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POLL
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: This Ability is...Awesome (249) 76% Bad (51) 16% This one is bad, but perhaps another LOS manipulating ability would be better (28) 9% 328 total votes Your vote: This Ability is... (Vote): Awesome
(Vote): Bad
(Vote): This one is bad, but perhaps another LOS manipulating ability would be better
UPDATE!
Link to Post on Blizzard Forums - Please go Support the Idea (Goal is to get a Dev response)
Spell In Action! (With NEW pictures!)
+ Show Spoiler +Thanks to a very talented Mr. Outcast01 at SC2Mapster Forums, the spell is now a Work in Progress! DO NOT FEAR those Siege Lines any longer! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CxCe3.jpg) Smoke OUT! (Now in range of enemy tanks, but no shooting yet  ) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Jdtxe.jpg) Smoke out again, leap frog to get even closer. Knock Knock Siege Line. (No damage taken yet, imagine if you didn't have Smoke Screen Shells) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xB6ac.jpg) Siege Line No More. *Note friendly Raven giving vision this whole time, stressing the importance of vision, whereas red didn't have any. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BqIaY.jpg)
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Test Map
+ Show Spoiler +I've made a very rudimentary map to test the idea of using LOS blocking in big battles. And it is VERY COOL. The dynamic is awesome. You never know what's lurking on the other side of the smoke. Here's the map: Smoke Screen Shell Test MapOpen map in editor, then click the Test Map button. It should load and say you've Won or it's a Tie. Ignore that, and click Return to Game. Change game speed in gameplay menu to suit your needs. Scenario 1: In the middle of the map, you have 3 armies, A-move them to the LEFT. There is a siege line behind the smoke. This simulates blue's defender's advantage using Smoke Screen Shells. Scenario 2: You have a group of unsieged tanks. Use them to lure the Zerg army that's to your right by attacking, then run to the left behind the smoke, leading them into a trap. You can always use your Orbitals to gain vision for yourself. Until a more skillful mapper/coder makes a better version of the map, this will have to do. Enjoy.
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Common Questions Addressed:
+ Show Spoiler +Thanks for all the responses, positive and negative. Allow me to address some of the most common questions or confusions:
1) "Obs, scan, flying building or air units completely negate this ability."
Yea, this ability was designed with these counters in mind. The key to being successful is to catch your opponent off guard with it. With a quiet sound effect (since it's smoke not explosive), your opponent will be forced to keep their eyes on their armies and not just macro. In addition, this ability requires air superiority and it is not equally useful in all MUs. It was mostly intended to help break Siege Lines.
2) "This is confusing and bad for spectators."
Don't underestimate the intelligence of spectators. Game Observers can always switch between the visions of two players or explain the ability. Since Smoke Grenades and Screens are existing in the real world used by real militaries, I don't see how it would be more difficult to explain than say Graviton Beam. Plus, we already by LOS blockers on maps, and people seem to get it fine.
3) "It is like Dark Swarm, Optical Flare, etc."
You are somewhat correct because these spells all manipulate vision. However, Smoke Screen Shell is unique because it only blocks lines of sight and can be used by both players depending on who has vision on either side of the smoke.
4) ***IMPORTANT: Still pictures cannot show the dynamics of this ability. You must use your imagination. The screenshots only show one instant MOMENT during the battle. In theory, the Smoke Screen Shell may negate sight for its entire duration, but in PRACTICE, that's rarely the case. It is meant to buy you time. Reduce 1 or 2 volleys of shots from incoming tanks. Sometimes that's all you need. For example, of the 15s of duration, you may actually have 5s to move or get close before your opponent realizes what is happening and scan. Or your Siege Line may get a short, but precious, 7s (enough to get 1 or 2 extra shots off) of free reign over an assaulting enemy Protoss or Zerg army before their spotting Observers or Overlords reveal your tanks that are behind the smoke. Another example, if a Zerg is crafty he'll make you think he doesn't have vision but had already placed a burrowed infestor under your army, rendering any Smoke Screens useless. Remember, just because a spell lasts a certain time, it doesn't mean that it is effective for that amount of time (e.g. Storms can be dodged, etc.) ***
I hope you will try to read the entire thread before posting because it is likely that your concern has already been addressed and covered. Perhaps someone can enlist their Galaxy Editor expertise and make this so we can see a video of it in action or have play tests to determine it's viability.
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Main Thread:
For HOTS, Blizzard is experimenting with ideas to help Terrans break siege lines. Their answer right now is the Warhound's missile pack. But the ability itself is quite straight forward and not very interesting to watch. Of the many new elements of SC2, I think the most underrated one is the manipulation of unit vision. The LOS blockers on maps are interesting, but what if this concept were made into an ability?
New Siege Tank Ability - "Smoke Screen Shell"
-Basically works as a temporary LOS blocker (lasts 15-20s) *all figures are tentative
-Fired from Siege Tanks on a cool down (30-60s)
-Can be used offensively and defensively
-Works like current neutral LOS blockers on maps
-The ability itself doesn't grant you vision. You need vision to fire it at full range. You need vision to see past friendly or enemy Smoke Screens.
-The ability does NOT require research. It is automatically given to Siege Tanks in both modes and can be used in both modes, albeit with different ranges depending on modes. Sieged mode (2-13). Unsieged mode (7).
This ability FITS the lore and style of the Terran race. Terrans emphasize army positioning and movement. This ability gives the Terran army that power. Smoke Screen Shell works like modern smoke grenades, smoke artillery rounds or tank smoke dispensers. The purpose of smoke is to cover troop movement, in advance or retreat. (0:46 of video)
+ Show Spoiler +
Attack:
Launch some Smoke Screen Shells ahead of your army to block vision so you can get close without taking damage. (Yes, those LOS doodads are placeholders, but they simulate the size, shape and effect of the final ability). *This is the observer's POV. Red (you) still need to gain vision in order to actually attack/shoot Blue (enemy).
+ Show Spoiler +
What your enemy sees (or don't see )
+ Show Spoiler +
*Also I know the pictures kind of look weird because the units aren't facing the right directions, but I'm not good at using the editor and everything is a mock up. So for now, there are arrows. 
Defend:
If your enemy is attacking into your Siege Tanks, launch smoke rounds nearby to block their vision. Like the placement of forcefields, you can use multiple smoke screens to make a larger shape of wall, aligned or staggered. Unlike forcefields, units can walk through. Now look at how much ground the enemy has to cover before gaining vision of your tanks. They will take terrible terrible damage from the few extra shots you'll be able to get off. *Observer's POV, Tanks still need some kind of vision. A scan would be best in this case to see the Protoss units.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is the POV of the advancing Protoss Army. One cannot attack what one cannot see. Protoss would need to be creative. Send in an observer, keep it from getting sniped. Or run a unit in front of the main group.
+ Show Spoiler +
In Retreat
It's a TRAP! Scenario: Use retreating Siege Tanks to bait Zerg army into a trap. Launch Smoke Screen to conceal your retreat and prevent zerg from seeing the Terran trap, much like burrowed Banelings, except you are hiding an entire army. (Green indicates retreat and Red indicates attack). *Note the different angles and shapes you can form from shooting smoke from different angles.
+ Show Spoiler +
What the Zerg would see. Smart players could use this as a double fake, feigning a trap so that their tanks will survive.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I made that in editor, but I'm not a coder. If you guys think this is something interesting enough to be explored, then maybe someone who is more experienced with the coder can make this ability and prove this concept.
Here are some tentative "prototype" test attributes:
Range: As far as Siege Tanks can fire
Duration: 10-15s (Enough time for tanks to Unsiege after using Smoke Screen, and attack with main army)
Cooldown: 30-60s (Short enough to be reused for dynamic movement, but not enough to be spammy at the same time)
Approximate size of the ability compared to other units.
+ Show Spoiler +
- Works like any other LOS blocker. The enemy can gain vision with all the regular ways to gain vision on map, such as scans, obs, air units, etc.
-Ability can be used in both Sieged and Unsieged mode, but range will be reduced to the range of Unsieged Tank in Unsieged mode (like real-world tanks)
-The line of smoke is always perpendicular (90 degrees) to the direction of firing. Multiple tanks can fire rounds in combination to form larger Smoke Screens of different shapes.
- Launches like a missile, flies like a projectile, meaning the Shell doesn't get to the target area instantaneously (but still fairly fast, like EMP from Ghosts). This gives both you and your opponent enough time to either regroup or react.
- Makes a distinctive, but soft, sound effect so that you know the ability is being used even if you or your opponent is not watching the army. This allows time for players to react.
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Please give your constructive feedback. Perhaps help me think of some gameplay implications this will create (I will add to OP).
Gameplay/Misc. Implications:
- Frees Warhound to do an Anti-Air role again. Thor can be removed.
- Unique Ability that is interesting and dynamic to watch.
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These threads aren't really allowed as far as I know, but for what it's worth, I really think such an ability would work wonders in making the tank more dynamic, I like it.
Smoke screen just feels very Terran-y
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I think this is an interesting skill, perhaps could open up a lot of potential for cool things. Can Terran just magically see past the smoke screen though? Or will they need some sort of extra vision.
Only thing I'm worried about is it becoming an ability along the lines of fungal / forcefields which are impossible to micro against once they are put down
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looks good! what about air spotters though, wouldnt it counter this?
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If an air unit was right behind where the enemy smoke shell was fired, will it also lose vision like a ground unit would if it were right behind the smoke as well?
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On June 15 2012 17:39 Saechiis wrote:
These threads aren't really allowed as far as I know, but for what it's worth, I really think such an ability would work wonders in making the tank more dynamic, I like it.
Smoke screen just feels very Terran-y
How come these threads aren't allowed? This is a discussion about SC2 and it is in SC2 General.
EDIT,
Yes it works just like any other LOS. Air units will reveal through the Fog of War. But the trick is to have your own vikings or anti air to chase away the spotters.
This is meant to be a Temporary ability. You launch and go! Don't sit around. If there's a spotter, you kill that spotter, launch the Screen, then attack or in some special cases, retreat.
This is also meant to catch your opponent off guard. If they are not watching their army, your army will be on top of theirs before they know what happened. But if they are paying attention, then they can scan you or reveal you in another way, and then the battle will progress normally.
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I think it's a great premise and you did a good job explaining it.
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It's a cool idea, not sure how balanced it'd turn out to be though
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On June 15 2012 17:40 Superiorwolf wrote:
I think this is an interesting skill, perhaps could open up a lot of potential for cool things. Can Terran just magically see past the smoke screen though? Or will they need some sort of extra vision.
Only thing I'm worried about is it becoming an ability along the lines of fungal / forcefields which are impossible to micro against once they are put down
I think this is good because you can actually counter it pretty easily. Against fungals you can't do anything, against forcefields you need massive units, but against this I'm sure it's easy to counter as long as you're looking at your army (high apm!), say moving a few units forward or moving your air units forward, or scanning, etc.
I'm sure it can make for a lot of other cool things, such as firing smoke shells just to bait scans, or feigning attacks while dropping etc.
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On June 15 2012 17:43 CanadianSCgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 17:39 Saechiis wrote:
These threads aren't really allowed as far as I know, but for what it's worth, I really think such an ability would work wonders in making the tank more dynamic, I like it.
Smoke screen just feels very Terran-y How come these threads aren't allowed? This is a discussion about SC2 and it is in SC2 General.
Maybe because HotS isn't released yet and we have no idea how the final game will turn out to be? but this is a new idea and not analysis on a Blizzard Idea (TM), so this should pass. Decent idea, at that.
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I voted awesome, I enjoyed the presentation of this. Though I don't believe that specific ability should be used, I wasn't going to go so far as to say that the idea was bad. I'm not sure if the tank is the proper unit, since you turn what should essentially be a less micro intensive unit into a more micro intensive unit and it may just allow the tank to do too much; it already has absurd single target dps and massive range / burst / aoe damage.
I feel like the Reaper would be good for this, forcing troop diversity and holding up barracks build times / research in compensation for a rather powerful ability for bio (mech doesn't really care about this I don't think).
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I wouldn't call it 'awesome' just yet, but it's alot better than some of the other blizzard ideas out there.
Hmph, I'd support this.
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I would love this idea, just because vision is really half baked in SC2. The concept is only tangible from early high ground engagements and tower control. Anything that can force more strategic choices with less information is welcome in my book!
