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On June 11 2012 20:14 Markwerf wrote:
Protoss and Zerg changes look alright.
Mothership core looks fun and let's people re-explore openings which is good fun. Oracle looks ok though I don't like the low risk low reward setup off the unit, it seems hard to stop the harass but the harass will never do huge damage either which is not fun from a spectator point of view. Tempest I like most actually as just a siege unit to break open lines with pathetic dps. I guess you get just 1 or 2 to break open defenses in the lategame.
Oracle early-mid game is more about Cloak Field than Entomb imo. Entomb is more to address an opponent mass expanding against you in the mid-late game.
Tempest could be useful for that, but it is a lot of tech (stargate + beacon + expensive + range upgrade) for something so marginal. I just don't see the opportunity cost working in its favor. I don't really know if there is a good way to make the current vision of the Tempest work, but I am a fan of it as well.
On June 11 2012 20:14 Markwerf wrote:Viper looks awesome though the cloud ability seems too restricted working only on bio, it seems a mirror only ability right now as marines are too quick to stay under the cloud. The pull ability is awesome though and opens up some more tactical play, it seems very hard to balance though. Swarm host looks very lackluster, why couldn't they just add the lurker... Units creating temporary swarms is already in the game with infestors and broodlords.. Plus swarm hosts seem to do nothing against a siege or colossi defense anyway as the swarms die well before they do anything. Ultralisk change is fairly cool and overseer removal is great, that unit was doomed anyway being 0 pop.
I don't think pull will be worth it. See Spawn Broodling and Neural Parasite. These kinds of abilities just generally don't mesh with Zerg. As they are more precision tools, rather than force multipliers (Dark Swarm, Plague for the olden day Defiles and Ensnare, Infested Terrans for Infestors).
Swarm Hosts are the best Zerg unit in my opinion. They do more damage and have more HP per cost almost every other Zerg unit. Not to mention it's apparently "free" tech, since it only requires an Infestation Pit, which is both necessary and good. Not to mention the fact that it's burrowed. The unit basically takes all the advantages of Roaches (HP), Zerglings (swarmming), Hydras (range and DPS), and puts it into one unit.
On June 11 2012 20:14 Markwerf wrote:Terran changes just look horrible though. Battehellion is just some random free upgrade to the hellion that makes it into a dull slow unit. Warhound is even worse as a design: it feels like they want to force mech to work in TvP and TvT without being too strong in TvZ. Thus they made a unit with an extra attack vs mechanical so it's only good in two matchups..
I just don't get why exactly they want to force mech for TvP, is it for historical reasons? It's looking to be extremely dull if it becomes some sort of warhound and immortal infested matchup. The widow mine is cool though.
The development of the hellion overall is just super ugly. They nerf it several times during WoL and then they add a free buff to it in Hots..
Warhound is dumb, but it's also really good. Yes, as is Warhound/Immortal would be the PvT match-up. I don't like it, but moving away from low cost units (Barracks/Warpgates) into higher tech, isn't necessarily a bad thing. Ghost mech is a solid composition. But yes, it is a very heavy handed unit.
Widow mine is ridiculous, and I basically don't think it's worth discussing as I feel it will not last for very long.
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On June 12 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:45 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 11 2012 18:29 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:03 Sapphire.lux wrote:
whateversclever, the Protoss stuff is ok or not so good while the T and Z stuff is BS and op, right? :p >_< Do people even read, or do they just go by they just make stuff up? The ONLY unit I said was overpowered was widow mine. Warhound, I noted was really strong, but manageable. (suggested no nerf) Swarm Lord, I noted was really strong, and suggested it be changed due to overlap (aside from a level of novelty, it's basically a ranged unit). But did not say was overpowered. Viper, I actually said was underpowered. Tempest I said was underpowered. Oracle I said was just right. Mothership Core, I said was really strong and suggested a nerf. I did read your post, that's how i came to the conclusion that it's funny. Don't get worked up for it though, i'm just teasing you. Nothing wrong with being biased. NO! All discussions concerning balance of a game not even in beta by casual observers of the game are matters of dire consequence!  DRG said the Widow Mines seemed insanely powerful, since they cost so little and can one shot most 2 supply units. The AOE is neat, but the fact that they can one shot a queen/stalker/marauder/roach is pretty impressive.
much less roaches and much more mutalisks. I would accept the mines if they would not work vs air, but the way they are designed right now they completely shut down pretty much any air play/harassment hard and cost effective (and you can produce 6 mines/minute out of one reactored factory if i understand correctly, which is like super-fast too given how effective they are)
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Just occurred to me, the Widow Mines are going to be a huge pain in the ass for sending Observers around the map, too. Without a unit around to shoot the mines, if you're not paying attention and drift to close to one, it can detect and kill the Observer. O.o
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On June 12 2012 03:10 usethis2 wrote:
And as I expected: Mass Recall cannot stay in the game without a huge nerf.
