but Z desperately needs a way not to be set so far behind when pressured with four hellions. idk. maybe use your larvae for something other than drones? On June 27 2012 03:28 Picklebread wrote:
Make 3 roaches ? 3 roaches end up costing 500/75 and 4.75 larvae (assuming that you didn't want a warren anyway), as well as forcing you to get gas earlier. We're at about the level of three or four workers and the macro hatchery, all to be able to take a quicker third. I doubt that it ends up better than what DRG did. nah these terran whiners know way more about ZvT than DRG.
It amazes me that you think DRG losing once to the most common TvZ opener means that it was imbalanced, despite the fact that he also won more often than not against it.
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On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote:
Having said all that, I think sure, Queens are a lot stronger now and Overlord speed is great, but c'mon Terrans stop crying a bit. Yeah we get it, you feel like the red-haired step child and want a buff, but just suck it up and find a way to deal with it in the meantime. Every race has periods were they get stomped on for a while due to this or that, just try not to cry so damn much christ it's embarrasing.
Actually, back in the day most Terrans would mock me or tell me to stfu when I was pissed about bad Zerg maps like Lost Temple and most of the Terrans would just act like cocky assholes, so really I don't have much sympathy, karma is a bitch.
PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess.
A couple of pointers.
1. The terrans who told you to stop crying back in the day had a point for these reasons. The game was still new and undeveloped enough that anything could happen, and literally no one knew what the future entailed. It was pretty much accepted that the game was in its infancy and that Blizzard would eventually make it better where it was needed.
2. The terrans crying now do it because Blizzard actually made the matchup worse, in every single way. I don't care about statistical balance or if the GSL has 30 terrans, protosses or zergs, as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular.
3. There is a difference in POVs between the terrans who currently struggle and the zergs who struggled back then. Zergs back then KNEW that as long as they could deal with the earlygame shit terrans could throw at them, they could get into a good mid and lategame. Terrans don't have that. It's in the zergs advantage the entire way right now because of the queen buff. You need to play your absolute best and hope that the opponent doesn't play his absolute best. I could consider BC/Raven compositions to be terrans endgame and something for them to look forward to, but it's still too early for that.
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On June 27 2012 05:38 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote:
Having said all that, I think sure, Queens are a lot stronger now and Overlord speed is great, but c'mon Terrans stop crying a bit. Yeah we get it, you feel like the red-haired step child and want a buff, but just suck it up and find a way to deal with it in the meantime. Every race has periods were they get stomped on for a while due to this or that, just try not to cry so damn much christ it's embarrasing.
Actually, back in the day most Terrans would mock me or tell me to stfu when I was pissed about bad Zerg maps like Lost Temple and most of the Terrans would just act like cocky assholes, so really I don't have much sympathy, karma is a bitch.
PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess. A couple of pointers. 1. The terrans who told you to stop crying back in the day had a point for these reasons. The game was still new and undeveloped enough that anything could happen, and literally no one knew what the future entailed. It was pretty much accepted that the game was in its infancy and that Blizzard would eventually make it better where it was needed. 2. The terrans crying now do it because Blizzard actually made the matchup worse, in every single way. I don't care about statistical balance or if the GSL has 30 terrans, protosses or zergs, as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular. 3. There is a difference in POVs between the terrans who currently struggle and the zergs who struggled back then. Zergs back then KNEW that as long as they could deal with the earlygame shit terrans could throw at them, they could get into a good mid and lategame. Terrans don't have that. It's in the zergs advantage the entire way right now because of the queen buff. You need to play your absolute best and hope that the opponent doesn't play his absolute best. I could consider BC/Raven compositions to be terrans endgame and something for them to look forward too, but it's still too early for that.
This.
Oh, and BCs, along with ravens, get countered by infestors, just like every other Terran unit.
In my opinion, make the infestor less of a "counters everything at every point in the game and is never bad to have" unit and remove the queen buff and things will be fine. Perhaps remove the lock-effect of fungal (as it stands, ONE mistake wins the game for the Zerg, AKA chain-fungal, meanwhile Zerg can make a ton of mistakes and be fine), or make it cost 100-150 mana, or something like that. Infested Terrans are of course also incredibly strong, but I don't think they need to be nerfed as such.
