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On June 12 2012 02:22 Snoodles wrote:
Can anyone recreate this into the HoTs custom map? I for one want to see how TvT plays out now. I mean, the warhound is cheaper than the tank, more mobile, directly counters it. What is that going to look like?
I am not sure that is correct. The Warhound does good damage to against tanks, but also takes good damage from them as well. I am sure that tanks with their own warhound support would pretty efficiently deal with a pure warhound push. With a range of 7 on is main attack.
Plus the freaking mines that deal with everything efficiently except for zerglings, zealots and marines.
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On June 12 2012 02:26 gurrpp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:40 Inkstorm wrote:
PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with.
Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it.
1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out?
2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)?
3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building? 1. No explosion at all. This is why the widow mine will be useless in main engagements. Your units at the front that get mined will either die from enemy fire or can be easily focused by your own units. 2 and 3 are interesting, but I haven't tried them out. I found that the widow mines were the most useful as an aggressive map control tool(rather than being used defensively against drops), especially against zerg. Often zergs will move their vipers between their base and army to recharge energy. Catching out a vipers with widow mines is very cost effective.
They are cost effective with almost every unit in the game. They take up one supply, cost 75/25 and can insta kill a stalker, roach, maruader. There are very few units that the mine is not cost effective against, ie zerglings, zealots and marines.
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On June 12 2012 02:26 gurrpp wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 00:40 Inkstorm wrote:
PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with.
Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it.
1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out?
2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)?
3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building? 1. No explosion at all. This is why the widow mine will be useless in main engagements. Your units at the front that get mined will either die from enemy fire or can be easily focused by your own units. 2 and 3 are interesting, but I haven't tried them out. I found that the widow mines were the most useful as an aggressive map control tool(rather than being used defensively against drops), especially against zerg. Often zergs will move their vipers between their base and army to recharge energy. Catching out a vipers with widow mines is very cost effective.
Damn, I was really hoping that killing the unit would force a detonation. That would also serve for some interesting gameplay if you had the ability to manually attach the mine to one of your units. Place one on a tank that you feel is about to be abducted or on a sacrificial maruader whose about to stim for his last time.
How effective would you say you found them overall? What were their best uses, and if it was offensive then how did you get them in place?
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On June 12 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +They are cost effective with almost every unit in the game. They take up one supply, cost 75/25 and can insta kill a stalker, roach, maruader. There are very few units that the mine is not cost effective against, ie zerglings, zealots and marines.
I don't disagree that they can trade very cost effectively, but I simply fail to see why I would build them. Widow mines cost a meching Terran time on their factories, aren't exactly free, take supply away from your main army (although not much), and are limited in their utility from what I can see.
Protoss usually follows a very basic pattern about sending units out onto the map. There may be some variation but this is how it'll usually go.
1. Probe goes forward to scout the Terran base and eventually retreats when the first marine appears.
2. Protoss's beginning units (stalker, zealot & stalker, or two stalkers) push back across the map to take back towers and check expansions.
3. Protoss retreats again back to towers and eventually to the base if need be.
4. Protoss attacks with a 2-base timing attack that already has some kind of protection against burrowed widow mines. If not, they use a small force to ensure that the 3rd can be safely and follow with a 3 base timing attack.
You also have to consider that a proxy pylon would change the route they take to attack the Terran base. Hell, let's say Protoss gets edgy and sends a stalker rather than a probe to see what's happening and it gets caught. Protoss traded 50 minerals and 25 gas to know that Terran invested in widow mines and whatever else the stalker scouted in the following 10 seconds.
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bye bye banshee openers TvT
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On June 12 2012 03:03 gurrpp wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I would say they're pretty ineffective. I didn't use them really at all tvt, since they're not very useful vs marines. I played zerg vs terran and found them pretty annoying. Like I said, vipers can be easily picked off. I'm also sure you could do other annoying stuff with the mines, such as making queens afraid to move out to plant tumors early game, leaving one at the zerg's third in case he snuck a drone past your hellions. In other words, you can force zerg to have to clear the map with overseers. PvT is ueseless, since you can just keep your army together with an observer. I guess you could catch an oracle out, but they still seem kind of useless, from my limited experience of them.
I think the main problem is they won't ever do splash damage if you split your units, so you want to go for expensive units which can be one shot with the mines in order to be cost effective. Maybe if blizzard made the timer go away and had an animation for the mine latching on, it might make it more interesting.
Hmmm... it'll be interesting to see how they change them for the future. Did you get a chance to play around with the shredder before it was scrapped for the widow mine? If so, how did they compare in their role of "managing space" and preventing "couter-attacks"?
