EPTOn June 11 2012 17:19 SmileZerg wrote:
That's the same speed as Warhounds correct? Pretty nice.
That's the same speed as Warhounds correct? Pretty nice.
y, additional info at sclegacy
HotS MLG Info Updates - Page 124
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Garmer
1286 Posts
y, additional info at sclegacy | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On June 11 2012 17:30 forsooth wrote: I was unaware of the redesign. I haven't kept up with the new ideas at all. As for siege lines, yes, that is what I mean. It's super easy to force the marines back from the tanks with cloud and then kill the tanks practically for free. Mutas remain very valuable late into the game because of this ability. Getting a decent number of Vipers up isn't the easiest thing in the world but with their consume ability, you can defend your base pretty much all day from marine/tank. Yeah after the patch where Blizz introduced the Phoenix range upgrade they changed the Tempests role completely. I guess some people are still under the impression it has splash versus air, but now it's a long range siege sniper as you seem to have discovered.  That's very interesting about the muta play with vipers though. Seems like Terran is going to have to adapt their compositions quite a bit to deal with these things. I expect Widow Mines to see a serious amount of play. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
Thanks, their page is much more accurate than the thread here! | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
Tempests no longer have air splash, do they? TBH I would see them as anti-dropship anti-air snipers. Protoss now can have an easier time defending against drops when they are max'd (and can't warp in units). They really are a niche units, if they don't have air splash. However, I like the addition, because now protoss finally has a zone control unit. Another possible tactic would be to drop into the main of a zerg, snipe the spire, and then set up 2-3 tempests and kill the lair/hive, or any other tech buildings. | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2592 Posts
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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whateversclever
United States197 Posts
HUGE game changer. Teleport - Not much to say. Mass Recall - Very important late game. Honestly, I think the best use of this is not for "harrassment" per se, but just to save expensive units, i.e. Immortals, Collosus, Void Rays, & Tempests. Even just saving one Colossus is huge. Purify - A meh ability. Can be useful when you are in-between Mass Recall or Energize for defense, i.e. you need something more than additional chronoboosts, but you don't have enough energy (or maybe it's not worth it) to mass recall. A rarely useful ability, but nothing wrong with that. Energize - The bread and butter. Not sure how the duration lasts, but even if it was just a 1 to 1 energy transfer, this ability is insane, especially at 25 energy. Super useful with Sentries for defense, and also Oracles for harrass, but it's also great for chronoboosting warpgates for a warp gate push or doing a high templar push (warp them in then energize them to full). Suggestions Overall, it's a great "unit." If I could make changes, I would boost Purify to having a colossi like AOE (since it's pretty weak) and have each ability unlock for a certain tech path (no upgrade cost though). Twilight Council - Unlocks Energize. Stargate - Unlocks Mass Recall Robotics Facility - Unlocks Purify Mothership Cloak - losing it is a non-factor in my opinion Vortex - only working against ground enemies vastly weakens it. you already have plenty of things that can demolish clusters of ground units (storm, colossus), going up to Mothership to vortex them seems pointless (and vulnerable to the same counters of EMP and air-to-air) Stasis - way to expensive to use to protect your colossus (presuming it even could), otherwise, don't really see the point as it just ends up being a more limited vortex. Suggestions I pretty much never want t o trade my Mothership Core for a Mothership. I could throw a lot of ideas out there, but you could take it in so many ways that there really isn't a point. Now, it may still see use, but overall losing Vortex is pretty big (and effectively Mass Recall as well). But, just to throw the idea out there, since Blizzard seems so determined to keep out the Carrier and keep in the Mothership, why not hybridize the Mothership and the Carrier? Just give the Mothership beefed up interceptors. Oracle Actually, liking how this unit is turing out. Preordain - this ability actually looks to be much better than i thought it would be. granting detection is huge, and makes it much more stable than it would be otherwise. it also has uses for scouting and high-ground vision. Entomb - not bad. it'll be interesting to see how it balances out in terms of an efficient answer by the opponent. in the mid-game it seems very high in energy demand though and would require Energize for an effective shut-down. in the late-game however, it really does prove to be a strong answer to mass expands. Cloak Field - Awesomesauce. Obviously, great against Zerg (and answers very nicely the question of twhat if they all-in your Oracle play), While not as useful against Terran, it can still have its moments, especially early. Also a strong play in the mirror. This is where the mid-game harass comes into play, and also begs for Energize. Suggestions Honestly, there isn't much i'd change here (although my Mothership Core weakens this a bit). Cloak and detection were teh two missing pieces to make this unit work in my opinion, addressing detection issues and providing a bit more substantive of a threat for mid-game harassment. Tempest WOW.... such long range... such low damage. 