Other ways to experiment with balance would be to revert the snipe nerf, or make fungal not work against air units, or make raven missiles longer-ranged than fungal (along with a reduce in gas cost for ravens).
Idunno, I feel like there's a lot of things that could be done, and the question is only what would be ideal.
As long as the race with the best macro doesn't also have the best defence early-game and the most cosft-efficient army composition (that counters everything in the game) in the lategame, things will look a bit better.
I also agree with beasty on the warpgate issue.
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On June 27 2012 03:50 Meff wrote:
Two hatcheries, a spawning pool and six queens equal 1850 minerals, which is the same cost as two command centers and seven barracks
That would be a nice comparison if barracks did 8 DPS at 5 range and could have 20 marines out as soon as aggression got scouted. To really compare you have to look at CCs+rax+marines...
1850 minerals is 2 CCs, 3 barracks, and 12 marines, or 8 and a bunker. I would argue that 6 queen builds are more cost efficient defense than that, now that they have 5 range.
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On June 27 2012 03:50 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 02:13 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2012 01:16 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 01:11 Shiori wrote:
By showing that an untouched Zerg is virtually impossible to deal with, people are trying to show why the aforementioned argument is false. No one has shown this. Stop arguing in absolutes based on nothing at all. Think about it. Let's suppose that the new Queen change made Zerg literally invulnerable to every conceivable non-blind pressure build. Not say it does, but let's suppose. Then that means that Zerg can basically play single player until, say, 10 minutes into the game. Due to the way that Larva Inject works, Zerg is going to be able to get more workers than any other race in this period of time pretty easily. What's more, expanding actually helps the Zerg production, unlike going, say, 3OC or Gate Nexus Nexus. This means that by the time everyone's economy kicks in, Zerg enjoys a rather healthy lead because they don't have as much production overhead. In a sense, expanding actually helps them to produce more in a very direct sense, and not just in the sense that it allows them to afford more units. Even supposing that every race is on an even foot in the lategame, the fact that Zerg will out-produce other races in workers snowballs and allows them to get a super-early Hive that can't really be matched tech-wise by anyone else. It's not so much that Zerg's lategame is too strong, in this line of argument (though, personally, I'd argue that in many cases, Zerg's lategame is too strong) but that they can get there more quickly than anyone else if left unpressured.That, in effect, is the extreme scenario that people are concerned with when it comes to talking about the Queen change. They feel that it is a step in the direction of this passive style of play which doesn't really suit any race except Zerg. Actually, I have two objections. One is that Z might not have large production overheads but they do have to pay for the extra queens. Two hatcheries, a spawning pool and six queens equal 1850 minerals, which is the same cost as two command centers and seven barracks (note: I'm talking about command centers and not OCs because the morphing cost for OCs is essentially an investment in workers, assuming that you do use the energy for MULEs and not scans). Equivalently, for two nexi and seven gateways - though we're not talking about P. The second objection is that we've actually seen entirely passive styles in the past; eventually, they were all figured out. There was a time when all the P rage was turtling on two bases and getting a colossus/stalker/void ray deathball and two-bases timing pushes with +2 mech have had a place in the history of the game. It's not just a zerg thing. Well, there would be a third objection that is, "Actually, six queens don't make Z invulnerable to every possible form of pressure up to hive tech so the whole argument is a dead end", but that is sort of a given. If you ask me, right now the trouble in TvZ stems from Z being able to get a quicker third, therefore having wriggle room to make choices in the midgame, and from T sticking to ineffective pressure. Until the latter changes and people develop midgame aggression that is stronger (thanks to having diverted resources away from early game pressure), it will be impossible to see if the options that Z has are too strong. See objection 1 to see the sort of structures that T could likely build to stage midgame aggression if they didn't concentrate on early, ineffective troops.
Colossus/VR/Stalker deathballs and +2 Mech pushes were not figured out. Zerg players cried until Infestors got overbuffed to the point where you could make 15+ Infestors and roll everything.
