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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 11:52 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:40 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 11:33 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:28 StarStrider wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295Guys I put a lot of work into this analysis, please take a look at it. The questionable move by Spades at 9:55 is HUGE. The camera does some really strange things too. It is a pretty hefty evidence to be added to the pile of evidences in favor of his guilt, and is very clarifying and reasonable about the issue. Please take the time to review it real quick and tell me your opinion. At least let me know it has been read so I didn't waste my time. You said at 9:55 he peeks into FOW? Hasn't one of the main arguments against Spades is that he never peeks into FOW because the camera lock doesn't allow it? Not sure if I am interpreting your analysis correctly so let me know if I misread what you said, In these replays he very very rarely moves his camera fully into the fog of war. For example, to click on a watch tower, or to scout an enemy base, or to move his army to a hidden position. In his ladder replays he does this ALL THE TIME. In these games he does it less than 10. It does happen a couple times. The case in question he moves his camera slightly downwards where the enemy army is. It is still mostly viewing uncovered map area. This happens often during the replays. The area in question is hiding advancing units that he cannot see. He unsieged his tanks just a second before and immediately sieges them again, BEFORE seeing the army units. This is not standard terran play. His current game knowledge would encourage him to try to advance on the ramp and siege there, or even up the ramp. Instead he sieges to attack the high ground as if he knows what is there. He has a viking available that is already in position to view that high ground, but he has it placed far away so it is only uncovering the very edge of the cliff. Why didn't he put it in a better position? Probably because he can already see the high ground. Well I don't play terran and I'm no way qualified to know what standard terran play is at that level so I won't address that. I was merely addressing the inconsistency between how the hack apparently works and what actually happens. Either the hack auto-locks or camera in place when you look into FOW (hence you can't look into FOW, which is an issue many people have brought up against Spades), or it doesn't. You can't use both 'he peeks into FOW hence it indicates he is hacking' and 'he never peeks into FOW for any reason which is suspicious, hence it is like he's hacking. Either way it seems people are still uncertain about how the hack works, since people say it blocks your camera if you try peek into FOW, yet it lets you peek into FOW if the FOW is very near where your current vision is? I don't know, but we need some consistency.
I can see your confusion based on what has been said in conjecture about how the hack works. The way that I am understanding it, and the way that fits what happens in this replay, is if you move the camera (screen scrolling) from the area you actually do have vision of and into the FOW hidden area, the camera follows your vision. But if you click a FOW area on the minimap where you don't have vision, the camera stays on the visible area you were looking at before you looked at the FOW hidden area.
This explains why he never looks around in FOW. Ever. But yet is able to move around in FOW area from screen scrolling from a vision area. Also it explains why the scans that he does use on FOW areas seem to occur before his screen looks at them. I don't think he is scanning the minimap then looking at what he has scanned, as he never does that in any of his 'control group' ladder games. I think it pops his camera over to where he was already looking through FOW once he has vision of what he was looking at because of the scan. Does that make sense?
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On June 05 2012 17:31 MLG_Wiggin wrote:I didn't want to post anything at all in this thread but... Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:24 Spades wrote:
If you think I'm a hacker, that's your opinion. Be upset about it. If you think I'm not thats fine too. But i don't need to be getting email death threats of people saying they are going to kill me if i come to mlg. I'm sorry this all happened, I'm going to sleep, in time truth will prevail. Regardless of whether or not Spades is hacking, real life death threats are completely unacceptable. Have class, people.
Sadly as long as we're behind the anonymity of the internet, we won't ever be a classy people.
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not going to pretend to know how the hack system works, but what if they show the cursor of the player? would that help with hackers?
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On June 06 2012 11:59 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:25 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:45 insanet wrote:On June 06 2012 10:34 Fyrewolf wrote:On June 06 2012 10:18 starcraft911 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:32 StreetWise wrote:
Reading through this thread I have several questions:
1. Who is the Judge in this matter. People keep saying he is innocent until proven guilty. Who is going to pronounce him innocent or guilty if not the community as a whole?
2. Secondly, its been mentioned that Spades hacked in BW. How was he caught/proven guilty back then and can the same methods be applied? It's called the court of public opinion and it's real. Just ask OJ Simpson about it. If the community deems him guilty his sponsors will probably not like that. Nobody wants to invest in an OJ Simpson spokesman. The method he got caught in bw by was because bw maphacks didnt have the failsafes sc2 ones have. Also when you've been maphacking for over a decade you learn what not to do. I.E. don't stare at proxy buildings out in the middle of nowhere, but with today's hacks you can do that and nobody knows because of the ol' screen lock. Actually it was because of a safety feature that he was caught in BW. The hack would delete selections of enemy units from the replays, to hide selections of units that the player should not have vision of if he were not hacking. However it is so highly unusual that enemy units were never selected ever(which good players did to check upgrades); it was discovered because of a lack of a normal activity, rather than an abundance of suspicious activity. + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=69911Explanation of method When you select units (men/buildings) it is recorded in the replay. However, some map hacks remove the recording of selections on units which are not your own. This happens in any game type (UMS, Melee, etc.) and regardless of the number of players. The reason for this is because previously hackers have been caught by analyzing the replay and finding cases of them clicking on things which they could not see without a map hack. Because selecting an enemy unit is the only way to see things like upgrades, health, build progress, or distinguish buildings that are identical while they build, decent players do this quite often. In a game over 15 minutes, over 99% of the time a good player will have at least one selection of an enemy unit. All of the players in this list have several games played in a row (which are over 15 minutes) and without ever clicking an enemy unit once. While for only one game, there might be a 1% chance of this happening to even a legitimate player, the chance of this happening 5 times in a row is roughly 1 out of 10 billion. People should really read how he got caught in BW, he didnt click any enemy units for 14 entire games, he didnt get caught because MBS or automining or multiple selection, he did got caught because abnormal activity, he was guilty with way less data that what we have. Right now there is a shit ton of abnormal activity, and people still dont believe he hacks lol. i guess you still believe he was innocent in BW. Eh, in BW even his own team investigated into it and reviewed over 150 replays just to be sure over the course of a week. The detection method was probably? more accurate, too. And the entire process wasn't one anonymous tl member posting on a smurf, it was the joint work of many. And it wasn't released prematurely. In all likelihood, his team was either in the process of or would soon be looking into this accusation. I think any clean organization would want to get to the bottom of any accusation of cheating to either defend their player or keep their team in good standing. By leaving his team before any statement from them could be made he saves himself from an internal investigation. There's no way to prove this is the reason for him departing, but I cannot see why someone under investigation would spontaneously leave their team if there wasn't something to hide. I'd also like to add that the identity of the OP is as irrelevant as the accused for anyone trying to find the truth. You don't need to know their identity to realize that something is missing from the show match series that happens in every ladder game. That's quite the statistical anomaly. Far more impressive than the one that got him caught in BW. Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:49 dumrednek wrote:
again, has there been a statement in regards to how his game mechanics completely changed in his series vs lucifron and his ladder replays? Nope.