40+ damage at 6 second intervals for a 6 supply unit is not very good. (consider the supply and cost and you'll see) The cost and build time are both reasonable, but I feel like the damage is too low. Honestly, the biggest issue with the Carriers were their extremely long build time. If they built as fast as a tempest, they'd see more play.... but back on point, i actually like the tempest. it does something different. it's kind of awkward, but has a obscene strength alongside some versatility. unfortunately, they fall to the same counter as the colossus does, in vikings and corruptors. this in my mind is the real weakness to the Tempest. the damage could be forgiven, but ultimately, it doesn't do open up anything new or better. it's really difficult to leverage teh ridiculous range since it won't be able to shot past your farthest units vision anyways. Suggestions I'm torn. I want to make this unit work, but i'm not sure how or if that is for the best. Hellion Battle Mode I think it's a fine change. I don't think it'll dramatically change anything though. Upgraded Zealots will still be strong..mostly, has to do with them being so big it's hard to get multiple overlaps with the AoE. Non-point in other match-ups really.. Warhound Very strong in Terran play against mech. Loses strength against Zerg/Protoss, but don't let that fool you. It's beefy and does huge damage. Could see play against Zerg, but likely to see play against Protoss where the advantages are more pronounced. High damage reduces effectiveness of zealot upgrades. Ridiculous DPS is obviously good. High health makes it more resilient to storm and colossi. Probably needs to be nerfed, but can be addressed via Immortals and Void Rays somewhat. Mines So much bs. Swarm Host Retarded good. but manageable. Combined the health and damage of the unit kind of makes the Hydralisk irrelevant. Which is the biggest reason to change it. It just seems to have all the zerg advantages in one... not to any unbalanced (though obviously can use refining) degree, but makes so many things feel irrelevant. Viper Pull (?) forget the name Honestly... it looks dumb. REAL dumb. like remove-from-game-just-for-that-reason dumb. Is it an issue? Not so much in my eyes. Terran still has vikings and ravens that seems reasonable to deal with them. Protoss has Phoenix. The short range just makes it too much risk. Blinding Cloud Not really sure what the point of this skill is to be honest. Bio only? Terran has plenty of Mech options. Protoss doesn't have a bio ranged unit. Which leaves Zerg. I guess this is to combine with Ultras or Broodlords? Isn't that over kill? | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On June 11 2012 17:55 Garmer wrote: i was thinking that they should add a speed-up to the viking, a late game upgrade, terran's air units, are ultra-slow So that they could kite corruptors without getting hit? I can't see that being fair.. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
On June 11 2012 17:38 SmileZerg wrote: Yeah after the patch where Blizz introduced the Phoenix range upgrade they changed the Tempests role completely. I guess some people are still under the impression it has splash versus air, but now it's a long range siege sniper as you seem to have discovered. That's very interesting about the muta play with vipers though. Seems like Terran is going to have to adapt their compositions quite a bit to deal with these things. I expect Widow Mines to see a serious amount of play. NO. No. Mutas will never remain viable in any ZvT with the current design of the widow mine. There will be no muta as long as there is no floating factory in the zerg base | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
Tempests no longer have air splash, do they? TBH I would see them as anti-dropship anti-air snipers. Protoss now can have an easier time defending against drops when they are max'd (and can't warp in units). So we should keep 3 tempests (900/900, 18 supply) in our base to prevent drops? You seem to be forgetting they only do 50 dmg and medivacs have well over 100hp =P. I see no reason at all to use them for defensive purposes, unless that defense entails shooting at siege tanks, swarm hosts, or maybe a few other units like Vipers. Against standard units they seem subpar at best as they have so little DPS (less than that of a stimmed marine at equal upgrades, and i doubt they will have equal upgrades, while costing 300/300 instead of 50/0) so their role is changed to either siege harassment or combat support, picking off units that the standard army cant reach | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
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Broodie
Canada832 Posts
