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[Concept] Line of Sight Blocking Ability - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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MagmaPunch
Profile Joined November 2011
Bulgaria536 Posts
June 15 2012 11:04 GMT
#61
This looks awesome man
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3805 Posts
June 15 2012 11:06 GMT
#62
Great idea in theory, super imbalanced in real life I would say
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
CanadianSCgamer
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada64 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-15 11:13:37
June 15 2012 11:11 GMT
#63
On June 15 2012 19:59 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2012 19:57 SolidMoose wrote:
On June 15 2012 19:51 Adonminus wrote:
I don't think it's useful past the early game since then most people will have obs and overseers out. Plus don't think it's useful for siege tank.

Just keep aos blocking as it is, with aos doodads hiding important spots on the map.


Or literally anything that that gives air vision. A mutalisk? A colossus? A viking? This whole idea is pointless past early game. My mind is truly boggled how no one seems to even think of this.

Yes, exactly. Really not that useful at all...


Yes, and that's exactly why this is a good ability. It takes skill to use and it is dynamic. It might be terrible if not used correctly, but extremely powerful if it is.

Be creative guys! Mutas/Colossus/Viking can all be shot by Terran Anti-Air. Destroy enemy vision and you will gain a huge advantage. If not, then the battle will be the same as it is without this ability, nothing will be different from any regular fight anyways.

Also, try and catch your enemy off guard. It is impossible to pay attention all the time and keep the max vision. If this isn't true, then Terrans currently would never be able to sneak tanks slightly into Siege range, but not vision range, to destroy unknowing enemy tanks.
bhfberserk
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada390 Posts
June 15 2012 11:16 GMT
#64
I think if this ability is coming out from the Warhound, instead of the "auto-target to mech" thing. From the missile launcher on top of the warhound, you can launch smoke screen would be cool.
But then again, this overlaps with the Viper's blinding cloud (if it is still in the game).

The concept is like cloak, Dark swarm.
Vision thing can be counter by a scan or flying units. So this is definitely a viable and balance ablity.

In the pictures you have showed, it is confusing because you use the smoke wall mechanic. I was confused at first seeing each players POV. But it could just be changed into a cloud thing.

Roarer
Profile Joined December 2011
Hong Kong124 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-15 12:54:21
June 15 2012 11:16 GMT
#65
I am not sure how much effect of such an ability will affect the match-ups. Let's see:

TvT : the ability can limit marine marauders sight range... but Terran can neutralize it with scans or a floating barrack. On the other hand medivac will be out @ around 10:00. Once medivac is out, the smake screen is more or less useless. Even if the tanking guy go for vikings, you need 3 vikings to 2 shot a medivac.... so ...the marauder Terran can push with 2 medivac @ 10:00 saving 1 scan. In short, the screen is useless in "main" engagement after 10:00.
If we only look at its usefulness before 10:00, assuming you go 1 rax expand... the earliest tank you can get is about 7:15. As a result, you can only have 1 to 3 tanks to hold off the marauder pushes before 10:00. The ability has to be effective for having only 3 tanks. The tanking better to be able to lay at least 2 layers of smoke screen before 10:00 or else the ability will be actually useless( to waste 1 scan, then the MM will not be able to push through the second layer).


TvP: Can be useful against stalkers, since they cannot blink into places with no vision, and also delay the charge on zealots. However, every standard protoss will have observer out @ 7:30 which can allow it to see through the screen. After 12:30, most protoss will have colossus out which can give vision. Then the effectiveness of the ability will come down to observer sniping which protoss will have the upper hand most of the time. In conclusion, the ability has very limited uses in straight up TvP engagement.

TvZ: It's useless on creeps and after mutalisks are out, so the window for it to be useful will be between 7:15 to 9:00 ( assuming 1 rax expo again). However, the smoke screen can help a ton in counter attacks. Zergs will hardly have spotters when they are doing counter attacks.. and they may be scared and retreat once they took 1 tank shot cuz they have no idea how many more is back there. In straight up defense, they can neutralize roaches, which tanks always do, but it forces the zerg to poke through the screen with either muta or overlord/overseers.I guess everyone knows that marine can kill these units quite easily, thus delaying the push. This can bring some new dynamic to the match up^ ^ . The ability can be really useful in TvZ then.


In conclusion, the ability is only useful for retreat in most match-ups. It is really interesting in TvZ. Terran can hardly benefit from it in any form agressions and the timing window for it to shine is very small. Thus, I would say that the ability should come free with tanks. Any upgrades delaying it to make an impact in the game might be too much. Moreover, if we want the ability to have an impact in the late games, it needs a buff. Maybe something like units in the smoke screen have increased chance to miss unless the targets were tracked by sensor towers.
Never argue with an idiot, cause they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience =﹏=
TheBloodyDwarf
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Finland7524 Posts
June 15 2012 11:25 GMT
#66
Huge NO. This would be so imbalanced.

