On June 07 2012 04:33 marcelluspye wrote: I was hoping that they would cancel the OSL with this one and then just make a new league with a different name, to preserve OSL for BW. But whatever.
i wish they did that too >_<
And how should they call it?
OnGameNets Star(not BW) League - OSnBWL? It's OnGameNets League about Starcraft, so not much of a choice in names...
Easy. OnGameNet Starcraft 2 League. I suppose you can still simplify it as OSL, much like GSL (Global Starcraft 2 League).
Of course, Starleague is OGN's flagship league and brand name; there's no way they'd just drop it now. But it'd be nice. It'd be nice if they could do it that much justice and retire it all. The name, the records, the awards, the games, the wall of honor, the legacy. Just start anew.
really? is starcraft 2 that bad that it would bring the brand of OSL down? That feels like a bit of a slap in the face tbh and I personally see no point in it either.
Depends on the perspective.
1. Some people do indeed feel that SCToo being associated with the brand of OSL would be blasphemy to them. After all, OSL was Starleague because of its history as a BW league. Some feel that that would be tainted with the upcoming OSL.
2. Some people feel that in order for SCToo to stand on its own, it cannot continue to "piggyback" on the legacy of BW, which includes the OSL. If SCToo continues to do this, it will never be able to step out of its predecessor's shadow, at least in Korea.
Then those people are pathetic and should never be considered to having an opinion and it makes me sad to see you do, they're not worth listening to unless they're not subjective, notice it's those same people who aren't objective to change.
"Innovation is the ability to see change as an opportunity - not a threat” I guess you people are to arrogant and never seem to realise that broodwar isn't this perfect game that you keep reminiscing and you need to reccognise that however you just seem to be so closed minded and so closed to change which leads me to not giving a fuck of what you say. grow the fuck up.
Also that's not a legitimate answer in my eyes. you're just spewing BS
The problem with your perspective is that when it is not an innovation but a degradation, I should rightfully protest and speak out for that.
And I didn't list all the perspectives. In fact, Kiett has a much more rational perspective than what I listed.
On June 06 2012 21:44 blubbdavid wrote: That picture is the future of LoL
It's already happening! And that's the first major LoL tournament in Korea.
Those chairs look pretty empty to me, they're full near the front, but once you get to the middle and back it's like one person for every two or three chairs.
Still larger than SC2 in Korea.
Guess what? GSL Code S finals were going on at the same time.
Guess which one got more attention.
Edit: Let me give you some statistics about that finals.
1. It got up 2.219% of males aged 19-24. 2. During the final, for almost an hour, it got an average of 1.861% of viewers and was the 2nd most watched program during that time. 3. People started lining up from 7 o'clock in the morning, and almost 8000 people maxed out the stadium. 4. During the finals, ongamenet became one of the most searched words on various Korean portal sites.
I don't think anyone will argue LoL is bigger than SC2 in Korea at the moment, but the Code S finals did have 2,000 people in the arena. It also has 700,000 VoD views on the GOMTV site. That's pretty damn good for a tournament that isn't on television in Korea and is primarily online. Also Squirtle and MVP, if I remember, were one of the most popular searches on a Korean portal site while the finals were going on.
I think this is smart by OGN. By announcing this is the LAST CHAMPION in Brood War history, even if the finals are hyvaa vs. Shine, they'll probably draw a 10,000+ crowd if they decide to go to a big venue. The hype and the legends match beforehand will make it one of the biggest finals they've ever had.
Is that attendance number a sign of growth or stagnation? I am highly leaning towards the latter.
And I doubt that they count only Korean viewers towards the VoD views on their site, so that statistic is unusable.
I got no word of mvp and squirtle being top search terms. If you can provide a source, that would be very helpful.
as long as GomTV lists flash as 2 time winner of GSL then I don't care if OSL lists bw accomplishments for their sc2 league. huehuehue.
Like all people recognise, you can't just list previous OSL achievements if it's an entirely different game. It'd be especially weird as this announcement, to me, is indicating they'll continue seeds for sc2 from tving OSL. And that's stupid.