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15s would be too long since you have to take into account that usually you have quite a lot of tanks, but otherwise i think it could be an interesting ability as long as it researchable in the tech lab so it can't lead to new all-ins and make it uncastable on ramps (think: Protoss defending at the ramp against a tank all-in and can't see when the marines are running up, so no way to forcefield properly)
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The problem is simply that terran rarely wants sight blockers. It'd really only be useful when you're attacking into another terrans tank line, which I don't really think needs a change(furthermore the terran should at that stage just be able to scan to counter the vision loss). For vP and vZ, the only time you want vision blockers is rine vs stalker early-earlymidgame(at a time where tanks obv wont be out). It'd be interesting admittedly against certain toss allins, but at the same time, those it'd work well against, a sieged tank already makes very weak.
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Interesting idea, but I see quickly see 2 big problems with it.
1. It's the same functionality as a short-term cloak.
2. It's difficult to represent it visually to the spectator. It either obscures the view of the entire screen, or it affecting the vision of only 1 side can make it confusing to a viewer.
It'll require quite some tweaking, but because of especially point 2, I see it difficult to be put in.
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On June 15 2012 17:58 Woizit wrote:
Interesting idea, but I see quickly see 2 big problems with it.
1. It's the same functionality as a short-term cloak.
2. It's difficult to represent it visually to the spectator. It either obscures the view of the entire screen, or it affecting the vision of only 1 side can make it confusing to a viewer.
It'll require quite some tweaking, but because of especially point 2, I see it difficult to be put in.
@no.1
Not necessarily, you can regain sight with an air unit.
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Somehow I like your idea. On the other hand it seems to me like too similar to the Blinding Cloud Ability but since I am not happy how Blinding Cloud does I think this will be a great addition to the game.
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I for one understand their need to break away some stale scenarios in TvT. We're all like "TvT is awesome, so positional and cool, tactical blahblahblah". Then you watch foreign TvT, European TvT to be precise. That's about the most boring thing I've ever seen, oh boy what would I give to see a Happy vs Goody Bo11. Korean TvT on the other hand is a whole different matchup.
Regardless, cool idea anyway ;D
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So basically rework the Viper spell, add a dash of Oracle mass cloak-field and give it to Terran in a bigger, better way. Can't say I'm really all that impressed with the idea.
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wow really nice idea it forces air vision, maybe siege tanks aren't the perfect unit to cast this, but this is 100x times better than the bored warhound
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I think it is a good idea, however the line of sight blocker should work both way and detecting units should be able to see past it (e.g. scans, observers and overseers).
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This looks really interesting, but I guess this would be rather hard to balance, it may take tanks totally out of TvT, and I dont think Blizzard would like that.
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At least this idea is attempting to solve the issue in a less direct way.
You could try flipping it around though and making it function like darkswarm in scbw. So you would cast it on your own units (you could just make it so the smoke always appears on top of the tank) to prevent them from taking ranged damage. Might be broken but worth mentioning about I guess. At the very least instead of creating a line of los blockers it could spawn a cloud of smoke.
Dark Swarm casts a cloud over an area which prevents both friendly and enemy units (but not structures) under the cloud from taking damage from ranged attacks.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I really like the idea but in that Protoss image, how does the tanks see the protoss army to shoot?
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This won't make any difference in TvT, because terrans already need air control for vision. As long as one air unit exists (which is basically all the time past early game) this will have no effect at all.
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On June 15 2012 18:16 Atoissen wrote:
This looks really interesting, but I guess this would be rather hard to balance, it may take tanks totally out of TvT, and I dont think Blizzard would like that.
The interesting thing is that you actually need tanks to fire these LOS blockers heh.
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On June 15 2012 18:18 Qikz wrote:
I really like the idea but in that Protoss image, how does the tanks see the protoss army to shoot?
The regular old fashion way. Scan or send in a unit to get vision.
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This makes no sense since past early game you'll have flying units with your army (obs, overseer).
LoS just isn't important other than early game and small clashes/harrass. That's also why highground is pretty meaningless in SC2, without the highground advantage you had in BW/WC3(/DotA).
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Anything is better than the warhound. That unit actually requires no thought or has any other use outside of "break siege lines" to turn TvT into a blobfest.
I do like the idea tho. Will it work both ways i.e it blocks terran vision as well forcing you to scan above it or have units to spot on the other side?
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This needs to happen (not sure about it being specifically on the siege tank though), great idea!
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Can the person who fires the smokescreen see past it?
Also this might make it really hard to early expand in tvt because a seige tank push with smoke would be really strong.
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Hehe it kinda resembles dark swarm.
Blizzard is terribly terribly uncreative these days. Its not even like there even needs to be another boring 1a2a3a unit that can "break a siege line". Siege tank lines don't even exist anymore. Its really getting on my nerves.
Good job on coming up with something creative though. I would actually love to see this replace marauders as well.
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On June 15 2012 17:58 Woizit wrote:
Interesting idea, but I see quickly see 2 big problems with it.
1. It's the same functionality as a short-term cloak.
2. It's difficult to represent it visually to the spectator. It either obscures the view of the entire screen, or it affecting the vision of only 1 side can make it confusing to a viewer.
It'll require quite some tweaking, but because of especially point 2, I see it difficult to be put in.
It's not difficult; both players are affected by LoS blocking, it's just expected that Terran has the air superiority when this is used...
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Too powerful for any one race to have as an ability. LoS Blocker ability will be abused to death.
I'll give a thumbs down vote
-1
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Funny idea. Maybe you can email it to Blizzard, who knows?
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On June 15 2012 18:24 Dalavita wrote:
Anything is better than the warhound. That unit actually requires no thought or has any other use outside of "break siege lines" to turn TvT into a blobfest.
I do like the idea tho. Will it work both ways i.e it blocks terran vision as well forcing you to scan above it or have units to spot on the other side?
Yea the Smoke Screen doesn't grant vision. One way to gain vision is to fly a building near your army. But then your opponent may just disengage and run away.
By the same token, you can always move your army and attacking from a direction where your opponent doesn't have vision or is likely to get caught off guard.
The ability works to buy you time for you to MOVE (get close or get away). It doesn't make you invulnerable or anything.
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![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100604235561/starcraft/images/a/a0/InterOpFlare_Terran_SC1.PNG)
100m
100g
Research time 80s
Researched at Academy
Usage: 75 Energy
Range 9.
The medic reduces the sight of an enemy unit to 1 and removes any detection ability.
So you pretty much want this back.
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^Beside the fact that is not single target
Really like this idea!
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On June 15 2012 18:37 Probe1 wrote:100m 100g Research time 80s Researched at Academy Usage: 75 Energy Range 9. The medic reduces the sight of an enemy unit to 1 and removes any detection ability.
So you pretty much want this back.
Optical flare wasn't an aoe spell if I remember correctly.
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Woaw, this is actually the most viable idea I've seen on TL/Blizz forums so far. Generally fan submitted ideas are heavily imbalanced in favour of the race the're for but this would actually be a simple and interesting addition. I mean Basically any flying unit next to the smoke line makes it useless so any OV, Medivac, Observer can counter that, making it an interesting addition that can be dealt with pretty quickly. However good players might be able to utilize it to bait enemy positioning, to cover there retreat, to establish siege lines etc, without it being too game changing.
And I don't think it's the same as the BW Medic's ability. We don't reduce one ennemy's sight radius to 1 but block vision for a few seconds at a precise point on the map. And it's still something ANY AIR unit can counter by flying over the screen and providing vision on both sides of it.
Great idea sir, really hopes Blizz could look into that ....
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On June 15 2012 18:31 Ktk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 17:58 Woizit wrote:
Interesting idea, but I see quickly see 2 big problems with it.
1. It's the same functionality as a short-term cloak.
2. It's difficult to represent it visually to the spectator. It either obscures the view of the entire screen, or it affecting the vision of only 1 side can make it confusing to a viewer.
It'll require quite some tweaking, but because of especially point 2, I see it difficult to be put in. It's not difficult; both players are affected by LoS blocking, it's just expected that Terran has the air superiority when this is used...
Yes, it'll definitely be much better if both players are affected instead of how it's demostrated in the OP. I still feel that it can be a concern if you have 10+ of those LoS blockers on the battlefield as they generally obscure vision even for the viewer. It looks very good on the small scale, but I just feel that it can look messy if there's a large number of these things around.
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this combined with scan would be very powerful, how you should the tanks casting it right in front of them that alone makes it op. Scans would never let the toss engage. Like dark swarm but better for terran.
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On June 15 2012 18:52 Woizit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 18:31 Ktk wrote:On June 15 2012 17:58 Woizit wrote:
Interesting idea, but I see quickly see 2 big problems with it.
1. It's the same functionality as a short-term cloak.
2. It's difficult to represent it visually to the spectator. It either obscures the view of the entire screen, or it affecting the vision of only 1 side can make it confusing to a viewer.
It'll require quite some tweaking, but because of especially point 2, I see it difficult to be put in. It's not difficult; both players are affected by LoS blocking, it's just expected that Terran has the air superiority when this is used... Yes, it'll definitely be much better if both players are affected instead of how it's demostrated in the OP. I still feel that it can be a concern if you have 10+ of those LoS blockers on the battlefield as they generally obscure vision even for the viewer. It looks very good on the small scale, but I just feel that it can look messy if there's a large number of these things around.
Yea both players are affected. The pictures shown are from the Observer's point of view. The LOS blockers won't be cluttered visually if done right. Right now, that's all the artwork I have to work with. Plus, they are not meant to stay around (short duration) or for you to stare at. Players use them, then they will move out. Moreover, they won't be any more confusing to spectators than the numerous LOS doodads that we have on maps now.
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i hope people realize this concept can be introduced for any race -_- so keep that in mind before your spidey senses start tingling.
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Sound pertty cool, though I think it would be cooler if it was fierd from the hellion.
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this is like blind from BW, i like it
actually is exactly like blind, except that does not affect obs detection
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It's a great idea. It promotes tactical strategy and positioning in an evermore a-movey game.
But with the ubiquity of tanks, you'd be looking at 8-15 available smoke screens at any given time, making it very spammable. You could possibly transfer it to Orbital Commands, thus giving it weight in opportunity cost when it contends with MULE and Scan.
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Introducing blinds to the game would either be either entirely useless or completely broken. If detection can see through it im sure everyone would just make more detection thus negating it or detection can't see through it and you're horribly fucked so I just seriously hope this idea never comes into play.
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On June 15 2012 19:21 LRObot wrote:
It's a great idea. It promotes tactical strategy and positioning in an evermore a-movey game.
But with the ubiquity of tanks, you'd be looking at 8-15 available smoke screens at any given time, making it very spammable. You could possibly transfer it to Orbital Commands, thus giving it weight in opportunity cost when it contends with MULE and Scan.
Maybe a limited use per unit like Vulture mines?
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siege tank lines are more lategamish and LoS is more a problem in the early game, so doubt it would help alot. I always wished though that Blizzard added a special not-in-battle-shot to the siege tank to buff it a little.
And the natural enemies to tanks are melee units currently, and they would actually benefit more from the LoS blockers. So this would probably be only seen as part of early game attacks, which are generally do or die if tanks are involved.
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I like the idea but lore wise having long narrow smoke screens seem just plain wrong, maybe having a circular effect effect would fit better, you could even have the units IN the smoke screen unable to see each other unless a detector is present.
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tanks are soooo bad already
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On June 15 2012 18:34 ArcLiTe wrote:
Too powerful for any one race to have as an ability. LoS Blocker ability will be abused to death.
I'll give a thumbs down vote
-1
Kinda like if you gave one race the ability to create an indestructible wall at will using only energy, oh wait.... lol
I kinda like the idea but I don't think it's really doable as it would be too difficult and limited as to what angles you could put it at.
Unless you made it like a 3x3 box or something
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I would prefer this be on a flying caster unit (cough cough Raven). It would prevent early game all-in abuse/shenanigans, and make the raven useful in something other than tvt late game
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I think this is an amazing idea. Obviously it would have to be tuned and playtested, but I love the concept of manipulating vision. The zerg get something similar that only affects the range, not the vision itself, I think this would be a nice counterpart to it, affecting just vision and not the range.
Plus it has a high skill ceiling, because improper use would make you shoot your own foot, just like forcefields can end up hurting the protoss this ability would only be good in the hands of a truly good player.
kudos!
