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On June 12 2012 04:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches.
I think Stalkers should be made biological/mechanical like SCVs. Makes sense from a realistic standpoint as well as giving blinding cloud limited use versus Protoss.
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On June 12 2012 05:11 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches. I think Stalkers should be made biological/mechanical like SCVs. Makes sense from a realistic standpoint as well as giving blinding cloud limited use versus Protoss.
It wouldn't make sense, actually, no more than it would make sense for Terran mech to be bio/mechanical just because there's a biological occupant.
SCVs have the biological type because they are substantially composed of something biological, but most of the mass of a vehicle or a stalker is mechanical.
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On June 12 2012 05:25 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 05:11 SmileZerg wrote:On June 12 2012 04:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches. I think Stalkers should be made biological/mechanical like SCVs. Makes sense from a realistic standpoint as well as giving blinding cloud limited use versus Protoss. It wouldn't make sense, actually, no more than it would make sense for Terran mech to be bio/mechanical just because there's a biological occupant. SCVs have the biological type because they are substantially composed of something biological, but most of the mass of a vehicle or a stalker is mechanical.
A stalker is just a dark templar in a mechanical frame - not even fully enclosed, his head sticks out the front for fuck's sake. Marauders have more a right to be considered mechanical than a Stalker does, and yet they are classified as bio only.
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Is the Warhound's autocast Haywire attack count as spell damage or upgradable secondary weapon damage?
Does the battle hellion require a full attack animation to do it's cone damage or can it be stutter step micro'd to a useful degree?
Can you widow mine your own units? Can you pick up units with widow mines deployed on them? Do they kill the medivac? Transfer to the medivac? Can they be used as aerial bombardment by dropping scv's laden with widow mines on to enemy units?
The viper is NOT psionic? Whew boy... I guess ghosts really are becoming niche in TvZ.
What is the size of the Mothership Core's mass recall? Is it the same as the Mothership (absolutely gigantic) or just the slightly larger than fungal size it was on the old reveal?
Oh, ultralisk viper harass is going to be righteous... charge into a mineral line, instantly aoe smash scv's and then abduct them back.... then constantly repeat because it only costs 75 energy and viper can consume xDDD
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Do you get a combat alert when a mine is attachted to a unit or when it explodes?
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On June 12 2012 05:31 kranten wrote:
Do you get a combat alert when a mine is attachted to a unit or when it explodes?
I don't see why you wouldn't get one upon detonation, but I don't believe they would alert you when it attaches.
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I'm not seeing the widow mine making it past beta. It's an interesting mix of vulture mines and irradiate from sc1 but, I dunno just the idea behind it makes me think it will either be stupid OP or kinda crap.
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On June 12 2012 05:51 Neurosis wrote:
I'm not seeing the widow mine making it past beta. It's an interesting mix of vulture mines and irradiate from sc1 but, I dunno just the idea behind it makes me think it will either be stupid OP or kinda crap.
It can be either but that depends entirely on player skill. That's EXACTLY what this game needs. Widow Mine better make it in, even if it has to see some tweaks. It's easily the coolest thing Terran is getting with the most interesting changes to the various match-ups.
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On June 12 2012 05:51 Neurosis wrote:
I'm not seeing the widow mine making it past beta. It's an interesting mix of vulture mines and irradiate from sc1 but, I dunno just the idea behind it makes me think it will either be stupid OP or kinda crap.
They actually seem very interesting, besides having such a long time to move the affected units out of your cluster? That's compensating a lot.
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On June 12 2012 05:29 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 05:25 sunprince wrote:On June 12 2012 05:11 SmileZerg wrote:On June 12 2012 04:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches. I think Stalkers should be made biological/mechanical like SCVs. Makes sense from a realistic standpoint as well as giving blinding cloud limited use versus Protoss. It wouldn't make sense, actually, no more than it would make sense for Terran mech to be bio/mechanical just because there's a biological occupant. SCVs have the biological type because they are substantially composed of something biological, but most of the mass of a vehicle or a stalker is mechanical. A stalker is just a dark templar in a mechanical frame - not even fully enclosed, his head sticks out the front for fuck's sake. Marauders have more a right to be considered mechanical than a Stalker does, and yet they are classified as bio only.