ie: Oracle & Widow mine I'll begin with the Oracle, I love the concept of this unit, it's basically functions a timing negator, but I feel it is too... free *cough* Boring? Not sure if that's the proper word or not, anyways; the way I've seen the unit played and envision it being played, it sits somewhere, casts annoying spells and flies away when danger gets close, any good player will not lose their oracle in it's current form. I also feel it's a tacky unit to add to the starport so I thought of a solution while at work. Bare with me, this is all preference: 1. Move the Oracle to the Robotics Facility and vice versa with the Warp Prism. 2. Redesign the Oracle as a high speed ground unit. To come up with these changes I basically envisioned an entire slew of engagements and how the abilities themselves could be used through the outlet of skill, not hook line and sinker strats of simply sitting somewhere and being annoying (which works, but is fairly un-interesting imo.) I'll give a solid (and interesting) example of how this new Oracle could be used in relation to a current build in WoL: Imagine this with professional players + Show Spoiler + PvZ The solid 3 immortal push: 1 robo 3 gateways into expand Basically a build designed to kill, but if failed has decent fall back opportunity but also has high risks associated. Let's vary the meta-game here and time the assault with an Oracle in the mix, coupled with the Mothership core. so Instead of the third Immortal we now have the 4gate 2 Immo Oracle timing. Once the oracle pops out it can run as a quick map vision scout, and first energy can be dropped on a forward enemy building using the Preordain ability. This allows us to know exactly how to enter a situation. wether the push will work, maybe work, or not. We scout that the push will work but barely, We just want to kill queens and deny some minerals. proxy pylons are set and the push begins just as the Zergs larvae pop giving him adequate defense. but we can't fail 100% so the push continues! Using target fire and good FF's we can dispose of the queens, and deny the mineral lines. All we leave for the zerg are corpses and shielded minerals as we mass recall back to main with minimal losses. The entire reason for adding the Oracle is to negate chances of an effective counter attack through mineral negating while also setting back production. for a perfect timing observers may be skipped, So I imagine a solid counter would be the Swarm Host rush with ling/bane? Another Example of a neat meta-game would be the Oracle/Prism drops. Perhaps a very pro player would drop sentries in the main, run in from the side to negate natural-expo minerals with Oracle, FF in workers and go to town. This way the player in distress would have to react more quickly and Min-walk to the next closest base. I will post my idea for the Widow Mine after I get some sleep and return from work lol Let me know what you think I want to see this unit work with everything else I've invested in, not just a sole harass unit, with this it can be semi support early game. Ps: MS Core needs a little tone down on size or height IMO, blocks mineral lines or battles with it's current model. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Maybe they should put Viper's pull not to be able to pull "Massive" units, like Colossi etc. Every Protoss already has problems with positioning them against Vikings/Corruptors (basically, they never live after a battle), it feels kinda unfair. So, we will have to wait and see, certain things seem a bit overpowered, but the meta-game will certainly change. | ||
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whateversclever
United States197 Posts
On June 11 2012 18:03 Sapphire.lux wrote: whateversclever, the Protoss stuff is ok or not so good while the T and Z stuff is BS and op, right? :p >_< Do people even read, or do they just go by they just make stuff up? The ONLY unit I said was overpowered was widow mine. Warhound, I noted was really strong, but manageable. (suggested no nerf) Swarm Lord, I noted was really strong, and suggested it be changed due to overlap (aside from a level of novelty, it's basically a ranged unit). But did not say was overpowered. Viper, I actually said was underpowered. Tempest I said was underpowered. Oracle I said was just right. Mothership Core, I said was really strong and suggested a nerf. | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
You do realize Tempests aren't even remotely designed to counter mutas anymore? They were completely redesigned from the original version. When they're buffed Phoenixes, there are no reason for another anti-mutalisk unit. Do mass phoenixes and use them to defend tempests. Also tempests can nicely snipe some mutalisks from big distance, while Phoenixes fighting against them Does anyone think of the guardian when they see the protoss unit having 22 range? Stop complain about that range. Tempest has VERY LOW damage -_- And NO splash | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On June 11 2012 18:35 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Does anyone think of the guardian when they see the protoss unit having 22 range? The Broodlord is the new Guardian. Tempests are on another level of crazy entirely. Which is awesome. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 11 2012 18:29 whateversclever wrote: >_< Do people even read, or do they just go by they just make stuff up? The ONLY unit I said was overpowered was widow mine. Warhound, I noted was really strong, but manageable. (suggested no nerf) Swarm Lord, I noted was really strong, and suggested it be changed due to overlap (aside from a level of novelty, it's basically a ranged unit). But did not say was overpowered. Viper, I actually said was underpowered. Tempest I said was underpowered. Oracle I said was just right. Mothership Core, I said was really strong and suggested a nerf. I did read your post, that's how i came to the conclusion that it's funny. Don't get worked up for it though, i'm just teasing you. Nothing wrong with being biased. | ||
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