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On June 12 2012 03:23 whateversclever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 02:45 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 11 2012 18:29 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:03 Sapphire.lux wrote:
whateversclever, the Protoss stuff is ok or not so good while the T and Z stuff is BS and op, right? :p >_< Do people even read, or do they just go by they just make stuff up? The ONLY unit I said was overpowered was widow mine. Warhound, I noted was really strong, but manageable. (suggested no nerf) Swarm Lord, I noted was really strong, and suggested it be changed due to overlap (aside from a level of novelty, it's basically a ranged unit). But did not say was overpowered. Viper, I actually said was underpowered. Tempest I said was underpowered. Oracle I said was just right. Mothership Core, I said was really strong and suggested a nerf. I did read your post, that's how i came to the conclusion that it's funny. Don't get worked up for it though, i'm just teasing you. Nothing wrong with being biased. NO! All discussions concerning balance of a game not even in beta by casual observers of the game are matters of dire consequence!  DRG said the Widow Mines seemed insanely powerful, since they cost so little and can one shot most 2 supply units. The AOE is neat, but the fact that they can one shot a queen/stalker/marauder/roach is pretty impressive. Honestly, it boggles my mind that anyone would argue that they are not broken. MAYBE if you didn't see the trailer and assumed the attached really really really slowly (and it's quite the opposite really), but even still just the raw data is ridiculous and there would need to be some clear showing of how the stats do not come through in gameplay.
You use cheap units to scout the map and maybe clear mines or you use obs to scout ahead and pay atention to the mini map. The mines are one of the few aditions to the game that might increase skill cap, to all races. It boggles the mind anyone would want the game to be easier, really. I hope they will reduce the detonation time, 10 sec is way to idiot proof.
I've just decided that they didn't show TvP because they realized that the Warhound is a boring unit. We will have to wait to see the next battle report until they decide how to buff Tanks.
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no PvT battle report.
Blizz , I am dissapoint.
the units look OP as fuck , but well , when i saw in broodwar a unit that was permanently cloaked and did insane damage i thought the same...
waiting eagerly for the beta!
On June 12 2012 04:04 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I hope they will reduce the detonation time, 10 sec is way to idiot proof.
I think if they took away that giant overlay that looks stupid and put a tiny light on the unit (red and blinking light, blinks faster before detonation) it would also look better and be harder to detect.
Agreed that 10 seconds is too idiot proof but now the damage is also silly , i hope they play around with it.
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On June 12 2012 04:04 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 03:23 whateversclever wrote:On June 12 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 02:45 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 11 2012 18:29 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:03 Sapphire.lux wrote:
whateversclever, the Protoss stuff is ok or not so good while the T and Z stuff is BS and op, right? :p >_< Do people even read, or do they just go by they just make stuff up? The ONLY unit I said was overpowered was widow mine. Warhound, I noted was really strong, but manageable. (suggested no nerf) Swarm Lord, I noted was really strong, and suggested it be changed due to overlap (aside from a level of novelty, it's basically a ranged unit). But did not say was overpowered. Viper, I actually said was underpowered. Tempest I said was underpowered. Oracle I said was just right. Mothership Core, I said was really strong and suggested a nerf. I did read your post, that's how i came to the conclusion that it's funny. Don't get worked up for it though, i'm just teasing you. Nothing wrong with being biased. NO! All discussions concerning balance of a game not even in beta by casual observers of the game are matters of dire consequence! DRG said the Widow Mines seemed insanely powerful, since they cost so little and can one shot most 2 supply units. The AOE is neat, but the fact that they can one shot a queen/stalker/marauder/roach is pretty impressive. Honestly, it boggles my mind that anyone would argue that they are not broken. MAYBE if you didn't see the trailer and assumed the attached really really really slowly (and it's quite the opposite really), but even still just the raw data is ridiculous and there would need to be some clear showing of how the stats do not come through in gameplay. You use cheap units to scout the map and maybe clear mines or you use obs to scout ahead and pay atention to the mini map. The mines are one of the few aditions to the game that might increase skill cap, to all races. It boggles the mind anyone would want the game to be easier, really. I hope they will reduce the detonation time, 10 sec is way to idiot proof. I've just decided that they didn't show TvP because they realized that the Warhound is a boring unit. We will have to wait to see the next battle report until they decide how to buff Tanks.
Cheap auto-attacking 200 damage AOE nukes increases the skill level? LOL. Okay, I'm checking out of this specific topic of conversation.
And yes, Warhound IS a boring unit. That I 100% agree with you on.