Arent Stalkers just the "essence of a Protoss stored in a crystal" at the core of a big mechanical animated unit? Thus there isnt any flesh involved and "biological" wouldnt make sense.
On June 11 2012 23:15 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 21:17 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 06:20 sunprince wrote:On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote:
Feedback is lousy
As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. Why not simply change energy-using abilities to cooldown-based abilities where appropriate? Because it doesnt work for units which have several abilities like the new Protoss ones or even BCs in HotS (they get a new ability, right?). On June 11 2012 06:26 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote:
Feedback is lousy
As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. A lot of players are now yamatoing rocks before engagements so they have no energy to get feedback. + Show Spoiler +A. You HAVE TO research the Yamato upgrade first AND
B. you HAVE TO wait until all your BCs have 150+ energy ... stupid concept (same for Thors and not every map has rocks close to where they would be needed).
A much cheaper solution is to EMP the BCs yourself (what an awesome concept) ... twice obviously since EMP only removes 100 energy, but at least BCs can be stacked. The new abilities are nice, but the real purpose for feedback is to counter Ghosts. HTs arent really the best way to deal with Medivacs, because they are above the terran bio army and only if the terran screws up (or tries to drop your base) can you really get them. This thread is about HotS, complaining about how WoL units interact with other WoL units has no place here.
You do realize that units dont exist in a sandbox and that you have to look at them while having the rest of the game in the back of your mind?(*1) Thus it is important to point out that the relatively cheap spell Feedback will make the new units pretty much useless in a PvP and that there are certain necessary changes to keep them viable and fun. The whole "Feedback needs to be changed for the sake of new Protoss units" has its beginnings in the total stupidity of being able to kill Thors and Battlecruisers - whose energy is purely mechanical and not psionic and shouldnt be affected by that psionic feedback ability - very easily with that spell which is a legacy of Wings of Liberty. Either feedback gets changed or Blizzard has created a few more new units which are useful as BCs and Thors against Protoss.
(*1) Check the second sentence in the paragraph Tump quoted from my earlier post ... Sure I started with BCs, but the same "logic" would apply to the new units and keeping feedback as it is would make the units useless.
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my god, people arguing without playing the game
can't wait to mech vs protoss
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Regarding the Mechanical vs. Biological debate and people discussing Stalkers and how things worked in BW: In BW, these tags were a bit messed up anyway.
Some abilities affected mechanical units (Lockdown), some affected biological units (Irradiate, Heal, Maelstrom). So far so good. However, Spawn Broodling seems to affect biological units, but affected units that are not affected by Irradiate / Heal / Maelstrom (Vultures, Goliaths, Tanks, Dragoons). On the SC site it says the ability targets any non-robotic ground unit, and yet it doesn't work on Archons or Dark Archons- neither of which is robotic (there is no such thing as a "robotic" unit tag in SC anyway).
In SC2, the PDD is the closest thing to Spawn Broodling from SC:BW in terms of just affecting some units but not others with no additional specification as to whether they have to be massive, mechanical, biological, armored, light, psionic, etc... at least the game's help menu specifically tells you which units it works against; the game seems to be pretty consistent with its tags otherwise (still kind of perplexed about the Viper not being considered Psionic TBH, it might just be an oversight). As to whether Blinding Cloud should affect Stalkers or not... I'm getting the impression that with HotS, Blizzard intentionally decided to add some matchup-specific mechanics. They wanted mech to be better against Protoss without making it any better against Zerg, so they add the Warhound which is only half as good as it should be if the enemy has no mechanical units; Mothership Core recall looks like it was very specifically put there to allow Protoss to attack Zerg in the early game without risking outright losing the game if Zerg made lots of speedlings and catches you out in the field; In the case of Blinding Cloud, I'm guessing they wanted to give Z more options in TvZ and not so much in ZvP (for instance, Zerglings with Blinding Cloud should be good vs. Marines; Zerglings don't need Blinding Cloud to be good vs. Stalkers).