Think TvP, terran have always air control, always. You can't bring observer there coz there is always raven. As protoss you would never get vision to terran army. HUGE NO. I don't want more imbalanced thing to hots than there at the moment is.
Fusilero: "I still can't believe he did that, like dude what the fuck there's fandom and then there's what he did like holy shit. I still see it when I close my eyes." <- reaction to the original drunk santa post which later caught on
Rocno
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia25 Posts
June 15 2012 11:28 GMT
#67
A smoke screen actually sounds like a great idea, if blizzard tried this I think the tvt match up would be a whole lot more interesting

Just a idea:

What about if the smoke screen was fired off by marauders rather than tanks? This would be great for people doing bio in tvt against mech or marine tank, especially at lower leagues (like myself) where I dont really have the multitasking skill to do a huge amount of harassment or micro with bio but I also hate using tanks in tvt, the smoke screen could allow a bio ball to get closer to tank lines unseen potentially avoiding one or two tank volley's in the process. Potentially making direct head to head bio pushes more viable.
I would love to see more pro's go bio in tvt matches and this might make it more viable
Roarer
Profile Joined December 2011
Hong Kong124 Posts
June 15 2012 11:41 GMT
#68
On June 15 2012 20:28 Rocno wrote:
A smoke screen actually sounds like a great idea, if blizzard tried this I think the tvt match up would be a whole lot more interesting

Just a idea:

What about if the smoke screen was fired off by marauders rather than tanks? This would be great for people doing bio in tvt against mech or marine tank, especially at lower leagues (like myself) where I dont really have the multitasking skill to do a huge amount of harassment or micro with bio but I also hate using tanks in tvt, the smoke screen could allow a bio ball to get closer to tank lines unseen potentially avoiding one or two tank volley's in the process. Potentially making direct head to head bio pushes more viable.
I would love to see more pro's go bio in tvt matches and this might make it more viable


The OP idea is to promote more positional play, which suits better for tanks. If it is given to the marauders, it actually does the opposite of the OP's intention. It make countering tanks easier, i.e. breaking positions.
Never argue with an idiot, cause they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience =﹏=
Jinsho
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom3101 Posts
June 15 2012 11:50 GMT
#69
This idea is, of course, absolute rubbish.

It has to mean nothing in TvT as scans have to see through, otherwise whoever fires the first smoke shells wins, and it would greatly mess up TvZ and TvP.
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
June 15 2012 11:56 GMT
#70
On June 15 2012 20:50 Jinsho wrote:
This idea is, of course, absolute rubbish.

It has to mean nothing in TvT as scans have to see through, otherwise whoever fires the first smoke shells wins, and it would greatly mess up TvZ and TvP.


I have to agree with this. The intention is great, but the execution was just poor. TvT would just be a LoS battle, while this would IMO make Tank/Marine much harder to deal with as Zerg.

Doesn't affect TvP AS much if it is a researched ability, but if not, the 1-1-1 just got a hell of a lot stronger again.
Imperium11
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States279 Posts
June 15 2012 12:02 GMT
#71
This is the best theorycrafting thread I've seen in a long time.
CanadianSCgamer
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada64 Posts
June 15 2012 12:04 GMT
#72
On June 15 2012 20:56 FairForever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2012 20:50 Jinsho wrote:
This idea is, of course, absolute rubbish.

It has to mean nothing in TvT as scans have to see through, otherwise whoever fires the first smoke shells wins, and it would greatly mess up TvZ and TvP.


I have to agree with this. The intention is great, but the execution was just poor. TvT would just be a LoS battle, while this would IMO make Tank/Marine much harder to deal with as Zerg.

Doesn't affect TvP AS much if it is a researched ability, but if not, the 1-1-1 just got a hell of a lot stronger again.


To all quoted posters:

TvT is already a LOS battle XD. This ability is meant to change that up a little bit to give it a more back and forth dynamic. Since Siege Lines are quite static, smoke allows players to attack into a entrenched position. Think WW1 and trench warfare.

Of course scans can see through. Any ability that has no counter is sort of broken, even fungals can be countered by splits, and forcefields indirectly by EMP.
TibblesEvilCat
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom766 Posts
June 15 2012 12:11 GMT
#73
Zerg will have a borrowed style broodlord/lurker and dark swarm/blinding cloud and abduct from viper
Protoss will have cloaking field from the oracle
Terran will have a move mini thors.

but in my personal opinions the siege tank is too one dimensional, other units such as hellion do better w/micro vs. light and maurders more cost efficient, you need a critical mass of the tanks for them to work, and even then there mobility can be abused by higher level players. i would actually say tanks need more dmg per shot to see any real use in Hots past 6 months.

