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On June 17 2012 06:34 decaf wrote:
The concept sounds great. Post it on the blizzard forums asap!
It's useless to argue about whether this is OP or not, especially if it's implemented in HotS. No on can ever claim to know how HotS will turn out. Maybe we won't ever see marine tank vs Zerg again?
The idea is good and that's what counts. First get the design straight, then do the balancing.
Thank. I just posted it on Blizzard forums, but I really don't know if the Devs will actually read it. Plus the functionality of the Blizzard forums is very rudimentary, so I thought the idea would get more exposure if it were here, on TL.
In reply to a few posts:
-Yea this ability would work on Warhound as well, but I decided that it would be best on the tank because Warhound can now be freed to take back its original anti-air role as mini-thor/goliath, and the Thor can be removed due to its unpopularity.
-This ability isn't really that good early game with the 1-1-1 build (due to low # of tanks) because just like forcefields, the more you have the more powerful it becomes. Plus, it only lasts a short duration, so the Protoss can just back up until the Smoke is gone, then reengage.
@Everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback, keep them coming. I really wish I knew how to use the Galaxy editor properly so we can actually test this in a game.
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This is a really neat idea.
That said, it does suffer from the same condition as force fields where it is semi-uncontestable in many situations. I'm not sure if making the smoke emitter targettable behind its smoke lines would add some play to it.
Thematically it is a bit weird for Terran, so I feel like
What I like most about is, is the increased relevancy it brings to flying units in TvT, where there has been a slow reduction in viking wars since people realized just making more bio/tank and splitting properly was more effective as a siege break opposed to the slow crawl positioning wars of early release.
Also drop me a PM, I might be able to help with the mapping dependent on scheduling, if you still need someone.
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On June 17 2012 06:09 jeeneeus wrote:
I think it would have to an upgrade on either the ebay, tech lab, or armory (and should cost some significant amount of gas, maybe 100?). I think mid and late game, the ability is fine, but early game it can be pretty annoying.
Basically it makes the 1-1-1 that much stronger if it were already built in. Observers can be shut down with a raven. This means going chargelots is much less effective in defending (Colossi and phoenixes still work). Basically it limits the options for defense and that's not cool. By forcing an upgrade, it would cost additional time and money, so the protoss can make additional units (and the terran has less units), so it could free up the usage of chargelots again.
In tvt, it's already really hard to hold against a siege tank push if you go 1rax fe. With a smoke screen, it would severely limit your opportunities to try and stim to clean it up, since you wouldn't be able to see when a good moment to go unless you scan constantly or constantly sacrifice units. Basically, that means you have to wait for medivacs to pop. Most people do this anyway, but the difference is the threat. The siege tank pusher has to be really careful with his tank positioning and leap frogging because if he messes up, the defending player can go and kill it before medivacs. With smoke, the tank player has no need to worry. Thus, with the additional time and cost, not only will there be more units out, it would give more time for medivacs to pop.
You (and a lot of others in this thread) forget about the stats of the ability. It's important to balance the ability around those situations you describe.
These smoke grenades could have a short durability and a long cooldown, they are not meant to be permanent or to be there too long, so you can't just always be save against everything.
Using the example of a siege push against 1rax-fe, you have to use the smoke screens directly after the other player attacks with his bio because you only have a low siege tank count and can't constantly keep smoke up. So when you throw down those emergency smoke screens the other player needs to throw down a scan as fast as possible.
(similar situation with the 1-1-1 against protoss)
In my opinion this ability could make the game more dynamic and fun, which means more interesting to watch and to play. I love the idea.
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I dont usually like "suggestion" threads like this, but that is a damn cool idea!
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Canada2339 Posts
I think this is why there are strategically placed line of sight blockers and high ground bases. A smokescreen ability seems pretty cool, but I fail to see how it helps you if you can't see over the smoke, and if you can see over the smoke, then you must have something like air control to push into the tanks anyway. Basically, what's the point of the smoke when it's the ability to see over the smoke and keep the air control that actually allows you to push with your tanks (I'm talking about vikings, denying vision with said vikings and using air control to maintain the vision advantage)? Also, if you're dropping smoke in some weird place, your opponent would probably think twice about nonchalantly walking through it, no?
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I like it, but I am not sure if the tank is the right unit for this ability. Could also be a nice ability for the ghost.