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This is a sweet idea. Should probably be posted on the bnet forums and not here, though.
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I don't think it's useful past the early game since then most people will have obs and overseers out. Plus don't think it's useful for siege tank.
Just keep aos blocking as it is, with aos doodads hiding important spots on the map.
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On June 15 2012 19:51 Adonminus wrote:
I don't think it's useful past the early game since then most people will have obs and overseers out. Plus don't think it's useful for siege tank.
Just keep aos blocking as it is, with aos doodads hiding important spots on the map.
Or literally anything that that gives air vision. A mutalisk? A colossus? A viking? This whole idea is pointless past early game. My mind is truly boggled how no one seems to even think of this.
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On June 15 2012 19:57 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 19:51 Adonminus wrote:
I don't think it's useful past the early game since then most people will have obs and overseers out. Plus don't think it's useful for siege tank.
Just keep aos blocking as it is, with aos doodads hiding important spots on the map. Or literally anything that that gives air vision. A mutalisk? A colossus? A viking? This whole idea is pointless past early game. My mind is truly boggled how no one seems to even think of this.
Yes, exactly. Really not that useful at all...
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Great idea in theory, super imbalanced in real life I would say
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On June 15 2012 19:59 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 19:57 SolidMoose wrote:On June 15 2012 19:51 Adonminus wrote:
I don't think it's useful past the early game since then most people will have obs and overseers out. Plus don't think it's useful for siege tank.
Just keep aos blocking as it is, with aos doodads hiding important spots on the map. Or literally anything that that gives air vision. A mutalisk? A colossus? A viking? This whole idea is pointless past early game. My mind is truly boggled how no one seems to even think of this. Yes, exactly. Really not that useful at all...
Yes, and that's exactly why this is a good ability. It takes skill to use and it is dynamic. It might be terrible if not used correctly, but extremely powerful if it is.
Be creative guys! Mutas/Colossus/Viking can all be shot by Terran Anti-Air. Destroy enemy vision and you will gain a huge advantage. If not, then the battle will be the same as it is without this ability, nothing will be different from any regular fight anyways.
Also, try and catch your enemy off guard. It is impossible to pay attention all the time and keep the max vision. If this isn't true, then Terrans currently would never be able to sneak tanks slightly into Siege range, but not vision range, to destroy unknowing enemy tanks.
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I think if this ability is coming out from the Warhound, instead of the "auto-target to mech" thing. From the missile launcher on top of the warhound, you can launch smoke screen would be cool.
But then again, this overlaps with the Viper's blinding cloud (if it is still in the game).
The concept is like cloak, Dark swarm.
Vision thing can be counter by a scan or flying units. So this is definitely a viable and balance ablity.
In the pictures you have showed, it is confusing because you use the smoke wall mechanic. I was confused at first seeing each players POV. But it could just be changed into a cloud thing.
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I am not sure how much effect of such an ability will affect the match-ups. Let's see:
TvT : the ability can limit marine marauders sight range... but Terran can neutralize it with scans or a floating barrack. On the other hand medivac will be out @ around 10:00. Once medivac is out, the smake screen is more or less useless. Even if the tanking guy go for vikings, you need 3 vikings to 2 shot a medivac.... so ...the marauder Terran can push with 2 medivac @ 10:00 saving 1 scan. In short, the screen is useless in "main" engagement after 10:00.
If we only look at its usefulness before 10:00, assuming you go 1 rax expand... the earliest tank you can get is about 7:15. As a result, you can only have 1 to 3 tanks to hold off the marauder pushes before 10:00. The ability has to be effective for having only 3 tanks. The tanking better to be able to lay at least 2 layers of smoke screen before 10:00 or else the ability will be actually useless( to waste 1 scan, then the MM will not be able to push through the second layer).
TvP: Can be useful against stalkers, since they cannot blink into places with no vision, and also delay the charge on zealots. However, every standard protoss will have observer out @ 7:30 which can allow it to see through the screen. After 12:30, most protoss will have colossus out which can give vision. Then the effectiveness of the ability will come down to observer sniping which protoss will have the upper hand most of the time. In conclusion, the ability has very limited uses in straight up TvP engagement.
TvZ: It's useless on creeps and after mutalisks are out, so the window for it to be useful will be between 7:15 to 9:00 ( assuming 1 rax expo again). However, the smoke screen can help a ton in counter attacks. Zergs will hardly have spotters when they are doing counter attacks.. and they may be scared and retreat once they took 1 tank shot cuz they have no idea how many more is back there. In straight up defense, they can neutralize roaches, which tanks always do, but it forces the zerg to poke through the screen with either muta or overlord/overseers.I guess everyone knows that marine can kill these units quite easily, thus delaying the push. This can bring some new dynamic to the match up^ ^ . The ability can be really useful in TvZ then.
In conclusion, the ability is only useful for retreat in most match-ups. It is really interesting in TvZ. Terran can hardly benefit from it in any form agressions and the timing window for it to shine is very small. Thus, I would say that the ability should come free with tanks. Any upgrades delaying it to make an impact in the game might be too much. Moreover, if we want the ability to have an impact in the late games, it needs a buff. Maybe something like units in the smoke screen have increased chance to miss unless the targets were tracked by sensor towers.
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Huge NO. This would be so imbalanced.
Think TvP, terran have always air control, always. You can't bring observer there coz there is always raven. As protoss you would never get vision to terran army. HUGE NO. I don't want more imbalanced thing to hots than there at the moment is.
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A smoke screen actually sounds like a great idea, if blizzard tried this I think the tvt match up would be a whole lot more interesting
Just a idea:
What about if the smoke screen was fired off by marauders rather than tanks? This would be great for people doing bio in tvt against mech or marine tank, especially at lower leagues (like myself) where I dont really have the multitasking skill to do a huge amount of harassment or micro with bio but I also hate using tanks in tvt, the smoke screen could allow a bio ball to get closer to tank lines unseen potentially avoiding one or two tank volley's in the process. Potentially making direct head to head bio pushes more viable.
I would love to see more pro's go bio in tvt matches and this might make it more viable
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On June 15 2012 20:28 Rocno wrote:
A smoke screen actually sounds like a great idea, if blizzard tried this I think the tvt match up would be a whole lot more interesting
Just a idea:
What about if the smoke screen was fired off by marauders rather than tanks? This would be great for people doing bio in tvt against mech or marine tank, especially at lower leagues (like myself) where I dont really have the multitasking skill to do a huge amount of harassment or micro with bio but I also hate using tanks in tvt, the smoke screen could allow a bio ball to get closer to tank lines unseen potentially avoiding one or two tank volley's in the process. Potentially making direct head to head bio pushes more viable.
I would love to see more pro's go bio in tvt matches and this might make it more viable
The OP idea is to promote more positional play, which suits better for tanks. If it is given to the marauders, it actually does the opposite of the OP's intention. It make countering tanks easier, i.e. breaking positions.
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This idea is, of course, absolute rubbish.
It has to mean nothing in TvT as scans have to see through, otherwise whoever fires the first smoke shells wins, and it would greatly mess up TvZ and TvP.
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On June 15 2012 20:50 Jinsho wrote:
This idea is, of course, absolute rubbish.
It has to mean nothing in TvT as scans have to see through, otherwise whoever fires the first smoke shells wins, and it would greatly mess up TvZ and TvP.
I have to agree with this. The intention is great, but the execution was just poor. TvT would just be a LoS battle, while this would IMO make Tank/Marine much harder to deal with as Zerg.
Doesn't affect TvP AS much if it is a researched ability, but if not, the 1-1-1 just got a hell of a lot stronger again.
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This is the best theorycrafting thread I've seen in a long time.
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On June 15 2012 20:56 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 20:50 Jinsho wrote:
This idea is, of course, absolute rubbish.
It has to mean nothing in TvT as scans have to see through, otherwise whoever fires the first smoke shells wins, and it would greatly mess up TvZ and TvP. I have to agree with this. The intention is great, but the execution was just poor. TvT would just be a LoS battle, while this would IMO make Tank/Marine much harder to deal with as Zerg. Doesn't affect TvP AS much if it is a researched ability, but if not, the 1-1-1 just got a hell of a lot stronger again.
To all quoted posters:
TvT is already a LOS battle XD. This ability is meant to change that up a little bit to give it a more back and forth dynamic. Since Siege Lines are quite static, smoke allows players to attack into a entrenched position. Think WW1 and trench warfare.
Of course scans can see through. Any ability that has no counter is sort of broken, even fungals can be countered by splits, and forcefields indirectly by EMP.
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Zerg will have a borrowed style broodlord/lurker and dark swarm/blinding cloud and abduct from viper
Protoss will have cloaking field from the oracle
Terran will have a move mini thors.
but in my personal opinions the siege tank is too one dimensional, other units such as hellion do better w/micro vs. light and maurders more cost efficient, you need a critical mass of the tanks for them to work, and even then there mobility can be abused by higher level players. i would actually say tanks need more dmg per shot to see any real use in Hots past 6 months.
Sorry for bad spelling and grammar x
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looks like someone has problems with siege tanks hehe
i think there are enough possibilties to deal with em
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Idk. First, Air is important in ant Tank relate fight so I can't see how useful is this. Plus scan
Also Warhound meant to make Mech viable in TvP as the Auto Anti Mech bypass Immortal Shield
I think the smoke idea is pretty cool, very Terran-ish. But unless they decide to remove Blinding Cloud (which is a terrible skill imo) then a Sight Block or Dark Swarm ability type would work. Or maybe an AoE ability that consume AoE effect
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thats awesome! so i guess 'defensively' means drop screens then scan their army so ucan attack them but they can tattack you? win!
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Excellent idea, sounds well worth exploring. Modern tanks already have smoke launchers, seems unlikely that they'll forget that anytime soon. The current terran HoTS offerings look very weak due to a general reduction in micro potential while it'll make the sub gold league happy it can only hurt the game in the long run. I wish they'd give up on the warhound and bring in a MK2 goliath.
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I don't even know why Blizzard is interested in making siege lines easier to break in TvT. Positional play and the comeback potential that strong defender's advantage creates is a big part of what makes TvT good. It's like they don't even understand their own game.
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On June 15 2012 20:50 Jinsho wrote:
This idea is, of course, absolute rubbish.
It has to mean nothing in TvT as scans have to see through, otherwise whoever fires the first smoke shells wins, and it would greatly mess up TvZ and TvP.
This internet tough guy may express his opinion in a better way, but he's right.
In TvT the scans are going to completely nullify the LOS effect, in TvZ all the zerg has to do is bringing some mutalisks, or if he's going with another army composition he can use speed overlords or oversees without being forced to change his build at all.
So, it's an ability that it's not going to change at all 2 of the 3 matchups.
About TvP instead it could break the meta: T rushes to tank, pushes on one base, scans to get upper ground vision and then uses LOS to negate vision for the forcefields.
I like the idea overall and I think it's cool... just not viable in this current way.
No idea about how to improve it altough.
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I like the thought but always hoped it would be given to Zerg (Protoss player here)
Ive always assumed that blizzard would try to experiment more with this mechanic.
I was hoping, for example, that it would be able to block xelnaga watch towers so that the mapmakers could control how the tower gives vision (for example, vision on one side but not the other, which is interesting because it increases the ways that watchtowers can be positioned (not giving a full 360 degree view can add a lot of flexibility and strategy for mapmakers who want one attack path to be easily scouted while another is less easy to keep an eye on).
Anyway, Ive also always hoped that they give a mechanic like this to a race, specifically Zerg. Blinding cloud is a step in the right direction but not really what I had in mind.
I imagined an early/mid-game ability (maybe on the queen or overlord or creep tumor?) that allows you to set up line of sight blockers, which would be permanent on creep. I think this fits really well with the Zerg race because:
1) the importance of flanking, positioning, etc for the Zerg
2) the numerous short-ranged units that Zerg has (LoS blockers even the playing field for short ranged units)
3) the abundance of overlords which has great synergy with such an ability allowing the Zerg to see over the obstacle but the enemy to be blind.
As an early terran or protoss army pushes on to creep, they will be slowed by each line of LoS blockers, fearing banelings, zergling/roach flanks, buried unit ambushes etc on the home turf of the Zerg. Creep and Overlord sight will give the Zerg a solid idea of the progress of the invading army, however.