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On June 12 2012 04:02 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 03:55 Bagi wrote:On June 12 2012 03:44 Decendos wrote:
best thing they could do with the mines is do let them explode after 2-3 seconds BUT make them do less damage and even more important make them 10 hp or so.
that way you couldnt kill a BL/infestor army etc. with 20-30 offensive mines BUT give terran a great defensive and space control tool since runbys etc. can be denied.
mines should be good defensive and not offensive. The kind of mines you describe would have to come from the hellion or some other unit, like spider mines really. However as long as mines are standalone units that take away both resources and production time, they need to pack more punch than that. I actually really like the idea of the terran swarming the opponent with his army and a small group of mines at the same time. That forces a ton of micro from the other player as he needs to decide whether he wants to run or FF the mines, and if any mines land he needs to start splitting his army fast. This game needs more high-micro situations like that. BL/infestor armies need more counters anyway. Seriously, I'd be happy if we never saw the comp again in HOTS. how does moving 30 mines in a T/P/Z army, burrow it and have a free win force micro? nobody can split 30 units in 10 sec. the mine should be like a spidermine like thing. BUT you can move it so it has an advantage over spidermines AND it shoots air. so its a lot better than a spidermine and still not expensive at all. i really like the idea of the widow mine, everything else can and will be patched.
Well, they still only have 50 health which makes them vulnerable to all kinds of splash/CC: fungals, storms, FFs and stuff like that. The burrow isn't instant either, I think its 3 seconds which is plenty of time to move away or focus fire some of the mines down.
Just treat them like a more expensive baneling. Nobody autowins when they get 30 banes because people have learned how to micro and kill them. Expect the same to happen with mines.
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On June 12 2012 04:04 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 03:23 whateversclever wrote:On June 12 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 02:45 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 11 2012 18:29 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:03 Sapphire.lux wrote:
whateversclever, the Protoss stuff is ok or not so good while the T and Z stuff is BS and op, right? :p >_< Do people even read, or do they just go by they just make stuff up? The ONLY unit I said was overpowered was widow mine. Warhound, I noted was really strong, but manageable. (suggested no nerf) Swarm Lord, I noted was really strong, and suggested it be changed due to overlap (aside from a level of novelty, it's basically a ranged unit). But did not say was overpowered. Viper, I actually said was underpowered. Tempest I said was underpowered. Oracle I said was just right. Mothership Core, I said was really strong and suggested a nerf. I did read your post, that's how i came to the conclusion that it's funny. Don't get worked up for it though, i'm just teasing you. Nothing wrong with being biased. NO! All discussions concerning balance of a game not even in beta by casual observers of the game are matters of dire consequence! DRG said the Widow Mines seemed insanely powerful, since they cost so little and can one shot most 2 supply units. The AOE is neat, but the fact that they can one shot a queen/stalker/marauder/roach is pretty impressive. Honestly, it boggles my mind that anyone would argue that they are not broken. MAYBE if you didn't see the trailer and assumed the attached really really really slowly (and it's quite the opposite really), but even still just the raw data is ridiculous and there would need to be some clear showing of how the stats do not come through in gameplay. You use cheap units to scout the map and maybe clear mines or you use obs to scout ahead and pay atention to the mini map. The mines are one of the few aditions to the game that might increase skill cap, to all races. It boggles the mind anyone would want the game to be easier, really. I hope they will reduce the detonation time, 10 sec is way to idiot proof. I've just decided that they didn't show TvP because they realized that the Warhound is a boring unit. We will have to wait to see the next battle report until they decide how to buff Tanks.
Completely agree - the widow mine is one of the few units that will bring back skill into BATTLES. Mind you I'm not saying SC2 requires no skill. But battles are mostly just about position, stutter-step and splitting. Mines were and are awsome because they add a completely, like 100% different element to battles. Both players can use skill - one to maximize, the other to minimize damage. Which is exactly what SC2 needs right now.
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Warhound is essentially a factory-version of marauder. Blizzard obviously has no new idea for viable mech T against P. (and honestly I have no creative idea for that, either.)
