EPTThat was such a stupid game.
I dont understand where they had the idea to just mass the new units are supposed to work in well with already established unit compositions.
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thezanursic
5500 Posts
That was such a stupid game. I dont understand where they had the idea to just mass the new units are supposed to work in well with already established unit compositions. | ||
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thezanursic
5500 Posts
On June 11 2012 21:12 Snowbear wrote: Really great ideas, I wish blizzard would listen to this, but I got no hope for it  No the sad part is that this ideas are blizzards ideas. See BW. I mean BW didnt have a mechanical caster, but Blizzard obviously wants to give us a new unit so thats the only thing I can see working, but yeah if they did the above I would be able to gurantee mech wouldnt only be a viable composition, but also a micro intensive composition without losing the positioning aspects. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On June 11 2012 21:17 thezanursic wrote: That was such a stupid game. I dont understand where they had the idea to just mass the new units are supposed to work in well with already established unit compositions. Battle reports were never intended to show the metagame or be a realistic interpretation of play. They are designed to show off the new units and what they can do. The only reason they made so many vipers for example is because if they made a relaistic number (1-2?) we would only get to see a couple of uses of the spells because of how costly they are. Because he made 6+ we got to see the new abilities multiple times. It's a showcase not a pro match. | ||
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thezanursic
5500 Posts
On June 11 2012 21:13 Existor wrote: Nah, don't change them, but give them as ability to Ravens instead seeker missle And how terrans will deal with mass chargelots? They are already fast, 2.83 is a bit slower, than stalker You have, Raven. - That seems like an okay idea, but I feel like starport tech is a little late in the game to justify it (if you are going double fact) -Widow mines... If we keep the battle hellion it will basicly mean Terran wont gain as much by microing. Why give us a unit that is easily used to kill the zealots if they can give us a different option that is more skill based -Give it new abilities then or as I said a new caster at Factory tech. You are doing two things wrong. The first being you arent taking the skill required to use mech if the changes are made into account and second you are only looking at the final composition if we heavily depend on starport (Both the caster and the widow mine being here) we have to tech to starport and therefor we have less factory units. If you want to mech you need to open with 2 factories 1 with reactor to use the minerals the other with tech lab so you pump out tanks and if you make us get the starport very early we will be unable to use a lot of our minerals or gas. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On June 11 2012 21:28 thezanursic wrote: -Widow mines... If we keep the battle hellion it will basicly mean Terran wont gain as much by microing. Why give us a unit that is easily used to kill the zealots if they can give us a different option that is more skill based hellions in vehicle mode are still very microable, so you get both options, which is good. There will probably end up being an aspect of skill in knowing when to transform the hellions as well. I really wish they came out of the factory in vehicle mode though.. | ||
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kratos-23
303 Posts
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Merikh
United States918 Posts
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thezanursic
5500 Posts
On June 11 2012 21:35 Quotidian wrote: hellions in vehicle mode are still very microable, so you get both options, which is good. There will probably end up being an aspect of skill in knowing when to transform the hellions as well. I really wish they came out of the factory in vehicle mode though.. Soo you want widow mines to remain a supply unit when they could make hellions the ultra ultra positioning and map control unit that doesnt have a big role in the actual engagement. Why does everything have to have a huge role in the engagement. I really really dont understand how my propositions would make the game better. Maybe things would work out the way they are, but this just seems a lot better. I mean what will you be doing slutter with your warhounds and hellions (that mind you will be under the same hotkey). or would you preffer sluttering with your warhound while laying down widows behind your opponents army. Tanks are included in both engagements, but it simply seems as if we basically make it a vulture with a slightly different role early game we add 1 more thing to the to do list when you are engaging. Ohh and tell me which one seems more micro intensive (and thats what we should be aiming for because this is a competitive game) | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On June 11 2012 21:41 thezanursic wrote: Soo you want widow mines to remain a supply unit when they could make hellions the ultra ultra positioning and map control unit that doesnt have a big role in the actual engagement. Why does everything have to have a huge role in the engagement. huh? all I said is that hellions in vehicle mode still are very microable. Maybe I missed some context... But yes, I'd much rather have an extremely supply efficient unit that does a lot of damage, then mines as an ability on some unit because it would inevitably have to be severely nerfed if it came for "free." I like the idea of an extremely deadly mine, because that's what spider mines were in BW, but with Blizzard's current design philosophy you'd never get anything that powerful as an ability in SC2. That's why Seeker Missile was so harshly nerfed in the beta | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