So it got the nerf, you can only have one nexus that's recall-capable at a time. And it is on a huge 3-minute cool down. What does this mean?
This means Protoss is going to be even more timing-oriented. P will HAVE TO do a timing attack before 10-minute mark (unless you're an idiot not to capitalize the get-out-of-the-jail-free card) and T/Z will cry imba while P will cry that it has to turtle if the timing fails. (at least for the next 3 minutes)
And there will be a thread "How mass recall has ruined Protoss units" like there was a thread "How warpgates ruined protoss units."
whoops, nvm.
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On June 12 2012 03:16 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
Just occurred to me, the Widow Mines are going to be a huge pain in the ass for sending Observers around the map, too. Without a unit around to shoot the mines, if you're not paying attention and drift to close to one, it can detect and kill the Observer. O.o
Thats the point, punish people who don't pay enought attention, I think the widow mine is a great addition to Terran, but 10 seconds is way to much time, maybe 2-3 seconds, and let hellions be able to plant widow mines instead.
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On June 12 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:45 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 11 2012 18:29 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:03 Sapphire.lux wrote:
whateversclever, the Protoss stuff is ok or not so good while the T and Z stuff is BS and op, right? :p >_< Do people even read, or do they just go by they just make stuff up? The ONLY unit I said was overpowered was widow mine. Warhound, I noted was really strong, but manageable. (suggested no nerf) Swarm Lord, I noted was really strong, and suggested it be changed due to overlap (aside from a level of novelty, it's basically a ranged unit). But did not say was overpowered. Viper, I actually said was underpowered. Tempest I said was underpowered. Oracle I said was just right. Mothership Core, I said was really strong and suggested a nerf. I did read your post, that's how i came to the conclusion that it's funny. Don't get worked up for it though, i'm just teasing you. Nothing wrong with being biased. NO! All discussions concerning balance of a game not even in beta by casual observers of the game are matters of dire consequence! DRG said the Widow Mines seemed insanely powerful, since they cost so little and can one shot most 2 supply units. The AOE is neat, but the fact that they can one shot a queen/stalker/marauder/roach is pretty impressive.
Honestly, it boggles my mind that anyone would argue that they are not broken. MAYBE if you didn't see the trailer and assumed the attached really really really slowly (and it's quite the opposite really), but even still just the raw data is ridiculous and there would need to be some clear showing of how the stats do not come through in gameplay.
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On June 12 2012 03:18 prOpSnuffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 03:16 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
Just occurred to me, the Widow Mines are going to be a huge pain in the ass for sending Observers around the map, too. Without a unit around to shoot the mines, if you're not paying attention and drift to close to one, it can detect and kill the Observer. O.o That the point, punish people who don't pay enought attention, I think the widow mine is a great addition to Terran, but 10 seconds is way to much time, maybe 2-3 seconds, and let battle hellions be able to plant widow mines instead.
What about making Widow Mines a factory tech upgrade for reapers, and then pay for the mines through the unit like the carrier's interceptors?
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Really like the changes so far. A couple things that should be adressed imo. Abduct and entomb both do too much for the little micro to use them. Entomb should perhaps target 1-3 minerals with lowered energy cost, maybe more HP on the shields? No idea how to balance abduct though, it's kinda great in the sense that it's "OP" the way BW spells are. Don't want it removed just balanced somehow.
Widow mine is great, one of the few spells that counters deathballs, maybe should lower arm time to ~6 seconds or something. Does anyone know if they do friendly fire? I hope they do..would make up for some great things, just like mines in BW.
And also it feels like blizzard is trying to 'patch' holes in various strategies/difficulties races have. It looks like they want mech to be more viable, and that's bad because people(pros) should make a certain strategy viable, not blizzard. It's like they want the game to be played the way they see it. Too much focus on mech imo.
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everybody who says 10 sec is too much: if its lower you cant micro 20 units out of your army if terra just burrows 20 mines in your army. the mines itself are cost effective vs ONE unit but with 20 mines you just kill a whole army...with your 20 mines = 20 supply and really small amount of minerals. so yeah, mines as a lot of other things are OP as fuck right now, but since this is only alpha...who cares
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On June 09 2012 06:26 herbie wrote:
I personally have issues with the window mine. It will not be in any way as useful in professional play as the spider mine was. people will use detection and just kill them, and even if they do get attached its so easy to remove the unit and avoid AOE anyway. I just don't understand why you would make such a potentially worthless unit, I could understand if it was a units ability, but a unit itself, it just seems useless.