I say cry because no one bothered to do 200 Roach busts, Roach/Bling busts, etc. against either P or T at the time, just thought to play ultra greedy with no midgame threat. If the Stephano build, and the Roach/Bling + Safer Hatch timings were figured out earlier, you likely would have never seen a Fungal Growth buff.
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On June 27 2012 05:38 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote:
Having said all that, I think sure, Queens are a lot stronger now and Overlord speed is great, but c'mon Terrans stop crying a bit. Yeah we get it, you feel like the red-haired step child and want a buff, but just suck it up and find a way to deal with it in the meantime. Every race has periods were they get stomped on for a while due to this or that, just try not to cry so damn much christ it's embarrasing.
Actually, back in the day most Terrans would mock me or tell me to stfu when I was pissed about bad Zerg maps like Lost Temple and most of the Terrans would just act like cocky assholes, so really I don't have much sympathy, karma is a bitch.
PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess. A couple of pointers. 1. The terrans who told you to stop crying back in the day had a point for these reasons. The game was still new and undeveloped enough that anything could happen, and literally no one knew what the future entailed. It was pretty much accepted that the game was in its infancy and that Blizzard would eventually make it better where it was needed. 2. The terrans crying now do it because Blizzard actually made the matchup worse, in every single way. I don't care about statistical balance or if the GSL has 30 terrans, protosses or zergs, as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular. 3. There is a difference in POVs between the terrans who currently struggle and the zergs who struggled back then. Zergs back then KNEW that as long as they could deal with the earlygame shit terrans could throw at them, they could get into a good mid and lategame. Terrans don't have that. It's in the zergs advantage the entire way right now because of the queen buff. You need to play your absolute best and hope that the opponent doesn't play his absolute best. I could consider BC/Raven compositions to be terrans endgame and something for them to look forward to, but it's still too early for that.
I agree with these points. The two balance whines are very different. When Zergs started, they failed to learn to adapt and instead opted for hand-outs from Blizzard. Right now, Terran has reached the statistically lowest win rates in sc2 history. And the players who play Terran are arguably the best players in the world. So if they opt to switch to Zerg or Protoss (which MMA, MKP, MVP, Jijaki all play at their mmr on Korean server), Terran would be left with even less players and the win rates would continue to plummet. If these players can't make it work, who can?
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On June 27 2012 06:14 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 05:38 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote:
Having said all that, I think sure, Queens are a lot stronger now and Overlord speed is great, but c'mon Terrans stop crying a bit. Yeah we get it, you feel like the red-haired step child and want a buff, but just suck it up and find a way to deal with it in the meantime. Every race has periods were they get stomped on for a while due to this or that, just try not to cry so damn much christ it's embarrasing.
Actually, back in the day most Terrans would mock me or tell me to stfu when I was pissed about bad Zerg maps like Lost Temple and most of the Terrans would just act like cocky assholes, so really I don't have much sympathy, karma is a bitch.
PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess. A couple of pointers. 1. The terrans who told you to stop crying back in the day had a point for these reasons. The game was still new and undeveloped enough that anything could happen, and literally no one knew what the future entailed. It was pretty much accepted that the game was in its infancy and that Blizzard would eventually make it better where it was needed. 2. The terrans crying now do it because Blizzard actually made the matchup worse, in every single way. I don't care about statistical balance or if the GSL has 30 terrans, protosses or zergs, as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular. 3. There is a difference in POVs between the terrans who currently struggle and the zergs who struggled back then. Zergs back then KNEW that as long as they could deal with the earlygame shit terrans could throw at them, they could get into a good mid and lategame. Terrans don't have that. It's in the zergs advantage the entire way right now because of the queen buff. You need to play your absolute best and hope that the opponent doesn't play his absolute best. I could consider BC/Raven compositions to be terrans endgame and something for them to look forward to, but it's still too early for that. I agree with these points. The two balance whines are very different. When Zergs started, they failed to learn to adapt and instead opted for hand-outs from Blizzard. Right now, Terran has reached the statistically lowest win rates in sc2 history. And the players who play Terran are arguably the best players in the world. So if they opt to switch to Zerg or Protoss (which MMA, MKP, MVP, Jijaki all play at their mmr on Korean server), Terran would be left with even less players and the win rates would continue to plummet. If these players can't make it work, who can?