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On June 12 2012 04:08 whateversclever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:04 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 12 2012 03:23 whateversclever wrote:On June 12 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 02:45 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 11 2012 18:29 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:03 Sapphire.lux wrote:
whateversclever, the Protoss stuff is ok or not so good while the T and Z stuff is BS and op, right? :p >_< Do people even read, or do they just go by they just make stuff up? The ONLY unit I said was overpowered was widow mine. Warhound, I noted was really strong, but manageable. (suggested no nerf) Swarm Lord, I noted was really strong, and suggested it be changed due to overlap (aside from a level of novelty, it's basically a ranged unit). But did not say was overpowered. Viper, I actually said was underpowered. Tempest I said was underpowered. Oracle I said was just right. Mothership Core, I said was really strong and suggested a nerf. I did read your post, that's how i came to the conclusion that it's funny. Don't get worked up for it though, i'm just teasing you. Nothing wrong with being biased. NO! All discussions concerning balance of a game not even in beta by casual observers of the game are matters of dire consequence! DRG said the Widow Mines seemed insanely powerful, since they cost so little and can one shot most 2 supply units. The AOE is neat, but the fact that they can one shot a queen/stalker/marauder/roach is pretty impressive. Honestly, it boggles my mind that anyone would argue that they are not broken. MAYBE if you didn't see the trailer and assumed the attached really really really slowly (and it's quite the opposite really), but even still just the raw data is ridiculous and there would need to be some clear showing of how the stats do not come through in gameplay. You use cheap units to scout the map and maybe clear mines or you use obs to scout ahead and pay atention to the mini map. The mines are one of the few aditions to the game that might increase skill cap, to all races. It boggles the mind anyone would want the game to be easier, really. I hope they will reduce the detonation time, 10 sec is way to idiot proof. I've just decided that they didn't show TvP because they realized that the Warhound is a boring unit. We will have to wait to see the next battle report until they decide how to buff Tanks. Cheap auto-attacking 200 damage AOE nukes increases the skill level? LOL. Okay, I'm checking out of this specific topic of conversation. And yes, Warhound IS a boring unit. That I 100% agree with you on.
Spider mines were 125 AOE nuke, and you got 3 of them from a 75 mineral unit.
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Does anyone know if the overseer's contaminate can affect the mothership core? If so, I can imagine a protoss doing a small push to apply pressure intending to recall out. But then the overseer flies in, contaminates, and lets the zerg army crush the protoss one. :D
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widow mines may bring back alot of cool battles, It looks like in HOTS they want more micro and battles to be less longer with multiple lower supply armies battling it out. I think it will really be cool if they can pull off a more positional micro based game with less of the deathball effect.
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it seems weird to build those widow mines directly from the factory. seems weird
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On June 12 2012 04:09 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:02 Decendos wrote:On June 12 2012 03:55 Bagi wrote:On June 12 2012 03:44 Decendos wrote:
best thing they could do with the mines is do let them explode after 2-3 seconds BUT make them do less damage and even more important make them 10 hp or so.
that way you couldnt kill a BL/infestor army etc. with 20-30 offensive mines BUT give terran a great defensive and space control tool since runbys etc. can be denied.
mines should be good defensive and not offensive. The kind of mines you describe would have to come from the hellion or some other unit, like spider mines really. However as long as mines are standalone units that take away both resources and production time, they need to pack more punch than that. I actually really like the idea of the terran swarming the opponent with his army and a small group of mines at the same time. That forces a ton of micro from the other player as he needs to decide whether he wants to run or FF the mines, and if any mines land he needs to start splitting his army fast. This game needs more high-micro situations like that. BL/infestor armies need more counters anyway. Seriously, I'd be happy if we never saw the comp again in HOTS. how does moving 30 mines in a T/P/Z army, burrow it and have a free win force micro? nobody can split 30 units in 10 sec. the mine should be like a spidermine like thing. BUT you can move it so it has an advantage over spidermines AND it shoots air. so its a lot better than a spidermine and still not expensive at all. i really like the idea of the widow mine, everything else can and will be patched. Well, they still only have 50 health which makes them vulnerable to all kinds of splash/CC: fungals, storms, FFs and stuff like that. The burrow isn't instant either, I think its 3 seconds which is plenty of time to move away or focus fire some of the mines down. Just treat them like a more expensive baneling. Nobody autowins when they get 30 banes because people have learned how to micro and kill them. Expect the same to happen with mines.
well yeah we will see. there are just some occasions like a huge mech army or BL/infestor army that are slow and you just cant micro that fast. i just dont want another archon-toilet-like thing where one misstep kills a 200 supply army in one blast. therefore i hope blizzard makes them a defensive mine (aka low hp, fast detonate).
