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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 13:25 Amorfati wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 12:59 Thorantham wrote:
PM me when a pro who made it past the first round in MLG comments.....
?? iNcontrol finished 4th dallas 2011, Painuser got 3rd same tourney, IdrA won D.C. 2010 & na invitational 2011 and got 4th at orlando 2011
Incontrol/Idra are biased(Watch SOTG if you want to see why I say that episode 70) and painuser hasn't been a pro for a long time. I believe he refers to people like Thorzain or a person who has no bias and a good analytical eye.
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On June 06 2012 13:34 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:25 Amorfati wrote:On June 06 2012 12:59 Thorantham wrote:
PM me when a pro who made it past the first round in MLG comments.....
?? iNcontrol finished 4th dallas 2011, Painuser got 3rd same tourney, IdrA won D.C. 2010 & na invitational 2011 and got 4th at orlando 2011 Incontrol/Idra are biased(Watch SOTG if you want to see why I say that episode 70) and painuser hasn't been a pro for a long time. I believe he refers to people like Thorzain or a person who has no bias and a good analytical eye.
I never said I supported what they said or the way they said it,I was just pointing out that what he said was wrong, if he wanted to say the points you made about unbiased or analytical pros he could of quite easily said that instead he made the comment he did which wasn't really constructive at all it just came across as a dig at some pros.
and for the record I did watch SOTG and the catz/illusion disscussion as well
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Has the SC2 community sunk this far? Its pretty pathetic to call out a pro player with such flimsy evidence. Its even more pathetic for the community to go on such a witchhunt and its just absolutely disgusting to have other pro players come out against this guy with baseless accusations and no evidence. If the community continues in this direction I do not doubt that the end of SC2 as an esport is near.
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What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless?
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On June 06 2012 13:43 Mallard86 wrote:
Has the SC2 community sunk this far? Its pretty pathetic to call out a pro player with such flimsy evidence. Its even more pathetic for the community to go on such a witchhunt and its just absolutely disgusting to have other pro players come out against this guy with baseless accusations and no evidence. If the community continues in this direction I do not doubt that the end of SC2 as an esport is near.
Oh yes, thank you Sir Savior of Esports.
Clearly your messiah like perspective on our community will wash away our sins.
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On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless?
LOL. Have you SEEN the replays or even the VOD of the analysis?
It's pretty obvious to any player who is actually competent enough at the game. Pretty much all Terran players who aren't retarded know that the choices made, in cursor and army movement and in the decision making, were just NOT natural.
Stop trying to be the one, the neo, etc. Actually watch those games if you are informed enough and make your own decisions on whether he was innocent or guilty, rather than simply criticizing everyone for taking active steps to discourage cheating.
You can't stop 100 cheaters. You can scare 99 of them shitless by showing what you do to the 100th.
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Pretty pathetic. I don't understand how you can sleep at night knowing you haven't earned your victory. Pros like this need to get back to their roots and learn how to play for fun and for themselves.
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On June 06 2012 13:43 Mallard86 wrote:
Has the SC2 community sunk this far? Its pretty pathetic to call out a pro player with such flimsy evidence. Its even more pathetic for the community to go on such a witchhunt and its just absolutely disgusting to have other pro players come out against this guy with baseless accusations and no evidence. If the community continues in this direction I do not doubt that the end of SC2 as an esport is near.
What are you talking about man...either you didn't read any of the discussion or you don't play the game at a high enough level to understand why other pros would find his actions consistently fishy. The evidence may be circumstantial but it ain't flimsy.
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This is so sad, I have such a huge respect for professional starcraft players, Spades don't deserve all this shitstorm until everything is proven . I can't believe the way teamliquid is dealing with this situation, should have been handled privately. To me it's like taking a shit on esports.