Can you provide evidence that Terran are facing the worst statistical winrate in sc2 history?
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I don't think any of the terrans will switch to be honest. They'll keep grinding the game in the hopes of finding something new.
Regardless of what they'll find, if they'll discover some endgame composition that works against the endgame of the zerg or whatnot doesn't change the fact that Blizzard hamhandedly broke the earlygame of TvZ, a matchup that was considered balanced.
Edit: Statistics aside. The matchup is less fun than it was before. Who would want to turtle on their ass for 10+ minutes before anything happened? What is the point in those first ten minutes if nothing important happens...
If terrans discovered that turtling on 4 base until BC/Ravens was successful, the earlygame of TvZ would still be broken, regardless of statistical balance.
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On June 27 2012 06:14 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 05:38 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote:
Having said all that, I think sure, Queens are a lot stronger now and Overlord speed is great, but c'mon Terrans stop crying a bit. Yeah we get it, you feel like the red-haired step child and want a buff, but just suck it up and find a way to deal with it in the meantime. Every race has periods were they get stomped on for a while due to this or that, just try not to cry so damn much christ it's embarrasing.
Actually, back in the day most Terrans would mock me or tell me to stfu when I was pissed about bad Zerg maps like Lost Temple and most of the Terrans would just act like cocky assholes, so really I don't have much sympathy, karma is a bitch.
PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess. A couple of pointers. 1. The terrans who told you to stop crying back in the day had a point for these reasons. The game was still new and undeveloped enough that anything could happen, and literally no one knew what the future entailed. It was pretty much accepted that the game was in its infancy and that Blizzard would eventually make it better where it was needed. 2. The terrans crying now do it because Blizzard actually made the matchup worse, in every single way. I don't care about statistical balance or if the GSL has 30 terrans, protosses or zergs, as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular. 3. There is a difference in POVs between the terrans who currently struggle and the zergs who struggled back then. Zergs back then KNEW that as long as they could deal with the earlygame shit terrans could throw at them, they could get into a good mid and lategame. Terrans don't have that. It's in the zergs advantage the entire way right now because of the queen buff. You need to play your absolute best and hope that the opponent doesn't play his absolute best. I could consider BC/Raven compositions to be terrans endgame and something for them to look forward to, but it's still too early for that. I agree with these points. The two balance whines are very different. When Zergs started, they failed to learn to adapt and instead opted for hand-outs from Blizzard. Right now, Terran has reached the statistically lowest win rates in sc2 history. And the players who play Terran are arguably the best players in the world. So if they opt to switch to Zerg or Protoss (which MMA, MKP, MVP, Jijaki all play at their mmr on Korean server), Terran would be left with even less players and the win rates would continue to plummet. If these players can't make it work, who can?
No Terran is going to switch, at least not before HoTS. There's a difference between KR server ladder MMR and actual tournaments like GSL and stuff
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On June 27 2012 06:14 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 05:38 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote:
Having said all that, I think sure, Queens are a lot stronger now and Overlord speed is great, but c'mon Terrans stop crying a bit. Yeah we get it, you feel like the red-haired step child and want a buff, but just suck it up and find a way to deal with it in the meantime. Every race has periods were they get stomped on for a while due to this or that, just try not to cry so damn much christ it's embarrasing.
Actually, back in the day most Terrans would mock me or tell me to stfu when I was pissed about bad Zerg maps like Lost Temple and most of the Terrans would just act like cocky assholes, so really I don't have much sympathy, karma is a bitch.
PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess. A couple of pointers. 1. The terrans who told you to stop crying back in the day had a point for these reasons. The game was still new and undeveloped enough that anything could happen, and literally no one knew what the future entailed. It was pretty much accepted that the game was in its infancy and that Blizzard would eventually make it better where it was needed. 2. The terrans crying now do it because Blizzard actually made the matchup worse, in every single way. I don't care about statistical balance or if the GSL has 30 terrans, protosses or zergs, as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular. 3. There is a difference in POVs between the terrans who currently struggle and the zergs who struggled back then. Zergs back then KNEW that as long as they could deal with the earlygame shit terrans could throw at them, they could get into a good mid and lategame. Terrans don't have that. It's in the zergs advantage the entire way right now because of the queen buff. You need to play your absolute best and hope that the opponent doesn't play his absolute best. I could consider BC/Raven compositions to be terrans endgame and something for them to look forward to, but it's still too early for that. I agree with these points. The two balance whines are very different. When Zergs started, they failed to learn to adapt and instead opted for hand-outs from Blizzard. Right now, Terran has reached the statistically lowest win rates in sc2 history. And the players who play Terran are arguably the best players in the world. So if they opt to switch to Zerg or Protoss (which MMA, MKP, MVP, Jijaki all play at their mmr on Korean server), Terran would be left with even less players and the win rates would continue to plummet. If these players can't make it work, who can?
lol you cant seriously believe that. Zerg failed to adapt to what? Close positions? Fast rax and bunker build times? It wasn't until late last year that the majority of this stuff got patched.
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as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular.
I could see your point about the queen buff, but the snipe nerf ? That was litteraly about just smashing a button and everything would die, the only way i could see it "killing your fun" would be if you'd really really loved singleplayer game
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On June 27 2012 06:19 Dalavita wrote:
I don't think any of the terrans will switch to be honest. They'll keep grinding the game in the hopes of finding something new.
Regardless of what they'll find, if they'll discover some endgame composition that works against the endgame of the zerg or whatnot doesn't change the fact that Blizzard hamhandedly broke the earlygame of TvZ, a matchup that was considered balanced.
Edit: Statistics aside. The matchup is less fun than it was before. Who would want to turtle on their ass for 10+ minutes before anything happened? What is the point in those first ten minutes if nothing important happens...
If terrans discovered that turtling on 4 base until BC/Ravens was successful, the earlygame of TvZ would still be broken, regardless of statistical balance.
I see two ways out of this situation, actually.
1) a T build gets developed that takes advantage of the lack of threats from Z in the early game. Everybody starts doing that, the metagame shifts, and Z eventually start cutting corners by getting less queens (because they don't give them an auto-win since aggression isn't that common anymore). At this point, pressure builds, threats and feints become viable again.
2) no such build gets discovered and Blizzard patches this up.
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On June 27 2012 06:35 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 06:19 Dalavita wrote:
I don't think any of the terrans will switch to be honest. They'll keep grinding the game in the hopes of finding something new.
Regardless of what they'll find, if they'll discover some endgame composition that works against the endgame of the zerg or whatnot doesn't change the fact that Blizzard hamhandedly broke the earlygame of TvZ, a matchup that was considered balanced.
Edit: Statistics aside. The matchup is less fun than it was before. Who would want to turtle on their ass for 10+ minutes before anything happened? What is the point in those first ten minutes if nothing important happens...
If terrans discovered that turtling on 4 base until BC/Ravens was successful, the earlygame of TvZ would still be broken, regardless of statistical balance. I see two ways out of this situation, actually. 1) a T build gets developed that takes advantage of the lack of threats from Z in the early game. Everybody starts doing that, the metagame shifts, and Z eventually start cutting corners by getting less queens (because they don't give them an auto-win since aggression isn't that common anymore). At this point, pressure builds, threats and feints become viable again. 2) no such build gets discovered and Blizzard patches this up.
The problem is 1. is already common, but gets countered so hard by roach bane busts, which are very hard to stop. Investing in 4 queens helps out an early all in anyways(you can spread creep while injecting non-stop)
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On June 27 2012 06:35 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 06:19 Dalavita wrote:
I don't think any of the terrans will switch to be honest. They'll keep grinding the game in the hopes of finding something new.