Actually, there is.
It's some subtle things, he didn't change his hotkeys but it's there, the way he moves his camera feels different.
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On June 06 2012 12:00 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:52 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:40 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 11:33 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:28 StarStrider wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295Guys I put a lot of work into this analysis, please take a look at it. The questionable move by Spades at 9:55 is HUGE. The camera does some really strange things too. It is a pretty hefty evidence to be added to the pile of evidences in favor of his guilt, and is very clarifying and reasonable about the issue. Please take the time to review it real quick and tell me your opinion. At least let me know it has been read so I didn't waste my time. You said at 9:55 he peeks into FOW? Hasn't one of the main arguments against Spades is that he never peeks into FOW because the camera lock doesn't allow it? Not sure if I am interpreting your analysis correctly so let me know if I misread what you said, In these replays he very very rarely moves his camera fully into the fog of war. For example, to click on a watch tower, or to scout an enemy base, or to move his army to a hidden position. In his ladder replays he does this ALL THE TIME. In these games he does it less than 10. It does happen a couple times. The case in question he moves his camera slightly downwards where the enemy army is. It is still mostly viewing uncovered map area. This happens often during the replays. The area in question is hiding advancing units that he cannot see. He unsieged his tanks just a second before and immediately sieges them again, BEFORE seeing the army units. This is not standard terran play. His current game knowledge would encourage him to try to advance on the ramp and siege there, or even up the ramp. Instead he sieges to attack the high ground as if he knows what is there. He has a viking available that is already in position to view that high ground, but he has it placed far away so it is only uncovering the very edge of the cliff. Why didn't he put it in a better position? Probably because he can already see the high ground. Well I don't play terran and I'm no way qualified to know what standard terran play is at that level so I won't address that. I was merely addressing the inconsistency between how the hack apparently works and what actually happens. Either the hack auto-locks or camera in place when you look into FOW (hence you can't look into FOW, which is an issue many people have brought up against Spades), or it doesn't. You can't use both 'he peeks into FOW hence it indicates he is hacking' and 'he never peeks into FOW for any reason which is suspicious, hence it is like he's hacking. Either way it seems people are still uncertain about how the hack works, since people say it blocks your camera if you try peek into FOW, yet it lets you peek into FOW if the FOW is very near where your current vision is? I don't know, but we need some consistency. I can see your confusion based on what has been said in conjecture about how the hack works. The way that I am understanding it, and the way that fits what happens in this replay, is if you move the camera (screen scrolling) from the area you actually do have vision of and into the FOW hidden area, the camera follows your vision. But if you click a FOW area on the minimap where you don't have vision, the camera stays on the visible area you were looking at before you looked at the FOW hidden area. This explains why he never looks around in FOW. Ever. But yet is able to move around in FOW area from screen scrolling from a vision area. Also it explains why the scans that he does use on FOW areas seem to occur before his screen looks at them. I don't think he is scanning the minimap then looking at what he has scanned, as he never does that in any of his 'control group' ladder games. I think it pops his camera over to where he was already looking through FOW once he has vision of what he was looking at because of the scan. Does that make sense?
Yes thanks for clearing that up. Since we don't know exactly how this hack works we can't confirm anything but your explanation does make sense.
Regarding the scan issue, are you referring to the 'magic scan'? Because a caster made a youtube video on this issue (no idea where it is now), debating it, so it is probably worth a look.
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On June 06 2012 12:00 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:52 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:40 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 11:33 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:28 StarStrider wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295Guys I put a lot of work into this analysis, please take a look at it. The questionable move by Spades at 9:55 is HUGE. The camera does some really strange things too. It is a pretty hefty evidence to be added to the pile of evidences in favor of his guilt, and is very clarifying and reasonable about the issue. Please take the time to review it real quick and tell me your opinion. At least let me know it has been read so I didn't waste my time. You said at 9:55 he peeks into FOW? Hasn't one of the main arguments against Spades is that he never peeks into FOW because the camera lock doesn't allow it? Not sure if I am interpreting your analysis correctly so let me know if I misread what you said, In these replays he very very rarely moves his camera fully into the fog of war. For example, to click on a watch tower, or to scout an enemy base, or to move his army to a hidden position. In his ladder replays he does this ALL THE TIME. In these games he does it less than 10. It does happen a couple times. The case in question he moves his camera slightly downwards where the enemy army is. It is still mostly viewing uncovered map area. This happens often during the replays. The area in question is hiding advancing units that he cannot see. He unsieged his tanks just a second before and immediately sieges them again, BEFORE seeing the army units. This is not standard terran play. His current game knowledge would encourage him to try to advance on the ramp and siege there, or even up the ramp. Instead he sieges to attack the high ground as if he knows what is there. He has a viking available that is already in position to view that high ground, but he has it placed far away so it is only uncovering the very edge of the cliff. Why didn't he put it in a better position? Probably because he can already see the high ground. Well I don't play terran and I'm no way qualified to know what standard terran play is at that level so I won't address that. I was merely addressing the inconsistency between how the hack apparently works and what actually happens. Either the hack auto-locks or camera in place when you look into FOW (hence you can't look into FOW, which is an issue many people have brought up against Spades), or it doesn't. You can't use both 'he peeks into FOW hence it indicates he is hacking' and 'he never peeks into FOW for any reason which is suspicious, hence it is like he's hacking. Either way it seems people are still uncertain about how the hack works, since people say it blocks your camera if you try peek into FOW, yet it lets you peek into FOW if the FOW is very near where your current vision is? I don't know, but we need some consistency. I can see your confusion based on what has been said in conjecture about how the hack works. The way that I am understanding it, and the way that fits what happens in this replay, is if you move the camera (screen scrolling) from the area you actually do have vision of and into the FOW hidden area, the camera follows your vision. But if you click a FOW area on the minimap where you don't have vision, the camera stays on the visible area you were looking at before you looked at the FOW hidden area. This explains why he never looks around in FOW. Ever. But yet is able to move around in FOW area from screen scrolling from a vision area. Also it explains why the scans that he does use on FOW areas seem to occur before his screen looks at them. I don't think he is scanning the minimap then looking at what he has scanned, as he never does that in any of his 'control group' ladder games. I think it pops his camera over to where he was already looking through FOW once he has vision of what he was looking at because of the scan. Does that make sense?