Pretty much so. At its current form I think they're only useful for base defense against raids. Once people learns what it is, it'll be treated like a creep tumor. Just have a detector with your army and they will be auto-targeted and maybe T will learn how tedious creep spreading can be. :D
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On June 12 2012 03:27 Andr3 wrote:
Really like the changes so far. A couple things that should be adressed imo. Abduct and entomb both do too much for the little micro to use them. Entomb should perhaps target 1-3 minerals with lowered energy cost, maybe more HP on the shields? No idea how to balance abduct though, it's kinda great in the sense that it's "OP" the way BW spells are. Don't want it removed just balanced somehow.
I would actually prefer a rebalanced entomb that was one mineral patch per cast. It allows for much interesting reactions, since you never know the extent the Oracle will entomb your patches. But I consider this a buff, which I don't htink the unit needs.
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On June 12 2012 03:23 whateversclever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 02:45 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 11 2012 18:29 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:03 Sapphire.lux wrote:
whateversclever, the Protoss stuff is ok or not so good while the T and Z stuff is BS and op, right? :p >_< Do people even read, or do they just go by they just make stuff up? The ONLY unit I said was overpowered was widow mine. Warhound, I noted was really strong, but manageable. (suggested no nerf) Swarm Lord, I noted was really strong, and suggested it be changed due to overlap (aside from a level of novelty, it's basically a ranged unit). But did not say was overpowered. Viper, I actually said was underpowered. Tempest I said was underpowered. Oracle I said was just right. Mothership Core, I said was really strong and suggested a nerf. I did read your post, that's how i came to the conclusion that it's funny. Don't get worked up for it though, i'm just teasing you. Nothing wrong with being biased. NO! All discussions concerning balance of a game not even in beta by casual observers of the game are matters of dire consequence! DRG said the Widow Mines seemed insanely powerful, since they cost so little and can one shot most 2 supply units. The AOE is neat, but the fact that they can one shot a queen/stalker/marauder/roach is pretty impressive. Honestly, it boggles my mind that anyone would argue that they are not broken. MAYBE if you didn't see the trailer and assumed the attached really really really slowly (and it's quite the opposite really), but even still just the raw data is ridiculous and there would need to be some clear showing of how the stats do not come through in gameplay.
I think you guys arguing that mines are obviously imbalanced are focusing too much on their maximum potential. Yes, their ability to one-shot a Queen is sick, but if you make a pack of Zerglings and run them around the map letting mines take them out you're forcing horrible inefficient trades. They're like Banelings, except that there's no way to control what they explode on.
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best thing they could do with the mines is do let them explode after 2-3 seconds BUT make them do less damage and even more important make them 10 hp or so.
that way you couldnt kill a BL/infestor army etc. with 20-30 offensive mines BUT give terran a great defensive and space control tool since runbys etc. can be denied.
mines should be good defensive and not offensive.
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On June 12 2012 03:10 usethis2 wrote:
And as I expected: Mass Recall cannot stay in the game without a huge nerf.
So it got the nerf, you can only have one nexus that's recall-capable at a time. And it is on a huge 3-minute cool down. What does this mean?
This means Protoss is going to be even more timing-oriented. P will HAVE TO do a timing attack before 10-minute mark (unless you're an idiot not to capitalize the get-out-of-the-jail-free card) and T/Z will cry imba while P will cry that it has to turtle if the timing fails. (at least for the next 3 minutes)
And there will be a thread "How mass recall has ruined Protoss units" like there was a thread "How warpgates ruined protoss units."
I disagree - everything you said will eventually be calculated in and form a new metagame. Right now, especially PvZ is screwed up beyond limits. Every game zerg can macro up 3 bases completely, like 100% uncontested. The queen-buff certainly didn't help the already limited potential of early attacks.
Personally, I cannot wait to use early gateway attacks vs zerg again and recall my stuff out once zerg has produced units. This way you can FINALLY stop the neverending wave of dronesdronesdrones. After some time protoss won't have to do the timing any more because zerg will have adapted. Then the game will get much more tense because both sides will be able to - potentially! - move out and do damage. But they don't necessarily have to.
Right now, there's just no way to safely leave your base with sentries/immortals unless you plan to do an all-in. This is severely screwed up and the recall has the potential to fix it. For me, this is definitely the thing I look forward to the most.
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On June 09 2012 06:29 Infernal_dream wrote:
LET THE THEORY CRAFTING BEGIN. Seriously even in the fuckin video it says shit isn't balanced yet everyone is already crying about how broken certain things are? It's just to show that they are indeed working on the game. Don't start streaming tears until at least beta.