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On June 12 2012 02:37 Inkstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:26 gurrpp wrote:On June 12 2012 00:40 Inkstorm wrote:
PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with.
Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it.
1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out?
2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)?
3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building? 1. No explosion at all. This is why the widow mine will be useless in main engagements. Your units at the front that get mined will either die from enemy fire or can be easily focused by your own units. 2 and 3 are interesting, but I haven't tried them out. I found that the widow mines were the most useful as an aggressive map control tool(rather than being used defensively against drops), especially against zerg. Often zergs will move their vipers between their base and army to recharge energy. Catching out a vipers with widow mines is very cost effective. Damn, I was really hoping that killing the unit would force a detonation. That would also serve for some interesting gameplay if you had the ability to manually attach the mine to one of your units. Place one on a tank that you feel is about to be abducted or on a sacrificial maruader whose about to stim for his last time. How effective would you say you found them overall? What were their best uses, and if it was offensive then how did you get them in place?
I would say they're pretty ineffective. I didn't use them really at all tvt, since they're not very useful vs marines. I played zerg vs terran and found them pretty annoying. Like I said, vipers can be easily picked off. I'm also sure you could do other annoying stuff with the mines, such as making queens afraid to move out to plant tumors early game, leaving one at the zerg's third in case he snuck a drone past your hellions. In other words, you can force zerg to have to clear the map with overseers. PvT is ueseless, since you can just keep your army together with an observer. I guess you could catch an oracle out, but they still seem kind of useless, from my limited experience of them.
I think the main problem is they won't ever do splash damage if you split your units, so you want to go for expensive units which can be one shot with the mines in order to be cost effective. Maybe if blizzard made the timer go away and had an animation for the mine latching on, it might make it more interesting.
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On June 12 2012 02:37 Inkstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +They are cost effective with almost every unit in the game. They take up one supply, cost 75/25 and can insta kill a stalker, roach, maruader. There are very few units that the mine is not cost effective against, ie zerglings, zealots and marines. I don't disagree that they can trade very cost effectively, but I simply fail to see why I would build them. Widow mines cost a meching Terran time on their factories, aren't exactly free, take supply away from your main army (although not much), and are limited in their utility from what I can see. Protoss usually follows a very basic pattern about sending units out onto the map. There may be some variation but this is how it'll usually go. 1. Probe goes forward to scout the Terran base and eventually retreats when the first marine appears. 2. Protoss's beginning units (stalker, zealot & stalker, or two stalkers) push back across the map to take back towers and check expansions. 3. Protoss retreats again back to towers and eventually to the base if need be. 4. Protoss attacks with a 2-base timing attack that already has some kind of protection against burrowed widow mines. If not, they use a small force to ensure that the 3rd can be safely and follow with a 3 base timing attack. You also have to consider that a proxy pylon would change the route they take to attack the Terran base. Hell, let's say Protoss gets edgy and sends a stalker rather than a probe to see what's happening and it gets caught. Protoss traded 50 minerals and 25 gas to know that Terran invested in widow mines and whatever else the stalker scouted in the following 10 seconds.
That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by.
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On June 12 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by.
You're missing the point. Despite the mineral and gas values that make everything decieving, you will never get a good trade against Protoss. Widow mines don't force Protoss to do anything differently while possibly making their attack even better. You are supplying them with a unit that makes them want to build what they ALREADY wanted to build.
- Protoss wants to build observers that let them see into Terran's base and grant vision to their ground units.
- Protoss wants to build immortals that will tank damage and reduce widow mines to tick bites.
- Protoss wants to build archons to tank the front lines which allows them to survive the widow mines.
- Protoss wants to build oracles to put pre-ordain on key buildings to grant vision, information and detection.
- Protoss wants to build colossi to pick off units safely from the back which, of course, would include widow mines.
The only difference now is that the Terran army has less marines, marauders, hellions, warhounds or tanks to defend this push because they invested in widow mines. Widow mines don't help early game and their effects on the late are dubious at best.
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On June 12 2012 04:09 Garmer wrote:
widow mine take only one supply, and it's supposed to use them with tank
Based on what Gurpp observed, widow mines don't detonate on units that have been destroyed.