He can build a command center in complete fog, 1:16:41, and he can also look in a complete fog of war 1:16:35, and I think you've already seen this. A direct challenge to your understanding of the so-called "hack."
Face it, everyone is speculating how this so-called "hack" works, no one actually knows. Until then, everything is a guess.
http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912
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On June 06 2012 11:33 Zydec wrote:
Unfortunately, as hacking is a big part of the SC2 world at this current time and due to his history in BW, people will look at the fishier and "non-standard" things and think someone is hacking.
Not saying he has or hasn't, haven't looked at the replays and wouldn't honestly know what to look for anyway.
All I will say is, Blizzard needs to come out with some way of detecting this as otherwise the SC2 eSports brand and more importantly the players who do this to pay the bills will be the ones who will take the full force of this.
There is a blizzard anti hack system called Warden, that's active in all blizzard games. It scans your computer regurarly for hacking software.
However it's a steaming pile of dogshit, as there are more than plenty of hackers in all of their games.
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I don't see how anyone can make an argument that he wasn't hacking. It's just not possible to play this game without EVER looking in the fog of war. When you go to scan, you don't do it through the minimap (even though you technically could and this is also just one example, there are many more). If someone wants to make the argument that that is what he was doing, then why doesn't he always play like that? Why only during the showmatches? A lot of this game is about muscle memory, just try to change your hotkey setup or try to start ONLY scanning from the minimap, I absolutely promise you will slip up and make mistakes. This is probably even more true for a pro gamer, someone that plays many hours a day using their very own hotkeys and style repeatedly over and over so that it gets burned into their muscle memory.
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On June 06 2012 12:09 jacksonlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 12:00 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 11:52 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:40 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 11:33 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:28 StarStrider wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295Guys I put a lot of work into this analysis, please take a look at it. The questionable move by Spades at 9:55 is HUGE. The camera does some really strange things too. It is a pretty hefty evidence to be added to the pile of evidences in favor of his guilt, and is very clarifying and reasonable about the issue. Please take the time to review it real quick and tell me your opinion. At least let me know it has been read so I didn't waste my time. You said at 9:55 he peeks into FOW? Hasn't one of the main arguments against Spades is that he never peeks into FOW because the camera lock doesn't allow it? Not sure if I am interpreting your analysis correctly so let me know if I misread what you said, In these replays he very very rarely moves his camera fully into the fog of war. For example, to click on a watch tower, or to scout an enemy base, or to move his army to a hidden position. In his ladder replays he does this ALL THE TIME. In these games he does it less than 10. It does happen a couple times. The case in question he moves his camera slightly downwards where the enemy army is. It is still mostly viewing uncovered map area. This happens often during the replays. The area in question is hiding advancing units that he cannot see. He unsieged his tanks just a second before and immediately sieges them again, BEFORE seeing the army units. This is not standard terran play. His current game knowledge would encourage him to try to advance on the ramp and siege there, or even up the ramp. Instead he sieges to attack the high ground as if he knows what is there. He has a viking available that is already in position to view that high ground, but he has it placed far away so it is only uncovering the very edge of the cliff. Why didn't he put it in a better position? Probably because he can already see the high ground. Well I don't play terran and I'm no way qualified to know what standard terran play is at that level so I won't address that. I was merely addressing the inconsistency between how the hack apparently works and what actually happens. Either the hack auto-locks or camera in place when you look into FOW (hence you can't look into FOW, which is an issue many people have brought up against Spades), or it doesn't. You can't use both 'he peeks into FOW hence it indicates he is hacking' and 'he never peeks into FOW for any reason which is suspicious, hence it is like he's hacking. Either way it seems people are still uncertain about how the hack works, since people say it blocks your camera if you try peek into FOW, yet it lets you peek into FOW if the FOW is very near where your current vision is? I don't know, but we need some consistency. I can see your confusion based on what has been said in conjecture about how the hack works. The way that I am understanding it, and the way that fits what happens in this replay, is if you move the camera (screen scrolling) from the area you actually do have vision of and into the FOW hidden area, the camera follows your vision. But if you click a FOW area on the minimap where you don't have vision, the camera stays on the visible area you were looking at before you looked at the FOW hidden area. This explains why he never looks around in FOW. Ever. But yet is able to move around in FOW area from screen scrolling from a vision area. Also it explains why the scans that he does use on FOW areas seem to occur before his screen looks at them. I don't think he is scanning the minimap then looking at what he has scanned, as he never does that in any of his 'control group' ladder games. I think it pops his camera over to where he was already looking through FOW once he has vision of what he was looking at because of the scan. Does that make sense? He can build a command center in complete fog, 1:16:41, and he can also look in a complete fog of war 1:16:35, and I think you've already seen this. A direct challenge to your understanding of the so-called "hack." Face it, everyone is speculating how this so-called "hack" works, no one actually knows. Until then, everything is a guess. http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912
Interesting. Which game is this again? I want to review it again keeping your info in mind.