I think it's pretty neat that this is being opened up to a global tournament. In the positive, this means current BW pros will only be practicing SC2, which means their overall skill level will definitely rise. Conversely, this also means that they will only be playing SC2 and that sucks for BW
On June 07 2012 06:26 N.geNuity wrote: as long as GomTV lists flash as 2 time winner of GSL then I don't care if OSL lists bw accomplishments for their sc2 league. huehuehue.
Like all people recognise, you can't just list previous OSL achievements if it's an entirely different game. It'd be especially weird as this announcement, to me, is indicating they'll continue seeds for sc2 from tving OSL. And that's stupid.
just make a new league. It's not the OSL.
They could just call it OSL2 or something.
I think the OSL is not only a BW-based brand, but also a brand built up around BW. A lot of people put a lot of hardwork to get the name "OSL" to where it is today, it is their right to reap the reward of having such quality associated with their league. Although, I do agree and understand it ought to be explicitly clear that there is a divide with respect to game and player history between OSL with BW and OSL with SC2.
Although, especially for english casts, it would be good to include or reference player BW history in order to develop a kind of primer story line for new viewers to sort of build on as well as appreciate where they came from. I think a complete segregation of BW from SC2 is bad though.
On June 06 2012 21:44 blubbdavid wrote: That picture is the future of LoL
It's already happening! And that's the first major LoL tournament in Korea.
Those chairs look pretty empty to me, they're full near the front, but once you get to the middle and back it's like one person for every two or three chairs.
Still larger than SC2 in Korea.
Guess what? GSL Code S finals were going on at the same time.
Guess which one got more attention.
Edit: Let me give you some statistics about that finals.
1. It got up 2.219% of males aged 19-24. 2. During the final, for almost an hour, it got an average of 1.861% of viewers and was the 2nd most watched program during that time. 3. People started lining up from 7 o'clock in the morning, and almost 8000 people maxed out the stadium. 4. During the finals, ongamenet became one of the most searched words on various Korean portal sites.
I don't think anyone will argue LoL is bigger than SC2 in Korea at the moment, but the Code S finals did have 2,000 people in the arena. It also has 700,000 VoD views on the GOMTV site. That's pretty damn good for a tournament that isn't on television in Korea and is primarily online. Also Squirtle and MVP, if I remember, were one of the most popular searches on a Korean portal site while the finals were going on.
I think this is smart by OGN. By announcing this is the LAST CHAMPION in Brood War history, even if the finals are hyvaa vs. Shine, they'll probably draw a 10,000+ crowd if they decide to go to a big venue. The hype and the legends match beforehand will make it one of the biggest finals they've ever had.
Is that attendance number a sign of growth or stagnation? I am highly leaning towards the latter.
And I doubt that they count only Korean viewers towards the VoD views on their site, so that statistic is unusable.
I got no word of mvp and squirtle being top search terms. If you can provide a source, that would be very helpful.
For the second point, no, the count of the VoD views is quite reliable because Gom setup a site specifically for English VoD at GomTv.net. And normally, people who don't have Premium ticket won't be able to watch the Korean VoD if they are not from Korea. So the 700,000 VoD views on the Korean site (since the foreign site has 250k views) would be mostly Korean. If we think of something like 90% Korean, then it would still be 630,000 VoD views.
EDIT: The Korean VoD is also played on GomTV.net site, which even make the incentive to go to the Korean site for foreigners lower.
EDIT 2: I also tried experimenting of whether the VoD can be played from the US, and I could not watch it. Refreshing the page or clicking to open the page from the link also not increase the watch count.
Just because I wanted to do the comparison, the vods for the finals of GomTV Classic Season 2 had 1,526,920 views, and GomTV Classic Season 3 had 1,509,156 views. Season 2 also had a ro8 matchup of Bisu vs Flash that had 2,090,148 views. The MVP vs Squirtle match has 712,477 views as its finals (can still grow with people watching it in the future, etc).
also though, you can see overall league vods for code S season 2 and for the GomTV season 3. I believe season 2 vods for GomTV Intel Classicare buried in later pages of season3 as following the link for it leads to same pages. But you can see the viewership numbers of the overall league, not just the finals (it's actually funny coincidence that MVP was the lowest viewercount for GomTV classic season 3 ro16 with 198,905). Big names like jaedong even grab like 500,000 in ro32 vs no names but overal ro16s is like ~300,000-~500,000 (depending on players) for the bw and ~180,000-~250,000 for ro8/ro4 sc2 (with one ro4 match being higher at 340,000).