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On June 06 2012 12:30 gawk wrote:Its very difficult to follow all the different accusations made in this thread so I created a liquipedia page to collect them. This way its much easier to see which of Spades actions already have already been explained (e.g. the magic scan) and which have not. As its very time consuming to collect the information I only took the Points the op mentioned so far. Many points have been discussed in this thread and can be linked accordingly. So everyone fell free to add content to that page. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/User:Gawk/Spades
Most of the points made in those games were unlikely or just plain false, Nerchio made a post + Show Spoiler +Acer.Nerchio responds with game-by-game analysis & opinion 6:09 PM EST - Hide Spoiler - I am a bit sleepy so it won't be as detailed as i would like it to be although i will try my best. To start off, i am not a friend of Spades and i don't even know him personally i guess we never even talked. If he hacked i'd be the first person to shout it out and i am glad that this topic turned into some kind of a discussion(but only a few people say reasonable things and only those should speak that saw the replays). http://drop.sc/191488Here you got a replay of mine in TvT that i played just a few minutes ago to act a little bit like Spades (pretty much 0 looks at the fog of war , etc.) and some weird action as well with army movement. I could make the scan at some point look even more weird but i didn't have the time to play another TvT(basicly you scan via minimap and after that you look there). To say a few more words about the Lucifron vs Spades itself. I rather concentrate on the game itself than the camera locks which are really hard to judge for me. Things to note from most of the replays: Spades like a variety of tank/viking/marine openings either 1 or 2 base. Shattered Temple This game is not suspicious for me at all, Spades goes double gas before factory which definitely indicates a heavy gas play(in this case a raven) which partially countered cloak banshee of Lucifron. Antiga Shipyard I feel like Spades didn't see too much so he decides to play safer and goes for the engineering bay and the 9:30 move with vikings is not weird at all for me since he sent them in the place where the drops usually take place or tank/medivac lift. The rest of the game is standard TvT(remember than to move units around you don't actually need to look into fog of war, you can move them 'screen by screen' or by mini map). Entombed Valley OP Suggests that it's the exact same build than antiga, in fact it's not because antiga was a fast expand build and on this map Spades goes for much later expansion which means he has faster viking and doesn't need to go for engineering bay(it's risky i agree but not needed as well) sinc he is on 1 base. The only thing that is suspicious in this game is that he stops Lucifron's push on the right through the small valley. He had marine there before but he moved his army to defend that stop after few seconds which was weird to me but it's not really that big of a deal. Shakuras Plateau The 4 scv move was almost the same second as the marine appread which is kinda fast, but we also have to accept that his scv building CC was dieing so taking 4 scv could be a little bit exaggarated play from him. Moving his tanks in the mid game could be just bad play, everybody does such moves from time to time, you can't actually control every single move in the game and be sure that it's safe. 16:20 i don't really think it's watching Lucifron's army move, it rather looks like a bad move with his mouse(he had some problems when he played). Metalopolis As i said, Spades like a lot of tank/viking openings so nothing weird happend here, except the moves of his army around 7:30 when Lucifron is dropping hellions into his main. I have to say thought that it's very little to read from to say that he's hacking or anything, could be just indecisive where to put his army. The OP is saying something about scv at the start of the game, he can just fall it back from Lucifrons base by using a hotkey. Daybreak Not much to say but standard marine/tank TvT. I'd argument his build from the fact that Daybreak is not a map you see a lot of pushes because coming through your side to another one takes a lot of time so taking risks paysoff. Tal'darim There is a lot of points that OP suggests but a lot of them are simply false. I don't understand what he was trying to say because i see Spades making hellions all game long. Also most of the time you don't really want to rush in with your blue flame hellions against 2 base terran(can't harass anyway with their army there). Also why would he go around the map with his hellions if there is nothing to do and drops against mech are very popular? He just kept his army in the main, that's all and there is nothing more to it, controlling the xel'naga would give him time to react. I'd say that the weird moves of his army come from the fact that not many people move into your natural but rather your 3rd. Tell me who would rush in against mech into sieged natural? That's too big risk that's why you'd rather put some tanks in ur 3rd spread in a line.
I also created a post about it, we said it in different ways but ended up with the same opinion, I elaborated more on TvT reading your opponent's scans which Spades did a lot. pretty much every point the Op made was exaggerated. there was a few suspicious moves yes but not as many as he made out to be.
However the games vs Theognis have a large amount of suspicious activity that is why they are being concentrated on mostly, op games have only a little not enough for a definite answer.
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On June 06 2012 13:43 Mallard86 wrote:
Has the SC2 community sunk this far? Its pretty pathetic to call out a pro player with such flimsy evidence. Its even more pathetic for the community to go on such a witchhunt and its just absolutely disgusting to have other pro players come out against this guy with baseless accusations and no evidence. If the community continues in this direction I do not doubt that the end of SC2 as an esport is near.
I understand your point overall, but I'd argue that the hunt (I was looking for a better word) is based around more than 'baseless accusations and no evidence'
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On June 06 2012 13:51 Pablols wrote:
This is so sad, I have such a huge respect for professional starcraft players, Spades don't deserve all this shitstorm until everything is proven . I can't believe the way teamliquid is dealing with this situation, should have been handled privately. To me it's like taking a shit on esports.