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On June 06 2012 12:09 jacksonlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 12:00 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 11:52 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:40 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 11:33 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:28 StarStrider wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295Guys I put a lot of work into this analysis, please take a look at it. The questionable move by Spades at 9:55 is HUGE. The camera does some really strange things too. It is a pretty hefty evidence to be added to the pile of evidences in favor of his guilt, and is very clarifying and reasonable about the issue. Please take the time to review it real quick and tell me your opinion. At least let me know it has been read so I didn't waste my time. You said at 9:55 he peeks into FOW? Hasn't one of the main arguments against Spades is that he never peeks into FOW because the camera lock doesn't allow it? Not sure if I am interpreting your analysis correctly so let me know if I misread what you said, In these replays he very very rarely moves his camera fully into the fog of war. For example, to click on a watch tower, or to scout an enemy base, or to move his army to a hidden position. In his ladder replays he does this ALL THE TIME. In these games he does it less than 10. It does happen a couple times. The case in question he moves his camera slightly downwards where the enemy army is. It is still mostly viewing uncovered map area. This happens often during the replays. The area in question is hiding advancing units that he cannot see. He unsieged his tanks just a second before and immediately sieges them again, BEFORE seeing the army units. This is not standard terran play. His current game knowledge would encourage him to try to advance on the ramp and siege there, or even up the ramp. Instead he sieges to attack the high ground as if he knows what is there. He has a viking available that is already in position to view that high ground, but he has it placed far away so it is only uncovering the very edge of the cliff. Why didn't he put it in a better position? Probably because he can already see the high ground. Well I don't play terran and I'm no way qualified to know what standard terran play is at that level so I won't address that. I was merely addressing the inconsistency between how the hack apparently works and what actually happens. Either the hack auto-locks or camera in place when you look into FOW (hence you can't look into FOW, which is an issue many people have brought up against Spades), or it doesn't. You can't use both 'he peeks into FOW hence it indicates he is hacking' and 'he never peeks into FOW for any reason which is suspicious, hence it is like he's hacking. Either way it seems people are still uncertain about how the hack works, since people say it blocks your camera if you try peek into FOW, yet it lets you peek into FOW if the FOW is very near where your current vision is? I don't know, but we need some consistency. I can see your confusion based on what has been said in conjecture about how the hack works. The way that I am understanding it, and the way that fits what happens in this replay, is if you move the camera (screen scrolling) from the area you actually do have vision of and into the FOW hidden area, the camera follows your vision. But if you click a FOW area on the minimap where you don't have vision, the camera stays on the visible area you were looking at before you looked at the FOW hidden area. This explains why he never looks around in FOW. Ever. But yet is able to move around in FOW area from screen scrolling from a vision area. Also it explains why the scans that he does use on FOW areas seem to occur before his screen looks at them. I don't think he is scanning the minimap then looking at what he has scanned, as he never does that in any of his 'control group' ladder games. I think it pops his camera over to where he was already looking through FOW once he has vision of what he was looking at because of the scan. Does that make sense? He can build a command center in complete fog, 1:16:41, and he can also look in a complete fog of war 1:16:35, and I think you've already seen this. A direct challenge to your understanding of the so-called "hack." Face it, everyone is speculating how this so-called "hack" works, no one actually knows. Until then, everything is a guess. http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912
I guess you conveniently ignored this post...
+ Show Spoiler +On June 06 2012 09:50 warshop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 09:46 Velocirapture wrote:On June 06 2012 09:06 Emporio wrote:On June 06 2012 08:57 Velocirapture wrote:
Has it been established that there exists a hack which can do all the suspicious things? Last I was on here there were a number of hackers stating that the things CatZ and Co. were pointing out couldnt be done with screen lock/map hacks. I have my own feelings towards the issue but I will never feel comfortable with a guilty assessment until somebody links to the hack that made this all possible. Nice try wanna-be hacker. LOL I dont even play SC2 that much. Just customs now and again. I do enjoy watching it though. Id be even happier if a known community techie like RICH could verify. An exhaustive list of features of a paid maphack : + Show Spoiler +Features:
Warden Protection
Version checker
Configurable hotkeys
3-state Maphack
-> Show units on mainmap & minimap
-> Show invisible/burrowed units
-> Show hallucinated units
-> Show Zerg creep
-> Hear sounds under fog of war
-> Enable selections under fog of war (client-sided)
-> View what your enemy is training/researching or the contents of selected
-> Graphical bugs fixed
Camera Lock
Show player selections
Show player clicks
Enable observer panel
-> Set to Production tab when game starts
-> Filter out local player
-> Filter out allied players
-> Filter out unwanted units and researches
-> Apply filtering for units and researches after X game seconds
-> Allow clicks through Production and Units tab information
Enable color/race icon
Watch player camera
Auto-start
-> Auto-mine minerals
-> Auto-create 1 worker
-> Auto-rally main building to local mineral patch
Auto-larva
-> Auto-group queens
Auto-mule
Auto-group buildings
Award achievements
Tac nuke strike alert
Nydus worm alert
Unit alert
Camera zoom out
Instant win against A.I. Also, here's a description of the interesting features : Show nested quote +Camera lock
Lock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it on by accident.
Watch player camera
Watch the camera movement of any player in real time, it also works like camera lock so everything is client-sided and not saved into the replay.
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"Magic Scan" and fog of war is irrelevant. Cloud Kingdom ~9:50 is all the evidence you'll ever need.
About the whole fog of war thing, though: Even if we don't know exactly how it works, it is highly suspicious for a player to play so utterly different from the 50 games before and 50 games after a certain Bo7. I mean, even if he legitimately is experimenting with a completely different way of orienting the map, it would be really weird for him to first start doing it in a super-important showmatch which was his one chance for some exposure.
This, coupled with the incredibly obvious hack-moves, should be all you need to toss this hacker aside and move on, yet people keep ignorantly defending Spades expecting "100% concrete proof" which is nigh-impossible to get and cannot be expected to ever appear.