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Just an interesting thought but isn't a nydus worm considered a building. Vipers can only supposedly latch onto buildings. Those cannot regenerate energy in combat on the otherside of the map however if you have a worm present than you theoretically could regenerate energy while attacking the other players base.
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On June 12 2012 04:31 Inkstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:15 whateversclever wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Seriously? Yes. Protoss wants to build good units. How this supports your case, I have no idea. Am I supposed to max out Probes against Terran or something?
Mineral and gas values make everything decieving? So if a Mine kills my Stalker, the fact that the Stalker has greater "mineral and gas values" decieved me, and really I should keep trading Stalkers one by one into Mines?
I'm really confused as to what you are trying to get to. The three posts within the spoiler below contain my analysis on widow mines. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +I really don't get everyone's obsession with the widow mine. I can see some select strategies that they counter which I'll point out, but I simply don't believe that justifies their spot in the game. Advantages Against Each RacevTerran+ Show Spoiler +- Banshee / Cloaked Banshee Rush: Widow mines feel like they were designed specifically to destroy banshees. They only require a factory as tech, have an incredibly short build time, can detect cloaked, and can be placed near the mineral lines to ensure a kill. A smart player could even plant a widow mine near the ramp between their natural and lure the banshee with a SCV transfer.
- Dropship Play: Same concept as the banshee though less reliable. Medivacs usually unload in odd spots before attacking and there's also the chance that the mine might randomly target a unit that was just deployed. The 10 second is also detrimental to their effectiveness here. - Starport Tech: Phoenixes, voidrays, and oracles all fall to the spider mine in a similar fashion as the banshee. The phoenix will be the most likely to get caught with their fast movement speed and scouting role. Oracles, on the contrary, will protection if pre-ordain is used on the nexus to scout for widow mines within the mineral line (though that also leads to predictability).
- Dark Templar: The fact that Protoss loses a 100 gas when a spider mine attaches to one of these units is horrifying for how well they counter them. A widow mine placed in a choke point can easily serve as both detection and general defense against Protoss. If not, the mines within the mineral lines will get the dark templars regardless. - Mutas: If the pattern wasn't already obvious, widow mines work exceptionally well against flying units that try to counter-attack while Terran's main force is away. The short attack-range of mutas also forces them into predictable positions while being unable to directly attack the mines. A morphed overseer added into the muta pack, however, makes this significantly less effective.
- Burrowed Infestors: Note that this only counters infestors burrowing into Terran's base if an overseer hasn't already scouted it's path. If an overseer has, then expect the infestors to either destroy them for 25 energy or use a different, safer route into the unsuspecting base. - Marines & Marauders: The bread and butter of bio as well as the main units that will be found in a counter-attack. The uncontrollable nature of widow mines means these will be the likely targets and result in inefficient trades.
- Hellions: Mech's mineral dump, a.k.a. the hellion, results in a 25 mineral for 25 gas trade. That also assumes that the hellion neither kills any unit nor scouts any valuable information in the 10 seconds it has before detonation.
- Warhouds: The warhound's high health allows them to survive the blast and their anti-mech missiles will automatically rip them out of the ground.
- Thor: Same reasoning as the warhound.
- Raven / Scans: Detection if sacrificing units isn't a reasonable option. - Zerglings & Roaches: Though roaches might not always be in a zerg army; I gaurantee that zerglings will. They're present from beginning to end and will likely be the front-runners of any counterattack. This combination of T1 units makes the resources traded simply painful for the Terran player. The saving grace is that Zerg has better things to do then micro units.
- Overlords: Designate one or two to sweep for mines. They don't take up supply so the Zerg army isn't affected and the trade in resources is beneficial.
- Broodlings, Locusts & Infested Terrans: These temporary units may not force detonations but that doesn't stop them from destroying the widow mines when given detection.
- Nydus Network: An alternate path that avoids the widow mines entirely.
- Ultralisks: Can survive multiple widow mines with the added benefit that only one can latch on at a time to prevent a guaranteed kill.
- Banelings: ...
- Spine Crawler: ...? I'm not going to deny that losing any unit, save possibly the zealot, is a heavy loss when taken out by a widow mine. The question, however, is how often will that happen? Most Protoss builds already have some kind of innate protection against widow mines.