Sorry for bad spelling and grammar x
Live Fast Die Young :D
Special Endrey
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1929 Posts
June 15 2012 12:15 GMT
#74
looks like someone has problems with siege tanks hehe

i think there are enough possibilties to deal with em
This signature is ruining eSports - -Twitter: @SpecialEndrey
BlueKatz
Profile Joined March 2012
68 Posts
June 15 2012 12:37 GMT
#75
Idk. First, Air is important in ant Tank relate fight so I can't see how useful is this. Plus scan
Also Warhound meant to make Mech viable in TvP as the Auto Anti Mech bypass Immortal Shield

I think the smoke idea is pretty cool, very Terran-ish. But unless they decide to remove Blinding Cloud (which is a terrible skill imo) then a Sight Block or Dark Swarm ability type would work. Or maybe an AoE ability that consume AoE effect
Quotes are useless
redDuke
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia207 Posts
June 15 2012 12:37 GMT
#76
thats awesome! so i guess 'defensively' means drop screens then scan their army so ucan attack them but they can tattack you? win!
vile | FXO | Liquid | EG | coL
mostevil
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom611 Posts
June 15 2012 12:38 GMT
#77
Excellent idea, sounds well worth exploring. Modern tanks already have smoke launchers, seems unlikely that they'll forget that anytime soon. The current terran HoTS offerings look very weak due to a general reduction in micro potential while it'll make the sub gold league happy it can only hurt the game in the long run. I wish they'd give up on the warhound and bring in a MK2 goliath.
我的媽和她的瘋狂的外甥都
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-15 12:43:43
June 15 2012 12:42 GMT
#78
I don't even know why Blizzard is interested in making siege lines easier to break in TvT. Positional play and the comeback potential that strong defender's advantage creates is a big part of what makes TvT good. It's like they don't even understand their own game.
MavivaM
Profile Joined November 2011
1535 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-15 12:47:24
June 15 2012 12:46 GMT
#79
On June 15 2012 20:50 Jinsho wrote:
This idea is, of course, absolute rubbish.

It has to mean nothing in TvT as scans have to see through, otherwise whoever fires the first smoke shells wins, and it would greatly mess up TvZ and TvP.

This internet tough guy may express his opinion in a better way, but he's right.

In TvT the scans are going to completely nullify the LOS effect, in TvZ all the zerg has to do is bringing some mutalisks, or if he's going with another army composition he can use speed overlords or oversees without being forced to change his build at all.
So, it's an ability that it's not going to change at all 2 of the 3 matchups.

About TvP instead it could break the meta: T rushes to tank, pushes on one base, scans to get upper ground vision and then uses LOS to negate vision for the forcefields.

I like the idea overall and I think it's cool... just not viable in this current way.
No idea about how to improve it altough.
Your Opinion has been counted. Only 3 more Opinions needed for a reddit thread.
Knee_of_Justice
Profile Joined October 2009
United States388 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-15 12:58:54
June 15 2012 12:53 GMT
#80
I like the thought but always hoped it would be given to Zerg (Protoss player here)

Ive always assumed that blizzard would try to experiment more with this mechanic.

I was hoping, for example, that it would be able to block xelnaga watch towers so that the mapmakers could control how the tower gives vision (for example, vision on one side but not the other, which is interesting because it increases the ways that watchtowers can be positioned (not giving a full 360 degree view can add a lot of flexibility and strategy for mapmakers who want one attack path to be easily scouted while another is less easy to keep an eye on).

Anyway, Ive also always hoped that they give a mechanic like this to a race, specifically Zerg. Blinding cloud is a step in the right direction but not really what I had in mind.

I imagined an early/mid-game ability (maybe on the queen or overlord or creep tumor?) that allows you to set up line of sight blockers, which would be permanent on creep. I think this fits really well with the Zerg race because:

1) the importance of flanking, positioning, etc for the Zerg
2) the numerous short-ranged units that Zerg has (LoS blockers even the playing field for short ranged units)
3) the abundance of overlords which has great synergy with such an ability allowing the Zerg to see over the obstacle but the enemy to be blind.

As an early terran or protoss army pushes on to creep, they will be slowed by each line of LoS blockers, fearing banelings, zergling/roach flanks, buried unit ambushes etc on the home turf of the Zerg. Creep and Overlord sight will give the Zerg a solid idea of the progress of the invading army, however.

I hadnt thought about it as a Terran ability because as people have said, I think it becomes more limited as the game goes on and air units and scans become more abundant. This ability would be best in the early game as a type of soft defensive mechanic which is why I think it would work best for Zerg.
Protoss Tactical Guide: http://www.sc2armory.com/forums/topic/7903
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