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On June 06 2012 12:17 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 12:09 jacksonlee wrote:On June 06 2012 12:00 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 11:52 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:40 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 11:33 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:28 StarStrider wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295Guys I put a lot of work into this analysis, please take a look at it. The questionable move by Spades at 9:55 is HUGE. The camera does some really strange things too. It is a pretty hefty evidence to be added to the pile of evidences in favor of his guilt, and is very clarifying and reasonable about the issue. Please take the time to review it real quick and tell me your opinion. At least let me know it has been read so I didn't waste my time. You said at 9:55 he peeks into FOW? Hasn't one of the main arguments against Spades is that he never peeks into FOW because the camera lock doesn't allow it? Not sure if I am interpreting your analysis correctly so let me know if I misread what you said, In these replays he very very rarely moves his camera fully into the fog of war. For example, to click on a watch tower, or to scout an enemy base, or to move his army to a hidden position. In his ladder replays he does this ALL THE TIME. In these games he does it less than 10. It does happen a couple times. The case in question he moves his camera slightly downwards where the enemy army is. It is still mostly viewing uncovered map area. This happens often during the replays. The area in question is hiding advancing units that he cannot see. He unsieged his tanks just a second before and immediately sieges them again, BEFORE seeing the army units. This is not standard terran play. His current game knowledge would encourage him to try to advance on the ramp and siege there, or even up the ramp. Instead he sieges to attack the high ground as if he knows what is there. He has a viking available that is already in position to view that high ground, but he has it placed far away so it is only uncovering the very edge of the cliff. Why didn't he put it in a better position? Probably because he can already see the high ground. Well I don't play terran and I'm no way qualified to know what standard terran play is at that level so I won't address that. I was merely addressing the inconsistency between how the hack apparently works and what actually happens. Either the hack auto-locks or camera in place when you look into FOW (hence you can't look into FOW, which is an issue many people have brought up against Spades), or it doesn't. You can't use both 'he peeks into FOW hence it indicates he is hacking' and 'he never peeks into FOW for any reason which is suspicious, hence it is like he's hacking. Either way it seems people are still uncertain about how the hack works, since people say it blocks your camera if you try peek into FOW, yet it lets you peek into FOW if the FOW is very near where your current vision is? I don't know, but we need some consistency. I can see your confusion based on what has been said in conjecture about how the hack works. The way that I am understanding it, and the way that fits what happens in this replay, is if you move the camera (screen scrolling) from the area you actually do have vision of and into the FOW hidden area, the camera follows your vision. But if you click a FOW area on the minimap where you don't have vision, the camera stays on the visible area you were looking at before you looked at the FOW hidden area. This explains why he never looks around in FOW. Ever. But yet is able to move around in FOW area from screen scrolling from a vision area. Also it explains why the scans that he does use on FOW areas seem to occur before his screen looks at them. I don't think he is scanning the minimap then looking at what he has scanned, as he never does that in any of his 'control group' ladder games. I think it pops his camera over to where he was already looking through FOW once he has vision of what he was looking at because of the scan. Does that make sense? He can build a command center in complete fog, 1:16:41, and he can also look in a complete fog of war 1:16:35, and I think you've already seen this. A direct challenge to your understanding of the so-called "hack." Face it, everyone is speculating how this so-called "hack" works, no one actually knows. Until then, everything is a guess. http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 I guess you conveniently ignored this post... + Show Spoiler +On June 06 2012 09:50 warshop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 09:46 Velocirapture wrote:On June 06 2012 09:06 Emporio wrote:On June 06 2012 08:57 Velocirapture wrote:
Has it been established that there exists a hack which can do all the suspicious things? Last I was on here there were a number of hackers stating that the things CatZ and Co. were pointing out couldnt be done with screen lock/map hacks. I have my own feelings towards the issue but I will never feel comfortable with a guilty assessment until somebody links to the hack that made this all possible. Nice try wanna-be hacker. LOL I dont even play SC2 that much. Just customs now and again. I do enjoy watching it though. Id be even happier if a known community techie like RICH could verify. An exhaustive list of features of a paid maphack : + Show Spoiler +Features:
Warden Protection
Version checker
Configurable hotkeys
3-state Maphack
-> Show units on mainmap & minimap
-> Show invisible/burrowed units
-> Show hallucinated units
-> Show Zerg creep
-> Hear sounds under fog of war
-> Enable selections under fog of war (client-sided)
-> View what your enemy is training/researching or the contents of selected
-> Graphical bugs fixed
Camera Lock
Show player selections
Show player clicks
Enable observer panel
-> Set to Production tab when game starts
-> Filter out local player
-> Filter out allied players
-> Filter out unwanted units and researches
-> Apply filtering for units and researches after X game seconds
-> Allow clicks through Production and Units tab information
Enable color/race icon
Watch player camera
Auto-start
-> Auto-mine minerals
-> Auto-create 1 worker
-> Auto-rally main building to local mineral patch
Auto-larva
-> Auto-group queens
Auto-mule
Auto-group buildings
Award achievements
Tac nuke strike alert
Nydus worm alert
Unit alert
Camera zoom out
Instant win against A.I. Also, here's a description of the interesting features : Show nested quote +Camera lock
Lock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it on by accident.
Watch player camera
Watch the camera movement of any player in real time, it also works like camera lock so everything is client-sided and not saved into the replay.