This is so sad, I have such a huge respect for professional starcraft players who actually take the time out of their busy practice schedules to look into a serious accusation by the community (I don't have a huge respect for shitty excuses). The overwhelming evidence and analysis provided to the community didn't deserve all this ignorance until ever. I can't believe the way people are dealing with this situation, should have actually watched the replays/VODS.
To me it's like criticizing a (criticism of a) novel without reading the novel.
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On June 06 2012 13:23 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:00 StarStrider wrote:
9:55 - Class 4 - At 9:55, the unsiege animation finishes and the tanks move .5 onscreen inch to the left into the nat, before suddenly sieging again. The marines had vision of the ramp out of the main and saw it was clear, and the viking had vision of the edge of the cliff. It was safe to move into the Nat and siege in a good position there, there was no reason to resiege so quickly in such a seemingly useless position that was only a microscopic distance away from the previous position. But the sudden tank siege again at 9:58, after just the tiniest movement to the left, cannot be rationally explained. The most suspicious thing in this whole replay happened along with the sudden siege: at 9:56 the camera swings down to look at Theo's Fog-of-War-hidden base and army. It was just a split second look, but nonetheless very very obvious, and telling. If we were able to see through the FoW, we would see Spades looking directly at Theo's army moving up to the edge of the cliff, but still hidden to the view of the viking (the viking can only see about 2 blocks up the very tip of the cliff, it cant even see the missile turret that shot the medivac down earlier.) The resiege .5 seconds later has no rational explanation in my mind other than he saw the army moving up to the edge of the cliff THROUGH the fog of war. Just in the nic of time his tanks were resieged and all 3 were able to take huge shots on the entire ball that had just "randomly" walked into viking vision range at the edge of the cliff. Again, I can think of no plausible way to justify this other than pure luck and the freakiest bonjwa game sense, and that just doesn't sound plausible. Exhibit A: The tank positions before the unsiege: + Show Spoiler +This is an ideal location for attacking the natural. With the 2nd CC destroyed however, at least two tanks need to be moved forward. We will see later on that Spades wants a tank where Tank 2 is in this picture. The two options would be to unsiege all three and do the half inch move, or to unsiege 1 and 3 and move around. The problem with the second option is that a minute and a half earlier in the game, theognis used that cliff to snipe a tank in about the same location as the path around tank 2. Since you are already planning a quick resiege, the safer choice is to unsiege all three and move them while staying out of range from the cliff. Exhibits B and B2: The pan down with FoW: + Show Spoiler +And without: + Show Spoiler +Now Exhibit C: + Show Spoiler +The first and most important thing to note on the pan down is that if you watch from Spade's point of view the original motion moves his tanks completely out of his view at the top. What we are seeing with the pan down before the correction is the placement of Spades' marines. Look at Exhibit B and imagine yourself with no hacks trying to picture anywhere and everywhere that the enemy might be and where you want your guys to be to stay out of danger. He moves the view down just a bit too far at first, then moves up to rally the tanks into their new position. This can be seen at the red star in Exhibit C. If nothing happens until the tanks finish sieging he is the ready to move his viking to gain vision. Instead theognis moves into cannon fire. Before we get to that however, consider Exhibit B2, what he would see without FoW and the yellow star in Exhibit C. Ask yourself, if you saw that coming is it better to siege immediately to try and get a few kills - knowing he isn't going to stand there and take siege fire - or use the knowledge to go ahead and take the position he really wants to move up the ramp? What if theognis doesn't go to the far edge of the cliff but instead moves left to attack anything trying too come up the ramp? What good would tanks sieged half an inch forward be then? Here is Exhibit D. The eventually attack position about a minute later: + Show Spoiler +If he had seen theognis with no FoW then he could have known to safely move to about this position directly and ironically it would have been less suspicious to everyone here. Finally, Exhibit E: Moments before the suspicious pan down and the suspicious tank half inch move. + Show Spoiler +The rally points shown are for Spades' marines. While his tanks are unsieging but before moving his tanks half an inch forward, Spades moves his marines a half inch forward!He does the exact same thing with his marines that he ends up doing with the tanks, except the marines don't have to unsiege. Now let's put everything in context. Spades just destroyed his opponent's natural CC. His supply is 66/67. Just before the move he started two new rax and a supply depot. His own 2nd hasn't completed yet. Looking at Exhibit E, you don't want to let theognis come down his ramp and you don't want him to attack from the cliff. Your army is still in the attack-the-expo position. The safest way to do that with those units is to move your marines a few inches forward, then your tanks a few inches forward. Once all three tanks are resieged he is ready to move the viking into place and then go back to his base for macroing. You don't want to move your marines too far forward out of tank cover. You don't want to move your marines a little bit and then move the tanks in front of the marines - something he is criticized for doing in another game btw - so he moves the marines a little, and then moves the tanks the same amount. He gets lucky that theognis then walks into a blast. Is this really the first time people here have seen tanks unsiege only to resiege one or two seconds later? If theognis didn't take any damage I doubt anyone would have noticed this moment at all.