Note those comparisons are out of date for brood war--as it may not be as popular now, and I think it's actually positive outlook for sc2 in korea that it still can grow some, but GomTV is still consistently pulling in ~1/2 the koreans than they did for bw. And this is exclusively comparing GomTV leagues with GomTV leagues.
On June 07 2012 07:39 sapht wrote: Did any of the korean fans really want this? Do they watch the SC2 matches in the current PL? I only do if I really care about one team or the other.
This death may be much thanks to Blizzard's IP claim, not wishes from fans, I suspect...
Im sure the legal troubles were a major factor, but even without them SC in general was waning in interest over there in relation to other free to play games like LoL. Choosing SC2, I suspect, was also done in order to captialize on the SC infrastructure and experience they already have with BW in hope of making a strong transition in light of foreign interest. They are also supporting LoL, but it would probably have been a more rocky change if they just jumped to a completely new title where they had little to no experience (or history) with regards to broadcasting and organizing it.
I am sure Blizzard likely greased the wheels with some kind of support of subsidy to make sure things run smoothly, but I think the whole "Blizzard made them do this against their will" thing is more of a emotional knee-jerk response to current events and gross simplification of the current business environment for them over there.
Of course I don't live in Korea, so someone more informed could correct me if I am wrong.
On June 06 2012 21:44 blubbdavid wrote: That picture is the future of LoL
It's already happening! And that's the first major LoL tournament in Korea.
Those chairs look pretty empty to me, they're full near the front, but once you get to the middle and back it's like one person for every two or three chairs.
Still larger than SC2 in Korea.
Guess what? GSL Code S finals were going on at the same time.
Guess which one got more attention.
Edit: Let me give you some statistics about that finals.
1. It got up 2.219% of males aged 19-24. 2. During the final, for almost an hour, it got an average of 1.861% of viewers and was the 2nd most watched program during that time. 3. People started lining up from 7 o'clock in the morning, and almost 8000 people maxed out the stadium. 4. During the finals, ongamenet became one of the most searched words on various Korean portal sites.
I don't think anyone will argue LoL is bigger than SC2 in Korea at the moment, but the Code S finals did have 2,000 people in the arena. It also has 700,000 VoD views on the GOMTV site. That's pretty damn good for a tournament that isn't on television in Korea and is primarily online. Also Squirtle and MVP, if I remember, were one of the most popular searches on a Korean portal site while the finals were going on.
I think this is smart by OGN. By announcing this is the LAST CHAMPION in Brood War history, even if the finals are hyvaa vs. Shine, they'll probably draw a 10,000+ crowd if they decide to go to a big venue. The hype and the legends match beforehand will make it one of the biggest finals they've ever had.
Is that attendance number a sign of growth or stagnation? I am highly leaning towards the latter.
And I doubt that they count only Korean viewers towards the VoD views on their site, so that statistic is unusable.
I got no word of mvp and squirtle being top search terms. If you can provide a source, that would be very helpful.
For the second point, no, the count of the VoD views is quite reliable because Gom setup a site specifically for English VoD at GomTv.net. And normally, people who don't have Premium ticket won't be able to watch the Korean VoD if they are not from Korea. So the 700,000 VoD views on the Korean site (since the foreign site has 250k views) would be mostly Korean. If we think of something like 90% Korean, then it would still be 630,000 VoD views.
EDIT: The Korean VoD is also played on GomTV.net site, which even make the incentive to go to the Korean site for foreigners lower.
EDIT 2: I also tried experimenting of whether the VoD can be played from the US, and I could not watch it. Refreshing the page or clicking to open the page from the link also not increase the watch count.