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On June 12 2012 04:08 whateversclever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:04 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 12 2012 03:23 whateversclever wrote:On June 12 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 02:45 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 11 2012 18:29 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:03 Sapphire.lux wrote:
whateversclever, the Protoss stuff is ok or not so good while the T and Z stuff is BS and op, right? :p >_< Do people even read, or do they just go by they just make stuff up? The ONLY unit I said was overpowered was widow mine. Warhound, I noted was really strong, but manageable. (suggested no nerf) Swarm Lord, I noted was really strong, and suggested it be changed due to overlap (aside from a level of novelty, it's basically a ranged unit). But did not say was overpowered. Viper, I actually said was underpowered. Tempest I said was underpowered. Oracle I said was just right. Mothership Core, I said was really strong and suggested a nerf. I did read your post, that's how i came to the conclusion that it's funny. Don't get worked up for it though, i'm just teasing you. Nothing wrong with being biased. NO! All discussions concerning balance of a game not even in beta by casual observers of the game are matters of dire consequence! DRG said the Widow Mines seemed insanely powerful, since they cost so little and can one shot most 2 supply units. The AOE is neat, but the fact that they can one shot a queen/stalker/marauder/roach is pretty impressive. Honestly, it boggles my mind that anyone would argue that they are not broken. MAYBE if you didn't see the trailer and assumed the attached really really really slowly (and it's quite the opposite really), but even still just the raw data is ridiculous and there would need to be some clear showing of how the stats do not come through in gameplay. You use cheap units to scout the map and maybe clear mines or you use obs to scout ahead and pay atention to the mini map. The mines are one of the few aditions to the game that might increase skill cap, to all races. It boggles the mind anyone would want the game to be easier, really. I hope they will reduce the detonation time, 10 sec is way to idiot proof. I've just decided that they didn't show TvP because they realized that the Warhound is a boring unit. We will have to wait to see the next battle report until they decide how to buff Tanks. Cheap auto-attacking 200 damage AOE nukes increases the skill level? LOL. Okay, I'm checking out of this specific topic of conversation.
You are looking at what they can do in the best case scenario. It's like looking at a max bio army and say that because of marauder conc s, Protoss would never be able to touch the Terran army. Turns out no one has perfect stuter step micro and Zealots are borderline op, even though they are mele.
Mines, from what we know, wil be unique as far as attacking units go. Their effectiveness will range from absolut 0 to super cost efficient. Their effectiveness, is largly influenced by what the opposing player does: How good he is at scouting ahead, if he uses enough detection, if he pays atention to his units (to see the big count down) etc. This increases the skill cap.
And yes, Warhound IS a boring unit. That I 100% agree with you on.
High five!
@Meatloaf yeah, some more discreet warning might go a long way, at least look nicer :p
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: High five!
I haven't seen a single written, thought out defence of the warhound, in fact a lot of the people defending it think that it is still an mobile anti-air replacement for the Thor (an idea that I didn't mind, as long as it kept the aerial splash) but the current form is terrible, and I'd be interested to see why some people thought it was a great addition in the poll thread.
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What is annoying me with the widow mines. Is the "no-explosion" if the units died before the cooldown end. This makes them pretty useless in a frontal fight.
So making them a GREAT addition to early/mid defense and map-control. But can't be used to defend tank/bunkers lines as in BW. So it's allowing mech players to build their strong Mech play without being caught easily out of position, but in the same time your opponent can build his big forces too, with end-game great anti-tank units/Air play.
As Widow mines is only a defensive unit because of that, you're sacrifing mid games pushes for a safer way to build your mech endgame play. So your oppoinent is "free" to build his too.
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Was going to contribute to this thread until I saw people arguing in favor of the widow mine.
A movable spider mine that hits air? That's absolutely ridiculous.
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On June 12 2012 04:51 Flonomenalz wrote:
Was going to contribute to this thread until I saw people arguing in favor of the widow mine.
A movable spider mine that hits air? That's absolutely ridiculous.
I think it's acceptable because it costs gas and supply, while spider mine come from vulture with no supply and gas cost at all.
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On June 12 2012 04:43 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: And yes, Warhound IS a boring unit. That I 100% agree with you on. High five! I haven't seen a single written, thought out defence of the warhound, in fact a lot of the people defending it think that it is still an mobile anti-air replacement for the Thor (an idea that I didn't mind, as long as it kept the aerial splash) but the current form is terrible, and I'd be interested to see why some people thought it was a great addition in the poll thread.
Because its a buffed up Marauder lol. A  's worst nightmare 
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On June 12 2012 04:43 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: And yes, Warhound IS a boring unit. That I 100% agree with you on. High five! I haven't seen a single written, thought out defence of the warhound, in fact a lot of the people defending it think that it is still an mobile anti-air replacement for the Thor (an idea that I didn't mind, as long as it kept the aerial splash) but the current form is terrible, and I'd be interested to see why some people thought it was a great addition in the poll thread.
I've seen a couple of posters saying it's cool bacause it's strong (and easy to use). Looks like some people like it for the same reasons others don't. Probably more interested in potential ladder points then fun gameplay and fun pro games. Sounds harsh and elitistic maybe but that's the impression i've got so far.
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On June 12 2012 04:15 PermaScrub wrote:
Does anyone know if the overseer's contaminate can affect the mothership core? If so, I can imagine a protoss doing a small push to apply pressure intending to recall out. But then the overseer flies in, contaminates, and lets the zerg army crush the protoss one. :D
MS Core isn't a building, it's an immobile unit. So no contaminate.
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lol will somebody read this.
My suggested change to the Oracle.
I would like to know thoughts and get some theory crafting involved around this and soon, the widow mine, which is currently being disputed but I'm at work lol
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EPT