- Blink Stalker: The observer that grants vision on the high ground will also allow your stalkers to pick off mines as they move across the map.
- Collossus Timings: Same as before with using the observer to destroy mines.
- Immortal Timings: Let the immortals lead the way and widow mines will waste themselves to deal a measly 10 rechargeable damage.
- Warp Prism: A route along the edge of the map ensures that you avoid the widow mines and it really doesn't matter if you collect one while in the base. The small aoe and 10 second delay should warp prism to both unload and warp in a set of units before being destroyed.
- Stargate Tech: Incorporate an oracle into the build and pre-ordain the pylon on the low ground for detection (2nd part is optional and used to take out widow mines buried on the edge).
- Chargelot / Archon: Sacrifice some zealots and it's good to go. So, what is it that everyone sees in the widow mine that I have overlooked? - - - - - - - - - - PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with. Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it. 1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out? 2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)? 3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building? On June 12 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +They are cost effective with almost every unit in the game. They take up one supply, cost 75/25 and can insta kill a stalker, roach, maruader. There are very few units that the mine is not cost effective against, ie zerglings, zealots and marines. I don't disagree that they can trade very cost effectively, but I simply fail to see why I would build them. Widow mines cost a meching Terran time on their factories, aren't exactly free, take supply away from your main army (although not much), and are limited in their utility from what I can see. Protoss usually follows a very basic pattern about sending units out onto the map. There may be some variation but this is how it'll usually go. 1. Probe goes forward to scout the Terran base and eventually retreats when the first marine appears. 2. Protoss's beginning units (stalker, zealot & stalker, or two stalkers) push back across the map to take back towers and check expansions. 3. Protoss retreats again back to towers and eventually to the base if need be. 4. Protoss attacks with a 2-base timing attack that already has some kind of protection against burrowed widow mines. If not, they use a small force to ensure that the 3rd can be safely and follow with a 3 base timing attack. You also have to consider that a proxy pylon would change the route they take to attack the Terran base. Hell, let's say Protoss gets edgy and sends a stalker rather than a probe to see what's happening and it gets caught. Protoss traded 50 minerals and 25 gas to know that Terran invested in widow mines and whatever else the stalker scouted in the following 10 seconds. On June 12 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by. You're missing the point. Despite the mineral and gas values that make everything decieving, you will never get a good trade against Protoss. Widow mines don't force Protoss to do anything differently while possibly making their attack even better. You are supplying them with a unit that makes them want to build what they ALREADY wanted to build. - Protoss wants to build observers that let them see into Terran's base and grant vision to their ground units. - Protoss wants to build immortals that will tank damage and reduce widow mines to tick bites. - Protoss wants to build archons to tank the front lines which allows them to survive the widow mines. - Protoss wants to build oracles to put pre-ordain on key buildings to grant vision, information and detection. - Protoss wants to build colossi to pick off units safely from the back which, of course, would include widow mines. The only difference now is that the Terran army has less marines, marauders, hellions, warhounds or tanks to defend this push because they invested in widow mines. Widow mines don't help early game and their effects on the late are dubious at best. So, in short, a Protoss's stalker should never be taken out by a widow mine. They come out after Protoss's early agression and the main attack will already have something that counters them. - - - - - - - - Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:23 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I personally don't think it will work that way at all and I am excited to see how people end up using the unit. Right now, zerg make great us of burrowed lings against protoss and I am sure that terran can do the same. DRG, who just won MLG, thought they were amazing units and hoped they were nerfed. But clearly you have figured it out. No, I am here because I don't know how to optimally use the unit and was hoping that someone could show me what I'm missing. Some effective ideas that spring to mind would be...- Disabling Reinforcements: Positioning the spider mines would be a hassle but the pay-off would be rewarding (similar to Gurrpp's tactic of intercepting vipers as they head back to base). - The "Oh **** That Ended Badly* Unit: Your entire army got destroyed and now the enemy is pressing in. Build as many of these as possible to slow down their advance since widow mines don't require other units to be effective.
good points and analysis.