I hadnt thought about it as a Terran ability because as people have said, I think it becomes more limited as the game goes on and air units and scans become more abundant. This ability would be best in the early game as a type of soft defensive mechanic which is why I think it would work best for Zerg.
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On June 15 2012 21:46 MavivaM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 20:50 Jinsho wrote:
This idea is, of course, absolute rubbish.
It has to mean nothing in TvT as scans have to see through, otherwise whoever fires the first smoke shells wins, and it would greatly mess up TvZ and TvP. This internet tough guy may express his opinion in a better way, but he's right. In TvT the scans are going to completely nullify the LOS effect, in TvZ all the zerg has to do is bringing some mutalisks, or if he's going with another army composition he can use speed overlords or oversees without being forced to change his build at all. So, it's an ability that it's not going to change at all 2 of the 3 matchups. About TvP instead it could break the meta: T rushes to tank, pushes on one base, scans to get upper ground vision and then uses LOS to negate vision for the forcefields. I like the idea overall and I think it's cool... just not viable in this current way. No idea about how to improve it altough.
In TvT, I mostly agree what you said, just that ..scan nearly nullify it, instead of completely XD
In TvP though, I think obs will be early enough to nullify it too, especially you are going heavy on gas, and they will prepare for banshee.
My reasoning and suggestion are written in an earlier post :
+ Show Spoiler +On June 15 2012 20:16 Roarer wrote:
I am not sure how much effect of such an ability will affect the match-ups. Let's see:
TvT : the ability can limit marine marauders sight range... but Terran can neutralize it with scans or a floating barrack. On the other hand medivac will be out @ around 10:00. Once medivac is out, the smake screen is more or less useless. Even if the tanking guy go for vikings, you need 3 vikings to 2 shot a medivac.... so ...the marauder Terran can push with 2 medivac @ 10:00 saving 1 scan. In short, the screen is useless in "main" engagement after 10:00.
If we only look at its usefulness before 10:00, assuming you go 1 rax expand... the earliest tank you can get is about 7:15. As a result, you can only have 1 to 3 tanks to hold off the marauder pushes before 10:00. The ability has to be effective for having only 3 tanks. The tanking better to be able to lay at least 2 layers of smoke screen before 10:00 or else the ability will be actually useless( to waste 1 scan, then the MM will not be able to push through the second layer).
TvP: Can be useful against stalkers, since they cannot blink into places with no vision, and also delay the charge on zealots. However, every standard protoss will have observer out @ 7:30 which can allow it to see through the screen. After 12:30, most protoss will have colossus out which can give vision. Then the effectiveness of the ability will come down to observer sniping which protoss will have the upper hand most of the time. In conclusion, the ability has very limited uses in straight up TvP engagement.
TvZ: It's useless on creeps and after mutalisks are out, so the window for it to be useful will be between 7:15 to 9:00 ( assuming 1 rax expo again). However, the smoke screen can help a ton in counter attacks. Zergs will hardly have spotters when they are doing counter attacks.. and they may be scared and retreat once they took 1 tank shot cuz they have no idea how many more is back there. In straight up defense, they can neutralize roaches, which tanks always do, but it forces the zerg to poke through the screen with either muta or overlord/overseers.I guess everyone knows that marine can kill these units quite easily, thus delaying the push. This can bring some new dynamic to the match up^ ^ . The ability can be really useful in TvZ then.
In conclusion, the ability is only useful for retreat in most match-ups. It is really interesting in TvZ. Terran can hardly benefit from it in any form agressions and the timing window for it to shine is very small. Thus, I would say that the ability should come free with tanks. Any upgrades delaying it to make an impact in the game might be too much. Moreover, if we want the ability to have an impact in the late games, it needs a buff. Maybe something like units in the smoke screen have increased chance to miss unless the targets were tracked by sensor towers.
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@OP
Blizzard would never remove Thor. The CE skin prevents them from replacing the Thor. Unless they have a loophole saying that the CE skin was only for WOL.
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I think it would be better to replace Thors strike cannons with this. Would make this ability more costly + higher tech and also keep the armies / strats more varied. Having energy on Thors only for feedback is not good game design IMO.
Or you could give Thors this as another, maybe more expensive ability, I heard strike cannons can be useful against ultras in HotS.
If tanks get this ability TvT's are not going to be fun at all, and I doubt it would be balanced in other match-ups either.
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I don't quite get something.
Sometimes people will claim an idea is imbalanced and explain how it favours one race over an other, therefore the idea won't get much attention.
But here people are basically claiming that because every MU would have a counter to that, it would be useless to implement it.
Anyway we're not the one deciding of how the game evolves here on the TL forums but it's kind of a ridiculous situation.
You don't want OP things and you don't want things that can be countered, but people still QQ about all sorts of shit.
What's the point in even talking about possible changes made to the game than?
I think this idea is pretty great because as many people explained, it CAN be countered pretty easily by anyone (overlord with speed, observers, scans, etc etc), BUT a smart use of it could also make the user gain a great advantage. Isn't this what Starcraft is all about or do people just want free wins with A move?
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On June 15 2012 20:25 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
Huge NO. This would be so imbalanced.
Think TvP, terran have always air control, always. You can't bring observer there coz there is always raven. As protoss you would never get vision to terran army. HUGE NO. I don't want more imbalanced thing to hots than there at the moment is.
Haha. Because every terran gets a Raven, amirite?
I'm more interested in how the timings would work on this ability. I would guess every Terran would still get siegemode before getting this ability at the techlab, so this ability would be pretty much late-game. I'm not sure who would research this that late into the game. Would it really be that much better (in terms of cost) than getting better upgrades? It seems like this spell would give you (maybe) one or two more rounds of tankfire uncontested, but I might argue that getting an additional attack upgrade would be more beneficial at that point.
I agree with Woizit that it might be a bit confusing to watch for spectators, but in any case, I'm always in favor of a bit more spells in sc2. Neat idea, I like the concept.
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I like the idea of a LOS blocking spell. However, I don't think it will do much for TvT. The reason is scan.
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On June 15 2012 18:16 nekoconeco wrote:At least this idea is attempting to solve the issue in a less direct way. You could try flipping it around though and making it function like darkswarm in scbw. So you would cast it on your own units (you could just make it so the smoke always appears on top of the tank) to prevent them from taking ranged damage. Might be broken but worth mentioning about I guess. At the very least instead of creating a line of los blockers it could spawn a cloud of smoke. Show nested quote +Dark Swarm casts a cloud over an area which prevents both friendly and enemy units (but not structures) under the cloud from taking damage from ranged attacks.
Dark Swarm is already in Sc2, and it's Terran too. It's just called PDD now. (They also have irradiate on the same unit ; )
My first thought was instantly "Didn't Optic Flare suck hard?" but that was because it was single target and everything around the target could easily spot, so it really only stopped detection. This is similar, but actually useful, and LoS blockers already exist in Sc2. The dynamic of how to attack past those bushes is something players already know. Tank lines on Shakuras Plateau comes to mind with the double line of bushes. The concept is not difficult for the viewer to grasp at all. LoS blockers (and High Ground) gets weaker and easier to counteract as the game goes on with more forces for aerial support, flanks, etc., but that is a GOOD thing. It wouldn't be completely useless in the lategame either; it would encourage terran to maintain air control if he is using tanks(which he should have) to be able to use it effectively. My only doubt is that my intuition tells me there might be more offensive applications than defensive ones, but that's just pure speculation since I obviously don't dictate the metagame, the community does.
Very interesting idea. It appears to have a lot of strategical applications, is based around mechanics which already exist are are easy to understand, and notably feels very Terran.
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On June 15 2012 22:23 gedatsu wrote:
I like the idea of a LOS blocking spell. However, I don't think it will do much for TvT. The reason is scan.
You'd have to be insanely fast with the scan. Taking the first hit in an engagement can mean death, especially in close games. Preventative measures like vikings would be better than a reaction like scan.
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So.. this is AOE version of Medic's optical flare? Obviously a bit different but not many Terrans used optical flare and I wonder how it can be used with tanks (seeing how it is more efficient with armies with mobility)
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I would simply LOVE to see this ability in a game... the theory of it sounds really great.. i really like it... i hope blizzard reads this thread and tries to play with it a bit...
Good work!
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On June 15 2012 23:46 mrlie3 wrote:
So.. this is AOE version of Medic's optical flare? Obviously a bit different but not many Terrans used optical flare and I wonder how it can be used with tanks (seeing how it is more efficient with armies with mobility)
Optical Flare also removed the target's ability to detect, if that happened for all units in the smoke screen or w/e that would be cool.
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On June 15 2012 22:21 Emix_Squall wrote:
I don't quite get something.
Sometimes people will claim an idea is imbalanced and explain how it favours one race over an other, therefore the idea won't get much attention.
But here people are basically claiming that because every MU would have a counter to that, it would be useless to implement it.
Anyway we're not the one deciding of how the game evolves here on the TL forums but it's kind of a ridiculous situation.
You don't want OP things and you don't want things that can be countered, but people still QQ about all sorts of shit.
What's the point in even talking about possible changes made to the game than?
I think this idea is pretty great because as many people explained, it CAN be countered pretty easily by anyone (overlord with speed, observers, scans, etc etc), BUT a smart use of it could also make the user gain a great advantage. Isn't this what Starcraft is all about or do people just want free wins with A move?
THANK YOU!!!
Finally someone with some sense.
I cannot believe so many people are saying this shouldn't be introduced simply because there are easy counters to it. Would you guys really wish for something that WASN'T counterable? Yeah sure, scan, observers, overseers, or a viking, or a mutalisk all easily counter this spell. Those same things also counter cloaked banshees... should Blizzard have left them out because they are easily countered??
No doubt there will be people who say that this analogy is poor, but with all due respect forget about your pedanticism for a second and just look at the bigger picture. Of course this spell shouldn't be included if it's imbalanced, but if it only has a minor effect on the game and has many counters, I honestly don't see how that is a good reason to reject the idea at such an early stage. At least give it a chance, because this is the type of thing that has potential to increase the dynamics in a game, further develop and demonstrate players skills and provide for a more interesting spectator sport. Just because there is a counter to something doesn't mean that forcing your enemy to obtain that counter won't have any tangible effect on the match and game dynamics!
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This would be nice because it allows mech to deal with mutas >.< Blizzard is throwing that by the wayside, which makes me sad.
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Would add another tactical dimension to the siege tanks. I endorse this idea.
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get any air unit and u see everything xD
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On June 16 2012 00:32 Otolia wrote:Would add another tactical dimension to the siege tanks. I endorse this idea.
I prefer tanks can load up widow mine and shoot them out though.
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Would definitely make Siege Tanks more interesting again.. After playing HoTs, it seems like all respect to the siegetank TvT and TvP is completely gone.
In TvT, Warhounds dominate a tank-based army.. Those missiles do way more damage than a sieged tanks and have almost the same range T.T. In TvP, Protoss has no respect at all against sieged tanks (Not in WoL either).. Sieged tanks? A-Move into em' with my chargelots and they get 1 shot off each
It's a shame really, siege tanks used to be this feared zoning-unit that completely denied an opponent attacking into the position; The downside being immobillity and vulnurabillity when on the move.
I would trade a nerfed unsieged tank but buffed when sieged to the warhound any day..
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I can dig it. At first I thought it was gonna make early marine/tank pushes ridiculously deadly but for zerg I think overlords negate whatever advantage it gives but for protoss I'm unsure. Depends on if high ground grants vision above the smoke, which I don't know. I like having more space control options, even if tanks are already great at it and I can't see this doing anything else than making tanks more micro intensive and strategic.
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Wait, can you see past it with flying units/scan... siege lines aren't really a problem until the 7-10 min mark, as far as i see most tvt go the point where you can't get past the tank line cuz it simply shells you to pieces its in a late-mid to late game scenario.
When you have air units and scans to "waste".
And if you can't scan past it... well it would make it kinda complicated, how would it work ? Would units simply not be able to shoot past it but see everything ?... that it basically a rework of the defiler spell, which they already said they will implement for zerg.
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I really like this idea a lot, terrans could use something to give tanks more survivable.
was I the only one that thought of Graves' smoke screen from LoL when I first saw this?
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Sounds really cool. Its not like Blizzard never tried fiddling around with line of sight before. Medics had the blind ability that made a unit's vision rendered to one, I don't see how we can't make a new ability around line of sight.
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i prefer the warhound. This line of sight thing is way to gimmicky.