So you just basically admitted that there is no way to track the hack. Okay then
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On June 06 2012 12:18 jacksonlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 12:17 Dosey wrote:On June 06 2012 12:09 jacksonlee wrote:On June 06 2012 12:00 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 11:52 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:40 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 11:33 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:28 StarStrider wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295Guys I put a lot of work into this analysis, please take a look at it. The questionable move by Spades at 9:55 is HUGE. The camera does some really strange things too. It is a pretty hefty evidence to be added to the pile of evidences in favor of his guilt, and is very clarifying and reasonable about the issue. Please take the time to review it real quick and tell me your opinion. At least let me know it has been read so I didn't waste my time. You said at 9:55 he peeks into FOW? Hasn't one of the main arguments against Spades is that he never peeks into FOW because the camera lock doesn't allow it? Not sure if I am interpreting your analysis correctly so let me know if I misread what you said, In these replays he very very rarely moves his camera fully into the fog of war. For example, to click on a watch tower, or to scout an enemy base, or to move his army to a hidden position. In his ladder replays he does this ALL THE TIME. In these games he does it less than 10. It does happen a couple times. The case in question he moves his camera slightly downwards where the enemy army is. It is still mostly viewing uncovered map area. This happens often during the replays. The area in question is hiding advancing units that he cannot see. He unsieged his tanks just a second before and immediately sieges them again, BEFORE seeing the army units. This is not standard terran play. His current game knowledge would encourage him to try to advance on the ramp and siege there, or even up the ramp. Instead he sieges to attack the high ground as if he knows what is there. He has a viking available that is already in position to view that high ground, but he has it placed far away so it is only uncovering the very edge of the cliff. Why didn't he put it in a better position? Probably because he can already see the high ground. Well I don't play terran and I'm no way qualified to know what standard terran play is at that level so I won't address that. I was merely addressing the inconsistency between how the hack apparently works and what actually happens. Either the hack auto-locks or camera in place when you look into FOW (hence you can't look into FOW, which is an issue many people have brought up against Spades), or it doesn't. You can't use both 'he peeks into FOW hence it indicates he is hacking' and 'he never peeks into FOW for any reason which is suspicious, hence it is like he's hacking. Either way it seems people are still uncertain about how the hack works, since people say it blocks your camera if you try peek into FOW, yet it lets you peek into FOW if the FOW is very near where your current vision is? I don't know, but we need some consistency. I can see your confusion based on what has been said in conjecture about how the hack works. The way that I am understanding it, and the way that fits what happens in this replay, is if you move the camera (screen scrolling) from the area you actually do have vision of and into the FOW hidden area, the camera follows your vision. But if you click a FOW area on the minimap where you don't have vision, the camera stays on the visible area you were looking at before you looked at the FOW hidden area. This explains why he never looks around in FOW. Ever. But yet is able to move around in FOW area from screen scrolling from a vision area. Also it explains why the scans that he does use on FOW areas seem to occur before his screen looks at them. I don't think he is scanning the minimap then looking at what he has scanned, as he never does that in any of his 'control group' ladder games. I think it pops his camera over to where he was already looking through FOW once he has vision of what he was looking at because of the scan. Does that make sense? He can build a command center in complete fog, 1:16:41, and he can also look in a complete fog of war 1:16:35, and I think you've already seen this. A direct challenge to your understanding of the so-called "hack." Face it, everyone is speculating how this so-called "hack" works, no one actually knows. Until then, everything is a guess. http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 I guess you conveniently ignored this post... + Show Spoiler +On June 06 2012 09:50 warshop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 09:46 Velocirapture wrote:On June 06 2012 09:06 Emporio wrote:On June 06 2012 08:57 Velocirapture wrote:
Has it been established that there exists a hack which can do all the suspicious things? Last I was on here there were a number of hackers stating that the things CatZ and Co. were pointing out couldnt be done with screen lock/map hacks. I have my own feelings towards the issue but I will never feel comfortable with a guilty assessment until somebody links to the hack that made this all possible. Nice try wanna-be hacker. LOL I dont even play SC2 that much. Just customs now and again. I do enjoy watching it though. Id be even happier if a known community techie like RICH could verify. An exhaustive list of features of a paid maphack : + Show Spoiler +Features:
Warden Protection
Version checker
Configurable hotkeys
3-state Maphack
-> Show units on mainmap & minimap
-> Show invisible/burrowed units
-> Show hallucinated units
-> Show Zerg creep
-> Hear sounds under fog of war
-> Enable selections under fog of war (client-sided)
-> View what your enemy is training/researching or the contents of selected
-> Graphical bugs fixed
Camera Lock
Show player selections
Show player clicks
Enable observer panel
-> Set to Production tab when game starts
-> Filter out local player
-> Filter out allied players
-> Filter out unwanted units and researches
-> Apply filtering for units and researches after X game seconds
-> Allow clicks through Production and Units tab information
Enable color/race icon
Watch player camera
Auto-start
-> Auto-mine minerals
-> Auto-create 1 worker
-> Auto-rally main building to local mineral patch
Auto-larva
-> Auto-group queens
Auto-mule
Auto-group buildings
Award achievements
Tac nuke strike alert
Nydus worm alert
Unit alert
Camera zoom out
Instant win against A.I. Also, here's a description of the interesting features : Show nested quote +Camera lock
Lock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it on by accident.
Watch player camera
Watch the camera movement of any player in real time, it also works like camera lock so everything is client-sided and not saved into the replay. So you just basically admitted that there is no way to track the hack. Okay then
Why do trolls seem to have the lowest comprehension skills? There, I bolded the important part for you.
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On June 06 2012 12:05 antilyon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:59 starcraft911 wrote:On June 06 2012 11:25 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 06 2012 10:45 insanet wrote:On June 06 2012 10:34 Fyrewolf wrote:On June 06 2012 10:18 starcraft911 wrote:On June 06 2012 09:32 StreetWise wrote:
Reading through this thread I have several questions:
1. Who is the Judge in this matter. People keep saying he is innocent until proven guilty. Who is going to pronounce him innocent or guilty if not the community as a whole?
2. Secondly, its been mentioned that Spades hacked in BW. How was he caught/proven guilty back then and can the same methods be applied? It's called the court of public opinion and it's real. Just ask OJ Simpson about it. If the community deems him guilty his sponsors will probably not like that. Nobody wants to invest in an OJ Simpson spokesman. The method he got caught in bw by was because bw maphacks didnt have the failsafes sc2 ones have. Also when you've been maphacking for over a decade you learn what not to do. I.E. don't stare at proxy buildings out in the middle of nowhere, but with today's hacks you can do that and nobody knows because of the ol' screen lock. Actually it was because of a safety feature that he was caught in BW. The hack would delete selections of enemy units from the replays, to hide selections of units that the player should not have vision of if he were not hacking. However it is so highly unusual that enemy units were never selected ever(which good players did to check upgrades); it was discovered because of a lack of a normal activity, rather than an abundance of suspicious activity. + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=69911Explanation of method When you select units (men/buildings) it is recorded in the replay. However, some map hacks remove the recording of selections on units which are not your own. This happens in any game type (UMS, Melee, etc.) and regardless of the number of players. The reason for this is because previously hackers have been caught by analyzing the replay and finding cases of them clicking on things which they could not see without a map hack. Because selecting an enemy unit is the only way to see things like upgrades, health, build progress, or distinguish buildings that are identical while they build, decent players do this quite often. In a game over 15 minutes, over 99% of the time a good player will have at least one selection of an enemy unit. All of the players in this list have several games played in a row (which are over 15 minutes) and without ever clicking an enemy unit once. While for only one game, there might be a 1% chance of this happening to even a legitimate player, the chance of this happening 5 times in a row is roughly 1 out of 10 billion. People should really read how he got caught in BW, he didnt click any enemy units for 14 entire games, he didnt get caught because MBS or automining or multiple selection, he did got caught because abnormal activity, he was guilty with way less data that what we have. Right now there is a shit ton of abnormal activity, and people still dont believe he hacks lol. i guess you still believe he was innocent in BW. Eh, in BW even his own team investigated into it and reviewed over 150 replays just to be sure over the course of a week. The detection method was probably? more accurate, too. And the entire process wasn't one anonymous tl member posting on a smurf, it was the joint work of many. And it wasn't released prematurely. In all likelihood, his team was either in the process of or would soon be looking into this accusation. I think any clean organization would want to get to the bottom of any accusation of cheating to either defend their player or keep their team in good standing. By leaving his team before any statement from them could be made he saves himself from an internal investigation. There's no way to prove this is the reason for him departing, but I cannot see why someone under investigation would spontaneously leave their team if there wasn't something to hide. I'd also like to add that the identity of the OP is as irrelevant as the accused for anyone trying to find the truth. You don't need to know their identity to realize that something is missing from the show match series that happens in every ladder game. That's quite the statistical anomaly. Far more impressive than the one that got him caught in BW. On June 06 2012 11:49 dumrednek wrote:
again, has there been a statement in regards to how his game mechanics completely changed in his series vs lucifron and his ladder replays? Nope. Actually, there is. It's some subtle things, he didn't change his hotkeys but it's there, the way he moves his camera feels different.