However, as I understand the activation range is six, right? therefore the only way you can kill it without losses is with units of 7 range or more (very rare) & a detector or with rines/lings/workers that trade well or with immortals that take little damage from it
Also, if it attaches to any unit other than those it trades well, and since it's production cost is pretty small, it served its purpose and weakened whatever attack it attached to. Additionally, not only did it trade well with the enemy attack, it also sapped some of the enemy player's attention or else obliterated the enemy push
Also, even if you get a colossus (upgraded)/spine crawler/thor/siege tank//broodlord/swarm host/tempest/mothership and a detector, you have to tiptoe through the minefield to be able to snipe them from out of their range, thus taking even more attention and time (for instance, if you wanted to slow an enemy push while your economic or tech advantage took effect)
Again, trading a widow mine for even 1 roach or marauder or ovie or zealot or baneling or hellion is at worst a meh trade that took some of your opponent's attention and in the middle a decent trade that met or barely exceeded the widow mine's cost while sapping that attention or at best a massive blow to the enemy force.
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On June 13 2012 01:37 terranghost wrote:
Just an interesting thought but isn't a nydus worm considered a building. Vipers can only supposedly latch onto buildings. Those cannot regenerate energy in combat on the otherside of the map however if you have a worm present than you theoretically could regenerate energy while attacking the other players base.
very interesting point, also awesome quote of a sig:
"A thief is slightly nobler than congress. That is a thief will take our money and be on his way. A congressman will take our money then bore us with the reason we should be happy about it." -Walter E. Williams
rofl
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slasher and DB talking
After watching the gamespot clip (above) i really think that the 22 range or something above 17 is allright as the tempest won't work if you mass them due to their low damage to cost ratio. Protoss player will build them in their early to mid game army to support their regular army and too harrass from a far or to force an engagement. In the late game a solo tempest won't be able to harass that well but might work as a catalyst for an explosive engagement. Especially if you are sniping valuable casters like a viper or a ghost.
One idea that might make the tempest more interesting is if it would make more damage closer to its target and less damage when at its max range. That way you would encourage the tempest user to talk over as a pilot (moving back and forth to maximize damage while at the same time minimizing enemy fire) rather then given order where to fire (just shift clicking units from a far)
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On June 12 2012 05:51 Neurosis wrote:
I'm not seeing the widow mine making it past beta. It's an interesting mix of vulture mines and irradiate from sc1 but, I dunno just the idea behind it makes me think it will either be stupid OP or kinda crap. Yeah this is what has me worrried, it either getting nerfed to the point of almost being useless or taken out. However I think giving it something like 4 range may be a good enough nerf, as long as Marines and Stalkers out range them they shouldn't be too bad.
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On June 13 2012 02:11 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 05:51 Neurosis wrote:
I'm not seeing the widow mine making it past beta. It's an interesting mix of vulture mines and irradiate from sc1 but, I dunno just the idea behind it makes me think it will either be stupid OP or kinda crap. Yeah this is what has me worrried, it either getting nerfed to the point of almost being useless or taken out. However I think giving it something like 4 range may be a good enough nerf, as long as Marines and Stalkers out range them they shouldn't be too bad.
could also be changed that the pouncing will take 0.5 to prepare in which time a widow mine can still be destroyed with detection, would allow stalkers to snipe the widow mine with detection, but not without the risk of getting destroyed. Like the spidermine had sever patterns how you put them down, to do different things. Scattered or in a line etc. There are alot of things they can change, to make it exciting. While Range 4 would be pretty useless even against zerg as a defense.
This way or the other Terran will probably get an seekermissile like mechanic that works outside of the deathball. (seeker missile with 75 energy would be enough, the 125 energy is still when the missile was fusion core and destroyed whole fleets in a single blow)
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I guess theorycrafting on the forums is fun but none of what you guys are saying has any worth whatsoever unless you tested your arguments at Anaheim or have been granted alpha access and can do testin that way. Hopefully you're discerning enough to have learned after two years of WoL that you can't know the effects of balance changes until you've tested them.
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Has the fact that protoss is going to have unlimited chrono boost to use on probes or whatever been discussed yet?
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EPT