Just because I wanted to do the comparison, the vods for the finals of GomTV Classic Season 2 had 1,526,920 views, and GomTV Classic Season 3 had 1,509,156 views. Season 2 also had a ro8 matchup of Bisu vs Flash that had 2,090,148 views. The MVP vs Squirtle match has 712,477 views as its finals (can still grow with people watching it in the future, etc).
also though, you can see overall league vods for code S season 2 and for the GomTV season 3. I believe season 2 vods for GomTV Intel Classicare buried in later pages of season3 as following the link for it leads to same pages. But you can see the viewership numbers of the overall league, not just the finals (it's actually funny coincidence that MVP was the lowest viewercount for GomTV classic season 3 ro16 with 198,905). Big names like jaedong even grab like 500,000 in ro32 vs no names but overal ro16s is like ~300,000-~500,000 (depending on players) for the bw and ~180,000-~250,000 for ro8/ro4 sc2 (with one ro4 match being higher at 340,000).
Note those comparisons are out of date for brood war--as it may not be as popular now, and I think it's actually positive outlook for sc2 in korea that it still can grow some, but GomTV is still consistently pulling in ~1/2 the koreans than they did for bw. And this is exclusively comparing GomTV leagues with GomTV leagues.
That's not my point, though. There's no argument that BW is still more popular than SC2 in Korea, and that's not I want to argue with. My point is to prove that the 700k views of the VoD is genuine, unlike what jpak claimed as not reliable.
So yeah, SC2 is not as popular in Korea and that's a fact. Still, to argue that it's not growing at all is also kinda stretching.
On June 06 2012 16:52 Surgical_Strike wrote: according to the ELEPHANT mentality the kespa players should be good enough to make all "original" sc2 players look like a circus act by next season right? Or has that whole group of the community that believed the ELEPHANT talk eaten their words already?
That's just ugly.
I don't think anyone actually thought the BW players would go straight from BW to dominating SC2. Mostly they were jokes, or people saying that they had what it took for them to become big. And we have yet to see.
I'd rather have them play BW for two-three more years. :<
That's what the thread is all about though.
actually, no it isn't. Where have people been saying they'll come to sc2 and dunk on everyone in a week? We know it will take some time, but we also know they will be the absolute best given time.
On June 07 2012 04:33 marcelluspye wrote: I was hoping that they would cancel the OSL with this one and then just make a new league with a different name, to preserve OSL for BW. But whatever.
i wish they did that too >_<
And how should they call it?
OnGameNets Star(not BW) League - OSnBWL? It's OnGameNets League about Starcraft, so not much of a choice in names...
Easy. OnGameNet Starcraft 2 League. I suppose you can still simplify it as OSL, much like GSL (Global Starcraft 2 League).
Of course, Starleague is OGN's flagship league and brand name; there's no way they'd just drop it now. But it'd be nice. It'd be nice if they could do it that much justice and retire it all. The name, the records, the awards, the games, the wall of honor, the legacy. Just start anew.
really? is starcraft 2 that bad that it would bring the brand of OSL down? That feels like a bit of a slap in the face tbh and I personally see no point in it either.
. Depends on the perspective.
1. Some people do indeed feel that SCToo being associated with the brand of OSL would be blasphemy to them. After all, OSL was Starleague because of its history as a BW league. Some feel that that would be tainted with the upcoming OSL.
2. Some people feel that in order for SCToo to stand on its own, it cannot continue to "piggyback" on the legacy of BW, which includes the OSL. If SCToo continues to do this, it will never be able to step out of its predecessor's shadow, at least in Korea.
Why the hell are BW fans saying "SCToo"?
There was on-going joke (for 15minutes) on Flash meme thread, but it was like 1-2 week ago. Kinda one of those random ones.
On June 06 2012 21:44 blubbdavid wrote: That picture is the future of LoL
It's already happening! And that's the first major LoL tournament in Korea.
Those chairs look pretty empty to me, they're full near the front, but once you get to the middle and back it's like one person for every two or three chairs.
Still larger than SC2 in Korea.
Guess what? GSL Code S finals were going on at the same time.
Guess which one got more attention.
Edit: Let me give you some statistics about that finals.