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Interesting idea. I hope it'll be evaluated by someone at Blizzard.
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I think it's a lot more important to decide if something is a 'cool' or 'fun' idea and then work out balancing later.
Anytime you put a new ability/unit into the game it will obviously alter balance, that shouldn't rule it out unless it becomes completely unbalancable or just doesn't work later down the line (as blizzard clearly found with the shredder and replicator).
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On June 15 2012 17:58 Woizit wrote:
Interesting idea, but I see quickly see 2 big problems with it.
1. It's the same functionality as a short-term cloak.
2. It's difficult to represent it visually to the spectator. It either obscures the view of the entire screen, or it affecting the vision of only 1 side can make it confusing to a viewer.
It'll require quite some tweaking, but because of especially point 2, I see it difficult to be put in.
Then explain me how the viewer is confused when a unit goes behind the smokes on the back of the bases on metalopolis, or the high grass on lost temple.
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good god this is a phenomenal idea! balancing costs of the upgrade, cd, etc would be extremely difficult thought. I also think it's a little much giving it to siege-tanks--> as a meching player, my army is basically 70% siege tanks most of the time. Maybe it would work better as an orbital command spell. that way players would have to decide whether or not to spend a mule on it.
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This is fantastic, it's a new idea and it's not gimmicky! Maybe Blizz should start talking to you haha. And not only that, but it allows for very interesting engagements, and new kids of micro. Goddamn what a good idea. Gogo!
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On June 16 2012 02:12 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 17:58 Woizit wrote:
Interesting idea, but I see quickly see 2 big problems with it.
1. It's the same functionality as a short-term cloak.
2. It's difficult to represent it visually to the spectator. It either obscures the view of the entire screen, or it affecting the vision of only 1 side can make it confusing to a viewer.
It'll require quite some tweaking, but because of especially point 2, I see it difficult to be put in. Then explain me how the viewer is confused when a unit goes behind the smokes on the back of the bases on metalopolis, or the high grass on lost temple.
That is a much smaller scale thing and is therefore easier to understand (usually just involving 2 or 3 units). When it's entire armies fighting each other it's hard to tell exactly what they see, and they might have units to the side that can see around it without the spectators noticing that. It becomes a lot more "I wonder if he can see it."
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Interesting idea, but I feel like the concept should be reworked a little if it were to be legitimate.
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On June 16 2012 02:29 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:12 Apolo wrote:On June 15 2012 17:58 Woizit wrote:
Interesting idea, but I see quickly see 2 big problems with it.
1. It's the same functionality as a short-term cloak.
2. It's difficult to represent it visually to the spectator. It either obscures the view of the entire screen, or it affecting the vision of only 1 side can make it confusing to a viewer.
It'll require quite some tweaking, but because of especially point 2, I see it difficult to be put in. Then explain me how the viewer is confused when a unit goes behind the smokes on the back of the bases on metalopolis, or the high grass on lost temple. That is a much smaller scale thing and is therefore easier to understand (usually just involving 2 or 3 units). When it's entire armies fighting each other it's hard to tell exactly what they see, and they might have units to the side that can see around it without the spectators noticing that. It becomes a lot more "I wonder if he can see it."
On the battlefield, the purpose of smoke is to confuse and disorient the enemy. But for Observers or Spectators, everything should be as clear as day.
Spectators or players would not have any trouble wondering if the unit can be seen through the smoke for a very simple reason: that unit will be shot at if it is seen and not shot at if it is not, even though it is already in range of another enemy unit.
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So baiting scans out of T is useless? You guys talk like T has unlimited scans. This is actually a good idea.
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On June 16 2012 03:22 CounterOrder wrote:
So baiting scans out of T is useless? You guys talk like T has unlimited scans. This is actually a good idea.
Of course Terran has unlimeted scans, that's why they have the best scouting of all races and cloaked units are irrelevant against them.
Also each scan automatically reveals the complete opponent tech and does in NO WAY interfere with the MULE, which in itself means terran needs SCVs only for gas and making buildings.
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I think overall, it's kinda useless...on the tank at least.
The only race I could see it being effective in the way you want it is zerg. The main reason is because Terran and Protoss will generally have air units out by the time you get it(T- Medivac and Viking, P- Observer) which completely nullifies it.
I feel it'd be like highground. Powerful in the early game, but almost completely useless later.
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This is an amazing idea. Kudos to you OP. Well thought out and well explained.
And it would add some interesting depth to gameplay.
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The problem with the sugested ability is that I don't see any use for it aside from countering siege tanks in TvT (which can still be countered by radar tower and/or scanner sweep, let alone vikings or other air)
The other uses were wrong and/or flawed. The defensive smoke screen vs protoss would be at worst suidical, and at best be pretty pointless.
Case 1 where terran has sight over the smoke screen, he would need to hold fire for the protoss army to get to the tanks without being alerted that they're there, an ability I don't think siege tanks have.
Case 2 where terran doesn't have sight over the smoke screen — the protoss gains 2 advantages: 1 they won't be taking any hits before they pass the screen, 2. if they decide to retreat, they'll stop getting hit once they cross the smoke screen again (unless they're scanned I guess)
I think smoke screen would be most useful for zerg versus terran, with the only problem still being scanner sweep, radar tower, or medivacs nullifying it rather easily.
I can't really think of any particularly good uses for obscuring abilities like this, even if the concept is good, mostly due to the way the game mechanics work.
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I support this idea, it sounds cool enough to at least give it a try. Did you post this on the bnet forums?
Maybe it could be given to the warhound or some other unit instead instead.
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On June 15 2012 17:51 Kich wrote:
I voted awesome, I enjoyed the presentation of this. Though I don't believe that specific ability should be used, I wasn't going to go so far as to say that the idea was bad. I'm not sure if the tank is the proper unit, since you turn what should essentially be a less micro intensive unit into a more micro intensive unit and it may just allow the tank to do too much; it already has absurd single target dps and massive range / burst / aoe damage.
I feel like the Reaper would be good for this, forcing troop diversity and holding up barracks build times / research in compensation for a rather powerful ability for bio (mech doesn't really care about this I don't think).
I agree, this should be on the reaper!
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I read the response about the air superiority and this is meant to break siege lines. But that means only the person who has air superiority can utilize this ability. You're basically giving a player who already has an advantage an even bigger advantage and makes tank battles even MORE focused on air superiority. So now I'm completely convinced this idea is terrible.
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On June 16 2012 05:48 SolidMoose wrote:
I read the response about the air superiority and this is meant to break siege lines. But that means only the person who has air superiority can utilize this ability. You're basically giving a player who already has an advantage an even bigger advantage and makes tank battles even MORE focused on air superiority. So now I'm completely convinced this idea is terrible.
All we need is a good, affordable, massable and long ranged GtA unit *stares at warhound*.
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I think this is a great idea. Limited use (1 per siege tank?), possible upgrade necessary, and most importantly:
Delayed smoke output.
Meaning... The smoke screen takes several seconds to deploy fully. Gives enough time for both players to assess the situation!
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This doesn't really change a whole lot in the TvT matchup since terrans use vikings or medivacs to enable long range tank firing, so that kinda negates the whole point of smoke screens unless you have no air units. Against Zerg it's common to have terrans behind some kinda of fortified wall (bunkers, supply depots, or mabye a couple PFs), and smoke screens will only add to that. Against protoss all they would need to do is send their observer ahead of the army through the smoke screen and that would tell the protoss player if it's safe or not.
The only scenario where I can see this being useful is ZvT where terran is out in the open
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This do really look good but..
its kinda similar how we dont really use dt's or ghost cloak in combat. well we do use ghost cloak, but only beacuse we dont have anything left to emp and cloaking might save them if toss didnt have an obs with his army.
I mean, medivacs, scans, obs, collosus, overseers, mutalisk, corrupters, viking these are already a steady part of a composition.
so if this is supposed to be a mid game feature, will it really be worth the effort/resource spent on it. more importantly a player will have to create situaitons where los blockers might be useful, instead of creating situations where multiaple drops will be useful, or helion run by, or flanks.
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I like the idea but i don't think terran should have it. Rather zerg or protoss, or coming from the raven or ghost, not tanks... Tanks are too strong if anything at holding positions already.
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I don't know.
How about giving this ability to warhound. Then warhound can still fulfill the original role of anti-tank in TvT. But people will still use it against zerg because of the ability can help your siege tank as well in TvZ.
And David Kim in one recent interview did mention that they are still experimenting with the warhound's ability. Blizzard should definitely consider this ability to warhound.
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Should be a reaper ability and would really help with all MU.
Since blizzard won't buff Terran maneuverability, some subversive mechanics would be fantastic!
Widow mines are simply the start of deterrents, we need more things like this.
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Great, I love it (and I'm not even terran). It just seems cool as gameplay applications, looks; and fits the lore too. Of course, the smokes from tanks have to have a player color attached, and not really block vision for that player, only for enemies.
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This is very good - is there any way to make this go to Blizzard ?
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On June 16 2012 06:36 mell0w wrote:
Should be a reaper ability and would really help with all MU.
Since blizzard won't buff Terran maneuverability, some subversive mechanics would be fantastic!
Widow mines are simply the start of deterrents, we need more things like this.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Obviously, we all want more mech usage, but I think the best way to do this is not by buffing mech, but by adding bio units that can support mech well. I think the marauder could be scratched all-together, and the reaper could be given something like this ability, or a repair. That would leave marines as great support for an army with a mech backbone, while making pure bio (the most boring comp ever) a little less viable.
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The way that the skill is used is weird. Casting a spell in a line, instead of a circle is too hard for lower level players, so my guess is that Blizzard wouldn't use it this way due to their policy "Easy to learn, hard to master". Maybe make it a ball, which using your arguments, is closer to reality, and also make charges in stead of cd.
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On June 16 2012 07:31 TiTanIum_ wrote:
The way that the skill is used is weird. Casting a spell in a line, instead of a circle is too hard for lower level players, so my guess is that Blizzard wouldn't use it this way due to their policy "Easy to learn, hard to master". Maybe make it a ball, which using your arguments, is closer to reality, and also make charges in stead of cd.
And that's why catering to casuals hinders actual game play. People can preach dynamic demographics and good business sense all they want, I simply hate limiting abilities because some people find them difficult. World aint fair, and if it is, we call that socialism.
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On June 16 2012 07:19 ClysmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 06:36 mell0w wrote:
Should be a reaper ability and would really help with all MU.
Since blizzard won't buff Terran maneuverability, some subversive mechanics would be fantastic!
Widow mines are simply the start of deterrents, we need more things like this. This is exactly what I was thinking. Obviously, we all want more mech usage, but I think the best way to do this is not by buffing mech, but by adding bio units that can support mech well. I think the marauder could be scratched all-together, and the reaper could be given something like this ability, or a repair. That would leave marines as great support for an army with a mech backbone, while making pure bio (the most boring comp ever) a little less viable.
This ability on the reaper might be hard to balance early game as reapers can already manipulate LOS by hopping up and down cliffs. Essentially the Smoke Screen is a way to generate a "cliff" or high ground on flat terrain. If reapers also have this ability, then they would be able to put a cliff on a cliff. XD
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I really really like this.
1. It's simple
2. It's what Day9 would call a frisbee rather than a baseball (aka its use increases proportionally with the skill of the player using it)
3. I'd enjoy playing with it
Hopefully blizzard sees this and has a serious think about it.
Also, hopefully this inspires more people to put forward their own design ideas, instead of constantly bitching about how Blizzard is doing everything wrong (or "it isn't as good as BW") without any suggestions of their own.
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On June 16 2012 19:49 NDDseer wrote:
I really really like this.
1. It's simple
2. It's what Day9 would call a frisbee rather than a baseball (aka its use increases proportionally with the skill of the player using it)
3. I'd enjoy playing with it
Hopefully blizzard sees this and has a serious think about it.
Also, hopefully this inspires more people to put forward their own design ideas, instead of constantly bitching about how Blizzard is doing everything wrong (or "it isn't as good as BW") without any suggestions of their own.
Thanks! Yea this ability is like a frisbee. Good players can place the Screens as fast as forcefields to deter an enemy army from advancing. Unlike forcefields, they don't block pathing, but do create fog of war that cannot be broken unless going on the other side. For example, Terrans can make a smoke wall to protect tanks from say a zergling army. And depending on how well the players place these walls, they may or may not lose their army. In a sense, the power of this ability is scalable much like forcefields, but it doesn't hinder micro like forcefields.