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On June 17 2012 07:20 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I think this is why there are strategically placed line of sight blockers and high ground bases. A smokescreen ability seems pretty cool, but I fail to see how it helps you if you can't see over the smoke, and if you can see over the smoke, then you must have something like air control to push into the tanks anyway. Basically, what's the point of the smoke when it's the ability to see over the smoke and keep the air control that actually allows you to push with your tanks (I'm talking about vikings, denying vision with said vikings and using air control to maintain the vision advantage)? Also, if you're dropping smoke in some weird place, your opponent would probably think twice about nonchalantly walking through it, no?
Usually in TvT, one Terran will have to unsiege and attack into a siege line, that means taking a lot of Tank shelling before getting close enough to siege up your own tanks and attack. Imagine if you can fire a few Smoke Shells ahead, block the enemy's vision and get close enough to siege up your own tanks without taking any damage. How would that change the tide of the battle? This would allow a smaller army to engage a bigger one.
Of course, there would also be scenarios of stalemates, in which both Terrans will launch their smokes at each other's tank lines in offense and defence. This is when it gets interesting. Do you save your scans, so you can attack into the smoke? Or do you try and gain air superiority.
Regarding your last point, yes Smoke can be used to "fake out" your opponent. Deter them from coming at you.
I want to stress again that in practice, the spell won't give you an advantage for its entire duration because pro players will probably regain vision by then. What it does do is give you a few extra precious seconds for you to move, and in high level play, that small amount of time is all you need.
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On June 17 2012 06:44 CanadianSCgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:34 decaf wrote:
The concept sounds great. Post it on the blizzard forums asap!
It's useless to argue about whether this is OP or not, especially if it's implemented in HotS. No on can ever claim to know how HotS will turn out. Maybe we won't ever see marine tank vs Zerg again?
The idea is good and that's what counts. First get the design straight, then do the balancing. Thank. I just posted it on Blizzard forums, but I really don't know if the Devs will actually read it. Plus the functionality of the Blizzard forums is very rudimentary, so I thought the idea would get more exposure if it were here, on TL.
Maybe you should put a link to it in the OP then supportive TL'rs can get a discussion going over there and give it a better chance of being seen.
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On June 17 2012 08:05 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:44 CanadianSCgamer wrote:On June 17 2012 06:34 decaf wrote:
The concept sounds great. Post it on the blizzard forums asap!
It's useless to argue about whether this is OP or not, especially if it's implemented in HotS. No on can ever claim to know how HotS will turn out. Maybe we won't ever see marine tank vs Zerg again?
The idea is good and that's what counts. First get the design straight, then do the balancing. Thank. I just posted it on Blizzard forums, but I really don't know if the Devs will actually read it. Plus the functionality of the Blizzard forums is very rudimentary, so I thought the idea would get more exposure if it were here, on TL. Maybe you should put a link to it in the OP then supportive TL'rs can get a discussion going over there and give it a better chance of being seen.
It's done. 
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You have my support sir! (As a Terran :D) But really though, it's actually a really unique idea, I think it will help with the diversity of the game quite a bit in the hands of a skilled player, and for anyone else that likes it, go to the thread that he linked on Battle.net and support it!
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As it's a projectile, is it stopped by Point Defence Drone?
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On June 17 2012 08:40 Yonnua wrote:
As it's a projectile, is it stopped by Point Defence Drone?
Possibly. That depends on testing on whether it would be more balanced that way. As it currently stands, no, because it would work like the Ghost's EMP round. PDDs don't block EMP projectiles, but you can see them and they have travel time.
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Wow that's a really good idea. And for it to be called Smoke Screen, that's so badass that it could only belong to Terran. I wonder if Blizz looks at these unit suggestions because this one in particular is pretty cool. Would of course need to be really examined for uses, because as it looks right now I'm having a hard time imagining it being THAT useful.
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Love this idea, at first I thought it seemed too comand and conquer -esk but you brought some decent points and I can see this being useful [to some extent]. Only one thing though, I think it should be a raven ability. It's flying to it'll bring easier to deploy and still can be used in a bio-only comp. I'd say if we do get widow mines we get rid of seeker missile since they overlap and replace it with this. BANG just did what blizzard does but in 5 minutes and I did a better job. Oi. Blizzard I have great credentials. hit me up with that PM
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On June 17 2012 08:45 Nagano wrote:
Wow that's a really good idea. And for it to be called Smoke Screen, that's so badass that it could only belong to Terran. I wonder if Blizz looks at these unit suggestions because this one in particular is pretty cool. Would of course need to be really examined for uses, because as it looks right now I'm having a hard time imagining it being THAT useful.