1. It got up 2.219% of males aged 19-24. 2. During the final, for almost an hour, it got an average of 1.861% of viewers and was the 2nd most watched program during that time. 3. People started lining up from 7 o'clock in the morning, and almost 8000 people maxed out the stadium. 4. During the finals, ongamenet became one of the most searched words on various Korean portal sites.
I don't think anyone will argue LoL is bigger than SC2 in Korea at the moment, but the Code S finals did have 2,000 people in the arena. It also has 700,000 VoD views on the GOMTV site. That's pretty damn good for a tournament that isn't on television in Korea and is primarily online. Also Squirtle and MVP, if I remember, were one of the most popular searches on a Korean portal site while the finals were going on.
I think this is smart by OGN. By announcing this is the LAST CHAMPION in Brood War history, even if the finals are hyvaa vs. Shine, they'll probably draw a 10,000+ crowd if they decide to go to a big venue. The hype and the legends match beforehand will make it one of the biggest finals they've ever had.
Is that attendance number a sign of growth or stagnation? I am highly leaning towards the latter.
And I doubt that they count only Korean viewers towards the VoD views on their site, so that statistic is unusable.
I got no word of mvp and squirtle being top search terms. If you can provide a source, that would be very helpful.
For the second point, no, the count of the VoD views is quite reliable because Gom setup a site specifically for English VoD at GomTv.net. And normally, people who don't have Premium ticket won't be able to watch the Korean VoD if they are not from Korea. So the 700,000 VoD views on the Korean site (since the foreign site has 250k views) would be mostly Korean. If we think of something like 90% Korean, then it would still be 630,000 VoD views.
EDIT: The Korean VoD is also played on GomTV.net site, which even make the incentive to go to the Korean site for foreigners lower.
EDIT 2: I also tried experimenting of whether the VoD can be played from the US, and I could not watch it. Refreshing the page or clicking to open the page from the link also not increase the watch count.
Just because I wanted to do the comparison, the vods for the finals of GomTV Classic Season 2 had 1,526,920 views, and GomTV Classic Season 3 had 1,509,156 views. Season 2 also had a ro8 matchup of Bisu vs Flash that had 2,090,148 views. The MVP vs Squirtle match has 712,477 views as its finals (can still grow with people watching it in the future, etc).
also though, you can see overall league vods for code S season 2 and for the GomTV season 3. I believe season 2 vods for GomTV Intel Classicare buried in later pages of season3 as following the link for it leads to same pages. But you can see the viewership numbers of the overall league, not just the finals (it's actually funny coincidence that MVP was the lowest viewercount for GomTV classic season 3 ro16 with 198,905). Big names like jaedong even grab like 500,000 in ro32 vs no names but overal ro16s is like ~300,000-~500,000 (depending on players) for the bw and ~180,000-~250,000 for ro8/ro4 sc2 (with one ro4 match being higher at 340,000).
Note those comparisons are out of date for brood war--as it may not be as popular now, and I think it's actually positive outlook for sc2 in korea that it still can grow some, but GomTV is still consistently pulling in ~1/2 the koreans than they did for bw. And this is exclusively comparing GomTV leagues with GomTV leagues.
Does the Korean site work like the English site where they add up the views on each game for the numbers so you'd have to divide all the finals by 7? (You can tell thats how they do it on the English site by how the views drop in the round of 8 compared to the previous group stages with more games.)
On June 06 2012 21:44 blubbdavid wrote: That picture is the future of LoL
It's already happening! And that's the first major LoL tournament in Korea.
Those chairs look pretty empty to me, they're full near the front, but once you get to the middle and back it's like one person for every two or three chairs.
Still larger than SC2 in Korea.
Guess what? GSL Code S finals were going on at the same time.
Guess which one got more attention.
Edit: Let me give you some statistics about that finals.
1. It got up 2.219% of males aged 19-24. 2. During the final, for almost an hour, it got an average of 1.861% of viewers and was the 2nd most watched program during that time. 3. People started lining up from 7 o'clock in the morning, and almost 8000 people maxed out the stadium. 4. During the finals, ongamenet became one of the most searched words on various Korean portal sites.