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People are crying enough about tanks already, and this is only going to add fuel to the fire. Do you want Protoss to have absolutely no chance of holding off a 1-1-1 against a competent Terran? It's an interesting idea and the game could use more strategic options like this, but I don't see how this specific ability would ever be balanced.
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Absolutely great idea. This would make tanks even more awesome.. I think this is the best Idea for any Terran unit i've heard of since the BCs are getting warp drives..
I really hope you posted that idea and thread to bnet, DB needs to read that.
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I think it would have to an upgrade on either the ebay, tech lab, or armory (and should cost some significant amount of gas, maybe 100?). I think mid and late game, the ability is fine, but early game it can be pretty annoying.
Basically it makes the 1-1-1 that much stronger if it were already built in. Observers can be shut down with a raven. This means going chargelots is much less effective in defending (Colossi and phoenixes still work). Basically it limits the options for defense and that's not cool. By forcing an upgrade, it would cost additional time and money, so the protoss can make additional units (and the terran has less units), so it could free up the usage of chargelots again.
In tvt, it's already really hard to hold against a siege tank push if you go 1rax fe. With a smoke screen, it would severely limit your opportunities to try and stim to clean it up, since you wouldn't be able to see when a good moment to go unless you scan constantly or constantly sacrifice units. Basically, that means you have to wait for medivacs to pop. Most people do this anyway, but the difference is the threat. The siege tank pusher has to be really careful with his tank positioning and leap frogging because if he messes up, the defending player can go and kill it before medivacs. With smoke, the tank player has no need to worry. Thus, with the additional time and cost, not only will there be more units out, it would give more time for medivacs to pop.
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This idea sounds awesome. It would make tank play quite interesting to watch. Imagine seeing a Terran player launch a smoke screen just outside their base, they'd be freaking out wondering if there is an army there, or whether he is faking them out. This would be cool in TvZ, due to the drones or units from larva mechanic.
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The concept sounds great. Post it on the blizzard forums asap!
It's useless to argue about whether this is OP or not, especially if it's implemented in HotS. No on can ever claim to know how HotS will turn out. Maybe we won't ever see marine tank vs Zerg again?
The idea is good and that's what counts. First get the design straight, then do the balancing.
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On June 15 2012 20:16 bhfberserk wrote:
I think if this ability is coming out from the Warhound, instead of the "auto-target to mech" thing. From the missile launcher on top of the warhound, you can launch smoke screen would be cool.
But then again, this overlaps with the Viper's blinding cloud (if it is still in the game).
The concept is like cloak, Dark swarm.
Vision thing can be counter by a scan or flying units. So this is definitely a viable and balance ablity.
In the pictures you have showed, it is confusing because you use the smoke wall mechanic. I was confused at first seeing each players POV. But it could just be changed into a cloud thing.
+1
If it was a warhound ability, it'd be more cool and unique as well as making the warhound less of an A move unit.
You could cast it from one side when you flank a siege line. This would make the flank effective enough vs large clumps of tanks, but also be possible to negate.
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On June 17 2012 06:34 decaf wrote:
The concept sounds great. Post it on the blizzard forums asap!
It's useless to argue about whether this is OP or not, especially if it's implemented in HotS. No on can ever claim to know how HotS will turn out. Maybe we won't ever see marine tank vs Zerg again?
The idea is good and that's what counts. First get the design straight, then do the balancing.
Thank. I just posted it on Blizzard forums, but I really don't know if the Devs will actually read it. Plus the functionality of the Blizzard forums is very rudimentary, so I thought the idea would get more exposure if it were here, on TL.
In reply to a few posts:
-Yea this ability would work on Warhound as well, but I decided that it would be best on the tank because Warhound can now be freed to take back its original anti-air role as mini-thor/goliath, and the Thor can be removed due to its unpopularity.
-This ability isn't really that good early game with the 1-1-1 build (due to low # of tanks) because just like forcefields, the more you have the more powerful it becomes. Plus, it only lasts a short duration, so the Protoss can just back up until the Smoke is gone, then reengage.
@Everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback, keep them coming. I really wish I knew how to use the Galaxy editor properly so we can actually test this in a game.
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This is a really neat idea.
That said, it does suffer from the same condition as force fields where it is semi-uncontestable in many situations. I'm not sure if making the smoke emitter targettable behind its smoke lines would add some play to it.
Thematically it is a bit weird for Terran, so I feel like
What I like most about is, is the increased relevancy it brings to flying units in TvT, where there has been a slow reduction in viking wars since people realized just making more bio/tank and splitting properly was more effective as a siege break opposed to the slow crawl positioning wars of early release.
Also drop me a PM, I might be able to help with the mapping dependent on scheduling, if you still need someone.
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On June 17 2012 06:09 jeeneeus wrote:
I think it would have to an upgrade on either the ebay, tech lab, or armory (and should cost some significant amount of gas, maybe 100?). I think mid and late game, the ability is fine, but early game it can be pretty annoying.
Basically it makes the 1-1-1 that much stronger if it were already built in. Observers can be shut down with a raven. This means going chargelots is much less effective in defending (Colossi and phoenixes still work). Basically it limits the options for defense and that's not cool. By forcing an upgrade, it would cost additional time and money, so the protoss can make additional units (and the terran has less units), so it could free up the usage of chargelots again.
In tvt, it's already really hard to hold against a siege tank push if you go 1rax fe. With a smoke screen, it would severely limit your opportunities to try and stim to clean it up, since you wouldn't be able to see when a good moment to go unless you scan constantly or constantly sacrifice units. Basically, that means you have to wait for medivacs to pop. Most people do this anyway, but the difference is the threat. The siege tank pusher has to be really careful with his tank positioning and leap frogging because if he messes up, the defending player can go and kill it before medivacs. With smoke, the tank player has no need to worry. Thus, with the additional time and cost, not only will there be more units out, it would give more time for medivacs to pop.
You (and a lot of others in this thread) forget about the stats of the ability. It's important to balance the ability around those situations you describe.
These smoke grenades could have a short durability and a long cooldown, they are not meant to be permanent or to be there too long, so you can't just always be save against everything.
Using the example of a siege push against 1rax-fe, you have to use the smoke screens directly after the other player attacks with his bio because you only have a low siege tank count and can't constantly keep smoke up. So when you throw down those emergency smoke screens the other player needs to throw down a scan as fast as possible.
(similar situation with the 1-1-1 against protoss)
In my opinion this ability could make the game more dynamic and fun, which means more interesting to watch and to play. I love the idea.
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I dont usually like "suggestion" threads like this, but that is a damn cool idea!
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I think this is why there are strategically placed line of sight blockers and high ground bases. A smokescreen ability seems pretty cool, but I fail to see how it helps you if you can't see over the smoke, and if you can see over the smoke, then you must have something like air control to push into the tanks anyway. Basically, what's the point of the smoke when it's the ability to see over the smoke and keep the air control that actually allows you to push with your tanks (I'm talking about vikings, denying vision with said vikings and using air control to maintain the vision advantage)? Also, if you're dropping smoke in some weird place, your opponent would probably think twice about nonchalantly walking through it, no?
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I like it, but I am not sure if the tank is the right unit for this ability. Could also be a nice ability for the ghost.
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On June 17 2012 07:20 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I think this is why there are strategically placed line of sight blockers and high ground bases. A smokescreen ability seems pretty cool, but I fail to see how it helps you if you can't see over the smoke, and if you can see over the smoke, then you must have something like air control to push into the tanks anyway. Basically, what's the point of the smoke when it's the ability to see over the smoke and keep the air control that actually allows you to push with your tanks (I'm talking about vikings, denying vision with said vikings and using air control to maintain the vision advantage)? Also, if you're dropping smoke in some weird place, your opponent would probably think twice about nonchalantly walking through it, no?
Usually in TvT, one Terran will have to unsiege and attack into a siege line, that means taking a lot of Tank shelling before getting close enough to siege up your own tanks and attack. Imagine if you can fire a few Smoke Shells ahead, block the enemy's vision and get close enough to siege up your own tanks without taking any damage. How would that change the tide of the battle? This would allow a smaller army to engage a bigger one.
Of course, there would also be scenarios of stalemates, in which both Terrans will launch their smokes at each other's tank lines in offense and defence. This is when it gets interesting. Do you save your scans, so you can attack into the smoke? Or do you try and gain air superiority.
Regarding your last point, yes Smoke can be used to "fake out" your opponent. Deter them from coming at you.
I want to stress again that in practice, the spell won't give you an advantage for its entire duration because pro players will probably regain vision by then. What it does do is give you a few extra precious seconds for you to move, and in high level play, that small amount of time is all you need.
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On June 17 2012 06:44 CanadianSCgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:34 decaf wrote:
The concept sounds great. Post it on the blizzard forums asap!
It's useless to argue about whether this is OP or not, especially if it's implemented in HotS. No on can ever claim to know how HotS will turn out. Maybe we won't ever see marine tank vs Zerg again?
The idea is good and that's what counts. First get the design straight, then do the balancing. Thank. I just posted it on Blizzard forums, but I really don't know if the Devs will actually read it. Plus the functionality of the Blizzard forums is very rudimentary, so I thought the idea would get more exposure if it were here, on TL.
Maybe you should put a link to it in the OP then supportive TL'rs can get a discussion going over there and give it a better chance of being seen.
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On June 17 2012 08:05 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:44 CanadianSCgamer wrote:On June 17 2012 06:34 decaf wrote:
The concept sounds great. Post it on the blizzard forums asap!
It's useless to argue about whether this is OP or not, especially if it's implemented in HotS. No on can ever claim to know how HotS will turn out. Maybe we won't ever see marine tank vs Zerg again?
The idea is good and that's what counts. First get the design straight, then do the balancing. Thank. I just posted it on Blizzard forums, but I really don't know if the Devs will actually read it. Plus the functionality of the Blizzard forums is very rudimentary, so I thought the idea would get more exposure if it were here, on TL. Maybe you should put a link to it in the OP then supportive TL'rs can get a discussion going over there and give it a better chance of being seen.
It's done.
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You have my support sir! (As a Terran :D) But really though, it's actually a really unique idea, I think it will help with the diversity of the game quite a bit in the hands of a skilled player, and for anyone else that likes it, go to the thread that he linked on Battle.net and support it!
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As it's a projectile, is it stopped by Point Defence Drone?
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On June 17 2012 08:40 Yonnua wrote:
As it's a projectile, is it stopped by Point Defence Drone?
Possibly. That depends on testing on whether it would be more balanced that way. As it currently stands, no, because it would work like the Ghost's EMP round. PDDs don't block EMP projectiles, but you can see them and they have travel time.
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Wow that's a really good idea. And for it to be called Smoke Screen, that's so badass that it could only belong to Terran. I wonder if Blizz looks at these unit suggestions because this one in particular is pretty cool. Would of course need to be really examined for uses, because as it looks right now I'm having a hard time imagining it being THAT useful.
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Love this idea, at first I thought it seemed too comand and conquer -esk but you brought some decent points and I can see this being useful [to some extent]. Only one thing though, I think it should be a raven ability. It's flying to it'll bring easier to deploy and still can be used in a bio-only comp. I'd say if we do get widow mines we get rid of seeker missile since they overlap and replace it with this. BANG just did what blizzard does but in 5 minutes and I did a better job. Oi. Blizzard I have great credentials. hit me up with that PM
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On June 17 2012 08:45 Nagano wrote:
Wow that's a really good idea. And for it to be called Smoke Screen, that's so badass that it could only belong to Terran. I wonder if Blizz looks at these unit suggestions because this one in particular is pretty cool. Would of course need to be really examined for uses, because as it looks right now I'm having a hard time imagining it being THAT useful.
Hell yeah it is badass. The Siege Tank is artillery and Smoke Screen Shells are what artillery units in real life have to help friendly units assault an objective or cover their retreat. If you watch the first youtube video (Russian Artillery Smoke) I linked in the OP, that is how awesome it should look when the artwork is finalized. Terrans = Future Humans, so it would make sense that they get this very human-y invention.
Tanks are used extensively in 2 of 3 match ups right now, and there are plenty of uses in TvT and TvZ. TvT I've already explained: Smoke helps you get close to enemy siege lines without taking damage.