Regardless of what they'll find, if they'll discover some endgame composition that works against the endgame of the zerg or whatnot doesn't change the fact that Blizzard hamhandedly broke the earlygame of TvZ, a matchup that was considered balanced.
Edit: Statistics aside. The matchup is less fun than it was before. Who would want to turtle on their ass for 10+ minutes before anything happened? What is the point in those first ten minutes if nothing important happens...
If terrans discovered that turtling on 4 base until BC/Ravens was successful, the earlygame of TvZ would still be broken, regardless of statistical balance. I see two ways out of this situation, actually. 1) a T build gets developed that takes advantage of the lack of threats from Z in the early game. Everybody starts doing that, the metagame shifts, and Z eventually start cutting corners by getting less queens (because they don't give them an auto-win since aggression isn't that common anymore). At this point, pressure builds, threats and feints become viable again. 2) no such build gets discovered and Blizzard patches this up.
A 3rd choice is finding a way to transition into BC/Ghost. Bomber is well on his way to figuring that out. It just needs to be viable on non-turtle like maps.
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On June 27 2012 06:27 BandonBanshee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 06:14 zmansman17 wrote:On June 27 2012 05:38 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote:
Having said all that, I think sure, Queens are a lot stronger now and Overlord speed is great, but c'mon Terrans stop crying a bit. Yeah we get it, you feel like the red-haired step child and want a buff, but just suck it up and find a way to deal with it in the meantime. Every race has periods were they get stomped on for a while due to this or that, just try not to cry so damn much christ it's embarrasing.
Actually, back in the day most Terrans would mock me or tell me to stfu when I was pissed about bad Zerg maps like Lost Temple and most of the Terrans would just act like cocky assholes, so really I don't have much sympathy, karma is a bitch.
PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess. A couple of pointers. 1. The terrans who told you to stop crying back in the day had a point for these reasons. The game was still new and undeveloped enough that anything could happen, and literally no one knew what the future entailed. It was pretty much accepted that the game was in its infancy and that Blizzard would eventually make it better where it was needed. 2. The terrans crying now do it because Blizzard actually made the matchup worse, in every single way. I don't care about statistical balance or if the GSL has 30 terrans, protosses or zergs, as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular. 3. There is a difference in POVs between the terrans who currently struggle and the zergs who struggled back then. Zergs back then KNEW that as long as they could deal with the earlygame shit terrans could throw at them, they could get into a good mid and lategame. Terrans don't have that. It's in the zergs advantage the entire way right now because of the queen buff. You need to play your absolute best and hope that the opponent doesn't play his absolute best. I could consider BC/Raven compositions to be terrans endgame and something for them to look forward to, but it's still too early for that. I agree with these points. The two balance whines are very different. When Zergs started, they failed to learn to adapt and instead opted for hand-outs from Blizzard. Right now, Terran has reached the statistically lowest win rates in sc2 history. And the players who play Terran are arguably the best players in the world. So if they opt to switch to Zerg or Protoss (which MMA, MKP, MVP, Jijaki all play at their mmr on Korean server), Terran would be left with even less players and the win rates would continue to plummet. If these players can't make it work, who can? lol you cant seriously believe that. Zerg failed to adapt to what? Close positions? Fast rax and bunker build times? It wasn't until late last year that the majority of this stuff got patched.
It is difficult to tell when the delusion end and the troll begins. If he is 100% serious, that is the most entitled attitude I have seen in a while. But some people really feel the game was balanced when 11/11/ rax was a thing and totally ok and balanced.
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On June 27 2012 06:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 06:27 BandonBanshee wrote:On June 27 2012 06:14 zmansman17 wrote:On June 27 2012 05:38 Dalavita wrote:On June 26 2012 22:47 BeeNu wrote:
Having said all that, I think sure, Queens are a lot stronger now and Overlord speed is great, but c'mon Terrans stop crying a bit. Yeah we get it, you feel like the red-haired step child and want a buff, but just suck it up and find a way to deal with it in the meantime. Every race has periods were they get stomped on for a while due to this or that, just try not to cry so damn much christ it's embarrasing.