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widow mine take only one supply, and it's supposed to use them with tank
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On June 12 2012 04:04 Inkstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by. You're missing the point. Despite the mineral and gas values that make everything decieving, you will never get a good trade against Protoss. Widow mines don't force Protoss to do anything differently while possibly making their attack even better. You are supplying them with a unit that makes them want to build what they ALREADY wanted to build. - Protoss wants to build observers that let them see into Terran's base and grant vision to their ground units. - Protoss wants to build immortals that will tank damage and reduce widow mines to tick bites. - Protoss wants to build archons to tank the front lines which allows them to survive the widow mines. - Protoss wants to build oracles to put pre-ordain on key buildings to grant vision, information and detection. - Protoss wants to build colossi to pick off units safely from the back which would include widow mines. The only difference now is that the Terran army has less marines, marauders, hellions, warhounds or tanks to defend this push because they invested in widow mines. Widow mines don't help early game and their effects on the late are dubious at best.
Seriously? Yes. Protoss wants to build good units. How this supports your case, I have no idea. Am I supposed to max out Probes against Terran or something?
Mineral and gas values make everything decieving? So if a Mine kills my Stalker, the fact that the Stalker has greater "mineral and gas values" decieved me, and really I should keep trading Stalkers one by one into Mines?
I'm really confused as to what you are trying to get to.
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With the current stats tempests seems quite bad.
vrs massive they do 66 damage every 6 seconds or 11 dps. That the dps if a single stim marine IIRC
yeah they have 22 range but what is the point of doing bad damage at long range
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wish scourge was in there T_T
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On June 12 2012 04:04 Inkstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by. You're missing the point. Despite the mineral and gas values that make everything decieving, you will never get a good trade against Protoss. Widow mines don't force Protoss to do anything differently while possibly making their attack even better. You are supplying them with a unit that makes them want to build what they ALREADY wanted to build. - Protoss wants to build observers that let them see into Terran's base and grant vision to their ground units. - Protoss wants to build immortals that will tank damage and reduce widow mines to tick bites. - Protoss wants to build archons to tank the front lines which allows them to survive the widow mines. - Protoss wants to build oracles to put pre-ordain on key buildings to grant vision, information and detection. - Protoss wants to build colossi to pick off units safely from the back which, of course, would include widow mines. The only difference now is that the Terran army has less marines, marauders, hellions, warhounds or tanks to defend this push because they invested in widow mines. Widow mines don't help early game and their effects on the late are dubious at best.
I personally don't think it will work that way at all and I am excited to see how people end up using the unit. Right now, zerg make great us of burrowed lings against protoss and I am sure that terran can do the same. DRG, who just won MLG, thought they were amazing units and hoped they were nerfed. But clearly you have figured it out.
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On June 12 2012 04:15 whateversclever wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Seriously? Yes. Protoss wants to build good units. How this supports your case, I have no idea. Am I supposed to max out Probes against Terran or something?
Mineral and gas values make everything decieving? So if a Mine kills my Stalker, the fact that the Stalker has greater "mineral and gas values" decieved me, and really I should keep trading Stalkers one by one into Mines?
I'm really confused as to what you are trying to get to.
The three posts within the spoiler below contain my analysis on widow mines.
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +I really don't get everyone's obsession with the widow mine. I can see some select strategies that they counter which I'll point out, but I simply don't believe that justifies their spot in the game. Advantages Against Each RacevTerran+ Show Spoiler +- Banshee / Cloaked Banshee Rush: Widow mines feel like they were designed specifically to destroy banshees. They only require a factory as tech, have an incredibly short build time, can detect cloaked, and can be placed near the mineral lines to ensure a kill. A smart player could even plant a widow mine near the ramp between their natural and lure the banshee with a SCV transfer.
- Dropship Play: Same concept as the banshee though less reliable. Medivacs usually unload in odd spots before attacking and there's also the chance that the mine might randomly target a unit that was just deployed. The 10 second is also detrimental to their effectiveness here. - Starport Tech: Phoenixes, voidrays, and oracles all fall to the spider mine in a similar fashion as the banshee. The phoenix will be the most likely to get caught with their fast movement speed and scouting role. Oracles, on the contrary, will protection if pre-ordain is used on the nexus to scout for widow mines within the mineral line (though that also leads to predictability).
- Dark Templar: The fact that Protoss loses a 100 gas when a spider mine attaches to one of these units is horrifying for how well they counter them. A widow mine placed in a choke point can easily serve as both detection and general defense against Protoss. If not, the mines within the mineral lines will get the dark templars regardless. - Mutas: If the pattern wasn't already obvious, widow mines work exceptionally well against flying units that try to counter-attack while Terran's main force is away. The short attack-range of mutas also forces them into predictable positions while being unable to directly attack the mines. A morphed overseer added into the muta pack, however, makes this significantly less effective.