You make some very very good points. But the key thing I don't understand is why he suddenly resieged in the position he did in Exhibit C above the red star . He wasn't in range of the ramp by resieging there. He wasn't in range of anything. He was still in "natural sieging position", just a little bit forward. The small .5 inch movement didn't help him gain position at all: The 'eventual siege location' in Exhibit D is where he wanted to get. I don't understand why he would want to resiege where he did above the red star in C if he wouldn't be in position to hit the ramp, and he wouldn't be in position (Exhibit D) to start sieging the main and push up. There is absolutely no reason in my mind to resiege suddenly where he did, it only accomplishes the same purpose as his original position in Exhibit A, which is to hit stuff on the cliff in vision range of his viking. And if he is trying to accomplish that same purpose then why move half an inch in the first place? Terrans will tell you that they would rather leave tanks sieged if they are accomplishing the same purpose in their sieged state as they would if they moved them a bit. Any time you move tanks without scanning you are taking a risk. In this case that risk profited him nothing for the quick resiege that just put him in the same hit range of the cliff and didn't help him in slowly moving toward the ramp, as the tanks were out of position of the ramp.
And the key to knowing that he saw the army was coming up there (the key to the sudden resiege) is the little swipe of FOW you put in Exhibit B and B2. That wasn't an accidental screen scroll, there weren't any accidental screen scrolls into the FOW in any of the games I've reviewed. It seemed very very intentional because he saw something there that he shouldn't be able to. Your explanation of the B and B2 screenshots doesn't make much sense....while I agree you'd want to move your marines first to safety buffer if he comes down the ramp, and I agree you'd want to look to judge where you should move them to so they won't be hit from above on the cliff, it doesn't explain why he swiped his view so far down into the base and not just along the cliff edge. He moved directly over the army during that swipe, his view went below the missile turret. It doesn't make sense.
I understand your viewpoint and you have presented it perfectly logically *LABELED SCREENSHOTS FTW* so I respect your opinion on this one. It's a tough one to call because of what you've presented, but the evidence is still enough to convince me that in this particular situation something either very lucky or very fishy happened. And this is just one out of many many other instances.
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On June 06 2012 13:49 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless? LOL. Have you SEEN the replays or even the VOD of the analysis? It's pretty obvious to any player who is actually competent enough at the game. Pretty much all Terran players who aren't retarded know that the choices made, in cursor and army movement and in the decision making, were just NOT natural. Stop trying to be the one, the neo, etc. Actually watch those games if you are informed enough and make your own decisions on whether he was innocent or guilty, rather than simply criticizing everyone for taking active steps to discourage cheating. You can't stop 100 cheaters. You can scare 99 of them shitless by showing what you do to the 100th.
I watched the anaylsis... didn't really convince me. If he was map hacking... why did he lose. I feel like that's the prevailing question. He LOST in a series where REAL MONEY was on the line. If he was hacking he would've won.
Also in the analysis they went in with the assumption that he was hacking. Let me say this again, because I said it earlier in the thread, if you're going to prove something you can't start with what you're assuming is true. I recall them saying multiple times... 'see he's maphacking, it's very obvious by... ___'. Not this was somewhat suspicious, but maphacking is not the only reason. They never made any point to show any part of the game where he was 'playing legit' only where he 'might have been hacking'. And you're telling me with the awesome quality of replays that nothing gets fucked up when you're watching it? No texture glitches while playing or anything? The only conclusive evidence would be from a VOD of some sort.
And you can't stop cheaters? Trust me, if they were trying hard enough they could stop them. Blizzard just doesn't give a shit.