You seem to have misunderstood the question that i replied to. The guy was asking if there was a statement made (by Spades) as to why the games on ladder were so much different than those played in the aforementioned showmatch. I replied that there has not in fact been a statement made by Spades.
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On June 06 2012 12:20 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 12:18 jacksonlee wrote:On June 06 2012 12:17 Dosey wrote:On June 06 2012 12:09 jacksonlee wrote:On June 06 2012 12:00 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 11:52 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:40 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 11:33 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:28 StarStrider wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295Guys I put a lot of work into this analysis, please take a look at it. The questionable move by Spades at 9:55 is HUGE. The camera does some really strange things too. It is a pretty hefty evidence to be added to the pile of evidences in favor of his guilt, and is very clarifying and reasonable about the issue. Please take the time to review it real quick and tell me your opinion. At least let me know it has been read so I didn't waste my time. You said at 9:55 he peeks into FOW? Hasn't one of the main arguments against Spades is that he never peeks into FOW because the camera lock doesn't allow it? Not sure if I am interpreting your analysis correctly so let me know if I misread what you said, In these replays he very very rarely moves his camera fully into the fog of war. For example, to click on a watch tower, or to scout an enemy base, or to move his army to a hidden position. In his ladder replays he does this ALL THE TIME. In these games he does it less than 10. It does happen a couple times. The case in question he moves his camera slightly downwards where the enemy army is. It is still mostly viewing uncovered map area. This happens often during the replays. The area in question is hiding advancing units that he cannot see. He unsieged his tanks just a second before and immediately sieges them again, BEFORE seeing the army units. This is not standard terran play. His current game knowledge would encourage him to try to advance on the ramp and siege there, or even up the ramp. Instead he sieges to attack the high ground as if he knows what is there. He has a viking available that is already in position to view that high ground, but he has it placed far away so it is only uncovering the very edge of the cliff. Why didn't he put it in a better position? Probably because he can already see the high ground. Well I don't play terran and I'm no way qualified to know what standard terran play is at that level so I won't address that. I was merely addressing the inconsistency between how the hack apparently works and what actually happens. Either the hack auto-locks or camera in place when you look into FOW (hence you can't look into FOW, which is an issue many people have brought up against Spades), or it doesn't. You can't use both 'he peeks into FOW hence it indicates he is hacking' and 'he never peeks into FOW for any reason which is suspicious, hence it is like he's hacking. Either way it seems people are still uncertain about how the hack works, since people say it blocks your camera if you try peek into FOW, yet it lets you peek into FOW if the FOW is very near where your current vision is? I don't know, but we need some consistency. I can see your confusion based on what has been said in conjecture about how the hack works. The way that I am understanding it, and the way that fits what happens in this replay, is if you move the camera (screen scrolling) from the area you actually do have vision of and into the FOW hidden area, the camera follows your vision. But if you click a FOW area on the minimap where you don't have vision, the camera stays on the visible area you were looking at before you looked at the FOW hidden area. This explains why he never looks around in FOW. Ever. But yet is able to move around in FOW area from screen scrolling from a vision area. Also it explains why the scans that he does use on FOW areas seem to occur before his screen looks at them. I don't think he is scanning the minimap then looking at what he has scanned, as he never does that in any of his 'control group' ladder games. I think it pops his camera over to where he was already looking through FOW once he has vision of what he was looking at because of the scan. Does that make sense? He can build a command center in complete fog, 1:16:41, and he can also look in a complete fog of war 1:16:35, and I think you've already seen this. A direct challenge to your understanding of the so-called "hack." Face it, everyone is speculating how this so-called "hack" works, no one actually knows. Until then, everything is a guess. http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 I guess you conveniently ignored this post... + Show Spoiler +On June 06 2012 09:50 warshop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 09:46 Velocirapture wrote:On June 06 2012 09:06 Emporio wrote:On June 06 2012 08:57 Velocirapture wrote:
Has it been established that there exists a hack which can do all the suspicious things? Last I was on here there were a number of hackers stating that the things CatZ and Co. were pointing out couldnt be done with screen lock/map hacks. I have my own feelings towards the issue but I will never feel comfortable with a guilty assessment until somebody links to the hack that made this all possible. Nice try wanna-be hacker. LOL I dont even play SC2 that much. Just customs now and again. I do enjoy watching it though. Id be even happier if a known community techie like RICH could verify. An exhaustive list of features of a paid maphack : + Show Spoiler +Features:
Warden Protection
Version checker
Configurable hotkeys
3-state Maphack
-> Show units on mainmap & minimap
-> Show invisible/burrowed units
-> Show hallucinated units
-> Show Zerg creep
-> Hear sounds under fog of war
-> Enable selections under fog of war (client-sided)
-> View what your enemy is training/researching or the contents of selected
-> Graphical bugs fixed
Camera Lock
Show player selections
Show player clicks
Enable observer panel
-> Set to Production tab when game starts
-> Filter out local player
-> Filter out allied players
-> Filter out unwanted units and researches
-> Apply filtering for units and researches after X game seconds
-> Allow clicks through Production and Units tab information
Enable color/race icon
Watch player camera
Auto-start
-> Auto-mine minerals
-> Auto-create 1 worker
-> Auto-rally main building to local mineral patch
Auto-larva
-> Auto-group queens
Auto-mule
Auto-group buildings
Award achievements
Tac nuke strike alert
Nydus worm alert
Unit alert
Camera zoom out
Instant win against A.I. Also, here's a description of the interesting features : Show nested quote +Camera lock
Lock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it on by accident.