On June 11 2012 21:10 thezanursic wrote: Here are my proposition to prevent mech from becoming an A move composition because that is what is happening with the changes blizzard is making. Now dont take me wrong bio should be a very skill dependant composition if it remains viable (IF) -Nerf widow mines and give them to hellions -Remove battle-mode (Just a stupid A move unit if they basically make Widow mines to be like Spider mines Hellions will have an utility in the Mech composition without lowering skill) -Increase the warhound attack delay and slightly increase their speed (so they can be sluttered without interrupting attacks) -Add a Mechanical caster that is built out of a factory And if you disagree PM me I really, really want to know what kind of reasoning would bring somebody to disagree with this. Some good ideas...now for my own. - Hellions with widow mines are a good idea, as unrevolutionary as that may be. Making mines out of a factory seems disingenuous to me and is basically a waste of production time. Make it cost 25 gas (and # minerals) to lay per mine, and each hellion has a limit of 2 mines that can be laid. Mines cannot trigger on workers, but can still do damage to them. - Give the battle mode transform to the warhound as well, for a t3 research (armory?). Warhound raises shields, taking 25% less damage from melee attacks, and gains the AOE fire attack, benefitting from pre-igniter, but moves more slowly. Obvious benefits are utility against zerg, not only protoss. Can serve as a meat shield for bio. - Rework Raven. It is a shitty, shitty replacement for the vessel. | ||
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Operations
115 Posts
to me it seems like a disgrace to the real spider mines. IMO the battle hellion is completely irrational. why would someone use melee units with siege tanks? can you imagine someone going seige tanks- firebats in BW? about the reapers, lol nice one browder, I actually prefer the bombs. I wouldn't research regen even if my life depended on it. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
On June 11 2012 22:53 Operations wrote: widow mines- basically nerfed spider mines. takes no skill to dodge it at all. to me it seems like a disgrace to the real spider mines. IMO the battle hellion is completely irrational. why would someone use melee units with siege tanks? can you imagine someone going seige tanks- firebats in BW? about the reapers, lol nice one browder, I actually prefer the bombs. I wouldn't research regen even if my life depended on it. there is no point making reapers if queens out-range them and kills them almost instantly. rotfl, i did this when i started BW, was a good composition actually, with medic of course | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Overseer is in. Can throw the changling - they can stick around longer in an army. Easier to hide it in army Want to know more of this :D | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
On June 11 2012 21:10 thezanursic wrote: Here are my proposition to prevent mech from becoming an A move composition because that is what is happening with the changes blizzard is making. Now dont take me wrong bio should be a very skill dependant composition if it remains viable (IF) -Nerf widow mines and give them to hellions -Remove battle-mode (Just a stupid A move unit if they basically make Widow mines to be like Spider mines Hellions will have an utility in the Mech composition without lowering skill) -Increase the warhound attack delay and slightly increase their speed (so they can be sluttered without interrupting attacks) -Add a Mechanical caster that is built out of a factory And if you disagree PM me I really, really want to know what kind of reasoning would bring somebody to disagree with this. send them to blizzard, they are good idea indeed, right now factory's units are all screwed, there something wrong in the factory department... | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
1) they should cost supply or have a time limit. This seems to be one of blizzards design philosophies in SC2 and I agree with it. I don't want the mines to have a time limit, so i think they should have a supply cost. 2) hellions would become a required unit if the mines are useful enough (which they are). When your trying for a mech style this is not an issue, but it feels unintuitive for a bio player to be forced to make a heap of hellions just for the mines. In BW Vultures were then most cost efficient unit in the game and very versatile. Part of this is because of the different countering system in BW (damage type based counters instead of modifier based counters). If hellions are required for mnes then you need to consider both the power of the mines and the hellion. By keeping the mine as a separate production you allow it to be used with a wider variety of play styles. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 11 2012 21:13 Existor wrote: Nah, don't change them, but give them as ability to Ravens instead seeker missle And how terrans will deal with mass chargelots? They are already fast, 2.83 is a bit slower, than stalker You have, Raven. No please, really bad counter ideas. Ravens are slow and suck really really hard (unless the opponent clumps up 10 broodlords). Mines to hellions would be awesome... | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 11 2012 21:10 thezanursic wrote: Here are my proposition to prevent mech from becoming an A move composition because that is what is happening with the changes blizzard is making. Now dont take me wrong bio should be a very skill dependant composition if it remains viable (IF) -Nerf widow mines and give them to hellions -Remove battle-mode (Just a stupid A move unit if they basically make Widow mines to be like Spider mines Hellions will have an utility in the Mech composition without lowering skill) -Increase the warhound attack delay and slightly increase their speed (so they can be sluttered without interrupting attacks) -Add a Mechanical caster that is built out of a factory And if you disagree PM me I really, really want to know what kind of reasoning would bring somebody to disagree with this. 1) On the topic of widow mines, I wouldn't necessarily mind seeing them on hellions, but they would have to be reworked into something that is much less powerful. I personally like the idea of individually built mines, simply because they can make them extremely powerful this way and then just adjust the price of the unit more closely. 2) Battle mode is necessary, simply because how awful regular hellions are against melee units if they are unable to kite them. 3) I don't agree with this one. I guess you are trying to make them units to kite with, but if you do that, they lose the possible synergy they have with tanks. I don't want to see another variation of bio (fast hellions/fast warhounds) kiting around protoss units because they can't fight them head on. What I want is a mech army supported with tanks/mines creating powerful positioning based play and demolishing protoss armies in head-on fights. 4) We don't need new casters, we need our old casters (raven) made relevant again. | ||
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