Actually, back in the day most Terrans would mock me or tell me to stfu when I was pissed about bad Zerg maps like Lost Temple and most of the Terrans would just act like cocky assholes, so really I don't have much sympathy, karma is a bitch.
PS: Terrans also love to cry about how they have to be agressive and do damage and "Thats just not faaaaaaaiiiiiiir!!!" but guess what, Zerg has to do the same thing vs Protoss because believe it or not but a big late-game deathball with archons and a mothership is nearly unbeatable, so suck it up is what I'm saying I guess. A couple of pointers. 1. The terrans who told you to stop crying back in the day had a point for these reasons. The game was still new and undeveloped enough that anything could happen, and literally no one knew what the future entailed. It was pretty much accepted that the game was in its infancy and that Blizzard would eventually make it better where it was needed. 2. The terrans crying now do it because Blizzard actually made the matchup worse, in every single way. I don't care about statistical balance or if the GSL has 30 terrans, protosses or zergs, as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular. 3. There is a difference in POVs between the terrans who currently struggle and the zergs who struggled back then. Zergs back then KNEW that as long as they could deal with the earlygame shit terrans could throw at them, they could get into a good mid and lategame. Terrans don't have that. It's in the zergs advantage the entire way right now because of the queen buff. You need to play your absolute best and hope that the opponent doesn't play his absolute best. I could consider BC/Raven compositions to be terrans endgame and something for them to look forward to, but it's still too early for that. I agree with these points. The two balance whines are very different. When Zergs started, they failed to learn to adapt and instead opted for hand-outs from Blizzard. Right now, Terran has reached the statistically lowest win rates in sc2 history. And the players who play Terran are arguably the best players in the world. So if they opt to switch to Zerg or Protoss (which MMA, MKP, MVP, Jijaki all play at their mmr on Korean server), Terran would be left with even less players and the win rates would continue to plummet. If these players can't make it work, who can? lol you cant seriously believe that. Zerg failed to adapt to what? Close positions? Fast rax and bunker build times? It wasn't until late last year that the majority of this stuff got patched. It is difficult to tell when the delusion end and the troll begins. If he is 100% serious, that is the most entitled attitude I have seen in a while. But some people really feel the game was balanced when 11/11/ rax was a thing and totally ok and balanced.
Yea, most of his posts are just the same, im smelling a troll.
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On June 27 2012 06:33 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +as long as the game is well designed and good/fun. Blizzard killed the most fun matchup for me with the snipe nerf, and the queen buff in particular. I could see your point about the queen buff, but the snipe nerf ? That was litteraly about just smashing a button and everything would die, the only way i could see it "killing your fun" would be if you'd really really loved singleplayer game
Fun/good design isn't the way you do things, although that's certainly helps (I for one love marine splitting vs banelings while focusing them with tanks, most fun thing to do in TvZ). Fun/good design would be units and maps that allow for a lot of variation and strategy.
The ghost nerf was rushed. There were only a handful of lategame TvZs that went the mass ghost route, and zergs won half of them. The other half was won by pretty much MVP alone in situations where he was advantaged before even getting the ghosts. We never got to see zergs response to the mass ghost play and what it would lead to, how it would change compositions or playstyles. By itself there wasn't much to the ghost. You just used snipe and shit dies, however they had the potential as units to make zergs sweat for their lategame victories and create entertaining lategames. As it is right now, thanks to Blizzard, ghosts are pretty much dead and locked into a "counter-unit" situation which they don't even really fit into in the matchup. We need less of those units, and a lot more units that have a several viable roles so we see variance and intelligent play.
One of the coolest pre snipe nerf TvZs I saw was Thorzain vs Stephano on cross position metalopolis, where the entire map got mined out and the endgame was actually equal the entire way through.
I think it was a shoutcraft cup, but I don't remember which one. Day9 did a daily on it tho. #402.
Edit: Also I'm saddened by terrans going more bio heavy in general in TvZ. Tanks were the backbone of the terran army in BW, and the thing you thought about when someone mentioned terran were the siege tanks, and now they're basically TvT units. Buff tanks already!
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EPT