Watch player camera
Watch the camera movement of any player in real time, it also works like camera lock so everything is client-sided and not saved into the replay. So you just basically admitted that there is no way to track the hack. Okay then Why do trolls seem to have the lowest comprehension skills? There, I bolded the important part for you.
There is no way to detect the hack through analysis then. Because the player can look into fog and yet it won't matter because the hack can compensate for that.
By that logic, there is no way to track the hack
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Lol come on guys supporting Spades... How can you be so naive? The amount of proof is overwhelming. Spades should just apologize already...
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On June 06 2012 12:25 KicksAss wrote:
Lol come on guys supporting Spades... How can you be so naive? The amount of proof is overwhelming. Spades should just apologize already...
I"m not supporting anyone, I am disproving the so called "certainty" that people attribute to their flimsy opinions
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On June 06 2012 12:17 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 12:09 jacksonlee wrote:On June 06 2012 12:00 StarStrider wrote:On June 06 2012 11:52 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:40 artanis2 wrote:On June 06 2012 11:33 Ryder. wrote:On June 06 2012 11:28 StarStrider wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=215#4295Guys I put a lot of work into this analysis, please take a look at it. The questionable move by Spades at 9:55 is HUGE. The camera does some really strange things too. It is a pretty hefty evidence to be added to the pile of evidences in favor of his guilt, and is very clarifying and reasonable about the issue. Please take the time to review it real quick and tell me your opinion. At least let me know it has been read so I didn't waste my time. You said at 9:55 he peeks into FOW? Hasn't one of the main arguments against Spades is that he never peeks into FOW because the camera lock doesn't allow it? Not sure if I am interpreting your analysis correctly so let me know if I misread what you said, In these replays he very very rarely moves his camera fully into the fog of war. For example, to click on a watch tower, or to scout an enemy base, or to move his army to a hidden position. In his ladder replays he does this ALL THE TIME. In these games he does it less than 10. It does happen a couple times. The case in question he moves his camera slightly downwards where the enemy army is. It is still mostly viewing uncovered map area. This happens often during the replays. The area in question is hiding advancing units that he cannot see. He unsieged his tanks just a second before and immediately sieges them again, BEFORE seeing the army units. This is not standard terran play. His current game knowledge would encourage him to try to advance on the ramp and siege there, or even up the ramp. Instead he sieges to attack the high ground as if he knows what is there. He has a viking available that is already in position to view that high ground, but he has it placed far away so it is only uncovering the very edge of the cliff. Why didn't he put it in a better position? Probably because he can already see the high ground. Well I don't play terran and I'm no way qualified to know what standard terran play is at that level so I won't address that. I was merely addressing the inconsistency between how the hack apparently works and what actually happens. Either the hack auto-locks or camera in place when you look into FOW (hence you can't look into FOW, which is an issue many people have brought up against Spades), or it doesn't. You can't use both 'he peeks into FOW hence it indicates he is hacking' and 'he never peeks into FOW for any reason which is suspicious, hence it is like he's hacking. Either way it seems people are still uncertain about how the hack works, since people say it blocks your camera if you try peek into FOW, yet it lets you peek into FOW if the FOW is very near where your current vision is? I don't know, but we need some consistency. I can see your confusion based on what has been said in conjecture about how the hack works. The way that I am understanding it, and the way that fits what happens in this replay, is if you move the camera (screen scrolling) from the area you actually do have vision of and into the FOW hidden area, the camera follows your vision. But if you click a FOW area on the minimap where you don't have vision, the camera stays on the visible area you were looking at before you looked at the FOW hidden area. This explains why he never looks around in FOW. Ever. But yet is able to move around in FOW area from screen scrolling from a vision area. Also it explains why the scans that he does use on FOW areas seem to occur before his screen looks at them. I don't think he is scanning the minimap then looking at what he has scanned, as he never does that in any of his 'control group' ladder games. I think it pops his camera over to where he was already looking through FOW once he has vision of what he was looking at because of the scan. Does that make sense? He can build a command center in complete fog, 1:16:41, and he can also look in a complete fog of war 1:16:35, and I think you've already seen this. A direct challenge to your understanding of the so-called "hack." Face it, everyone is speculating how this so-called "hack" works, no one actually knows. Until then, everything is a guess. http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 Interesting. Which game is this again? I want to review it again keeping your info in mind.
looks like entombed valley against lucifron
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On June 06 2012 12:26 jacksonlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 12:25 KicksAss wrote:
Lol come on guys supporting Spades... How can you be so naive? The amount of proof is overwhelming. Spades should just apologize already... I"m not supporting anyone, I am disproving the so called "certainty" that people attribute to their flimsy opinions
Is it fair to say he is 99+% guilty? Can we say this is a certainty?
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On June 06 2012 12:26 jacksonlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 12:25 KicksAss wrote:
Lol come on guys supporting Spades... How can you be so naive? The amount of proof is overwhelming. Spades should just apologize already... I"m not supporting anyone, I am disproving the so called "certainty" that people attribute to their flimsy opinions
There is no absolute certainty without a hack detection software, without a fpv stream of him hacking, or without him coming out and admitting it. My question is how many red flags, lucky coincidences, and questionable mechanics in contrast to his normal ladder games, must be shown before an objective decision can be made to say "yes, all the suspicious activity from multiple games adds up to be more than enough to decide he must be hacking." Where should we define that line?
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EPT