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Canada109 Posts
This is coming from a guy who used to play sc2 competitively and have played against Spades lots of times on Ladder plus various online tournaments. I never liked the guy for his manners and attitude towards me, but he hasnt given me a reason to believe that he hacks when he was playing against me. Ive played him plenty of times on Playhem/Zotac tournaments and can safely say that he wasnt cheating. Of course this means very little but from what I have seen so far, with a benefit of doubt, I wouldnt just label him as a hacker without a conclusive proof. This will/has ruined his career(even though I dont know if he has a great reputation in the first place) and should everyone just jump on the witch hunt bandwagon?(even with pros analyzing replays and such which can be biased and not reliable 100% of the time) I really think maybe officials need to step in and resolve this problem more professionally to set an example in the community. Lets not be so hot headed!
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On June 06 2012 13:56 shabinka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:49 Gamegene wrote:On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless? LOL. Have you SEEN the replays or even the VOD of the analysis? It's pretty obvious to any player who is actually competent enough at the game. Pretty much all Terran players who aren't retarded know that the choices made, in cursor and army movement and in the decision making, were just NOT natural. Stop trying to be the one, the neo, etc. Actually watch those games if you are informed enough and make your own decisions on whether he was innocent or guilty, rather than simply criticizing everyone for taking active steps to discourage cheating. You can't stop 100 cheaters. You can scare 99 of them shitless by showing what you do to the 100th. I watched the anaylsis... didn't really convince me. If he was map hacking... why did he lose. I feel like that's the prevailing question. He LOST in a series where REAL MONEY was on the line. If he was hacking he would've won.
Oh god. LOL.
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Please, watch the replays, and go google 'starcraft 2 maphack' before commenting on whether you think this guy is guilty or not of maphacking.
If you are so ignorant to how maphacking works or how to detect it that you did not know about camera locking before this thread, you probably shouldn't be chiming about your opinion of Spades's guilt or innocence. Because you have no idea how current maphacks work, and therefore no idea how to even analyze the replay.
It would be more useful though, if we could get people experienced with the maphacks, or people who used to run hacks, like shepherds, etc, to comment on the replays, or maybe someone posted replays of known maphackers, so we could compare the play.
it's so obnoxious to hear so many people put their analysis on this (including catz or tt1 - sorry, but you guys are decent people who are too naive that dont even know how current mh works) when they don't even know how current maphacks work. You don't have to download the hack, you don't have to be a hacker, but fuck, it's pretty easy to learn how current maphacks work, and how to detect them.
I've never hacked in SC2, but I did in diablo 2 (it's not really a competitive game, and long story short but you basically needed an anti-hack to not get dropped anytime you joined a game back in 2008). I'm not going to mention the sites here, but there are some pretty standard blizzard hacking scene sites that tells you everything, that have been around for decades to 'serve' blizzard games, that I would imagine even non-hackers would know about...
There have been many incarnations of maphacks too. Current maphacks have camera locking as the OP says, where any time you look at fog of war your camera will appear to freeze when someone watches the replay (god ive seen so many people post 'is this guy hacking?' threads and then everyone says the guy didnt because they never looked through fow even though their camera was always frozen obviously), they have production tabs up like observer/replays has, they have a fully revealed minimap, automatic worker pairing and splits, as well as blink, burrow, and split micro (generally those are features only of private hacks though).
Someone who doesnt even know how current maphacks works, shouldn't be clamoring for Spade's innocence (or guilt, really) if you don't know anything.
That said, I really think Spades is guilty of maphacking. The camera freezing is obvious.
By the way, an easy way to tell someone is maphacking, is keep the APM tab up while swapping between the first person views of both players. This is best done in a replay where both players have similar average APM (yes I know blizz has bad APM, but they are both being applied to the same metric so it's consistent) - if the non-hacker is clearly spazzing out like anyone would at 80+ APM and constantly zooming about, moving in the fog of war, selecting tons of buildings, while the maphacker appears to be lazy, really slow, constantly has his camera not moving or selecting anything even though he's still registering APM (people while looking through fog tend to drop in APM, but not zero as they queue more units), then he's likely maphacking.