- Burrowed Infestors: Note that this only counters infestors burrowing into Terran's base if an overseer hasn't already scouted it's path. If an overseer has, then expect the infestors to either destroy them for 25 energy or use a different, safer route into the unsuspecting base. - Marines & Marauders: The bread and butter of bio as well as the main units that will be found in a counter-attack. The uncontrollable nature of widow mines means these will be the likely targets and result in inefficient trades.
- Hellions: Mech's mineral dump, a.k.a. the hellion, results in a 25 mineral for 25 gas trade. That also assumes that the hellion neither kills any unit nor scouts any valuable information in the 10 seconds it has before detonation.
- Warhouds: The warhound's high health allows them to survive the blast and their anti-mech missiles will automatically rip them out of the ground.
- Thor: Same reasoning as the warhound.
- Raven / Scans: Detection if sacrificing units isn't a reasonable option. - Zerglings & Roaches: Though roaches might not always be in a zerg army; I gaurantee that zerglings will. They're present from beginning to end and will likely be the front-runners of any counterattack. This combination of T1 units makes the resources traded simply painful for the Terran player. The saving grace is that Zerg has better things to do then micro units.
- Overlords: Designate one or two to sweep for mines. They don't take up supply so the Zerg army isn't affected and the trade in resources is beneficial.
- Broodlings, Locusts & Infested Terrans: These temporary units may not force detonations but that doesn't stop them from destroying the widow mines when given detection.
- Nydus Network: An alternate path that avoids the widow mines entirely.
- Ultralisks: Can survive multiple widow mines with the added benefit that only one can latch on at a time to prevent a guaranteed kill.
- Banelings: ...
- Spine Crawler: ...? I'm not going to deny that losing any unit, save possibly the zealot, is a heavy loss when taken out by a widow mine. The question, however, is how often will that happen? Most Protoss builds already have some kind of innate protection against widow mines.
- Blink Stalker: The observer that grants vision on the high ground will also allow your stalkers to pick off mines as they move across the map.
- Collossus Timings: Same as before with using the observer to destroy mines.
- Immortal Timings: Let the immortals lead the way and widow mines will waste themselves to deal a measly 10 rechargeable damage.
- Warp Prism: A route along the edge of the map ensures that you avoid the widow mines and it really doesn't matter if you collect one while in the base. The small aoe and 10 second delay should warp prism to both unload and warp in a set of units before being destroyed.
- Stargate Tech: Incorporate an oracle into the build and pre-ordain the pylon on the low ground for detection (2nd part is optional and used to take out widow mines buried on the edge).
- Chargelot / Archon: Sacrifice some zealots and it's good to go. So, what is it that everyone sees in the widow mine that I have overlooked? - - - - - - - - - - PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with. Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it. 1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out? 2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)? 3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building? On June 12 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +They are cost effective with almost every unit in the game. They take up one supply, cost 75/25 and can insta kill a stalker, roach, maruader. There are very few units that the mine is not cost effective against, ie zerglings, zealots and marines. I don't disagree that they can trade very cost effectively, but I simply fail to see why I would build them. Widow mines cost a meching Terran time on their factories, aren't exactly free, take supply away from your main army (although not much), and are limited in their utility from what I can see. Protoss usually follows a very basic pattern about sending units out onto the map. There may be some variation but this is how it'll usually go. 1. Probe goes forward to scout the Terran base and eventually retreats when the first marine appears. 2. Protoss's beginning units (stalker, zealot & stalker, or two stalkers) push back across the map to take back towers and check expansions. 3. Protoss retreats again back to towers and eventually to the base if need be. 4. Protoss attacks with a 2-base timing attack that already has some kind of protection against burrowed widow mines. If not, they use a small force to ensure that the 3rd can be safely and follow with a 3 base timing attack. You also have to consider that a proxy pylon would change the route they take to attack the Terran base. Hell, let's say Protoss gets edgy and sends a stalker rather than a probe to see what's happening and it gets caught. Protoss traded 50 minerals and 25 gas to know that Terran invested in widow mines and whatever else the stalker scouted in the following 10 seconds. On June 12 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That sounds pretty great to me, I love killing units efficently. Now the protoss knows they cannot attack or move around the map without detection. An auto targeting baneling that cannot be shot on the way in and is always going to kill one unit sounds beyond amazing and most zerg would love it. The factory time does not sound that bad, since they can be reactored and build quickly. You don't get 20 of them, but a few around the map give you map vision and bring the fear. Protoss do the same thing with pylons for a similar cost, which gives us the option to warp in if we see something we want dead. The mine skips that part and just jumps on to the WP/dropship that is flying by. You're missing the point. Despite the mineral and gas values that make everything decieving, you will never get a good trade against Protoss. Widow mines don't force Protoss to do anything differently while possibly making their attack even better. You are supplying them with a unit that makes them want to build what they ALREADY wanted to build. - Protoss wants to build observers that let them see into Terran's base and grant vision to their ground units. - Protoss wants to build immortals that will tank damage and reduce widow mines to tick bites. - Protoss wants to build archons to tank the front lines which allows them to survive the widow mines. - Protoss wants to build oracles to put pre-ordain on key buildings to grant vision, information and detection. - Protoss wants to build colossi to pick off units safely from the back which, of course, would include widow mines. The only difference now is that the Terran army has less marines, marauders, hellions, warhounds or tanks to defend this push because they invested in widow mines. Widow mines don't help early game and their effects on the late are dubious at best.