In TvZ, imagine if you're (Terran) out in the open on the edge of the creep and you've sieged up your tanks in anticipation of an all out zerg assault. As you see the Zerg army swarm at you on the minimap, you instantly POP a wall of smoke between your army and the Zerg army. Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements.
In addition, these Smoke Screens can be used to mess with enemy AI as you kite back and forth between the smoke layers. Imagine kiting Zealots back and forth behind many layers of smoke set up by your tanks, while the Zealots constantly lose sight of your units and therefore stop attacking for the extra few seconds so that you can get more shots out.
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Reminds me of demon's forest in Proleague, and we can all see how that map turned out.
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On June 17 2012 09:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote:
Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements.
I'm sorry but isn't this beneficial to the zerg since they're mostly composed of short ranged-melee units so they can get close to the longer range terran army (their strength) and just overrun them?
when retreating outside the LOS with zerglings say, you'd save yourself a few tank shots since they cant see past the LOS or is it only a one way thing? isn't this basically blinding cloud? also this would be confusing as hell as a spectator sport trying to figure what's the happening.
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On June 17 2012 09:16 AsymptoticClimax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 09:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote:
Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements. I'm sorry but isn't this beneficial to the zerg since they're mostly composed of short ranged-melee units so they can get close to the longer range terran army (their strength) and just overrun them? when retreating outside the LOS with zerglings say, you'd save yourself a few tank shots since they cant see past the LOS or is it only a one way thing? isn't this basically blinding cloud? also this would be confusing as hell as a spectator sport trying to figure what's the happening.
Yea it is beneficial to the Zerg if you dont' scan to gain vision or have a Medivac fly overhead for vision. But a part of Zerg's control when attacking is knowing where to aim the banelings, if they can't see what's behind the smoke and where the MMM is, then they can't move appropriately. For all the Zerg knows, the Terran could have moved the bio ball behind the tanks or picked them up in the Medivacs. It is all about the mind game of hiding information and surprising your opponent.
It isn't exactly blinding cloud because this ability doesn't directly affect the units. It is more like a "cliff/high ground" generator. By denying vision, you are basically creating a sort of high ground advantage on even ground. This sort thing is dynamic rather than static, so the spell can indeed back fire if used incorrectly. That's what makes it fun.
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On June 15 2012 18:12 lavit2099 wrote:
So basically rework the Viper spell, add a dash of Oracle mass cloak-field and give it to Terran in a bigger, better way. Can't say I'm really all that impressed with the idea.
Read as "Terran imba"
All jokes aside, I like the idea. It just feels like that scrappy, Terran way of fighting and eeking out every little advantage possible.
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On June 17 2012 06:44 CanadianSCgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:34 decaf wrote:
The concept sounds great. Post it on the blizzard forums asap!
It's useless to argue about whether this is OP or not, especially if it's implemented in HotS. No on can ever claim to know how HotS will turn out. Maybe we won't ever see marine tank vs Zerg again?
The idea is good and that's what counts. First get the design straight, then do the balancing. Thank. I just posted it on Blizzard forums, but I really don't know if the Devs will actually read it. Plus the functionality of the Blizzard forums is very rudimentary, so I thought the idea would get more exposure if it were here, on TL. In reply to a few posts: -Yea this ability would work on Warhound as well, but I decided that it would be best on the tank because Warhound can now be freed to take back its original anti-air role as mini-thor/goliath, and the Thor can be removed due to its unpopularity. -This ability isn't really that good early game with the 1-1-1 build (due to low # of tanks) because just like forcefields, the more you have the more powerful it becomes. Plus, it only lasts a short duration, so the Protoss can just back up until the Smoke is gone, then reengage. @Everyone, Thanks for all the feedback, keep them coming. I really wish I knew how to use the Galaxy editor properly so we can actually test this in a game.
Don't you think that the ability should go with the anti air warhound? So it can be used vs mech aswell and be more viable? and it sort of fits?
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On June 17 2012 09:16 AsymptoticClimax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 09:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote:
Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements. I'm sorry but isn't this beneficial to the zerg since they're mostly composed of short ranged-melee units so they can get close to the longer range terran army (their strength) and just overrun them? when retreating outside the LOS with zerglings say, you'd save yourself a few tank shots since they cant see past the LOS or is it only a one way thing? isn't this basically blinding cloud? also this would be confusing as hell as a spectator sport trying to figure what's the happening.
I'm pretty sure it was meant as neither can see past the sight blocker. As an intended Terran spell, it isn't supposed to benefit the Zerg, as I understood it.
I don't think it will be confusing to the spectator at all. They know that neither can see past the smokescreen without a spotter in the air. Assume your audience is intelligent =]
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On June 17 2012 09:32 CanadianSCgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 09:16 AsymptoticClimax wrote:On June 17 2012 09:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote:
Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements. I'm sorry but isn't this beneficial to the zerg since they're mostly composed of short ranged-melee units so they can get close to the longer range terran army (their strength) and just overrun them? when retreating outside the LOS with zerglings say, you'd save yourself a few tank shots since they cant see past the LOS or is it only a one way thing? isn't this basically blinding cloud? also this would be confusing as hell as a spectator sport trying to figure what's the happening. It isn't exactly blinding cloud because this ability doesn't directly affect the units. It is more like a "cliff/high ground" generator. By denying vision, you are basically creating a sort of high ground advantage on even ground. This sort thing is dynamic rather than static, so the spell can indeed back fire if used incorrectly. That's what makes it fun.
God this sounds like your describing a terran version of the forcefield lol. Idk as a zerg this just sounds like it would just become fustrating to me. also, I like the idea of the TvT aspect of LOS but it shouldn't be an ability that affects all matchups but rather a map feature IMO
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This seems like a cool idea, and something that I hope Blizzard might look at for LotV. Not necessarily as an ability for the siege tank, but just as a potential ability for some unit, which could open up some interesting avenues in the metagame.
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Ahh, cool idea! I've never considered a LOS blocker as an ability before. I think that could definitely be incorporated well into the game, but I don't know if I like the ability the way it is now exactly.
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On June 17 2012 09:39 Holytornados wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 09:16 AsymptoticClimax wrote:On June 17 2012 09:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote:
Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements. I'm sorry but isn't this beneficial to the zerg since they're mostly composed of short ranged-melee units so they can get close to the longer range terran army (their strength) and just overrun them? when retreating outside the LOS with zerglings say, you'd save yourself a few tank shots since they cant see past the LOS or is it only a one way thing? isn't this basically blinding cloud? also this would be confusing as hell as a spectator sport trying to figure what's the happening. I'm pretty sure it was meant as neither can see past the sight blocker. As an intended Terran spell, it isn't supposed to benefit the Zerg, as I understood it. I don't think it will be confusing to the spectator at all. They know that neither can see past the smokescreen without a spotter in the air. Assume your audience is intelligent =]
Right..try explaining blinding cloud and smoke screen to someone completely new to starcraft and get them to know the difference so they can appreciate the game like we do, also they achieve similar goals so I can't see this getting into the game tbh even if the devs acknowledge it. Have fun!
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On June 17 2012 09:48 AsymptoticClimax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 09:39 Holytornados wrote:On June 17 2012 09:16 AsymptoticClimax wrote:On June 17 2012 09:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote:
Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements. I'm sorry but isn't this beneficial to the zerg since they're mostly composed of short ranged-melee units so they can get close to the longer range terran army (their strength) and just overrun them? when retreating outside the LOS with zerglings say, you'd save yourself a few tank shots since they cant see past the LOS or is it only a one way thing? isn't this basically blinding cloud? also this would be confusing as hell as a spectator sport trying to figure what's the happening. I'm pretty sure it was meant as neither can see past the sight blocker. As an intended Terran spell, it isn't supposed to benefit the Zerg, as I understood it. I don't think it will be confusing to the spectator at all. They know that neither can see past the smokescreen without a spotter in the air. Assume your audience is intelligent =] Right..try explaining blinding cloud and smoke screen to someone completely new to starcraft and get them to know the difference so they can appreciate the game like we do, also they achieve similar goals so I can't see this getting into the game tbh even if the devs acknowledge it. Have fun!
Blinding cloud - The name is pretty self-explanatory. I could explain that even to a little kid. What does it do? Basically it is a cloud of something that blinds things. Done
Smoke Screen - As I've said before, smoke screens are not new to human technology at all. It's been in use since World War I. Gamers know what they are because most people have played FPSs, such as Counter Strike or COD, that have smoke grenades and they know how useful smoke grenades are for creating confusion and attacking a position. Once again, I can explain it to a little kid. What is a Smoke Screen? It is a heavy, thick wall of smoke that is impossible to see past.
However, you are right that these two spells achieve similar goals in that they are not spells that cause direct damage like fungal or storm. Instead, these spells force players to strive for better positioning, which makes for very interesting gameplay for players and spectators. Unlike blinding cloud or dark swarm, the Smoke Screen ability doesn't mess with unit attack range or damage. What it does is that it reduces the vision of the unit. Vision is a pretty fundamental mechanic in Starcraft in the form of fog of war, so it is not hard to understand at all. While units in BC and DS can be seen, units in SS cannot be seen, unless revealed through vision. Do you understand the difference now?
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Thank god someone mentioned this. It's one of the few things that Blizzard hasn't quite played around with yet and has some of the most potential to produce interesting strategies.
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On June 17 2012 10:27 CanadianSCgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 09:48 AsymptoticClimax wrote:On June 17 2012 09:39 Holytornados wrote:On June 17 2012 09:16 AsymptoticClimax wrote:On June 17 2012 09:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote:
Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements. I'm sorry but isn't this beneficial to the zerg since they're mostly composed of short ranged-melee units so they can get close to the longer range terran army (their strength) and just overrun them? when retreating outside the LOS with zerglings say, you'd save yourself a few tank shots since they cant see past the LOS or is it only a one way thing? isn't this basically blinding cloud? also this would be confusing as hell as a spectator sport trying to figure what's the happening. I'm pretty sure it was meant as neither can see past the sight blocker. As an intended Terran spell, it isn't supposed to benefit the Zerg, as I understood it. I don't think it will be confusing to the spectator at all. They know that neither can see past the smokescreen without a spotter in the air. Assume your audience is intelligent =] Right..try explaining blinding cloud and smoke screen to someone completely new to starcraft and get them to know the difference so they can appreciate the game like we do, also they achieve similar goals so I can't see this getting into the game tbh even if the devs acknowledge it. Have fun! Blinding cloud - The name is pretty self-explanatory. I could explain that even to a little kid. What does it do? Basically it is a cloud of something that blinds things. Done Smoke Screen - As I've said before, smoke screens are not new to human technology at all. It's been in use since World War I. Gamers know what they are because most people have played FPSs, such as Counter Strike or COD, that have smoke grenades and they know how useful smoke grenades are for creating confusion and attacking a position. Once again, I can explain it to a little kid. What is a Smoke Screen? It is a heavy, thick wall of smoke that is impossible to see past. However, you are right that these two spells achieve similar goals in that they are not spells that cause direct damage like fungal or storm. Instead, these spells force players to strive for better positioning, which makes for very interesting gameplay for players and spectators. Unlike blinding cloud or dark swarm, the Smoke Screen ability doesn't mess with unit attack range or damage. What it does is that it reduces the vision of the unit. Vision is a pretty fundamental mechanic in Starcraft in the form of fog of war, so it is not hard to understand at all. While units in BC and DS can be seen, units in SS cannot be seen, unless revealed through vision. Do you understand the difference now?
you're making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. I was just pointing out that I think it's gimmicky and wouldn't achieve anything that terrans needs right now. Terran do not need smoke screen with their siege seige tanks and whatnot. cool concept? sure! but not needed. now you're going on about how important sight is in starcraft or something and tbh got bored and at that point it's a fucking waste of text. the truth is role of unit > 'coolness' factor in starcraft 2 we've seen this happen with the carrier so no matter how 'cool' a concept is it won't cut it unless it's needed. and the truth is. it's not. or am I missing something? pretty sure it's not needed.
But hey, if were coming up with abilities that are questionable on whether we actually need it fuck it even I could come up with something better.