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On June 06 2012 13:56 shabinka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:49 Gamegene wrote:On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless? LOL. Have you SEEN the replays or even the VOD of the analysis? It's pretty obvious to any player who is actually competent enough at the game. Pretty much all Terran players who aren't retarded know that the choices made, in cursor and army movement and in the decision making, were just NOT natural. Stop trying to be the one, the neo, etc. Actually watch those games if you are informed enough and make your own decisions on whether he was innocent or guilty, rather than simply criticizing everyone for taking active steps to discourage cheating. You can't stop 100 cheaters. You can scare 99 of them shitless by showing what you do to the 100th. I watched the anaylsis... didn't really convince me. If he was map hacking... why did he lose. I feel like that's the prevailing question. He LOST in a series where REAL MONEY was on the line. If he was hacking he would've won. Also in the analysis they went in with the assumption that he was hacking. Let me say this again, because I said it earlier in the thread, if you're going to prove something you can't start with what you're assuming is true. I recall them saying multiple times... 'see he's maphacking, it's very obvious by... ___'. Not this was somewhat suspicious, but maphacking is not the only reason. They never made any point to show any part of the game where he was 'playing legit' only where he 'might have been hacking'. And you're telling me with the awesome quality of replays that nothing gets fucked up when you're watching it? No texture glitches while playing or anything? The only conclusive evidence would be from a VOD of some sort. And you can't stop cheaters? Trust me, if they were trying hard enough they could stop them. Blizzard just doesn't give a shit.
Are you serious? Just because someone map hacks doesn't mean they are good enough or understand the game enough to win. I will not take any sides here, but your argument that he wasn't map hacking because he lost doesn't mean anything. And it actually is really hard to stop cheaters, even if you solve one thing, they will find a way around it. In my opinion, there is no way to stop them completely. But I will say that Blizzard could try harder, but it just is not on top of their priority list.
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On June 06 2012 13:43 Mallard86 wrote:
Has the SC2 community sunk this far? Its pretty pathetic to call out a pro player with such flimsy evidence. Its even more pathetic for the community to go on such a witchhunt and its just absolutely disgusting to have other pro players come out against this guy with baseless accusations and no evidence. If the community continues in this direction I do not doubt that the end of SC2 as an esport is near.
It's been this way since Brood War, if you knew anything about Spade's last accusation you would know this.
If anything the community's calmed down then, from the Crusades to an angry mob.
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On June 06 2012 13:56 shabinka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:49 Gamegene wrote:On June 06 2012 13:44 shabinka wrote:
What's going to happen when it shown that Spades is not a hacker? What will CatZ, Illu, etc do when their 2 hour analysis is proven to be useless? LOL. Have you SEEN the replays or even the VOD of the analysis? It's pretty obvious to any player who is actually competent enough at the game. Pretty much all Terran players who aren't retarded know that the choices made, in cursor and army movement and in the decision making, were just NOT natural. Stop trying to be the one, the neo, etc. Actually watch those games if you are informed enough and make your own decisions on whether he was innocent or guilty, rather than simply criticizing everyone for taking active steps to discourage cheating. You can't stop 100 cheaters. You can scare 99 of them shitless by showing what you do to the 100th. I watched the anaylsis... didn't really convince me. If he was map hacking... why did he lose. I feel like that's the prevailing question. He LOST in a series where REAL MONEY was on the line. If he was hacking he would've won. Also in the analysis they went in with the assumption that he was hacking. Let me say this again, because I said it earlier in the thread, if you're going to prove something you can't start with what you're assuming is true. I recall them saying multiple times... 'see he's maphacking, it's very obvious by... ___'. Not this was somewhat suspicious, but maphacking is not the only reason. They never made any point to show any part of the game where he was 'playing legit' only where he 'might have been hacking'. And you're telling me with the awesome quality of replays that nothing gets fucked up when you're watching it? No texture glitches while playing or anything? The only conclusive evidence would be from a VOD of some sort. And you can't stop cheaters? Trust me, if they were trying hard enough they could stop them. Blizzard just doesn't give a shit.
Some of their language was poor choice of words, but overall I think they handled it pretty well and gave their own opinions in a pretty objective manner. Most of the time after they said "You know how we know he is hacking? Watch" They would say aftewards "Yeah, that just doesn't seem right, something is really fishy/suspicious about that". You're right, they already had their minds made up before they showed their viewers and TT1....but that was because they had already reviewed all the games they brought up for a while before that. They didn't make their mind up that he was a hacker based on hearsay and conjecture, they went through and looked at the items that were fishy. You make it sound as if they accused him outright and then decided to try to prove it by analyzing the questionable play after they made that decision.
EDIT: It is very poor logic to say that because he hacks he should win, and that losses somehow help prove he is clean. He is more likely to win by using unfair advantages in game knowledge, but it's hard to guarantee a win in a game as fast paced as SC2 even with hacks. Even if you see everything at all times, it's still hard to multitask, and still hard to play perfectly without mistakes.
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