So, in short, a Protoss's stalker should never be taken out by a widow mine. They come out after Protoss's early agression and the main attack will already have something that counters them.
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On June 12 2012 04:23 Plansix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I personally don't think it will work that way at all and I am excited to see how people end up using the unit. Right now, zerg make great us of burrowed lings against protoss and I am sure that terran can do the same. DRG, who just won MLG, thought they were amazing units and hoped they were nerfed. But clearly you have figured it out.
No, I am here because I don't know how to optimally use the unit and was hoping that someone could show me what I'm missing.
Some effective ideas that spring to mind would be...
- Disabling Reinforcements: Positioning the spider mines would be a hassle but the pay-off would be rewarding (similar to Gurrpp's tactic of intercepting vipers as they head back to base).
- The "Oh **** That Ended Badly* Unit: Your entire army got destroyed and now the enemy is pressing in. Build as many of these as possible to slow down their advance since widow mines don't require other units to be effective.
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On June 12 2012 04:16 Tantaburs wrote:
With the current stats tempests seems quite bad.
vrs massive they do 66 damage every 6 seconds or 11 dps. That the dps if a single stim marine IIRC
yeah they have 22 range but what is the point of doing bad damage at long range
Well that's a bit of a misnomer b/c against a 5 armor ultralisk, an un-upgraded marine does ~1 damage per shot, dps reduced by ~85%. The tempest has 1 huge volley, so it's dps is reduced by only ~7%. Especially since this is geared as an anti-massive or anti-building unit, raw dps numbers don't tell the whole story.
Still, I'm holding out to see the usefulness. It feels a tad too gimmicky/turtley atm, but it has potential.
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On June 11 2012 19:00 D4V3Z02 wrote:
Good news ), im sorry.
Isn't it wierd that vipers arent psionic? So Vipers wont be sniped when abducting tanks hm.
I doubt that will stay. Vipers will be psionic so ghosts can be good vs them
Despite being a protoss player I was definatly more excited about the zerg units
The swarm hosts looks to be a good way for zerg to be really cost-efficient in the mid-game. I think when they're figured out they're gonna be the best unit of this expansion. I just wish they'd change the name of Swarmer or something.
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In a game with energy-costing storm and fungal I don't see why people are so worried that the widow mine will do TOO MUCH damage for its cost. Must be people who have never lost all their units to multiple storm.
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On June 11 2012 21:17 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 06:20 sunprince wrote:On June 11 2012 06:08 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2012 05:36 Tump wrote:On June 11 2012 00:02 Rabiator wrote:
Feedback is lousy
As long as BCs are still subject to Feedback they remain useless in TvP and the same goes for Thors. One lousy (and relatively cheap) High Templar can fully neutralize a lot of those new and nifty energy based units. Consequently I think Feedback must be changed! IM_MVP disagrees. Also, you ever hear of Ghosts, Scan, and micro? Tell that to Protoss opponents who want to use their new energy units. Its kinda pointless to add so many of them when there is a cheaper hard counter unit in the game. Feedback should be changed to "psionic target only" IMO. Why not simply change energy-using abilities to cooldown-based abilities where appropriate? Because it doesnt work for units which have several abilities like the new Protoss ones or even BCs in HotS (they get a new ability, right?).
The operative word was "appropriate". Multiple-ability units probably make sense being based on energy since they are casters. Non-casters probably shouldn't have multiple abilities in the first place.
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Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches.
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On June 12 2012 04:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Stalker mechanical, Sentry mechanical, Immortal mechanical, Collossus mechanical. The only biological units for P are templar and zealots, all melee. Does the Viper neo-dark swarm affect archons too? If it doesn't, it's pretty silly they made it do nothing at all versus Protoss; in fact the only unit it would blank in ZvP would be your own hydras and roaches.
That's not unprecedented. In BW, lockdown literally does nothing in TvZ.
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EPT