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On June 17 2012 10:54 AsymptoticClimax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 10:27 CanadianSCgamer wrote:On June 17 2012 09:48 AsymptoticClimax wrote:On June 17 2012 09:39 Holytornados wrote:On June 17 2012 09:16 AsymptoticClimax wrote:On June 17 2012 09:08 CanadianSCgamer wrote:
Now the Zerg commander must make a split second decision to either pull back or continue the assault. If he keeps attacking, he will be going in blind, not knowing what is behind the smoke until he reaches you. If he pulls back, he just gave away the element of surprise and allowed you to either retreat or time to gather additional reinforcements. I'm sorry but isn't this beneficial to the zerg since they're mostly composed of short ranged-melee units so they can get close to the longer range terran army (their strength) and just overrun them? when retreating outside the LOS with zerglings say, you'd save yourself a few tank shots since they cant see past the LOS or is it only a one way thing? isn't this basically blinding cloud? also this would be confusing as hell as a spectator sport trying to figure what's the happening. I'm pretty sure it was meant as neither can see past the sight blocker. As an intended Terran spell, it isn't supposed to benefit the Zerg, as I understood it. I don't think it will be confusing to the spectator at all. They know that neither can see past the smokescreen without a spotter in the air. Assume your audience is intelligent =] Right..try explaining blinding cloud and smoke screen to someone completely new to starcraft and get them to know the difference so they can appreciate the game like we do, also they achieve similar goals so I can't see this getting into the game tbh even if the devs acknowledge it. Have fun! Blinding cloud - The name is pretty self-explanatory. I could explain that even to a little kid. What does it do? Basically it is a cloud of something that blinds things. Done Smoke Screen - As I've said before, smoke screens are not new to human technology at all. It's been in use since World War I. Gamers know what they are because most people have played FPSs, such as Counter Strike or COD, that have smoke grenades and they know how useful smoke grenades are for creating confusion and attacking a position. Once again, I can explain it to a little kid. What is a Smoke Screen? It is a heavy, thick wall of smoke that is impossible to see past. However, you are right that these two spells achieve similar goals in that they are not spells that cause direct damage like fungal or storm. Instead, these spells force players to strive for better positioning, which makes for very interesting gameplay for players and spectators. Unlike blinding cloud or dark swarm, the Smoke Screen ability doesn't mess with unit attack range or damage. What it does is that it reduces the vision of the unit. Vision is a pretty fundamental mechanic in Starcraft in the form of fog of war, so it is not hard to understand at all. While units in BC and DS can be seen, units in SS cannot be seen, unless revealed through vision. Do you understand the difference now? you're making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. I was just pointing out that I think it's gimmicky and wouldn't achieve anything that terrans needs right now. Terran do not need smoke screen with their siege seige tanks and whatnot. cool concept? sure! but not needed. now you're going on about how important sight is in starcraft or something and tbh got bored and at that point it's a fucking waste of text. the truth is role of unit > 'coolness' factor in starcraft 2 we've seen this happen with the carrier so no matter how 'cool' a concept is it won't cut it unless it's needed. and the truth is. it's not. or am I missing something? pretty sure it's not needed. But hey, if were coming up with abilities that are questionable on whether we actually need it fuck it even I could come up with something better.
The main purpose of this spell is to break Siege Lines in TvT, which is something Blizzard is trying very hard to do. Their method is direct, giving the Warhound a anti-mechanical missile pack. Some people have negative feelings towards this kind of 1-A hard counter unit, so I'm suggesting a more indirect method, allowing armies to get close to a Siege Line without taking bad damage. I would say that it is a pretty big deal since that's what Blizzard is focusing on for the entire Terran race for HOTS.
All the other things such as defender's advantage and setting up traps, that in your opinion may be "gimmicky," but that's icing on the cake.
Since you get bored easily here's a TLDR:
- Purpose: Breaks TvT stalemates
But do please feel free to entertain the rest of us with your better ideas.
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this would be brillant to punish infestor-ling only players, force them to get some air units or risk walking into something reaaall ugly
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Feel like this gives Terran too much of an advantage seeing as they have Scan whereas other races would get their obs/ovs/whatever sniped by AA hiding behind the smoke screen...and also seems like giving a strong fighting unit an extra spell as opposed to Viper which is a spellcaster foremost is kinda weird...
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Would be cool for Terran to have, but seems like it can easily be avoided. How useful would it really be against a bunch of melee units running at you? There are usually observers nearby that would negate this. So assuming it would be used against zerg, it still doesn't seem effective since the entire zerg army comes charging in and wouldn't lose any dps anyway.
Does feel terrany though.
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Yeah, I really think they should change the warhound back to an anti air goliath and give him this smoke screen ability for tvt, to help with flanks... Imagine a smokescreen going down on the right side of a siege line and then a buch of marauder run in and next second boom boom boom they're killing the tanks, because the other terran didnt scan or have vision there.
Very fun and interesting mechanic, but I don't think the key is for tanks to be MORE vital in tvt.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I think this idea is worth a shot; hopefully someone tries it out in the editor.
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Update!
Spell In Action! (With pictures!)
Thanks to a very talented Mr. Outcast01 at SC2Mapster Forums, the spell is now a Work in Progress!
+ Show Spoiler +DO NOT FEAR those Siege Lines any longer for you have a new ability in your command card. Smoke OUT! (Note: Now in range of enemy tanks, but not getting shot ) Smoke out again, leap frog to get even closer. Knock Knock Siege Line. (Note: Zero damage taken so far). Siege Line No More. *Note friendly Raven giving vision this whole time, stressing the importance of vision, whereas red didn't have any.
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Based on your pictures, this wouldn't change anything: that air dominance in TvT has the stronger siege line vision.
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On June 18 2012 03:26 BraneSC2 wrote:
Based on your pictures, this wouldn't change anything: that air dominance in TvT has the stronger siege line vision.
That's where the new Warhound would come in. Instead of a anti-siege unit, it would return to it's AA role. Or one can just attack from a direction where air units are not present. I can't stress enough that this spell is about taking advantage of the element of surprise. In those pictures, even though red didn't have any air units, he could have easily just scanned to gain vision, but in a real game situation, if the green terran is fast enough, he would have destroyed half of red's units before red noticed anything.
Right now, this spell is in alpha. If it really turns out that it is not that good, then it will be buffed. Perhaps make it so even air units can't see through it, but I won't rush to that yet as it is very good so far.
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I think the air dominance issue just becomes solved by the new Warhound assuming an AA role. I think that'd be PERFECT. AA ground instead of a siege breaker.
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On June 15 2012 21:02 Imperium11 wrote:
This is the best theorycrafting thread I've seen in a long time.
isn't theorycrafting frowned upon here? That being said, the ability seems very Terran-y (and teh warhound is teh sux so i agree it should replace the thor and return to aa abilities)
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On June 18 2012 05:38 ectonym wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 21:02 Imperium11 wrote:
This is the best theorycrafting thread I've seen in a long time.
isn't theorycrafting frowned upon here? That being said, the ability seems very Terran-y (and teh warhound is teh sux so i agree it should replace the thor and return to aa abilities)
It is not theorycrafting if you have a test map in the making to test out the ability. 
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Yes this idea has come up many times before, however the ability fits better on an early unit like Reaper, Ghost or Medic (if Medivac is removed).
By the time Tanks come out, scans are plentiful and air units are very close to joining the battlefield.
Also I doubt they would allow unusual shapes if they ability was added, almost certainly it would be a square blocker always.
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Wouldn't do much good. Basically this sight war is already going on as tanks shoot further then they can see so the player air dominance can basically push the one without.
In practice however many things would void the use of this completely. Your opponent could have air to look over the smoke screen, he could scan or he could just have his tanks at the watchtower. Vision manipulaiton is a bad thing to rely on anyway because it's very gimmicky. Suppose you throw down a smoke screen and move in. If the oppoentn doesn't react properly he basically loses all his stuff without you losing much. If he does scan or have some unit to give vision you suddenly lose all your tanks instantly. It's way too gimmicky. Also the unit would not be the unit to put this on, as such a gas heavy unit it's not a likely unit to have a place in mech wars.
A smoke/fog effect would be much more interesting. You would throw down smoke grenades and units inside the fog/smoke can't be seen regardless of vision/scans etc. However units inside the smoke are also impossible to attack themselves. It could be used to close the distance on units and to fake attacks as the opponent would never know how much units you have hiding under the smoke.
Anyway there are probably much more elegant ways to prevent the tank line problem, better then the warhound as well (which is a crappy design). The nuke could just be given a longer casting range with a lower impact for example. It would be able to disrupt a tank line so you can move in. Otherwise give the thor for example a mortar shot ability, it fires a shell at very long range but it takes 5 seconds to impact. It would only be good against stationary targets ie tanks as other units could easily avoid it (low impact area).
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Am I the only one who likes the positional based slow-paced TvT?
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I don't see this completely viable at all. The other guy is gonna end up seeing those smoke grenades put up and wonder why his vision is so small, and just scan. Since lategame TvT involves building up orbitals and having free scans everywhere.
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Love this! Smoke bombs, so human.
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On June 19 2012 01:05 Markwerf wrote:
Wouldn't do much good. Basically this sight war is already going on as tanks shoot further then they can see so the player air dominance can basically push the one without.
In practice however many things would void the use of this completely. Your opponent could have air to look over the smoke screen, he could scan or he could just have his tanks at the watchtower. Vision manipulaiton is a bad thing to rely on anyway because it's very gimmicky. Suppose you throw down a smoke screen and move in. If the oppoentn doesn't react properly he basically loses all his stuff without you losing much. If he does scan or have some unit to give vision you suddenly lose all your tanks instantly. It's way too gimmicky. Also the unit would not be the unit to put this on, as such a gas heavy unit it's not a likely unit to have a place in mech wars.
A smoke/fog effect would be much more interesting. You would throw down smoke grenades and units inside the fog/smoke can't be seen regardless of vision/scans etc. However units inside the smoke are also impossible to attack themselves. It could be used to close the distance on units and to fake attacks as the opponent would never know how much units you have hiding under the smoke.
Anyway there are probably much more elegant ways to prevent the tank line problem, better then the warhound as well (which is a crappy design). The nuke could just be given a longer casting range with a lower impact for example. It would be able to disrupt a tank line so you can move in. Otherwise give the thor for example a mortar shot ability, it fires a shell at very long range but it takes 5 seconds to impact. It would only be good against stationary targets ie tanks as other units could easily avoid it (low impact area).
You make a pretty good point. Blizzard should test some of that out.
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Who still cares about siege lines? When was the last time any pro built a "real siege line" in a match?
They are pretty inefficient, because the required density of units for the defenders means you can only cover one tiny piece of a map and the attacker can simply move around it. The good old siege lines from BW with turrets and a few bunkers and siege tanks have been dead since launch of SC2 due to the perfect movement AI which allows very tight balls of units for the attacker ... which lets him crush any siege line easily (if done correctly and not just a wave of Zerglings).
Not only that, but Hallucination (to send in first to draw tank fire), blink, "free" broodlings (and the new free Zerg tank-fodder from Swarm Hosts), infested terrans (dropped on the tanks), stimmed marauders, ... give wayy too many easy options to break such a line that I think something to actually strengthen them would be a good idea. The flamethrower addon for the bunker from the campaign might be a good start and additional building armor upgrades as well.
Siege tanks are killed too easily and are the only really well designed unit in the whole game due to their many drawbacks, chief among it is the friendly fire which really hurts the terran more than the attacker. Sadly they are designed for just such a siege line play ... which has too many counters and thus the siege tank should be replaced by more durable mechs with all their air vents sealed tightly and an electified outer hull (to prevent that mind control tentacle from finding a target). Either the friendly fire gets scrapped OR the siege tank is scrapped OR the siege tank gets some other buffs.
hint: The terran counter to siege lines (if you are mech yourself) is called Battlecruiser.
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Personally I think Blizzard shouldnt focus on "new units" for the expansions, but rather on "new abilities" or "alternative versions" of current units. The transforming hellion is a good example and adding that 22 range shot to the carrier would be another easy one (and it might even fix that unit to be useable again). You could have Marauders with anti-air rockets for example or banelings which are able to move underground but have only a "non-stacking damage over time" attack from their explosion instead. The mothership core and the mothership could be interchangeable (after the mothership has been built) with the core version granting extra regeneration to shields and energy to surrounding units.
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I was going through Liquipedia's list of cut abilities from Sc2 and found this one.
Seems like Blizzard has already considered an ability like this, but for Zerg.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Kvklg.jpg)
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