Agree but there are certain things we can discuss. Tempest 22 range no one worries or whines seriously because everyone knows that's not gonna happen. But I see Blizzard keep trying to make Protoss a WC3 race with all the cutesy spells and invisibility, auto-targetting, scroll of town portal, etc. and I don't like that direction.
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On June 12 2012 03:44 Decendos wrote:
best thing they could do with the mines is do let them explode after 2-3 seconds BUT make them do less damage and even more important make them 10 hp or so.
that way you couldnt kill a BL/infestor army etc. with 20-30 offensive mines BUT give terran a great defensive and space control tool since runbys etc. can be denied.
mines should be good defensive and not offensive.
The kind of mines you describe would have to come from the hellion or some other unit, like spider mines really.
However as long as mines are standalone units that take away both resources and production time, they need to pack more punch than that. I actually really like the idea of the terran swarming the opponent with his army and a small group of mines at the same time. That forces a ton of micro from the other player as he needs to decide whether he wants to run or FF the mines, and if any mines land he needs to start splitting his army fast. This game needs more high-micro situations like that.
BL/infestor armies need more counters anyway. Seriously, I'd be happy if we never saw the comp again in HOTS.
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On June 12 2012 03:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 03:23 whateversclever wrote:On June 12 2012 02:53 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 02:45 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:40 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 11 2012 18:29 whateversclever wrote:On June 11 2012 18:03 Sapphire.lux wrote:
whateversclever, the Protoss stuff is ok or not so good while the T and Z stuff is BS and op, right? :p >_< Do people even read, or do they just go by they just make stuff up? The ONLY unit I said was overpowered was widow mine. Warhound, I noted was really strong, but manageable. (suggested no nerf) Swarm Lord, I noted was really strong, and suggested it be changed due to overlap (aside from a level of novelty, it's basically a ranged unit). But did not say was overpowered. Viper, I actually said was underpowered. Tempest I said was underpowered. Oracle I said was just right. Mothership Core, I said was really strong and suggested a nerf. I did read your post, that's how i came to the conclusion that it's funny. Don't get worked up for it though, i'm just teasing you. Nothing wrong with being biased. NO! All discussions concerning balance of a game not even in beta by casual observers of the game are matters of dire consequence! DRG said the Widow Mines seemed insanely powerful, since they cost so little and can one shot most 2 supply units. The AOE is neat, but the fact that they can one shot a queen/stalker/marauder/roach is pretty impressive. Honestly, it boggles my mind that anyone would argue that they are not broken. MAYBE if you didn't see the trailer and assumed the attached really really really slowly (and it's quite the opposite really), but even still just the raw data is ridiculous and there would need to be some clear showing of how the stats do not come through in gameplay. I think you guys arguing that mines are obviously imbalanced are focusing too much on their maximum potential. Yes, their ability to one-shot a Queen is sick, but if you make a pack of Zerglings and run them around the map letting mines take them out you're forcing horrible inefficient trades. They're like Banelings, except that there's no way to control what they explode on.
Why am I mining random parts of the map? You control what they explode on by controling the engagement. And yes, we assume maximum potential. Why would we assume people not using the ability to it's fullest? The worst you can show is it's not good against Marines and Zerglings (which is debatable, since the AOE means that they have a chance to recoup their cost in numbers rather than just single units). There are plenty of units that are not good against Marines and Zerglings. Does being poor against two units change anything?
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anyone think they gonna change the design on the widow mine?
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On June 12 2012 03:57 deathabene wrote:
anyone think they gonna change the design on the widow mine?
Yes most likely.
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On June 12 2012 03:55 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 03:44 Decendos wrote:
best thing they could do with the mines is do let them explode after 2-3 seconds BUT make them do less damage and even more important make them 10 hp or so.
that way you couldnt kill a BL/infestor army etc. with 20-30 offensive mines BUT give terran a great defensive and space control tool since runbys etc. can be denied.
mines should be good defensive and not offensive. The kind of mines you describe would have to come from the hellion or some other unit, like spider mines really. However as long as mines are standalone units that take away both resources and production time, they need to pack more punch than that. I actually really like the idea of the terran swarming the opponent with his army and a small group of mines at the same time. That forces a ton of micro from the other player as he needs to decide whether he wants to run or FF the mines, and if any mines land he needs to start splitting his army fast. This game needs more high-micro situations like that. BL/infestor armies need more counters anyway. Seriously, I'd be happy if we never saw the comp again in HOTS.
how does moving 30 mines in a T/P/Z army, burrow it and have a free win force micro? nobody can split 30 units in 10 sec. the mine should be like a spidermine like thing. BUT you can move it so it has an advantage over spidermines AND it shoots air. so its a lot better than a spidermine and still not expensive at all.
i really like the idea of the widow mine, everything else can and will be patched.
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EPT