I don't think anyone will argue LoL is bigger than SC2 in Korea at the moment, but the Code S finals did have 2,000 people in the arena. It also has 700,000 VoD views on the GOMTV site. That's pretty damn good for a tournament that isn't on television in Korea and is primarily online. Also Squirtle and MVP, if I remember, were one of the most popular searches on a Korean portal site while the finals were going on.
I think this is smart by OGN. By announcing this is the LAST CHAMPION in Brood War history, even if the finals are hyvaa vs. Shine, they'll probably draw a 10,000+ crowd if they decide to go to a big venue. The hype and the legends match beforehand will make it one of the biggest finals they've ever had.
Is that attendance number a sign of growth or stagnation? I am highly leaning towards the latter.
And I doubt that they count only Korean viewers towards the VoD views on their site, so that statistic is unusable.
I got no word of mvp and squirtle being top search terms. If you can provide a source, that would be very helpful.
For the second point, no, the count of the VoD views is quite reliable because Gom setup a site specifically for English VoD at GomTv.net. And normally, people who don't have Premium ticket won't be able to watch the Korean VoD if they are not from Korea. So the 700,000 VoD views on the Korean site (since the foreign site has 250k views) would be mostly Korean. If we think of something like 90% Korean, then it would still be 630,000 VoD views.
EDIT: The Korean VoD is also played on GomTV.net site, which even make the incentive to go to the Korean site for foreigners lower.
EDIT 2: I also tried experimenting of whether the VoD can be played from the US, and I could not watch it. Refreshing the page or clicking to open the page from the link also not increase the watch count.
Just because I wanted to do the comparison, the vods for the finals of GomTV Classic Season 2 had 1,526,920 views, and GomTV Classic Season 3 had 1,509,156 views. Season 2 also had a ro8 matchup of Bisu vs Flash that had 2,090,148 views. The MVP vs Squirtle match has 712,477 views as its finals (can still grow with people watching it in the future, etc).
also though, you can see overall league vods for code S season 2 and for the GomTV season 3. I believe season 2 vods for GomTV Intel Classicare buried in later pages of season3 as following the link for it leads to same pages. But you can see the viewership numbers of the overall league, not just the finals (it's actually funny coincidence that MVP was the lowest viewercount for GomTV classic season 3 ro16 with 198,905). Big names like jaedong even grab like 500,000 in ro32 vs no names but overal ro16s is like ~300,000-~500,000 (depending on players) for the bw and ~180,000-~250,000 for ro8/ro4 sc2 (with one ro4 match being higher at 340,000).
Note those comparisons are out of date for brood war--as it may not be as popular now, and I think it's actually positive outlook for sc2 in korea that it still can grow some, but GomTV is still consistently pulling in ~1/2 the koreans than they did for bw. And this is exclusively comparing GomTV leagues with GomTV leagues.
Does the Korean site work like the English site where they add up the views on each game for the numbers so you'd have to divide all the finals by 7? (You can tell thats how they do it on the English site by how the views drop in the round of 8 compared to the previous group stages with more games.)
The Korean site actually grouped VoDs together by series. So in Ro16, they had separate VoDs for Group D Game 1, Game 2, Winners Match, Losers Match, and Final Match. Semifinals are split in two (two matchups), and the Finals is one VoD series.
There must obviously be some kind of demand for OGN SC2 content don't be dense about it. While Blizzard is indeed a big company that makes a lot of money I doubt they have the kind of money to "bribe" or "bully" KESPA/OGN into broadcasting SC2 instead of BW.
KESPA/OGN are not idiots without business sense, they probably think that as things are now there is more demand for SC2 content than for BW content, so they went for the more commercial potential.
And yeah this was a pure business decisions, as much as we would like to think otherwise KESPA and OGN are just looking out for their interests. Had SC2 been a horrible FLOP worldwide no matter how much "bullying" and "bribing" Blizzard had done this wouldn't have happened.
Not saying that SC2 is to blame, nor Blizzard, nor nobody. Its more like, unfortunately, BW doesn't have as much commercial potential as more modern games.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FOgLP.jpg)