Hell yeah it is badass. The Siege Tank is artillery and Smoke Screen Shells are what artillery units in real life have to help friendly units assault an objective or cover their retreat. If you watch the first youtube video (Russian Artillery Smoke) I linked in the OP, that is how awesome it should look when the artwork is finalized. Terrans = Future Humans, so it would make sense that they get this very human-y invention.
Tanks are used extensively in 2 of 3 match ups right now, and there are plenty of uses in TvT and TvZ. TvT I've already explained: Smoke helps you get close to enemy siege lines without taking damage.
In TvZ, imagine if you're (Terran) out in the open on the edge of the creep and you've sieged up your tanks in anticipation of an all out zerg assault. As you see the Zerg army swarm at you on the minimap, you instantly POP a wall of smoke between your army and the Zerg army. Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements.
In addition, these Smoke Screens can be used to mess with enemy AI as you kite back and forth between the smoke layers. Imagine kiting Zealots back and forth behind many layers of smoke set up by your tanks, while the Zealots constantly lose sight of your units and therefore stop attacking for the extra few seconds so that you can get more shots out.
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Reminds me of demon's forest in Proleague, and we can all see how that map turned out.
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On June 17 2012 09:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote:
Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements.
I'm sorry but isn't this beneficial to the zerg since they're mostly composed of short ranged-melee units so they can get close to the longer range terran army (their strength) and just overrun them?
when retreating outside the LOS with zerglings say, you'd save yourself a few tank shots since they cant see past the LOS or is it only a one way thing? isn't this basically blinding cloud? also this would be confusing as hell as a spectator sport trying to figure what's the happening.
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On June 17 2012 09:16 AsymptoticClimax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 09:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote:
Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements. I'm sorry but isn't this beneficial to the zerg since they're mostly composed of short ranged-melee units so they can get close to the longer range terran army (their strength) and just overrun them? when retreating outside the LOS with zerglings say, you'd save yourself a few tank shots since they cant see past the LOS or is it only a one way thing? isn't this basically blinding cloud? also this would be confusing as hell as a spectator sport trying to figure what's the happening.
Yea it is beneficial to the Zerg if you dont' scan to gain vision or have a Medivac fly overhead for vision. But a part of Zerg's control when attacking is knowing where to aim the banelings, if they can't see what's behind the smoke and where the MMM is, then they can't move appropriately. For all the Zerg knows, the Terran could have moved the bio ball behind the tanks or picked them up in the Medivacs. It is all about the mind game of hiding information and surprising your opponent.
It isn't exactly blinding cloud because this ability doesn't directly affect the units. It is more like a "cliff/high ground" generator. By denying vision, you are basically creating a sort of high ground advantage on even ground. This sort thing is dynamic rather than static, so the spell can indeed back fire if used incorrectly. That's what makes it fun.
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On June 15 2012 18:12 lavit2099 wrote:
So basically rework the Viper spell, add a dash of Oracle mass cloak-field and give it to Terran in a bigger, better way. Can't say I'm really all that impressed with the idea.
Read as "Terran imba"
All jokes aside, I like the idea. It just feels like that scrappy, Terran way of fighting and eeking out every little advantage possible.
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On June 17 2012 06:44 CanadianSCgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:34 decaf wrote:
The concept sounds great. Post it on the blizzard forums asap!
It's useless to argue about whether this is OP or not, especially if it's implemented in HotS. No on can ever claim to know how HotS will turn out. Maybe we won't ever see marine tank vs Zerg again?
The idea is good and that's what counts. First get the design straight, then do the balancing. Thank. I just posted it on Blizzard forums, but I really don't know if the Devs will actually read it. Plus the functionality of the Blizzard forums is very rudimentary, so I thought the idea would get more exposure if it were here, on TL. In reply to a few posts: -Yea this ability would work on Warhound as well, but I decided that it would be best on the tank because Warhound can now be freed to take back its original anti-air role as mini-thor/goliath, and the Thor can be removed due to its unpopularity. -This ability isn't really that good early game with the 1-1-1 build (due to low # of tanks) because just like forcefields, the more you have the more powerful it becomes. Plus, it only lasts a short duration, so the Protoss can just back up until the Smoke is gone, then reengage. @Everyone, Thanks for all the feedback, keep them coming. I really wish I knew how to use the Galaxy editor properly so we can actually test this in a game.
Don't you think that the ability should go with the anti air warhound? So it can be used vs mech aswell and be more viable? and it sort of fits?
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EPT
